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Parable Of Matthew 20:1-16

The Parable of Matthew 20:1-16. Does this mean someone like Mick Jagger becomes a Christian will receive the same rewards as Paul and the Martyrs etc. After enjoying all the Fame, Glory, Fortunes of this world?

Moderator - If Jagger becomes a Christian, he would receive the same gift of salvation not other heavenly rewards.

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 ---PASTOR_JIM on 1/7/10
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Kathr, no matter how much I would have liked for you to have change it just didn't happen, at least not this new year. Do you not understand that before a word comes out of your mouth with venom, God already knows what you will say?
Don't you fear God?
My prayer:
"Satan realise Kahtr and let her go in the name of Jesus Christ. Stop your work in her and leave her in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen."
That is my prayer for you Kathr, because I still love you and want the best for you.
---MarkV. on 1/21/10


MarkV, WHEN God tries YOU with FIRE THEN you will understand. WHEN you go to God for WISDOM rather than Calvin's commentary THEN you will understand.

Here is another example of being a busy body in trying to bring JIM into what YOU call a disagreement between us. NO SUCH thing ever took place here.

I believe you are a WOMAN, a busy body going from blog to blog causing trouble, when no such trouble ever existed, because you LACK WISDOM!

How did I end my last Post?

Faith is an attitude. There's no POWER in Faith to PRODUCE anything. The Power is ALL GOD. He is able to do abundantly ABOVE all that I could possibly ask or think according to HIS POWER that works in me. Eph 3

YES! PLEASE MOVE ON!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/21/10


Kathr, We were talking about what you said that faith does not produce works. That was the topic. Nowhere did we speak of crowns or Steven falling on his face or even Job. I even said you had a valid point about the WOF who use faith as a force to get things. But just let it go. Forget it. You cannot stay in one topic with me. And I cannot follow you around to check every context of passages you give. I will move on.
---MarkV. on 1/20/10


MarkV, you are just NOT listening. We are not talking about SALVATION. JIM and I have not disagreed on one issue. SO again you are not listening MarkV.

Jim's only comment here was that all saved are heirs of Christ...I AGREE. But scripture never tells us all heirs receive the EXACT same REWARDS and CROWNS!!!

I can LOSE my crown but not my salvation, unless you believe one can LOSE their salvation:

LISTEN:

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.... Can an MAN take away my salvation? NO!

My faith AKA TRUST does not PRODUCE works. My faith/TRUST in GOD MANIFESTS the WORKS of Christ in me...sanctification leading to MATURITY..not salvation!
---kathr4453 on 1/20/10


Kathr, I was not arguing with you. I didn't argue one point. All I said was why do you throw many context to say one thing? Salvation is not of works, it is by Grace through faith. So if you know that, why are you arguing not only against me but you argued against Jim, who was right. You haven't done nothing wrong other then get upset when someone answers you.
---MarkV. on 1/20/10




MarkV, Crowns/REWARDS are spoken of in scripture. YOU're not REWARDED with Salvation if you endure persecution and suffering...that would then be a conditional salvation. Salvation is not a REWARD to begin with. It is a Gift!

At the Judgment seat of Christ YOU will be judged, not on your SIN, but your service.

Some will have their WORKS burned, and others receive rewards, however no saved loses their salvation.

NO MARKV it isn't complicated to those God HAS used James to minister to during trials and suffering.

Only those who have a text book understanding like yourself want to ARGUE issues they have NEVER experienced.

You don't get it because you've never been there! CALVIN will NEVER take you there!!
---kathr4453 on 1/20/10


Kathr, I don't know why you do that, but you went from a Crown, then rewards, then Steven, and then to Job why he fell on his face. You went all over the place that one cannot understand what you are saying or what context to use.
---MarkV. on 1/20/10

A overwhelming desire to shepherd/teach/preach(authority)/share overcomes her belief/understanding in scripture.

Now ole David was a Shepherd. Defended against a Bear and a Lion. Let's see what kind of shepherd we've got here when the Bear comes. But, there is a need of sheep first....
---Trav on 1/20/10


Kathr, I don't know why you do that, but you went from a Crown, then rewards, then Steven, and then to Job why he fell on his face. You went all over the place that one cannot understand what you are saying or what context to use. Why didn't you stay with James? It is not hard to understand what James is talking about. It is not complicated at all. The context in James has nothing whatsoever to do with Steven waiting ten days, or anyone receiving a Crown or someone getting rewards, and Job falling on his face. James was speaking about two faiths, "Living faith" that saves, and "Dead faith" that does not (1 John 3:7-10).
---MarkV. on 1/20/10


The word PERFECT here in James means MATURITY.

What does James say one will receive who endures? A Crown of Life, Crown of Righteousness. Paul even said he knew a crown was waiting for him.

This CROWN is not a crown of salvation. Why because we ARE saved..Period. We don't receive salvation AFTER we are tested and endure to the end..as so many believe. These are REWARDS to those who do endure.

Many Christians, although saved will lose their rewards, but NEVER lose their salvation.

So ,with Matthew 20, those who get saved 10 days before they die or the Lord Comes are surely saved...however, what they do in those 10 days, (Maybe that's how long Steven was saved before he died) will certainly be REWARDED for service.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/10


James begins with the truth ALL saved will go through trials and trib/suffering.

What does he tell us we are to do?
1. ASK for WISDOM
2. Accept these trials with humility.

All letters have a form. It begins with a thought, which is the OPENING. Then there is the BODY with the substance, and then an ending..which is the SUMMARY/conclusion.

James CONCLUDES with the suffering of JOB, how he endured through his trials of suffering with PATIENCE...we've all heard -- "The Patience of Job" correct.

What works did Job do through his ordeal? NONE! Job fell in the dirt face first and said I am a man of unclean lips..I spoke things too wonderful for me to understand....NOW I SEE and UNDERSTAND....MATURITY!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/19/10




Kathr, James 1:2-4 has to do with works that are produced by faith. Patience is a godly behavior. When it says "but let patience have its perfect work" it is talking about having everything necessary that you will need to live a godly life. You are complete. The natural human response to trails is not to rejoice, there fore the believer must make a conscience commitment to face them with joy. God many times brings trails to our lifes to increase the strength and quality of one's faith and to demonstrate its validity (vv 2-12). Every trail becomes a test of faith designed to strengthen: if the believer fails the test by wrongly responding, that test then becomes a temptation, or a solicitation to evil (vv.13-15).
---MarkV. on 1/19/10


Let's start with James 1 to explain James 2.

James 12My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations, 3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.( MATURITY!!!)

Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing instant in prayer,

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/10


Kathr, its no argument when things are discussed. What you are worried about is if you use works as a product of faith, we fall into the false concept of WOF teachers. Your concern is valid. But the fruits talked about in the Bible is, righteous behavior we do as genuine believers. In James 2:14-26 James continues his series of tests by which his readers can evaluate whether their faith is living or dead. This passage contains the composite test-the one test that pulls the others together: the test of works, or righteous behavior that obey's God's Word and manifests a godly nature (1:22-25). James point is not that a person is saved by works for he already strongly asserted that salvation is a gracious gift from God 1:17,18.
---MarkV. on 1/19/10


MarkV, JIM, not wanting to get in an argument here, I still say our faith does not PRODUCE works. I can't even find a scripture that tells me so.

Maybe it's how I see the work PRODUCE. My faith is in someone else who does the PRODUCEING. My faith may produce FRUIT, but again it's the Fruit of the Spirit. MY SPIRIT doesn't produce anything. The Spirit of the Life of Christ in me DOES!

Abraham's faith did not produce Isaac. Again Abraham's faith was in GOD to produce Isaac.


WOF believes THEIR FAITH is what produces, and put the emphasis on the power of faith to produce. Our FAITH manifests itself in the Works of CHRIST in us.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/10


kathr...you said: My works do not produce faith. My faith does not produce works either.
Interesting...........
---JIM on 1/14/10

She finally said something that I agree with.
The deep desire is there, the faith is there....the overwhelming urge to preach and teach the unknown, is the hindrance.
---Trav on 1/18/10


MarkV...i agree...Thanks brother.
---JIM on 1/18/10


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Jim, you and Kathr are saying the same thing. The only mistake I think Kathr made was when she said that her faith does not produce works, and you responded to that. But I believe Kathr and you are really saying the same thing which is very true. Saving faith does produce good works. But works never producing faith. Saving faith is from God that comes through hearing the Word of God and not all can spiritually hear or see. The passages that Exzucuh gave are speaking of obedience and all genuine Christians are obedient to God, not perfect obedient because no one is perfect. They are legitimate children who always get chastening. All who think they are sinless are illegitimate and not sons of God.
---MarkV. on 1/18/10


kathr4453 on 1/14/10
Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

If you do not live like you are the Body of Christ by faith, you are not discering the Lord's body.
---exzucuh on 1/14/10


kathr...you are a fine sister in Christ.
---JIM on 1/14/10
Well, thank you brother JIM!!

I believe scripture teaches us everything we need to know about faith after we are saved. Joseph's life was a great revelation to me. God gave him a dream, I'm sure he didn't understand but believed anyway. All his life everything seemed to work against what God spoke to him. The greatest glory we can give God in our life is Waiting on God. That way, we can't take ANY credit at all for the outcome. God brought to pass what ever circumstances to place Joseph where God wanted Him. GOD exalted Joseph in God's timing for God's Purpose.

Joseph walked by faith not by site.

EX, maybe we're talking about totally different issues.
---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


kathr...you are a fine sister in Christ.
---JIM on 1/14/10


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---kathr4453 on 1/14/10 so you think the red sea would have parted if Aaron had not obeyed God to hold out his rod in faith like Moses told him.

---exzucuh on 1/14/10

EX, we may never know the answer to that one. Would Isaac not be born if Abraham didn't believe? I believe in spite of Abraham,, Isaac would have been born. God TOLD Abraham what God's plans were from the foundation of the world!

However on the other issue, we do know that they were told what would happen to those who did not put blood on the doorpost!
---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


Jim, I know what you are saying..

Do my words contradict anything else I have've said ?

IF God through Jesus ...and we KNOW He said: He was conforming us to the Image of Jesus Christ, and Paul states that we are being conformed to his death, Phil 3...and Peter tells me THROUGH FAITH, we are partakers of His divine nature through His great and PRECIOUS PROMISES, and that the fellowship of His sufferings IS WHAT produces that outcome 1st Peter 4.. you know what...I BELIEVE THAT!!!

Now, my believing it isn't making it happen...what happens is...BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT,I can accept it, surrender to everything God brings in my life, even unto death!

THIS is MY obedience of Faith AKA WORKS of faith!
---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


---kathr4453 on 1/14/10 so you think the red sea would have parted if Aaron had not obeyed God to hold out his rod in faith like Moses told him.

And I guess you think that if the Israelite's had not obeyed Moses to put the blood on the Door posts. they could have told the death angel they just would believe the blood would save them, that he would pass over them.

---exzucuh on 1/14/10


So you say James is Lying. And Jesus was wrong for forgiving them their sins because they had faith to knock a whole in the roof and let the sick man down to Jesus.

You can contradict Gods word because you believe something different than what it says?
Maybe you should write your own Bible for us all to believe you and Not Jesus.
---exzucuh on 1/14

ex, so what are you saying, their works were knocking a whole in the roof? OR believing Jesus was God who could heal?

Did Moses part the Red sea himself? or did God?
---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


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kathr...i never said works produce faith.
You seem to be oblivious to what i'm saying.
I will let it go at that.
---JIM on 1/14/10


Jim, If you disagree, please give me some examples how your works produce faith? Faith isn't PRODUCED to begin with. Faith is simply BELIEVING GOD!!!

My faith does not produce works. I can't faith anything into happening. MY FAITH is in Christ ALONE. He ALONE is the one who does! But He only DOES what He speaks to me. Anything else is WOF.

I cannot Faith myself into having anything I want if my faith is great enough. My faith cannot raise the dead or heal someone.

And my lack of faith isn't responsible for anyone's death either!

I cannot walk on water just because I believe I can!

---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


kathr...you said: My works do not produce faith. My faith does not produce works either.
Interesting...........
---JIM on 1/14/10


--kathr4453 on 1/14/10James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,

and I will shew thee my faith
-->by my works<--.

So you say James is Lying. And Jesus was wrong for forgiving them their sins because they had faith to knock a whole in the roof and let the sick man down to Jesus.

You can contradict Gods word because you believe something different than what it says?
Maybe you should write your own Bible for us all to believe you and Not Jesus.
---exzucuh on 1/14/10


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EX, I believe it's the works of faith. There is no such thing as FAITH BY WORKS. My works do not produce faith. My faith does not produce works either. MY faith is what God has first revealed to me, as when God revealed to Abraham He would give him a son. ALL Abraham did was Believe God. Abraham's faith did not produce a son. This is what the word of faith people teach.

True faith in Jesus will be revealed as HE keeps HIS PROMISES. Abraham SURRENDERED to the Lord Isaac, just as WE surrender ourselves to the Lord. WHY did Abraham obey and lay Isaac upon an alter...ANSWER, because Abraham KNEW through PROMISE God would raise him from the dead!
---kathr4453 on 1/14/10


Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you, seek, and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

all will be forgiven
---TheSeg on 1/13/10


ANYONE can place their faith in Jesus christ, and it is CHRIST who convicts and deliveres from sin and the effects of sin AFTER we are saved. If that isn't happening, that person IS NOT SAVED!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10

That is right that is Faith by works. You show me faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

The faith you have in Jesus Christ becomes reality by the wortks of Christ in your life.

Why are you warring with me if you know that?
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


---kathr4453 on 1/13/10 If I have you mixed up with someone else I am sorry. I am presently
posting on 5 or six blogs and also on other sites. Some of them are so closely related in content I may have meant that post to someone else. At this moment I need to try to find out if I am posting on the right blog. Or just give up all together. I cannot accomplish anything if I am confused about who I am talking to.
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


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Why did I get saved and filled with the Holy Spirit if I could be saved and still live my old lifestyle. Wow! I think I will follow you, your way I don't have to live for God any more and I can sin all I want.
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


EX, what was that all about. Please tell me where I stated these things?

SIN is bearing false witness against someone too. YOU just did that.

ANYONE can place their faith in Jesus christ, and it is CHRIST who convicts and deliveres from sin and the effects of sin AFTER we are saved. If that isn't happening, that person IS NOT SAVED!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


---kathr4453 on 1/13/10 Salvation is based on belief. salvation is based on faith. You say these things and I believe these things. But how do you believe? how does God know you believe
If you tell me you believe and you are in adultery, then you will go to heaven. Or a sodomite that believes and preaches you can be a sodomite and still be saved. You expect me to believe that they will be saved. Why did I get saved and filled with the Holy Spirit if I could be saved and still live my old lifestyle. Wow! I think I will follow you, your way I don't have to live for God any more and I can sin all I want.
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


Yes indeed. No matter "when" a person gets right with God, at the beginning of their life, at the middle, or at the end, the important thing is that they did, and that they have escaped the fires of hell and are accepted into the glories of heaven as a child of God. Note how the Lord says that the agreement for every individial soul at all times is always the same exact reward, "a denarii" (which is called "a pound", equalling "two and a half dollars"), two and a half dollars yesterday, or two and a half dollars today, or two and a half dollars tomorrow, depending on when you agree come to serve him is when you receive the reward.
---Eloy on 1/13/10


MarkV, please don't take my words and TWIST them. I said the term Saved as we use it in the NT is not how it was used in the old. No where was it said anyone was SAVED. Yet we KNOW OT saints were in fact SAVED. But individuals were saved, not NATIONS as a whole.

Heb 11 never uses the word SAVED in the list of those who were saved. Noah's and household was SAVED from the flood.
And YES today those who are SAVED are saved from the wrath to come. Many will have already passed before the WRATH of God comes at the Great Tribulation. The Church will be translated out and saved from the wrath to come! However our salvation is more than being saved from the wrath to come, we are SAVED from sin, and given eternal life NOW!!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


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Exzucuh, I also disagree with you as Kathr on Psa. 106:7,8. The context is not talking about rebirth or eternal life. It is talking about saving them again as He saves them many times from their enemies.
But Kathr is wrong too since she says no one was saved in the Old Testament, since many were under the promise of salvation just as we are today. No one is saved today yet from the wrath of God which has not come yet. But we are promised salvation by grace through faith in the works of Jesus and His resurrection, forgiven, and have been made righteous by the imputation of Christ righteousness.
---MarkV. on 1/13/10


Hebrews 3:17-19
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Salvation is based on BELIEF.

God promised Abraham the Land. Moses mission was to bring them to the promise land. God brought them out to BRING THEM IN!!!

All coming out of Egypt actually represents Christ dying for the sin of the WHOLE WORLD, however we know the whole world is not automatically saved. Only those WHO BELIEVE and ENTER IN!!!!

We see the same parallel in 2 Peter 2:20
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


---kathr4453 on 1/13/10 Your right and unless you endure to the end there is no place that says you are saved from hell. It says you were saved from your sins.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus paid the debt of Adam so you could be free from the bondage of sin, Just like Israel was free from the bondage of Egypt but they went to hell because they had no obedient faith. Jesus said when he returns will he find faith in the earth. Not unless you start obeying the Gospel
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


Ex, God saved Israel out of Egypt, however no where does scripture say these men were SAVED from hell.

Actually the term SAVED as in Born Again or eternal life is not used in the OT as is in the New.

Many scriptures state Israel being SAVED from their enemies.

No one is saved and then sent to HELL! We're saved FROM Hell! God swore in HIS WRATH they would not enter His Rest. Do you see the word WRATH here.

No one was SAVED/given Eternal life in the Wilderness. Eternal life=PROMISE=REST.

The Jordan represents the CROSS. Just as today many are still in the wilderness who have failed to CROSS over....they are on the wrong side of CALVARY!!! They haven't ENTERED IN!!!! Hebrews 10!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


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Psalms 106:7-8 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt, they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies, but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea. Nevertheless he -->saved them<-- for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

God say's he saved Israel but you say he did not. James says that your kind of Faith is not faith but you will not accept what James says.
You believe your made up version of faith the same kind the devil has according to James.
But I guess James is a liar like you say I am.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


The Gospel and the word that comes from the gospel is to the sinner and the saint. The word to the sinner is not the same word to the saint. A sinner is not born again and has not tasted of the heavenly gift. So the word to him is all have sinned and whosoever calls on the name of the Lord, repent and be baptized,receive ye the holy Spirit, the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But that word is not to those who are Born again changed, translated, new creatures. The message changes for them to become the image of Gods Son.Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


I believe it doesn't matter if you come to the Saving Grace of Christ early in life or on your death bed. You are still an heir with Christ.
---JIM on 1/12/10

This I agree with 100%.
---miche3754 on 1/12/10


I believe it doesn't matter if you come to the Saving Grace of Christ early in life or on your death bed. You are still an heir with Christ.
---JIM on 1/12/10


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The Moderator makes a good point.

This Parable is about grace and salvation by grace alone. The workers followed the owner and did his will even with no promise of payment. In grace all were paid equal. Those who are saved will be by grace alone. But grace is never alone. Grace and being saved results in working.

Dathan withstood Moses because he thought he could make his own system of worship. He went alive into hell even though he was saved. Yes he was saved just like all the rest of Israel were saved but they perished. exzucuh

So Dathan is saved while alive in hell? So what is he saved from?
---Samuel on 1/12/10


He went alive into hell even though he was saved. Yes he was saved just like all the rest of Israel were saved but they perished.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


Well first of all exzucuh, there is no such animal! No one was SAVED ( a TYPE of our REST in Christ) until they entered the LAND!!!The rest DIED in their sin in the wilderness!

Trav, we are discussing the Parable in Matthew 20. Now to really understand this you must go back and read several chapters BEFORE 20.

I don't SERVE to get saved.
I'm not PAID to be saved.
I'm not rewarded more or less than anyone else for my salvation. This puts the responsibility for my salvation on me, not Christ.

But those who see this as salvation are of WORKS, not GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


Trav.. THIS IS my Reasonable SERVICE and all that comes with it!!!

Romans 12

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Then OBEYING His Will!

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


SERVICE not Salvation!!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10

What do you visualize your service to be kathr4453?
---Trav on 1/12/10


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1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


EX, why have you turned this into EARNING your salvation? This is not about earning salvation through good works,or losing it through bad works! Matt 20 is not about 1 Cor 3:17 to begin with!

Those who didn't ENTER into the Rest of God...they did not enter in because of LACK OF FAITH. Not LACK of works!

Paul TELLS us that gold silver precious stone vs Wood hay and stubble....and EVEN if a person's WORKS burn HE IS STILL SAVED! He just won't have anything to show for his life!

Does MarkV agree here with YOUR understanding Matt 20 is about WORKS salvation?
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


---kathr4453 on 1/12/10 You may not know it but you are proving that you only believe part of the word of God and are rejecting the very words of Christ. A false balance is an abomination the same as sodomy or Blasphemy.
We are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God by faith. You cannot pick and choose what you want. Aaron And Miriam withstood Moses because they believed they were right about the word of God and God would have killed them both if Moses had not intervened. Dathan withstood Moses because he thought he could make his own system of worship. He went alive into hell even though he was saved. Yes he was saved just like all the rest of Israel were saved but they perished.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


In the passover you see the Grace of God over Israel to any that got under the blood. The death Angel passed over them by Grace, he did not go into the building and sort through the people but only looked at the Blood on the Door posts for their salvation. After that they saw the mighty works of God their accountability to God changed, They were saved but God required them to obey him by Faith to the end to receive the promise.
Hebrews 3:17-19 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


MarkV, I realize when you see the word CHOSEN you will go to great lengths trying to make it fit in with the Calvin Doctrine. Maybe that is why Calvinism doesn't understand the COST of decipleship.

Even the 7 letters to the Churches talk about REWARDS to the faithful.

Paul said Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,


Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as HIS WORK shall be.


If you say this means salvation MarkV, then one CAN earn their salvation!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


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It is very evident that the people of today are the same as the stiff necked people of Moses day that died in the wilderness after God saved them out of Bondage. He saved them then he destroyed them because they could not be obedient by faith They argued with Moses and would not accept law that God gave him. They saw his mighty miracles yet would not believe, their hearts continually went back to Egypt. And they lusted after the things of the ungodly. You should be able to see by the mistakes that Israel made that God will save you if you are obedient and he will destroy you if you are not.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


The reversal of values Matthew 19 and in the parable of the workers in the vineyard is illustrated by the way he accepted and embraced the cross, concludes in Matthew 20.

We see Jesus an example who Left Glory became a servant unto death and God EXALTED HIM! Phil 2( keeping this mind in you.....)

Remember in earlier chapters James and John request the highest positions in the coming kingdom.

Jesus states that the two brothers "do not know what (they) are asking."

It's the reversal of OUR human value system. Jesus asks if they are able to "drink the cup that I am about to drink."

SERVICE not Salvation!!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


---kathr4453 on 1/11/10 The first will be last and the last will be first means the same thing as the greatest will be the least and the least will be the greatest. It has nothing to do with rewards
---exzucuh on 1/11/10


---kathr4453 on 1/11/10 The definition of Grace is: the divine influence upon the heart
Not a free ride. It does not mean you can live in sin and still be saved.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It is Impossible for people who will not obey the Gospel and live sinful lives to be saved. Why because they live in rebellion.
An the wrath of God is upon the children of disobedience.
---exzucuh on 1/11/10


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The parable is about salvation itself not about rewards one gets after been saved. The works it mentions are the one's people make before they are saved. They have nothing to do with salvation because works never saved anyone. So even if you were a mean guy all your life and just before you die at 80 you confess Christ as your Savior you get what another who confessed Christ when he was 15. They all get the same prize. Salvation. All finish in a dead-heat. No one will be crying to God and saying, "but I was a Christian longer and did more things for you Lord, I deserve more"
The Lord will say, "Stop whinning." There is no whinning in heaven.
---MarkV. on 1/11/10


***The parable means that Every christian will be rewarded the same for obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The apostles had it the hardest and had to do the labor under the worst of conditions but as time goes on the labor is not as dangerous and there will not be as much work to do.

The first shall be last meaning the Greatest shall be the least or the most important will be servants to the Last and the Last shall benefit from the labors of the first. ****


EX, The Apostles were FIRST, and will be least rewarded? Yet, in the end when there is nothing to do, they will receive the greater reward?

SO are some more SAVED than others?
And some just a little bit saved? Like being just a little bit pregnant?
---kathr4453 on 1/11/10


Please Post.

This parable is not about Gods grace, because the principle of working and deserving is involved. The grace of God comes completely apart from the principle of deserving. We don't deserve anything really.

REWARDS and GIFT are two entirely different things.

Grace is manifested in our service, it is of grace, not works. by HIS power through us!
The ability to serve God is the gift of His grace.

The call to serve God is the gift of His grace.

Every opportunity to serve is a gift of His grace.

Being in the right state of mind to do the Lords work is a gift of grace.

Success in serving God is the gift of His grace.

---kathr4453 on 1/11/10


The parable means that Every christian will be rewarded the same for obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The apostles had it the hardest and had to do the labor under the worst of conditions but as time goes on the labor is not as dangerous and there will not be as much work to do.

The first shall be last meaning the Greatest shall be the least or the most important will be servants to the Last and the Last shall benefit from the labors of the first.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
---exzucuh on 1/11/10


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Matt 20:1-16 isn't talking about receiving blessings of Grace.

Remember, we were not purchased with silver or Gold, but with the precious blood of Jesus Christ. This is GRACE. Jesus doesn't offer us money to be saved. HE Paid a Dear price for us!!!! His life!!

These verses are talking about LABORERS in the Vineyard.

OR one then can LOSE their salvation!!
Mark 12:7-9
7But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir, come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

8And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

9What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/10


I agree with the moderator.
---ted on 1/11/10


Moderator - If Jagger becomes a Christian, he would receive the same reward of salvation not other heavenly rewards.


Seems to me the Moderator is making a destinction between rewards and salvation.

We are not REWARDED with Salvation because we have goog works, and labored in the vinyard.

Here you need to discern:

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. CHOSEN FOR SERVICE! Just as Steven was CHOSEN to die!!! His Born again life was for just a moment!
---kathr4453 on 1/11/10


Matthew 20:1-16 is not about rewards after we are with the Lord. It is about salvation. I am with the Moderator. vv 20:13-20 is clear it is about salvation. It is God's privilege to extend the same generosity to all. In other words, everyone finishes in a dead heat. No matter how long each of the workers worked, they each received a full day's wages. Similarly, the thief on the cross will enjoy the full blessings of heaven alongside those who have labored their whole lives for Christ. Such is the Grace of God. v. 19:30. You could be a Christian working for God all your life, and someone who is old that never has, suddenly believes by faith, both receive the same blessings of Grace.
---MarkV. on 1/9/10


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So do you believe this parable is about Salvation and not rewards as the Moderator pointed out? I hope so.

Also, Cluny your point is well taken, as verses 14-15 "Take what is yours and go!...
concurs with your verse from John.
---PASTOR_JIM on 1/8/10


mima, just to be clear here, we're not talking about Salvation, but rewards..two entirely different subjects.

Some will have Greater REWARDS than others. Those rewards depend on us as we totally depend on the Lord. Many think they are earning rewards by THEIR doing good works. Not so.

Paul OBEYED daily. I'm sure he had NO IDEA when he was called to be an Apostle what he would suffer. God showed him the things he must suffer ahead of time. Paul walked by FAITH in that knowledge, that no matter what he was not his own! Paul OBEYED and rejoiced all the way to the chopping block! SERVICE..not salvation..not even sanctification however without sanctification there can really be no TRUE SERVICE!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


mima, Paul said he laid the foundation and we build upon it GOLD silver and precious stone, or wood hay and stubble. He said BE CAREFUL how YOU build!

Paul will be given a crown I would only wish I could receive...not because I want a REWARD, but that it would come from the Lord saying WELL DONE my faithful servant. It would only be something I could lay back at His feet and say, To God be the Glory for ALL the things He has done...YET, I have to be a willing VESSEL to be poured out even unto death!

Not everyone is an Antipas or are we all called to be an Antipas. Do you really think Jane Fonda deserves all the same REWARDS as Paul, Antipas etc. NO! She went BACK into the WORLD!!! Maybe didn't like the suffering part???
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


Kathr- do you think you could possibly be adding to the word here a little? My Bible says by one man's obedience(the Lord Jesus Christ's not Mick Jagger's obedience) many were made righteous. Your answer to this question certainly places a heavy burden on Mr. Jagger.
Let us remember the workers who came late in the day got the same pay(it is the paymaster that determines the pay) as those who started working early in the morning.
---mima on 1/8/10


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I would say if Mick Jagger becomes a Christian and God calls him into a place to suffer for his faith,and he OBEYS and perseveres through that suffering at all costs, why would he not receive any rewards?

We're not rewarded on what we had in our old life, but what we gave up!

Mick's rewards then would depend on Mick!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/10


*If* Mick Jagger is about music, money and being famous . . . how does this make him that different than anybody else in the world who seeks money, etc? And Jesus says, "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'" (Matthew 11:29) "All" are called to rest with God in His love having Heaven's own beautifully pure pleasantness soothing us, having us "one spirit with Him" (1 Cointhians 6:17), sharing *this* intimately in His very own love (Romans 5:5) > this is more than any "reward" we can be thinking about (Ephesians 3:19-21). We care most of all about being pleasing to Him (1 Peter 3:4, Romans 14:17-18). If Mick or anyone gets into this, rewards are not the main thing.
---Bill_bila5659 on 1/8/10


What is the difference between reward of salvation and other heavenly rewards?
Can you provide examples please
---Rodney on 1/7/10


Moderator,s answer is very correct.
---mima on 1/7/10


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understand what rewards,aka treasures laid up in heaven where rust and moth do not destroy are.If during your life you have done no works in christ then your only reward will be salvation,you have no treasures,aka rewards.
---tom2 on 1/7/10


Once upon a time, an apostle asked the question, "And what about this man?"

To this, Someone greater than anyone who posts to these blogs said, "And what is that to you? YOU follow ME."
---Cluny on 1/7/10


Telling untruths and making unjustified allegation and accusations of other people are in God's eyes as great as the more exciting sins of drugs and fornication
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/7/10


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