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How To Preach Salvation

How do you get a person to become a Christian?

Join Our Free Chat and Take The Salvation Bible Quiz
 ---Jennifer on 12/31/09
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//Lee, I see you want to have the last word here.

Yes, we agree that the Word of God should be our last word. However, there are those who would let their likes & dislikes cloud what the Word would tell us.

Mt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


kathr4453 //John 5:29 And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Are you one of these Lee?

I believe that there is enough evidence to convict me of following Christ and in being in compliance to His word.

You need to watch out over your own relationship with the Lord, if you have one.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


Lee, I see you want th have the last word here.

Let's let scripture have theh last word!! God Bless!

John 5:29
And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Are you one of these Lee?

Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/10


Thank you kathr4453 for your very good insight into the Scripture.

However, while God abhors evil, He does use it for His glory whenever that is possible as in the case of Joseph being sold by his brothers into Egypt, which was God's plan for His people.
---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
---Lee1538 on 1/10/10

Lee, MarkV, Yes, Joseph is a TYPE of Christ, rejected by his own. However again, Joseph, along with his brethren were of the household of God. And that certainly for a purpose, as was told Joseph in a dream when he was only a Child.

God does not ordain RAPE and child molestation. Not even for His Glory. Let's be clear on these issues. It goes totally against God's nature.

God works all things together for good to those who Love Him, who have been called according to HIS PURPOSE. However nowhere does it say God works ALL evil together for good!
---kathr4453 on 1/11/10




kathr4453//I don't believe evil brings God Glory,...

Is it not how you view evil?

The brothers of Joseph committed a truly evil deed by selling their brother into slavery in Egypt but this was the will of God.

Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
---Lee1538 on 1/10/10


Lee1538


I believe so often the innocent suffer, yes, Christians too at the hands of the disobedient sinner. I believe there were Christians who died on 9/11.

What the saved have that the unsaved do not is ETERNAL life, HOPE, and so much more IN CHRIST. So whether we live or die, we will always be with the Lord and secure in the Lord. THIS is the message we need to tell the lost.

I don't believe evil brings God Glory, it's OUR testimony of FAITH and His faithfulness in horrible times and our witness in these times that bring Glory to God!
---kathr4453 on 1/9/10


Kathr #2. concerning the people God either killed Himself or those He ordered killed, and about the love of God towards those people? Lets say that it was certainly appalling that any people would be put to the sword, but the reason is that God has ordained all the details of what is going to happen, And He saw that if those countries survived they would in time hinder His decrees that Christ would come through the nation of Israel. Also when you stop to think about the matter, and that is the iniquity of any people would become so full, their rebellion against God so strong and so universal, their moral corruption and debasement so utter and so pervisive, it was just to make such treatment absolutely necessary in the interest of humanity.
---MarkV. on 1/9/10


Kathr, here's the mistake I use to make and many make now. They read a passage and because of prior believes they don't accept the passage now reading as Truth. We say, it cannot be. While it is right in front of them they will not accept it as Truth. Jack B was using the point of the love of God. He has no idea the love of God. That is why I made the point of all the people that were killed by God. yet the New Testament says, God loves the world, God loves all men. It even says we are to do good to all men. No matter what we do in our lives God still loves what we are as the expression of His creation. All men are made in the image of God. What God created He adores. Though the image of God is marred is none the less made in the image of God.
---MarkV. on 1/9/10


kathr4453 //However as concerning those outside of Christ, God did not and does not DIRECT SIN in anyone's life. He did not direct 9/11. God is not a murderer! Men are drawn away by their own lusts and desires. James says...DON'T blame God!

Totally agree that God does not ordain sin in any of His creatures. BUT He does permit it in the lives of the disobedient and often uses it for His own glory.

Those that are in Christ will receive grace, while all others will receive only justice based on what they have done.

---Lee1538 on 1/8/10




MarkV, Happy New Year to you too! I also hope we can discuss things as well.

What I believe is this. That free will is given to man both before and after the fall.

If one in a perfect sinless state chose to disobey, one in a fallen state can chose to obey.

We lost that perfect fellowship with God, but we didn't lose free will or our conscience or the option to CHOOSE.

Fellowship and free will are two entirely differnt things. Yet you seem to be saying they are identical.


God said..
Both before and after the Fall, God said the same thing Choose life and Live!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


//I cannot locate the verse but it says somewhere in the Bible that God knows all the days of our lives beforehand.// - Lee1538

Seriously, Lee? The entire Bible is a book of prophecy. Of course God knows the future days of our lives. (Genesis 16:12)

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Before the argument takes place, Jeremiah was a Jew, as was Paul. Both separated from mother's womb.(Galatians 1:15)
---JackB on 1/8/10


Kathr, happy new year, I hope this year you and I can get along better. You seem to have made a big change, and I am glad for you.
I say this. Free will is mentioned only once in Scripture.
I did say that Adam and Eve had free will, only because they had no fallen nature. I could have called it, no desire to sin, because they had no sin nature like all descendants of Adam now have. That is why their will is not free. They are in bondage to sin. They have a choice, but like Lee said, their choices are controlled by their desires and motives, and can never go against the Sovereignty of God. Like Lee mentioned, they are free to rolm around the ship, but God is in control of the ship.
---MarkV. on 1/8/10


Lee1538 ,I agree this pertains to those IN CHRIST. He's our Captain. Nothing can come in our life unless God allows Testing etc. He doesn't take our test. Some of us have to take the same test over and over. (The no child left behind program Ha!)

However as concerning those outside of Christ, God did not and does not DIRECT SIN in anyone's life. He did not direct 9/11. God is not a murderer! Men are drawn away by their own lusts and desires. James says...DON'T blame God!

Sin is the absence of God, and those outside of Christ are in the absence of God!

Now man, saved or lost does not have a free will to translate himself to the moon and back. If that is what some mean by free will. Or can they turn themselves into a cow.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


kathr4453 //God gave me a BRAIN, and a Conscience.

Good to know!!! LOL

However, God in His sovereign does controls history and that would also be for individuals whom He has chosen to do His will.

As to free will, we have that certainly, but it is bounded by the sovereignty of God permitting Him to rule or overrule what we may wish to do.

The debate on free will is really an ancient one since even Martin Luther wrote a book on this subject. While there are scripture that support either view, I hold that we are like passengers on a cruise ship. While we can do our thing while on board, it is the captain that directs the course of the ship.
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10


I cannot locate the verse but it says somewhere in the Bible that God knows all the days of our lives beforehand.

---Lee1538 on 1/8/10

Well of coarse God Knows everything from beginning to end. But does He know it the same as someone who wrote a screen play, hired actors and determines who plays each part, what EXACTLY each one will say. Even in those situations, the director has the option to leave in or take out the bloopers! ( Ha!)

We're not claymations! God gave me a BRAIN, and a Conscience. He created me after His Image. WOW!!! Is God a ROBOT TOO? A robot may malfunction, but certainly has no conscience or can it think for itself!

---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


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kathr4453 //So for Calvinists and such to take scripture concerning SERVICE are you now saying service SAVES YOU?

Not at all, what I am saying (and I believe scripture also says this), that in the sovereignty of God He has chosen both nations and individuals for whatever would suit His glory. And that before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I cannot locate the verse but it says somewhere in the Bible that God knows all the days of our lives beforehand.

---Lee1538 on 1/8/10


MarkV, where are your passages that absolutely state, MAN HAS NO FREE WILL!

You said Adam/Eve were given FREE WILL and they took that and SINNED. Then you said that after sin, God took away free will???? I asked You to provide scripture for that. I still haven't gotten your answer.

If you have no free will MarkV, WHY DO YOU STILL SIN and make excuses for it? God's will is that none of us sin correct. So according to your interpretation of God's sovereign will YOU should be SINLESS. Are you?.

Every warning in scripture concerns our obedience. Can one actually OBEY without given a free will to OBEY, or are you a ROBOT that 100% of the time OBEYS? You say you don't. WHO then is to blame. YOU ARE!FREE WILL!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


I woke up this morning late so that I could give enough time so that everyone could have time to put all their answers down and nothing. I am still waiting for some biblical answers to my questions. Where is "Free will"? everyone talks about it, hundreds of times, even fight for it, you should have one passage. To have "free" with no motive or desire, "will." I cannot wait to read the passages I must have missed. Or is it that your theology does not fit what God has to say? Why not remove the passages that speak about God, from your Bibles and throw them away. What God says mean's nothing, what man thinks means everything. Why not just give man the Throne. This way you don't have to give answers, he is god.
---MarkV. on 1/8/10


Lee, So often Romans 9-11 is taken out of context to somehow PROVE election, without free will.

Israel (the Nation) mine Elect, was God's vessel upon earth to Glorify Him and be a light to the nations. However ISRAEL the Nation WAS NOT SAVED as we can see were they!

So for Calvinists and such to take scripture concerning SERVICE are you now saying service SAVES YOU? Please re-read your answer to my post!

Service does not SAVE you.

And not all are vessels of Honor in God's House. Some are saved just by the skin of their teeth! However saved they are.

Timothy was CALLED to be a Vessel of Honor, and these were Paul's instructions to him. Paul was not instructing Timothy on how to be saved or sanctified!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


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Kathr4453 --

2 Tim. 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, (OUR RESPONSIBILITY) he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified,(NOT JUSTIFICATION HERE) and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Goes back to my statement that if we are moldable, then God can make us into vessels unto honor.

But many will not listen to God so what will He do with them save use them for His own glory as He did with Pharaoh of Egypt, or selecting Jacob over Esau, and Isaac over Ishmael? And after He is finished with them, throw them away like dirty rags.

Sanctification follows on the heels of Justification for those who have become part of the household of God.
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10


Lee,

2 Timothy 2:19-21

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, (OUR RESPONSIBILITY) he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified,(NOT JUSTIFICATION HERE) and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

In Romans 9 :Earthly ISRAEL, = SERVICE
Timothy,: scripture is talking about SERVICE TOO NOT SALVATION!

Earthly Israel was formed out of clay! NOT THE CHURCH!!

Isaiah 29:16

Paul never taught the CHURCH was made out of CLAY..we are Christ's BODY!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


A favorite verse of the Calvinist is -

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

But does God draw to himself everyone or just those who are predestined from the foundation of the world? Eph. 1:14.

Going back to the story of the Potter & the clay (Romans 9), God can make whatever is His good pleasure for His own glorification - some to honored use, some to dishonorable use.

I believe much depends upon us being moldable in His hands.

While the believer receives grace, all others will receive justice.



---Lee1538 on 1/7/10


I heard many claim free will and not one of you has given a passage where God states that man has "free will" to receive Christ. In fact Free will is mentioned one time and never for salvation. You claim God cannot interfer in the works of man, where is that found? None of you have been able to describe the love of God when He ordered the death of man women and children even animals. Didn't God choose Israel over others? Didn't the others die because God ordered the Israelites to kill them. What about the children? How much free will did those people have? Why don't any of you answer the questions? You claim so many things and can answer nothing because all it is is your opinions.
---MarkV. on 1/7/10


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Mark, which is it now? Come on.

Predestined to sin or God didnt make them sin?

"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
This isnt in question.

Does man stay Gods hand, Mark? Or does Gods mercy and grace which are rooted in his LOVE for us stay his hand? How exactly is God being 'controlled' by man? Because He loves us? Is that his weakness?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. --- 2 Peter 3:9
---JackB on 1/7/10


//You are not seeing someOne who is Omnipotent, but someOne who is impotent, who fails time and time again. Who cannot function without man's permission. You speak of His love and forget all the people He ordered killed or that He Himself put to death. I would say in the millions. Is that the same God you are descripting? I think you forget that the end will be as He so ordained it to be.// - MarkV

Yep - same God
What should a man expect from God other than his wrath if he doesnt want his love?

We are in the days of grace. Gods hold back his wrath which is "the end" (and the end will not be deterred) so that we have a chance to hide ourselves in Christ.
---JackB on 1/7/10


You can't GET a person to become a Christian. How I wish it were that easy.

Keeping anything won't make you a Christian.

Reading commentaries won't make you a Christian.

Following someone's teaching won't make anyone a Christian.

Head knowledge won't make you a Christian.

However, when you show someone the LAW that reveals SIN, and then show them Christ who alone came to FORGIVE and deliver from SIN, you have shared the Gospel that alone SAVES.

A Christian is someone who has placed their faith in the PROMISE that God said, whosoever believes Jesus Died and Rose again FOR YOUR SIN (1 Cor 15:1-4) and they PERSONALLY receive the GIFT of Jesus Christ, by faith, are then saved By Grace(Christ work ALONE)!
---kathr4453 on 1/7/10


Paul9594- the truth is on our side not yours.

Romans 8:3-4 For God has done what the law (torah), weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law (torah) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Gal.5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the (torah)law.

Gal.3:11-12 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the (torah)law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith' But the (torah) law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.'
---Lee1538 on 1/7/10


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Paul9594 //This is the FOUNDATION of His argument, in Galatians, SPEAKING against salvation by keeping the Law!

Exactly and if you view the rest of the letters written by the Apostle Paul you would see that the righteous live by faith, not by Torah law. Romans 1:17

Whereas you believe one must continue to observe the Torah law and walk by faith as well, you really cannot have it both ways as you cannot mix grace with law.

Paul even stated he was not under any law save the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2, 1 Cor. 9:21.

Finally, Neither Paul nor his successors taught Torah law to Gentile converts.
---Lee1538 on 1/7/10


Paul

Have you not read in the Bible that the apostles ask people if they chose to be under the law again instead of grace because they were trying to save themselves by obedience to it?

Gods Law is good. We are evil. The Law condemns us. It brings a curse. We can't become righteous again by living up to Gods standards. We've blown it. Don't you not understand that?

The 10 commandments were given to show us how messed up we are. He sent us the law to prove to us that we are condemned. Not one single man has ever followed it perfectly as the law requires. Except for Christ.

Salvation comes through faith in Jesus who gave his life for us that we could live. He took our sin upon himself and our punishment.
---JackB on 1/7/10


Paul I think you're assuming that we dont think the law is important. It is. But it doesnt save anyone from hell.

Before Christ our failure at following the law perfectly put us under a curse.

After Christ we still pray and try to follow Gods laws but when we fail we receive forgiveness.

God gave us what we needed. Mercy and grace.
Otherwise we would still be doomed.

Even Paul said he hadnt reached perfection but he continued to press on to try to attain it.

If the law cant save anyone then we as Christians cant judge a person by how well they follow it. Each Christian has strengths and weaknesses. Thats the way God wants it so we grow together as the family of God, depending on one another.
---JackB on 1/7/10


Jack B, I have my heart wide open. You need to open your mind to the understanding of who God is. Your god is weak and controlled by man. My God is Supreme and does as He will's, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
In God's plan He didn't make Lucifer sin, He knew He would and placed all necessary conditions for his sin. In God's plan, He didn't make Adam sin, He knew he would and made all the necessary conditions for that also. All written in the Bible. He is unrivalled in majesty, unlimited in power, unaffected by anything outside Himself. Had God wished, He could have placed Adam upon an unconditional footing, but didn't.
---MarkV. on 1/7/10


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Jack B, #2: I want to make something clear. I am not saying you are not saved or that you have another God, but am saying is, your desception of Him. You are not seeing someOne who is Omnipotent, but someOne who is impotent, who fails time and time again. Who cannot function without man's permission. You speak of His love and forget all the people He ordered killed or that He Himself put to death. I would say in the millions. Is that the same God you are descripting? I think you forget that the end will be as He so ordained it to be. The devil will be where God puts him, the wicked will be with him, and everyone else will be in heaven, with no more free will to do good or evil since there will be no more evil or sin.
---MarkV. on 1/7/10


Paul9594 - While we teach others everything found in the Bible and that includes the fact that the law reveals what sin is, once that is accomplished and the person comes to faith in Christ, the Word states that the law is not longer needed.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian...

It has been rather obvious to us that you truly believe in a works salvation, you have no knowledge of Christ or what He did for us on the Cross for our salvation.

The Torah law is your savior not Jesus.
---Lee1538 on 1/7/10


Lee1538, JackB, MarkV:

THE SCHOOL MASTER tutors you to become a pastor, even with books. Training is over, a church with members for you to pastor arrives. Now U APPLY what the SCHOOL MASTER taught you, right?

Or do you throw it all out the window? Not !!!

In the same way, the Law was our tutor to teach us about Christ AND salvation plan. Christ has arrived, training is over!!!
APPLY WHAT THE Law taught you.
YOU CANT? WHY?, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE LAW? Oh oh!! Then Hear Matthew 7:20-23?

Your schools didnt teach you this either? Gee, what kind of school did you go to anti-Christ?
Time to keep His commandments begin with 10 with faith in Christ, impossible to do without Christ!
---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


lee1538:

///Both Jesus & audience being Jewish were under the law of the Old Mosaic covenant...///

Why don't you throw away all Gospels with message of Salvation, they were preached to the Jew?

In your mind:

YOUR Christ came to deliver truth through commentaries,forgot to tell us this.

YOUR Christ :

forgot to tell us the different Gospel 4 Gentiles.

forgot to tell us about the role of the Law for the Gentile so we could go back and forth from differents commenteries opionions, ah truths, sorry.

With His memory, your Christ might forget to SAVE you?

I'd rather believe the Christ of the Bible not the Christ of the commentaries!!

Commentaries our new Authority?

---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


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Lee1538:

Begin with the foundation of Paul's argument!!

Hear, volatile language recorded, in only this epistle!!

Galatians 3:1-3
You FOOLISH Galatians! Who has BEWITCHED you? Before your very eyes, Yshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so FOOLISH?

Portrayed crucified Christ gone!! They are now just into the Law!!
This is the FOUNDATION of His argument, in Galatians, SPEAKING against salvation by keeping the Law!
Obviously your school didnt teach you this!!
Law itself remains Holy Just and Good Rom. 7:12!
---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


Matthew 22:39-40 And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments the whole law HANGETH, and the prophets.

Both Jesus & his audience being Jewish were under the law of the Old Mosaic covenant and Jesus thereby called them to obedience to it.

If some man in the audience had asked Jesus if he should be circumcised, undoubtedly Jesus would have told him to obey that law.

While Jesus was under the Old Covenant law, are we to be also? The answer is found in -

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


JackB:

U posted:
///What is the holy commandment? You know what it is (1 John 3:23).///

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he (Christ) gave us commandment.

So let's hear a bit more from Christ's lips:

Matthew 22:39
And a second like [unto it] is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments the whole law HANGETH, and the prophets.


JACK, Christ handged, connected, linked the Law and the Prophets with loving your neighbor!!

Have you unhinged the Law and the Prophets from the second GREATESt commandment?
---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


//Jack B, the answer to your question is that they were predestined to sin. A plan is a plan.// - MarkV (speaking about Adam and Eve)

I think that says it all. Maybe God was behind Lucifers fall as well. Maybe He enjoys forcing His creation to sin (by His good pleasure of course) so He can punish them with eternal fire.

Does this sound like LOVE to you, Mark. Open your heart, man

Your beliefs are cultist. And as ALL cults do you have stripped God His love for others.

If you do something good for a person to get their praise for it, then its not done out of love. Its done out of selfishness.

I think maybe you need to read 1 Cor 13 again so you know what REAL love is.
---JackB on 1/6/10


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Paul9594 //When will u believe the BIBLICAL Hebrew word showing Laws In Genesis 26:5 is of the word torah?

Will you admit that the Biblical word for law in Galatians is also the word Torah?

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law (Torah) ARE UNDER A CURSE, for it is written, Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them. Now it is evident that NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED before God by the law(torah), for The righteous shall live by faith.

As you should be able to see, you really have a problem.

As to commentaries are you afraid of them, as the teachers God has called into that ministry, destroy your arguments?
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


Paul9594 - we would all love to see what kind of twist you use in the following scripture to interpret that we are still under the (Torah) law.

Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law (torah), shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law (torah) was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (torah).

I ask you this since this seems to be at the crux of our differences.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


Lee1538:

Commentary on Gen. 26:5 is completely off!!!!

Will u UNDERSTAND the BIBLICAL Hebrew word showing "Laws" in Genesis 26:5 is of the word "torah"?
When will u STOP believing commentaries when they dont align with our Fathers "HEBREW" words??

Good fruit is required of CHRISTIANS on judgment day, NOT JUST MIGHTY WORKS!!! Matthew 7:20-23
Part of GOOD fruit = Doing Father's will, which is to obey him, keep His commandments in the Spirit of love: Christ!! NOT applying the Law like the Pharisees.

Will u honestly answer ONE question, WITHOUT commentaries?

Are true sons and daughters free from producing WHOLE fruit: FAITH (Gen. 15:6) + OBEDIENCE (Gen. 26:5) LIKE ABRHAHAM?
---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


//God never approves of sin,however, we do have the free will to obey or disobey.// - Lee 1538

My apologies to you, Lee. I was under the impression that you believed as MarkV does.

Mark,

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

If you believe God pleads with us to turn because of his love for us but then keeps us from doing so, then your god is a deceiver.

Denying our free will is NOT the way to find security in Christ. You get that by trusting in Gods promises.
---JackB on 1/6/10


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Jack B #2: the passage you gave does not say, He also wishes that no one sin. yet they do. But here is what pleases God,
"My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:10). He spoke this words and many more as, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhaitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
That means no one Jack, not even man. He is Supreme always. He never stops been Supreme. Divine Sovereignty means that God is God in fact, as well as name, that he is on the Throne of the Universe, directing all things, working all things "after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11.
---MarkV. on 1/6/10


Jack B, you believe one passage but not the others. You claim that God wants everyone to come to Christ, but He cannot do what He wants because people will not let Him. You say,
"My debate isnt that the God opens our heart to the truth of Christ, its that every scripture that makes it plainly clear that God wishes ALL men to be saved is disputed because it doesnt fit the Calvanist religion"
You blame Calvinism when you should know that God is Supreme always.
You say "your debate is not that God opens our heart to the Truth of Christ" If you believe that, then why doesn't He open the hearts of the rest so they can believe? If He decreed for everyone to be saved, everyone would be save.
---MarkV. on 1/6/10


Lee1538:

Your commentary on Gen. 26:5 is completely off!!!!

When will u believe the BIBLICAL Hebrew word showing Laws In Genesis 26:5 is of the word torah?

When will u STOP believing commentaries when they dont align with our Fathers words??

Good fruit is required of CHRISTIANS on judgment day, NOT JUST MIGHTY WORKS!!! Matthew 7:20-23

What is part of GOOD Fruit = Doing God will for us, which is to obey him, keep His commandments in Spirit of love, Christ!! NOT like applying the Law like the Pharisees.

Will u honestly answer ONE question, WITHOUT commentaries?

Are you true sons and daughters free from producing WHOLE Fruit FAITH (Gen. 15:6) AND OBEDIENCE (Gen. 26:5) LIKE ABRHAHAM?
---Paul9594 on 1/5/10


My debate isnt that the God opens our heart to the truth of Christ, its that every scripture that makes it plainly clear that God wishes ALL men to be saved is disputed because it doesnt fit the Calvanist religion.

I wish I knew how to do red text here...

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Is God a deceiver? Would He ask men to turn from their evil ways back to Him when He is actually stopping men from doing so?
---JackB on 1/6/10


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Eph. 1:13 (1599 Geneva Bible) In whom also ye have trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, even the Gospel of your salvation, wherein also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

There is no essential difference between the 1611 and 2009 from the older 1599 Bible.

In any case, each states that the believer is sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

And a seal is a symbol of ownership.

Thus our salvation is assured as the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our salvation.

2 Cor.1:21f And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


JackB -=//So sin is acceptable to God now?

There is no foot in my mouth. God never approves of sin,however, we do have the free will to obey or disobey.

Please do not read into my comments things that are not there. I thought by this time, you know where I stand on these issues.

And it may be to your advantage to stop trying to pick a fight with MarkV and simply discuss the various issues at hand in a mature manner.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


Do I really have to do this Mark? I know you're an intelligent man and can tell the difference between 1611 English and 2010 English

1611

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


2009

In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
---JackB on 1/5/10


MarkV:

John 17:17
SANCTIFY them through thy TRUTH: thy WORD is TRUTH.
Spirit(Ephesians1:13-14) DOES NOT LACK the POWER to enable believer to keep commandments beginning with TEN.

TRUE believer MATURES BECAUSE OF TRUE FAITH, connecting him to Christ's power, to do the least commandments. Each believer does this at their OWN pace.

What is the evidence of True faith? Walking after the Law of Righteousness, Gen. 26:5.
Christ righteousness IMPUTED TO HIM for commandments not done perfectly.
2Timo 3:5
(of many today) having a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.

Have u been taught the power of the Holy Spirit? Or do u say true sons can't keep commandments?
---Paul9594 on 1/5/10


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//... as long as your conduct is acceptable, but the overall direction of the ship is up to the capital of the ship. It is much the same with the Lord on this ship we call planet earth.//- Lee1538

Open mouth, insert foot.

So sin is acceptable to God now? Remember Adam and Eve and their free will. They sinned so apparently there was no sovereign will in effect. Unless of course you are claiming that God wanted them to sin. Are you?

I really hope for your sake that you dont believe God wills people into sinning against Him

1 Cor 13:5,6
(charity) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth
---JackB on 1/5/10


MarkV - very true that many have problems with the soverignity of God, I know I did.

Free will is ours however limited to the will of God.

It is much like being on a cruise ship out at sea.

You can move around, go to the various restaurants, the casino, movie theatres, use the swimming pools or saunas, firt with the women at the bars, etc. as long as your conduct is acceptable, but the overall direction of the ship is up to the capital of the ship.

It is much the same with the Lord on this ship we call planet earth.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


Jennifer, maybe my answer on 1/3/10 was not the best answer I could give, but it is the Truth and just maybe that puts the fear of God in Cory's heart if he fears the torments of hell and he will start searching.

Jack B, as I said before I love you as a brother in Christ, and maybe this subject of God's sovereignty bothers you alot but it is the Truth of Scripture. It is all over from the beginning in Genesis to the end of Revelation what God was doing in the past, today and what He will do tomorrow. I am sorry you disagree. As I said before, stand in line, so many believe as you do. As you will notice it's hard for man to give up what they feel they deserve, their free will. They don't want God to determine their fade, they want to.
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


Jack B, you took a sentence out of context to make your point. "In Him you also trusted" indicates they were saved already. "They trusted after they heard the word of Truth" Why? because they had faith already are they would have never trusted the Word. Faith in the Word comes from hearing. They cannot excerise faith until they hear the Word, then faith is exercised. When you are first brought to life, you haven't heard the Word yet. The Spirit comes to you at that point. It comes with a new heart, with understanding faith and all the components of salvation. Yet you have not heard the Gospel yet. God has prepared you for the Word, and when you hear it, you believes it with all of your heart
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


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Jack B, #2: Now look at verse 1:11 you will see how this came about. "....being predestined ( get this) according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will"
God is working all things in those who are predestined. That means everything. Now go to Ephesians 2:4-10, and you will see the order of those things. What is first, "God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (hear this) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace"
Spiritual life first. Then explains why and how. Thats before they hear the gospel and commit by faith. v.10..which God prepared beforehand" all the work of God.
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


JackB:

U ask:
Isnt it just possible that the first five books were named Torah much later on, because they contained a lot of "law"?///

My statement:
The word for (my) "laws" in genesis 26:5 in Hebrew is "OF" the word Torah!!

Torah means teachings, instructions it can be used to name the Torah itself, or to just mean teachings/instructions.

This IS why of Genesis 26.5 for the Hebrew word Laws, I didnt say, this is the word for Torah, for the book itself. BUT I said, "Laws" in Genesis 26.5 in Hebrew is "OF" the word Torah.


Jack, is the way u read my statements not paying attention, the way u read Scriptures?
---Paul9594 on 1/5/10


Mark, you're just being stubborn and are afraid to use the God-given common sense that you DO have. A child could read that verse (the rest of it) and know that the purpose of those verses is get to us to spread the gospel to a world that doesnt know anything about it. Noone can believe if they havent heard.

The rest of verse 14...

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Messenger....gospel.....belief.
---JackB on 1/5/10


Mark, you qouted once that when a man "is born of the Spirit he receives the ability to believe". I'd love to know where you got that from.

That is most certainly NOT written in the Bible. In fact the exact opposite (word for word) is written in Ephesians 1:13. We hear, we believe, THEN the receiving of the promised Spirit.

In Acts 8:9-23.
The people of Sumaria had "received the word of God" from Philip and were baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Spirit was "fallen upon none of them"

Simon (a Samarian sorcerer) believed, was baptised and followed Philip, but later tried to BUY the power of Holy Spirit with money.

More proof in Acts 19:1-6
---JackB on 1/5/10


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Many different ideas are represented here, by example, my lifestyle(friendship), personal testimony and on and on and on!!!

Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask the Lord in prayer to prepare the heart of those you witnessed to are those who you wish you could witnessed to, are those who you would like to witnessed to. If we have done this and we have gone a long way in the right direction.

We must remember first Corinthians 1:18 says,"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." So if you are not preaching to the lost your not exercising the power of God.


---mima on 1/5/10


Jack B, #2: It is a jaw dropping experience when a genuine believer realizes God woke him up from his sleep. You posted and interpretation of 2 Peter 2:20 in the blog "The mind of God" out of context and so wrong. The people Peter was talking about were false teachers explained in verse 1 not genuine believers. All through chapter 2 is about false teachers who deceive the weak with high sounding words that masqureade as scholarship or profound spiritual insight, and even as direct revelation of God. In spite of all the empty talk, false teachers entice others to their philosophies by appealing to people on the baser level, Seduction, rather than the winsomeness of Truth, in their ploy.
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


Jack B, #2: It is a jaw dropping experience when a genuine believer realizes God woke him up from his sleep. You posted and interpretation of 2 Peter 2:20 in the blog "The mind of God" out of context and so wrong. The people Peter was talking about were false teachers explained in verse 1 not genuine believers. All through chapter 2 is about false teachers who deceive the weak with high sounding words that masqureade as scholarship or profound spiritual insight, and even as direct revelation of God. In spite of all the empty talk, false teachers entice others to their philosophies by appealing to people on the baser level, Seduction, rather than the winsomeness of Truth, in their ploy.
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


Jack B, why would your jaw drop? Seems to me you put down the same thing only a little different when you said, Romans 10:14

"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"

They don't call because they do not believe. And if they don't believe, they are destine to hell.
Your jaw must be dropping every time you read the Soverignty of God. Did I not put Scripture down for you about those who are appointed to disobedience? 1 Peter 2:7,8. These were not appointed by God to disobedience Rather these were appointed to doom because of their disobedience and unbelief. Judgment on unbelief is as divinely appointed as salvation by faith.
---MarkV. on 1/5/10


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//Maybe you are one who is destine for hell, if that is the case you will never believe. // - MarkV

My jaw literally dropped when I read this.
---JackB on 1/5/10


Cory, Christians preach the gospel to you because they love you and because of that love they want you to be saved. They know that the gospel of Chirst brings salvation to the lost. Of course you hate someone coming to you and talking to you about Christ. That's how everyone who is lost feels. They don't need God in their lives they think. They are very happy where they are at. They do not see a hole in their hearts that only belongs to Christ. Maybe you are one who is destine for hell, if that is the case you will never believe. The Christian does not know who will be saved and who will not so they continue to preach because they love you. You just don't realize that. Listen to them for a few minutes, it will not hurt you, but can save you.
---MarkV. on 1/3/10


cory,might I be so bold as to ask why you are here?If as you say you are an athiest,and in your mind not in need of the gospel message,seems you are just wasting time here,atleast in your own mind,unless you yourself unknowingly maybe either want to believe,or want to cause division.Any precise of debate on God may make sense to you,but for the believer Gods existance is real,and not an issue open for analysis.
---tom2 on 1/3/10


Romans 10:14

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

We arent the Holy Spirit, but He lives IN us.
---JackB on 1/2/10


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listen, im an atheist and im not on here to start any arguments but i am here to ask if everyone here would please just leave people alone. i know you think that its your job to preach the word of god but its VERY annoying and infuriating when you have every christian in the world shoving christianity in your face.
its just like me coming up to you and shoving evolution in your face and saying that your going to be punished if you dont beleive in science. please dont be that annoying christian that everyone wants to go away.
---cory on 1/2/10


jennifer,we deliver the message about jesus,its the holy spirits job to convict.
---tom2 on 1/2/10


First be their friend. Tell them about Jesus, they'l read your actions about your Christian life.Ask them to go to God's Church and recieve His plan of salvation, not a man's religious organization. With his help the seed will grow.




---Sissy3396 on 1/1/10


By sharing the gospel with them. You can talk with them and let them know what Jesus has personally done for you, what Jesus means to you, and how Jesus helps you in your life: "For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how will they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how will they hear without a preacher? Therefore faith from hearing, and the hearing through a word of God." Romans 10:13,14,17.
---Eloy on 1/1/10


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YOU cannot get a person to become a Christian, Jennifer, because the name on your birth certificate is not "H. Ghost."

Nor can I.

If you think that you can convince people or argue people or otherwise fire the magic word bullet out of your mouth, you've got it totally wrong.
---Cluny on 1/1/10


Best way is to live by example.

They will ask you what makes you so different and then they'll be more likely to accept Christ when you explain it to them.

Faith cometh by hearing, but seeing sometimes is believing.

Christ even directed us to live holy lives so that men will see the Father in us and praise Him.
---JackB on 12/31/09


There are different methods talked about online. You could talk to someone that God leads you to talk to.
---amand6348 on 12/31/09


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