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Jewish View Of The Holy Spirit

What was the pre-Christian Jewish view of the Holy Spirit? Person or force/power of God?

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 ---scott on 1/10/10
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Pre-Christian Jews indeed believed the HS is a person, for the trinity is also in the O.T: God says, "Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called: I he, I the first, I also the last. Come you all near to me, hear you all this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there I: and now the Lord Yhwh, and his Spirit, has sent me." Isaiah 48:12,16.
---Eloy on 1/28/10


Pre-Christian Jews not not believe that the HS was a person, certainly not part of a triune God.

Early Christians likewise did not believe that the HS was a person or part of a triune.

If they did, WHY was the HS not included as a 'deity' during the Nicean council 325? It wasn't included until 381, Constantinople.
---scott on 1/27/10


Eloy,

Your comments to me on 1/27/10 are simply 'red herrings', a way to avoid answering the simple question that I asked you regarding the pre-Christian view of the HS. (The question of this blog by the way).

We've spoke before and, true to form, when you are unable to offer a sound scriptural answer or defense you revert to silly language about 'dissing', etc.

Not interested. Take care.
---scott on 1/27/10


Mark Eaton,

To be clear- It was you who made the hasty claim- "Show me one prayer in the OT given by someone where they are praying to the Heavenly Father." 1/26/10

When I showed you 2, there were two choices: 1. Whoops hadn't come across those verses before. Perhaps these are rare exceptions (and I would have agreed). Or 2. (out of pride) suggest that these are not really the words of Isaiah but those of Christ, which of course can't be true because you then have a Christ speaking of his sinful nature to his heavenly father.

You chose the later. And it's a mishandling of God's word.

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman...accurately handling the word of truth." NASB
---scott on 1/27/10


Scott:

I am not going to argue with you again. You seem to have an unteachable spirit. You have argued non-stop with nearly everyone in this blog. Are you so arrogant to think that you have the entire Bible figured out? I certainly do not and I do not think anyone does.

What you should realize is that the true nature of God, being Father, Son, and Spirit, was not known FULLY by people in the OT. It was hinted at, described by Scripture, but the truth remained cloaked in mystery. Just as salvation for us Gentiles, becoming sons and daughters of God, and joint-heirs with Jesus remained cloaked.

It is Jesus and the Spirit that have revealed these truths to us in the NT.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/27/10




Scott, You say Christ is not God, and you also say Paul did not say Christ was God, but I have rightly corrected you with the Word of God, and yet you still bear false witness and are inclined on dissing what I say and dissing Christ. And until you get saved you will continue to believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 1/27/10


Mark Eaton-

Just so that I'm clear, you are in fact sticking with your assertion that Christ is speaking at Is 64:8 (and in context then vs 4-6)?

vs. 4- "nor has an eye seen a God besides you."

vs. 5- "We kept sinning..."

vs. 6- "And we became as someone unclean...our errors themselves will carry us away like the wind."

Making Jesus Christ then "Sinning" and "Unclean?"
---scott on 1/26/10


Michael,

I'd be happy to comment on Isaiah 40:13, but obviously you have not answered or responded to the points that I have made or the questions that I have asked...don't really expect you to.

The fact that you (rather than offer an answer or defend your unscriptural position) presume to remove from me the possibility of 'eternity' is amusing.

Perhaps we'll talk some other time...take care.
---scott on 1/26/10


Scott, It saddens me to think that we may not see each other in eternity. I do look forward to reading your views on the Word of God. I can only rely on the fact that we can only plant and water and it is God that gives the increase. The more I search, the more my faith is stablished in the Truth. I am sure this it true for you as well even though we have different views of certain doctrines. This is another ref. that I believe points toward a personable, not personified, Spirit. Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and [who] instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
---MIchael on 1/26/10


Your assertion that Isaiah's words are actually Christ's words spoken to the Father is fatally flawed.
---scott on 1/26/10

Your assertion is that Isaiah is saying these verses is also incorrect.

Is 63:1 "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save"

and

Is 63:3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger"

and

Is 63:5 "So My own arm brought salvation to Me"
---Mark_Eaton on 1/26/10




Mark Eaton (1)

Sooooooo...when Isaiah said:

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father..."

and...

"For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name..."

...that was actually God was speaking to himself?

Fascinating!
---scott on 1/26/10


Mark Eaton (2)

Your assertion that Isaiah's words are actually Christ's words spoken to the Father is fatally flawed. (Is 64:8)

vs. 4- "nor has an eye seen a God besides you."

vs. 5- "We kept sinning..."

vs. 6- "And we became as someone unclean...our errors themselves will carry us away like the wind."

Jesus Christ- Not having seen God? "Sinning"? "Unclean?"

This is the prophet Isaiah's prayer to the Almighty on behalf of the Israelites and he referred to God as "Our Father." (vs 8)
---scott on 1/26/10


Scott:

You sure are missing it. It is in the passage you keep using, yet you do not see it. You are reading without understanding who is speaking.

Is 63: 1 "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save"

This is not Isaiah speaking, it is Jesus speaking to God Himself.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/26/10


"Show me one prayer in the OT given by someone where they are praying to the Heavenly Father." Mark Eaton

Am I missing something here?

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV

"For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name." Isaiah 63:16 ASV -scott on 1/21/10
---scott on 1/26/10


"Sometimes what is not seen speaks volumes to us." Mark_Eaton

Don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that although there is not scriptural support for your claim, the fact that it is NOT there is somehow meaningful?
---scott on 1/26/10


Scott:

Sometimes what is not seen speaks volumes to us.

Show me one prayer in the OT given by someone where they are praying to the Heavenly Father.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/26/10


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Eloy, It's clear what your view or perspective is on the subject, the question is regarding pre-Christian Jews and their view of the HS.

What scriptures would you cite that indicate (before Christ) God's chosen people for some 2,000 years, viewed the HS as a person or third part of a triune God?
---scott on 1/26/10


Person. Recall how God's Spirit spoke words to individuals. A force or a power does not speak words to people: but a person, namely God whom made man in his own shape speaks words to the humans which he created.
---Eloy on 1/26/10


Mark_Eaton,

The verses that I cited from Isaiah and Deuteronomy (the words of Moses and the prophet Isaiah, not God's) contradict your assertion.

What scriptural reference are you drawing on to support your claim?
---scott on 1/25/10


Scott,

I know that passage of Isaiah well. While God calls himself Father, Jews were reluctant to do so. It was not until Jesus revealed the true nature of God to us that we can indeed call God Abba...

The Holy Spirit is the same. Before Jesus, IT was the common usage. After Jesus decribes Him as The Comforter, we understand His role so much better.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/25/10


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If the HS wasn't actually included in the trinitarian formula until 381 ce, how can it be said that 1st century Christians believed in a trinity?
---scott on 1/25/10


"The pre-Christian Jewish view of God was not that of a father..." Mark Eaton

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV

"For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name." Isaiah 63:16 ASV

"Thou hast seen how that Jehovah thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went..." Deut. 1:31 ASV
---scott on 1/21/10


1st Cliff... where did you get the idea that most of the early converts were Pharisees? Actually, the Sadducees were the priests and when they went into Babylon there was no Temple, thus no power for the Sadducees. In Babylon, the Pharisees built synogogues in order to have the ability to operate. When they came out of Babylon, the synogogues came with them, and the Sadducees were left out of power. The talmud refers to the Sadducees as "Christian" and seeing they as a group seem to disappear in the first century, it would seem they either became Pharisees or attached to the Yehoshua group.

Peace.
Ken
---Ken_Rank on 1/19/10


I am not sure that this question is relevant.

The pre-Christian Jewish view of God was not that of a father but Jesus Himself gave us new illumination of this in Matt 6

Matt 6:9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven,Hallowed be Your name"

I believe that Jesus did the same for the Holy Spirit with His disciples in John 16

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you"
---Mark_Eaton on 1/17/10


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Since Paul coined the phrase "Godhead bodily" the trinitarians pointed to this "See,three heads on the one body, got to be a trinity!"
There were no challengers seeing that the majority of converts after Pentecost were former Pharisees, whatever Paul said was "gospel truth"! including "soul immortality" a deep seated Pharisee belief!
---1st_cliff on 1/17/10


Michael 2

If pre-Christian Jews didn't understand the HS to be a person (and they didn't)...

When was that revealed or explained to 1st century Christians?

Paul uses essentially the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians to explain the resurrection. Romans 4 is dedicated to helping new disciples understand salvation by faith. Many other things were taught, explained and expounded upon.

Wouldn't this monumental new understanding of the HS (after some 2,000 years) require an inspired comment or 2? Why is there no challenge to this new thought by Jewish religious leaders who challenged everything taught by Christ and the apostles?

I'm away for a few days. Look forward to your response on my return.
---scott on 1/17/10


MarkV,

I stand by my earlier comments to you. Unless your accusations of 'heretic' etc., can be backed up by scripture, they are without merit and simply personal opinion.

You've not used one single verse to prove your claim, and your personal opinion (peppered with insults) is of no real value to me or to this discussion.

Childish, apologetic 'door-bell ditch.'
---scott on 1/17/10


Michael 1

Thank you for your comments, though I'm not sure I completely understand your point.

It is clear, in both the old and new testaments, that spirits or angels exist, and with personalities. I would love to know what the angels said to Christ while ministering to him after his temptation by the Devil. (Matt 4:11)

But just because something is personified in God's word doesn't automatically mean that it is a person.

Remember 'wisdom' is said to have children ( Luke 7:35) 'sin & death' are said to be kings (Rom 5:14, 21) 'The land' cries out (NIV Job 31:38-40) 'Truth' dies (Jer 7:28) etc.
---scott on 1/17/10


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Spirits are personable, have personality and are not just personified, Especially God's Spirit, the Holy Ghost.
thanks scott for continuing the verses and determining that spirits can also lie, except of course for God's.
---MIchael on 1/16/10


Scott, I told you It would do me and Christ no good for me to even talk to you about Christ. Heck, you might just throw the devil at me as some do when they get frustrated. Their last hope is the devil so they attack me with the only one they can count on to try to hurt.
I don't know what your destiny is Scott, I don't judge that. That is up to God not me. You probably are prepared like the all those who spoke against the deity of Christ. If I started going back and forth with you, I would just waste my time bringing Scripture out, which still would not do any good for you, since you have the answers already. Anything I would say would be useless so why wast time just to give you more room to bring Christ down some more. Sorry, not bitting.
---MarkV. on 1/16/10


MarkV, I'll repeat my earlier observations:

"Your approach to this discussion (and apologetics in general) reminds me of the game that children play- ringing the doorbell and running away.

You elevate yourself to the position of judge ("your heart is already hardened..." "One thing you are not and that is Orthodox Christian" now heretic) and yet you are unwilling or unable to use God's word to back up your accusations.

I respect individuals with a different opinion than mine, and I can take a well-directed, apologetic punch. But you really shouldn't throw a punch if you plan to hike-up your skirt and skip away when someone takes issue with you and your accusations." scott on 1/13/10
---scott on 1/16/10


Jesus is Divine and eternal because he is the offspring of God. What is born of Spirit is Spirit. It looks like the Spirit that has begotten it, sounds like it, And is eternal like it. The Son of God is just like his Father only he is subject to his Father.
It says because he is subject, God has given him a name above every name and all power over heaven and Earth.

John 14:28
I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
---exzucuh on 1/16/10


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I am curious, if you Markv can actually confess Jesus is the Son of God. Can you believe he is God's Son. And actually confess it to people.
If you do not confess Jesus is the Son of God
He will not confess you before his Father.
The Father never said believe I am the Son!
he said BELIEVE ON MY SON!

If you had been there when Peter told Jesus He was the Son of God and Jesus said he was right and God had revealed it to him.
You could have straightened both of them out and told them they were heretics.
---exzucuh on 1/16/10


Heretic's have been around for centuries always trying to strip Jesus of His deity. It never stops. They use incidents that happen in the early church and confuse what someone said to what someone else said, as knowledge of the Truth. Those who do, try to find anything that can possibly help them in their rejection that Christ is God. But Christ was and always will be Divine and Eternal. There is no argument there for a genuine Christian.
---MarkV. on 1/16/10


"The Apologists [second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit...one might say too impersonally....The OT clearly does not envisage Gods spirit as a person....Gods spirit is simply Gods power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly....the NT concepts of the Spirit of God are largely a continuation of those of the OT....The majority of NT texts reveal Gods spirit as something, not someone...On the whole, the NT, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power....Nowhere in the OT do we find any clear indication of a Third Person". New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, New York, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1967-c1989), vol. XIV, pp. 296, 574, 575.
---scott on 1/16/10


Michael,
Not sure what you're getting at with your list of references but regarding 1 Kings 22:21...keep reading:

1Ki 22:22- "And he [the spiirt] said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets."

However...

"God...cannot lie..." Titus 1:2
---scott on 1/16/10


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---Josef on 1/15/10 The Holy Spirit was in Jesus's Mother, Father, John the baptist, His Mother and Father, Simeon the prophet, and a few others the Bible names. Jesus died so the Holy Spirit could be poured out on all flesh
Now men are without excuse because the Holy Spirit is not separated from them by Adams sin.
The holy Spirit of the Father draws all men to Jesus and they are judged by their acceptance or their rejection of him.
---exzucuh on 1/16/10


My question is. why knowing us that the Holy Spirit is abundantly mention in the OT and NT, was it unavailable to anyone else after it ascended upon the Messiah until he departed the earth ?---Ed on 1/15/10

Ed:o) Your question has a very simple answer. "For in Him (Jesus) dwells (or dwelt at the time of His sojourn on earth) 'all' the fullness of the Godhead 'bodily'," And He shared the inspiration and insight of that reality with whom ever the Father chose to draw and open their minds to receive it.
---Josef on 1/15/10


Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The name of Jesus is synonymous with God

name of the Father,
John 16:23 Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

and of the Son
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

and of the Holy Ghost
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
---exzucuh on 1/15/10


OT
Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?
2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word [was] in my tongue.
1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me
---MIchael on 1/15/10


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1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Acts 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
---MIchael on 1/15/10


The Jews know who the Holy Spirit is. The Holy Spirit is not a Third person. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the operation of God in the earth. Jesus and the Father are one in his Spirit.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and -->we<-- will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 17:21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in -->us<--:

The Father is the Holy Spirit!
---exzucuh on 1/15/10


scott, the Holy Spirit didn't need to be taught to people, He needs to be EXPERIENCED. Truth is not taught, it's revealed, "Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

Here is all the teaching they needed:
1 John 2:27 - But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
---Donna on 1/15/10


My question is. why knowing us that the Holy Spirit is abundantly mention in the OT and NT, was it unavailable to anyone else after it ascended upon the Messiah until he departed the earth ?
---Ed on 1/15/10


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My question is...

If pre-Christian Jews didn't believe (or understand) that the HS was a person (in the trinitarian sense)...

When was that fact revealed or more importantly explained to 1st century Christians?

Paul uses essentially the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians to explain the concept of the resurrection. Romans 4 is dedicated to helping new disciples understand salvation by faith. Many other things were taught, explained and expounded upon.

Wouldn't this monumental new understanding of the HS (after some 2,000 years) require an inspired comment or 2? Why is there no challenge to this new thought by Jewish religious leaders who challenged everything taught by Christ and the apostles?
---scott on 1/15/10


scott, let me give Jesus a call and I'll get back to you on that.

Because my KJV bible says, "when HE comes, He will convict the world of sin."

If I do not go away, "HE" the comforter will not come to you.

But you could be right, let me call heaven and I'll get back to you when they answer. I hear they're very busy up there praying for people down here.
---Donna on 1/15/10


"As Judaism denies the Son, they have neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit."

It is not the Jews who deny the Son but The Old Testament. The Greek notion, that Gods are human-like and beget sons was rejected by Old Testament. Of course, the New Testament changed it all.
---Jean-Claude on 1/14/10


The Holy Spirit is our Father's Spirit, or disposition and vigor, set apart for the enlightenment and empowerment of mankind. Our Father's direct divine inspiration imparted or bestowed upon the believer as His divine influence upon the heart or central focus in and of the life of man, that man may share in, and have some understanding of Eternal Life. Since the Father is personified, His influence, enlightenment, and inspiration can also be 'personified', as in attributed human nature or character in that "It" is embodied in each of His children.
Consider this, His Word could also be consider an impersonal force, yet His Word was made flesh or tangible to man in the person of Jesus, as was His Spirit.
---Josef on 1/15/10


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Donna,

You of course know that Jesus never used the word "he" in his life.

It's an English word. The word he DID use is "Eikenos" and it can be translated "He, She or It."

But it would take a dangerous and perilous examination of a Greek Lexicon (like Thayer's) to understand that important point.
---scott on 1/14/10


scott, you reference: Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia, 1985 ed., Vol. 6, p. 22

I reference the BIBLE to you and what Jesus said and called the Holy Spirit.

Do you remember the blind man Jesus healed and then the Pharisees asked him, who healed you, who was it? This is what the blind man said:

I only know one thing, I was blind but now I see.

And so Scott, I say the same thing to you, I only know one thing, Jesus Christ crucified for my sins, rose from the dead that I may have life and life abundantly. If Jesus called the Holy Spirit HE, I do to.

NO ENCYCLOPEDIA will change my mind, neither will you - I know what I know by the Spirit of God. You know what you know by an encyclopedia.
---Donna on 1/14/10


Donna,

"Most of these places [HS personified] furnish no cogent proof of personality....We must not forget that the NT personifies mere attributes such as love (1 Cor. xiii. 4), and sin (Rom. vii. 11), nay even abstract and lifeless things, such as the law (Rom iii.19), the water and the blood (1 John v.8)." A Catholic Dictionary

"Abstract and inanimate things are frequently personified..[the] sun rejoices..." Young's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible

"The definition that the HS was a distinct divine Person equal in substance to the Father and the Son...came at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381...." Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia, 1985 ed., Vol. 6, p. 22
---scott on 1/14/10


Capitalizing your assertion doesn't make it true. per scott

scott - it does for me!

If Jesus called the Holy Spirit HIM, then so will I.

I think it is disrespectful and foolish to call God's Spirit it. Might even be blasphemy and unpardonable. Why take a chance and grieve and quench HIM? Respect Him and Love Him, for He is God's HOLY Spirit.
---Donna on 1/13/10


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Donna,

"NEVER" ?

Capitalizing your assertion doesn't make it true.

Romans 8:16 uses the neuter "itself" for the holy spirit in the actual NT manuscripts and texts. The KJV translates it correctly.

Likewise Romans 8:26 uses the neuter "itself" for the holy spirit in the actual NT manuscripts and texts. The KJV translates it correctly.

Check the lexicons.
---scott on 1/13/10


Scott, of course in the OT they would refer to the Holy Spirit as "it" because they didn't know Him.

If you take note after Jesus was Baptised He referred to the Holy Spirit as He.

Since we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, I think we ought to do the same thing Jesus did and recognize the Holy Spirit as God's Holy Spirit and is a HE, not an IT. Amen?

The book of Acts and all of the New Testament epistles NEVER refer to the Holy Spirit as It. That's because they KNEW HIM, HIS POWER and who HE really was-from God, God's Spirit and since God is Holy, we call HIM the Holy Spirit of God.
---Donna on 1/13/10


Donna 1.

"The Spirit of truth which the world cannot receive because it beholds not it [the spirit] nor knows, ye know it". John 14:17 The (trinitarian) interlinear New Testament, The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, 1980

The New American Bible (St. Joseph ed., 1970) like many other Bibles, used "him" at John 14:17, but it provided this enlightening footnote: "The Greek word for `Spirit' is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (`he,' `his,' `him'), most Greek MSS [ancient NT Greek Manuscripts] employ `IT'."
---scott on 1/13/10


Donna 2- Consider:

1. The KJV and ASV render Is. 34:16: "my mouth, it hath commanded, and his Spirit, it hath gathered them."

2. Numbers 11:17- "I will take ['some' - NRSV, NJB] of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them" - ASV (compare KJV, RSV, NRSV, AT, LB, NEB, REB, NAB, JB, NJB, Beck).

3. The same usage is found at Numbers 11:25 in those same trinitarian Bibles: "it."

4. Romans 8:16, 26 uses the neuter "itself" for the holy spirit in the actual NT manuscripts and texts. The KJV translates it correctly.

There are other examples as well.
---scott on 1/13/10


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scott said: The question is whether God's people, the Jews (before the time of Christ) viewed it as a person (in the trinitarian sense) or as a force/power.

Wouldn't it make sense that if they viewed the Holy Spirit as a force or power, that HE wouldn't have moved upon them mightly because they weren't believing who HE really was.

Also scott, I noticed you referred to the Holy Spirit as "it."

Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as "He, Him." When you know the Holy Spirit and who He really is, you really should refer to him as He, not it. Not being judgemental, just pointing this out for future reference.
---Donna on 1/12/10


Scott,p1
There is one specific reference in the OT where the Psalmist knew something of spirit.
He knew that if God took away spirit then creation will cease and immediately die.
The current christian interpretation of the holy spirit is, it is the same as the spirit of truth.
This interpretation is however flawed in that the spirit of truth became active only at pentecost and yet the spirit as the Psalmist said upholds life and all creation.
As I said the christian interpretation of the holy spirit is the same as the spirit of truth therefore the holy spirit by definition was not active until pentecost.
But the (creative) spirit was,is and will be .
---earl on 1/11/10


Scott,p2,
There was no pre christian Jewish concept of the holy spirit as being a person-similiar to a second or third person of Deity.This would be in conflict with one of the 10 commandments.Although the phrase is found in the OT.A Monoethistic religion (the worship of one God) does not include an equal, divine,presence, force or power as an extention of God-(there is no one beside him-O.T.).
Today ,things have changed and pre christian primitive monoethism advances to the higher level,stage through revelation where there is another and another beside God.
---earl on 1/11/10


"What was the pre-Christian Jewish view of the Holy Spirit?"
As YHVH, Who is both the "Person" and the Power.
David's prayer "Do not cast me away from Your 'presence', ("Person") And do not take Your 'Holy Spirit' (Power) from me. Psa 51:11
Even Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged in regard to Daniel " (his name [is] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, in him [is] the 'Spirit' of the 'Holy' God),.." repeating the statement "the Spirit of the Holy God" three times in one address to "all peoples, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth:" Dan 4:1-28
---joseph on 1/12/10


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Scott, The Jews never viewed HS as a person they hang/hung on Deut.6.4. "One God" Polytheism was unknown except in pagan religions! Just ask your local Rabbi!
Trinitarianism was pagan then (Isis, Horus, Set-EGYPTIAN.)(Brahma,Vishnu,Siva-Hindu.)and is pagan today!
NB. "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" does not appear ANYWHERE in the bible, but is glibly mouthed by fundamentalists as tho it was to support there erroneous doctrine!
True..look it up!
---1st_cliff on 1/11/10


Friendly_Blogger & Donna,

There are of course many references to Holy Spirit in The OT or Hebrew Scriptures. The question is whether God's people, the Jews (before the time of Christ) viewed it as a person (in the trinitarian sense) or as a force/power.
---scott on 1/11/10


1st_cliff:

Oops, thanks for pointing that out. I usually say "All the writers of the New Testament (except Luke) were Jews" but I forgot to add that one part for some reason this time.
---StrongAxe on 1/11/10


Wasn't King David Jewish? And Moses? And Noah? They were all pre-Christian Jewish people, right? Or am I missing the real question here?

The Holy Spirt back then "came upon them and rested upon them" and then left them when His work was done.

So the "view" was King David was a believer as well as Jewish and allowed the Holy Spirit to "come upon Him." So did and was Moses, Noah, Joseph, Jacob, etc., or am I missing what you are really asking?
---Donna on 1/11/10


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Since you can't find the Holy Spirit in an OT Text. Probably the most useful method is to look NT Attributes associated with the Holy Spirit in the NT. then look up those aspects in relation to the God Head in the Old Testament. There are various Tools in to do this.

The aspects of Trainer and Comforter/Protector associated with with the Holy Spirit are definitely present in the OT, the protection of David when he was under persecution my King Saul. Elijah when under persecution by Ahab he stay with the widow and there is always enough meal to make bread.

Who inspires OT writers of future events. These are simply associated with the God Head it the OT but are stratified and distributed to individual entities in the NT literature
---Friendly_Blogger on 1/11/10


Thanks for the replies.

The question is- did pre-Christian Jews view the HS as a person or a force?
---scott on 1/11/10


|| But Cluny, what about all those people that came before Christ--that's what the questioner is asking here.||

Where did you get that idea?

The original question doesn't even MENTION the Son, much less "all those people that came before Christ."
---Cluny on 1/11/10


Strong Axe, Luke was not Jewish,but rather a Greek gentile!
---1st_cliff on 1/11/10


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The phrases "Spirit of God," "Spirit of the Lord," "...the Lord GOD, and his Spirit..," "And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me..." is the same Holy Spirit in the New Testament. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Besides, the name "Holy Spirit" is also used in the Old Testament.

Cluny: "Does it matter?" (in addition)

It certainly does. Without the Holy Spirit we would be nothing. Without the Holy Spirit we could not prophesy, speak in tongues, understand spiritual matters, gain knowledge and wisdom, receive counsel, know the truth, be healed (both physically and spiritually), and most important, we could not love.
---Steveng on 1/10/10


The people in the pre christian era did have a primitive concept of the creative spirit but the spirit of truth was not known to them prior to Jesus' description and function of it.The gospel of John makes two opposing statements, 1.they are one and the same and 2. it states the spirit of truth is something new for this world .
However for centuries,the holy(creative) spirit and spirit of truth are ultimately recognized by most as one and the same having it's beginnings shortly after pentecost.If this is true then the creative spirit has never functioned(inactive) in this universe pre pentecost.Then previous history up to that day never was.
---earl on 1/10/10


Cluny:

Perhaps you're confusing contemporary Jewish thinking (which denies the Son) to the blog topic - i.e., PRE-Christian Jewish thinking. Note that all of the Apostles were Jewish, as were all of the writers of the New Testament, and none of them denied the Son (well, except Peter, but that was a one-time thing).
---StrongAxe on 1/10/10


I am not for sure about the Jewish view of this, but the Hebrew view is lightly
touched on below. Please be a good Christian and don't Judge all of Judea on the beliefs of the Orthodox Jewish religion.
2 Chronicles 15 The Reforms of Asa
1 Now the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded.
1 Samuel 10:10(New King James Version)
10 When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him, then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
Isaiah 11:1-3(New King James Version)
Isaiah 11
The Reign of Jesses Offspring
1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
---Ed on 1/10/10


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But Cluny, what about all those people that came before Christ--that's what the questioner is asking here. I feel if they believed in the Lord God, they were doing the best they could with the knowledge they had. No one could have comprehended the miracle of salvation before Jesus came--or before He sent the Holy Spirit.
---Mary on 1/10/10


Scott, Spirit in Hebrew is "ruach" which means air, breath, wind etc.. certainly not a person. "Holy" Spirit means it comes from God and is the power that he uses to accomplish His will,like the "breath of life" that enlivened Adam!
---1st_cliff on 1/10/10


Does it matter?

As Judaism denies the Son, they have neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
---Cluny on 1/10/10


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