ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Early Gentile Converts Sabbath

Did the early Gentile converts observe the Sabbath and the laws of Moses?

Moderator - The early Gentile converts were under no obligation to observe any of the Jewish laws as they were under grace. The Apostle Paul settled this issue at the Jerusalem Council in around 50 AD. The gentiles were not under the Jewish laws as the Judaizers wished. Paul called the Judaizers false teachers.

Join Our Christian Singles and Take The Ten Commandments Bible Quiz
 ---Lee on 1/12/10
     Helpful Blog Vote (4)

Post a New Blog



Lee1538:

U Said:
The Sabbath will not be kept in the new earth. A more clear translation of the verse you are referring to is from the following.
Isaiah 66:23 NLT All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month.///

Lee, your Translation is incorrect , in Isaiah 66:23, the "HE-brew" word for Sabbath is Shabbat, found in the Original Writings of the Word. This word Shabbat is also found in the American Standard Version Bible! Nice try, stop reading apostates translations!
---Paul9594 on 1/18/10


Yes, James chaired the counsel, however it was Paul that had the issue and was settling the topic due to the Judaizers he was continually having to deal with. The counsel laid down that the gentiles were not under the Jewish laws, but grace.

Seventh Day Adventists are modern day Judaizers which is why most mainline denominations today consider them a cult.
---Moderator on 1/18/10


Francis //They settled the issue of circumsicion But here thet are commanded to keep other " O.T" law, and learn more every sabbath day.

Please read Acts 15:5 slowly and thoughtfully.

But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcise them AND AND AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.'

(please read 1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25 as to what the law of Moses is)

The issue at the Jerusalem council was whether Gentile converts had to conform to the Jewish religion. Circumcision was merely the entrance rite into Judaism and if one submitted to that rite, then one was obligated to observe ALL the laws, stautues, and commandments found within Judaism.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


Will olde Ellen White be ringing a bell to tell people when the Sabbath begins?
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10
There can't tell when it is either!!, They have split, one side say it is the 7Th day of the week (me too), the other side wants to reenact the new moon sabbath and a sabbath every 7 days after.
---Ed on 1/18/10


Francis//They settled the issue of circumcision But here then are commanded to keep other " O.T" law, and learn more every Sabbath day.

Totally ludicrous!!!

Anyone familiar with either the Scripture or with church history would be able to tell you that there was much antagonism between Gentiles & Jews. In fact, the only Gentiles permitted in the synagogues would be those whom would become proselytes to Judaism.

If you know anything at all about Acts of the Apostles, you would know that the main presecutors of Paul was the Jews.

Get real!!!!
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10




Franeis //If the sabbath is no more today, how do you explain the sabbath again in the new earth?

The sabbath will not be kept in the new earth. A more clear translation of the verse you are referring to is from the following.

Isaiah 66:23 NLT All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month.

What Sabbaterians are guilty of is their obsession with the keeping of the Sabbath which really not applicable to His church.

Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Will olde Ellen White be ringing a bell to tell people when the Sabbath begins?
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


Did jesus Lie?
---Francis on 1/18/10

No. Unfortunately you seem to forget this verse:

Luke 22:20 "And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood"

And this one:

Heb 8:13 "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear"

The first covenant made on Mt. Sinai (Ex 19)with the children of Israel is obsolete.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/18/10


Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

If the sabbath is no more today, how do you explain the sabbath again in the new earth?

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

They settled the issue of circumsicion But here thet are commanded to keep other " O.T" law, and learn more every sabbath day.
---Francis on 1/18/10


Yes the New testement does list sabbath observance for all believers.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

So if you keep 9/10 commandments, and choose not to keep the sabbath you are guilty of SIN

There was never a problem in the New testement of anyone Jew or gentile convert keeping the sabbath

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.


There are just two many text referring to the sabbath in the New testement to be ignored
---Francis on 1/18/10


//It is not JEWISH SABBATH, it is THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD.

Since the Sabbath was ONLY observed by the Jewish nation, it can only be of the Jews.

//Jesus said: Think NOT that i am come to destroy the Law...Not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the law until everything is fulfilled...Did jesus Lie?

You need to read my posts on this verse.

Jesus came to fulfil the law and to that end all other things may occur before this will happen, including passing of this earth. Jesus fulfilled the law when He went to the Cross.

Sorry but the church is not under the Old Covenant law but under the New.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10




//Jesus ... spoke harshly and condemningly to those who fell into legalism.

Yes, and the sabbath keeping and law promoting Pharisees were the ones who were the chief enemies of Jesus. I fail to understand why those who call on the name of Christ want to identify with such people. But that is the bondage of religion that Jesus condemned.

There is nothing in the New Testament that commands the observance of the Jewish Sabbath, nor is it even listed as a sin.

Poor legalists simply have no good arguments for the Sabbath observance. They simply run around in circles trying to convince themselves and others that they are in the rigtht and everyone else is wrong.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


It is not JEWISH SABBATH, it is THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD

And the Books of the New testement do bear witness that the early church including gentiles all keeped the sabbath.

Jesus said: Think NOT that i am come to destroy the Law...
Did jesus Lie?

Jesus said: Not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the law until everything is fulfilled...

Did jesus Lie?
---Francis on 1/18/10


Gordon //They made the rules of the Sabbath so unbearably cumbersome, that it was nearly impossible for anyone to keep, much less enjoy.

And there is very little reason to believe modern day religionists will not do the same as the Pharisees did during the time of Christ.

In any case, you guys have yet to point to a single verse in the Bible that mandates the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the church.

It appears from the reaction I received that since the Sabbath was MADE (Mk. 2:27)that it could not something that is eternal. Good sense would tell us that anything that was made simply cannot be eternal.

Again it is all so much foolishness on the part of those who have become entangled in religion.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


Jody, YAHUSHUA (JESUS) never broke GOD's Sabbath Law. YAHUSHUA was perfectly sinless. What He "broke" was the rules that the Pharisees ADDED to GOD's Sabbath. The Pharisees rejected YAHUSHUA as the Messiah, and therefore proved that they did not really know GOD. They made the rules of the Sabbath so unbearably cumbersome, that it was nearly impossible for anyone to keep, much less enjoy! That was one reason why YAHUSHUA got in their faces. They were religious hypocrites who were not on their way to Heaven, and they were keeping others from getting there also. Plucking heads of wheat to eat, and letting a healed leper carry his sleeping mat home on the Sabbath day were forbidden by the Pharisees, but, it was perfectly fine with GOD.
---Gordon on 1/18/10


//Isaiah 56 is one instance that says you must keep the Sabbath to be saved.

What you state is simply so much foolishness and ignorance of the Bible on the part of many.

Salvation is by grace alone and not by works at all - Eph. 2:8-10. What you have is really a belief that you must earn your salvation by obseving laws not mandated in the New Covenant of His church.

As to the Sabbath, if if if it were of any importance at all, you would certainly see it commanded in the New Testament but you do not not.

It is unfortunate that the god of this world has been so very successful in blinding the eyes of many to the truth of the gospel by false religions. 2 Cor. 2:4
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


"Wrong! It was James - not Paul or even Peter - who chaired the Jerusalem council." - Jerry

Yes, James chaired the counsel, however it was Paul that had the issue and was settling the topic due to the Judaizers he was continually having to deal with. The counsel laid down that the gentiles were not under the Jewish laws, but grace.

Seventh Day Adventists are modern day Judaizers which is why most mainline denominations today consider them a cult.
---Moderator on 1/18/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Business Training


The Bible teaches to "not let anyone judge you regarding food or drink or a Sabbath," festival or new moon which are shadows of things to come. There is a Sabbath rest which some will enter into. This means that the Sabbath rest would likely be continuous(every day). Jesus himself on many occasions broke the rule of Moses' Sabbath law and those found in Deut. He spoke harshly and condemningly to those who fell into legalism. The Law is no longer out tutor but rather the Holy Spirit is our tutor(teacher). Each man "must be fully convinced" in his own belief. Anything not of faith is sin.
---jody on 1/18/10


Mod: "The Apostle Paul settled this issue at the Jerusalem Council in around 50 AD."

Wrong! It was James - not Paul or even Peter - who chaired the Jerusalem council. The issues under discussion never included the abolition of the Ten Commandment Law, but rather focused on circumcision, meat offered to idols, eating blood, etc. - all of which have nothing to do with the Ten Commandments.

You add to scripture that which is not there while ignoring Christ's own words to the contrary.
---jerry6593 on 1/18/10


while the Jewish feasts are rather interesting, they all reflect back to some event in the history of Judaism plus they all foretell something of the minisry of Christ.
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Lee1538: "...and since it is NOT eternal (did not exist prior to Creation), it will not be in the eternal life to come."

Chrisitans are walking the same path as the Israelites did before Moses gave them the tablets. During these end times, christians hearts have hardened to know the truth. Christians are rebelious for rebellion is like the sin of divination and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.

Psalm 111
Psalm 119
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 15:9
John 12:50
John 14:15
Romans 7:12
1 Corinthians 7:19
1 Timothy 6:14
1 John 2:4
1 John 5:2
1 John 5:3
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:12
Revelation 22:14

And the prophets of old prophsy that these same commandments are forever.
---Steveng on 1/17/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Software


Moderator// You are right about not being under Jewish law. But the Torah (teaching) was given by GOD not a Jew, and it was given to a Levite, not a Jew. It is for the people of GOD, not just Jews. The 10 Commandments are of GOD for all! Isaiah 56 is one instance that says you must keep the Sabbath to be saved. This chapter is about the nations that will be saved. Knowing this you should yourself understand the difference between Jewish Rabbinical Law and God's Law. The Jews trying to put you under Rabbinical law would make the Messiah teaching null, but by refusing God's law you do the same.
---Ed on 1/17/10


Paul9594 //Christ kept Sabbath, the Apostles, they even kept the Father's Feasts 30 to 35 INTO the church age, AFTER the resurrection of Christ, surprised?

Not at all, those who are capable of rightfully handling the word of Truth realize that Jesus was a Jew under the Old Covenant law. He was circumcised on the 8th day, probably did the various national feasts, the dietary laws, temple ordinances, etc.

However, it is clear from the scripture (not from the word of man) that such OT tenets were not required of Genitle converts. Acts 15, Gal.4:4f

When are you going to stop trying to make Jews out of Gentile believers?
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Fathers Appointed Days observed by Jesus Christ,the apostles or the Church in the New Testament!!

Passover of Leviticus 23:5

Matthew 26:2, 17-19,
Mark 14:12-16,
Luke 2:41-42, 22:1, 7-20,
John 2:13, 23, 6:4, 13:1-30,
1 Corinthians 11:23-29

Feast of Unleavened Leviticus 23:6-8

Matthew 26:17,
Mark 14:12,
Bread Luke 2:41-42, 22:1,7,
Acts 20:6,
1 Corinthians 5:6-8

Feast of Pentecost Leviticus 23:15-22

Acts 2:1 -21, 20:16,
1 Corinthians 16:8

Surprised!!!
You been listening to words of Men or the Words of the New Testament?

More Scriptures of Fathers Appointed days observed in New Testament coming up!!

Does the apostasy teach u what His feasts represent?
---Paul9594 on 1/17/10


Gordon //It matters not one whit that GOD is outside time and space.

I am glad that you agree with the Scripture in that God CREATED (or made) the Sabbath.

Effectively, it is NOT one of the attributes of God and since it is NOT eternal (did not exist prior to Creation), it will not be in the eternal life to come.

And it good to realize that man was created in the image of God, thus there is nothing within man that would indicate that Sabbath observance would be part of his nature.
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Send a Free Father's Day Ecard


Lee1538:

Why are still sharing words of men?

Christ kept Sabbath, the Apostles, they even kept the Father's Feasts 30 to 35 INTO the church age, AFTER the resurrection of Christ, surprised?

No Jews when Father gave Feasts: only Isralites!!

Did the apostasy teach you the feasts are Jewish?

Time tor read the Word.

Children it is good to do the commandment of the Sabbath, commandments means just that, they do not options. No where does say to void Sabbath!!

Did the apostates teach to void commandments, even the Sabbath?

Children keep His Word not the words of men.
---Paul9594 on 1/17/10


//"For almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [Lord's supper] on the Sabbath of every week." - Socrates Scholasticus, Eccl. History

Socrates according to some historical accounts was a member of the Novatian heresy.

While it is true there were pockets of Judaized Christians, there were a very small minority and most vanished after the established church become more influential.
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Lee1538, It matters not one whit that GOD is outside time and space. That has nothing to do with the fact that He, Himself, officially established and set up the 7th Day as a Holy, Sanctified Set-Apart Day of each week for mankind to observe, especially His own Church. And, this weekly Sabbath Day was to...ALWAYS...serve as a memorial for the 7th Day that He rested on, during the Creation Week. For, the 7-day week itself was a mark set of time that was patterned after the Creation Week. And, As man was created in GOD's Image, man was to "live out" each week in the "image" of the GOD's Creation Week. Except we are allowed more days-off from work, if desired, than just the 7th. ,-)
---Gordon on 1/17/10


Lee, you are correct that there was much strife between the Jews and the Gentiles. After the Jerusalem Council considered all the evidence, was that keeping the law and observing rituals were not requirements for salvation. The Judaizers were to cease troubling and annoying the Gentiles. Also James did not want the Gentiles to revel in their now freedom in Christ, which could cause the Jewish believers to follow that same liberty and violate their conscience. So James proposed that the Gentiles abstain from 4 pagan, idolatrous practices, that they were violations of the Law of Moses, so as not to offend the Jews. But were not requirements for all believers. The passages have to be read in their own context. Acts 15:1-21.
---MarkV. on 1/17/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Advertising


Was there more than one standard in the early church? One for the Jews and yet another for the Gentile believers?

We read of Jewish Christians wanting to force Titus to become circumcised.

Gal. 2,3-5 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Yet because of false brothers secretly brought inwho slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery- to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

If one submitted to circumcision -the rite of entrance into Judaism- one would also have to observe all the laws of Judaism including observance of the Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Yes, Jerry, church history confirms the fact that the Jewish faction of the church fled to Pella during the Jewish uprising of 70 A.d.

As stated before, the Jewish Christians continued to observe all the Mosaic laws and customs of the nation of Israel.

However, such was not the case with the Gentile church which afterwards inherited the leadership of the church.

Historians have no argument with the fact that Jewish converts to Christianity continued following in the Mosaic laws & customs but such was not forced on Gentile converts. That issue was to be settled at the Jerusalem council.
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


"For almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [Lord's supper] on the Sabbath of every week." - Socrates Scholasticus, Eccl. History

"Then the spiritual seed of Abraham [Christians] fled to Pella, on the other side of Jordan, where they found a safe place of refuge, and could serve their Master and keep His Sabbath." - Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History

Philo, the philosppher and historian, affirms that this Sabbath was on the seventh day of the week.
---jerry6593 on 1/17/10


"In the church of Milan (Italy) [4th Century] it seems that Saturday was held in fair esteem. Not that the Eastern churches or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Judaism, but that they came together on the Sabbath day to worship Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath." - Dr. Peter Heylyn, History of the Sabbath, London, 1636
---jerry6593 on 1/17/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Eating Disorders


Gina - //If this were true, we would have a double standard in place,...

Not only do the historical records attest to the fact that there were distinctions (and conflicts) between the Hebrew Christians and Gentile believers but also the Scripture tells of this.

We also read of this conflict in Acts 15 where they had to decide if Gentile converts has to conform to the Mosaic law.

Then the conflict Paul had with Peter when the latter came to Antioch. At first Peter ate with the Gentiles but when those that from James came from Jerusalem, he did an about face and refused to eat with the Gentiles. Read about it in Galatians 2.

I am surprised that you did not know of this!!!
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


Gina - //If this were true, we would have a double standard in place,...

Not only do the historical records attest to the fact that there were distinctions (and conflicts) between the Hebrew Christians and Gentile believers but also the Scripture tells of this.

First of all we read of this conflict in Acts 15 where they had to decide if Gentile converts has to circumcised and conform to the Mosaic law.

Then the conflict Paul had with Peter when the latter came to Antioch. At first Peter ate with the Gentiles but when those that from James came from Jerusalem, he did an about face and refused to eat with the Gentiles. Read about it in Galatians 2.

I am surprised that you did not know of this!!!
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Gina //The Sabbath is even more special now, not done away with!

Do you fault the Holy Spirit for not even mentioning that believers has to observe the Old Testament Sabbath?

Most clearly if the Lord desired us to observe the Jewish Sabbath, He would have commanded it either in the Gospels or by His Spirit in the writings of the Apostles. And He would also have instructed His disciples to have their successor teach it in the early church, but apparently they did not.

You really have no valid arguments to support the keeping of the Sabbath by His church.



---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Being that many of the early Christians were Jewish and continued in the Mosaic tradition, allowance was made for them to observe the Sabbath, but such was not imposed on the Gentile church.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10
If this were true, we would have a double standard in place, Jewish Christians observing the Sabbath under pain of death, claiming the words of the 4th commandment, while Gentile Christians did what they wanted on Sabbath with no punishment being done to them, claiming they did not have to obey! Imagine the uproar something of this magnitude would have accomplished! It would have been written about, called the impossible double standard of Christians, and done dispite to the law of God.
---Gina7 on 1/16/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Travel Packages


And the word of God does not tell the church to observe the Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10
Jesus did it by example. He is our example in all things, and He observed the Sabbath. He kept it as His custom was while alive, and in death He made it a memorial to His death. Jesus, who created us (John 1:1-3), then rested on the 7th day, also redeemed us, then rested on the 7th day (He was in the grave from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) therebye making the Sabbath the dual memorial of creation and redemption. In this way the NT shows the Sabbath is still to be observed, as a memorial of Jesus' redemption (as well as His creation, which the 4th commandment points out).
The Sabbath is even more special now, not done away with!
---Gina7 on 1/16/10


Jerry //...for salvation is of the Jews.

Yes, indeed as we read =

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." (Gal. 4:4-5)

When will you submit to the words of the Spirit of Jesus and be redeemed from the law?
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Gordon - We are in agreement with much you posted.

While morality reflects the attributes of God, Sabbath observance is not one of those attributes as God is beyond time and need not follow our calendar.

The Sabbath is not an eternal law as it only came into being at the end of Creation.

Moral law involved relationships among people and is universal. Romans 2:14 states Gentiles who followed their conscience did by nature what the law required despite the fact they did not have the law.

All the Gentiles were created in the image of God and a conscience given them by nature,however the word of God, not conscience should be our guide.

And the word of God does not tell the church to observe the Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


The Council of Laodecia (364 A,D,) was really a reaction against the Judaizing of the church.

As to Ambrose observing the Sabbath, "He claimed the Sabbath was a symbol of the ancient economy based on the sanctification of the law, while the 8th day (Sunday) represented the new economy sanctified by His [Christ] resurrection. The Christians 8th day for Ambrose begins here on the earth below since the 7th age of the world has ended and the grace of the 8th which made man not of this world but of above, has been revealed".

Ambrose, Explanatio Psalmi 47, CSEL 64, 347, cf. Epistola 26, 8, PL 16, 1088:

Meknows Jerry has little knowledge of church history and does not do his research.
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Repair


Thank you MarkV for your kind comments. Yes, we as Christians must continue to love others even if we can prove some things of what they believe to be wrong.

From the posts, I beleive we can recognize Samuel & Gordon as honest Christians believing in the basic essentials of the Christian faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

They merely try to practice what they believe. However, I believe they truly do not follow the OT Sabbath as it was prescribed but simply view the Sabbath as a day of communal worship established as a tradition.

If you caught any of them lighting a fire to cook their food on the Sabbath day you can truly rebuke them by using the scripture.
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Lee, thank you for not losing control and putting everything in order. You too Samuel for not getting upset and keeping order. I believe the one thing that really should matter to everyone is what Lee stated before,
"It is only a sin, if that is your conviction and you go against your conviction.
Romans 14:23b For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

That to me is one of the most important things to understand since the Spirit speaks to our conscious, and if we are convicted not to do something, whether the conviction is right or wrong we should not go against it, because of
"Romans 14:23b"
---MarkV. on 1/16/10


Lee1538, The statement that "if we seek to be justified by the Law, we are, then, under a Curse." simply means that if we try to get to Heaven by observing the Law, we will still be under the Curse of Damnation, because we can never live perfectly by the Law because of our sin nature via Adam. But, now, by GOD's Grace, through His Son's Blood Sacrifice, and our willingness to see our sin, REPENT of our sin, and to LIVE according to GOD's Holy Ways by the Presence, Power and Strength of the Holy Spirit SHKHINYAH, we can be upright before GOD. Lee, we have to try to walk in His Holy Ways. The Scripture is clear that "...without Holiness, no man shall see the LORD." That means neither entering into His Kingdom.
---Gordon on 1/16/10


Lee1538, You said, "....moral law is something that is universal and has to do with human relationships...." You worded that as if morality had almost nothing to do with GOD. Moral Living, and Morality itself, comes directly from GOD, for it is of His Nature. Morality has...EVERYTHING...to do with how man relates to GOD first. And, then, man's relationship with man, secondly. The 10 Commandments are a "break-down" of the Two Greatest Commandments that YAHUSHUA gave us. That is, Love GOD first, then our neighbour as ourselves. Of the 10 Commandments, the first FOUR pertain to man's relation with GOD. Commandments 5 thru 10 deal with mankind's relation to each other. The Sabbath deals with our relationship with GOD.
---Gordon on 1/16/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Products


Just curious, what do you anti-semites do with the scripture:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

It sounds like you don't know what you worship either. Do you, like the woman at the well, also live in sin and worship man-made idols?
---jerry6593 on 1/16/10


"From the apostles' time until the Council of Laodecia [364 AD], the holy observation of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." - John Ley, Sunday A Sabbath, London, 1640.

"Ambrose [4th Century], the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When in Rome, do as Rome does.'" - Dr. Peter Heylyn, History of the Sabbath, London, 1636.

Methinks the Mod needs to study history a bit more.
---jerry6593 on 1/16/10


Steveng - Yes, all things were in the mind of God long before the foundation of the world, even those whom He predestined to be saved. However, the Sabbath as a command given to man prior to the time of Moses can be nothing less than supposition on your part.

The Sabbath was given as a sign of the covenant God made only with the nation of Isreal (Exodus). If its observance was to be for the church, most certainly you would see at least a hint of some kind of command to observe it but you do not.

We are held accountable to God for what we do but that has to be based upon whatever commands He has given to us, but we see no command to observe any day as holy, thus clearly there can be no accountability on our part.
---Lee1538 on 1/16/10


Moderator: With all due respect, your header comment is not at all accurate. It was not Paul who "settled the issue" at the Jerusalem council as you have stated. Although he and Barnabas (Act 15:12), as well as Peter (act 15:7) gave testimonies, it was James - not Paul or Peter - who headed the Jerusalem council, vis:

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, JAMES answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:19,20 Wherefore MY SENTENCE IS, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
---jerry6593 on 1/16/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Divorce


Why did they command them to abstain
from blood and things strangled? (Acts 15:20)


Why did they say they could learn
what Moses taught on the Jewish Sabbath days? (Acts 15:21)


Here is an O.T. commandment

Leviticus 19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment:
thou shalt not respect the person of the poor,
nor honour the person of the mighty:
but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.


Here is a N.T. condemnation
resulting from breaking that O.T. commandment

James 2:9
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,

and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
---SuzieH on 1/16/10


From the book THE IMAGE OF GOD IN THIS GENERATION

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

If as some falsely claim, that early Gentile converts did not keep the Sabbath, then what would have heppened in this situation is that the whole city would have come together the NEXT DAY (Sunday) rather than the next Sabbath.

Why would they wait one whole week to hear the word of God, when it was being precahed the next day?

Would Paul not have wanted to worship on Sunday with these gentile converts?
---Francis on 1/16/10


The Ten Commandments were before Moses' time. They were before Abrahams' time. They were before Israel became a nation. They were before Noahs' time. And they will continue until all of God's plan for man be fulfilled.

In the beginning, the law (ten commandments) were instilled in people's heart, but as time went on, people's hearts grew cold and hardened as a rock. This is the reason God chose Moses to bring to the people a hard copy of the laws to refresh their memory. Cain sinned by killing Able thousands of years before Moses took the tablets to the people. Remember: the fourth commandment is the least of the commandments because rarely anyone observes it today - and will be observed when Jesus returns.
---Steveng on 1/15/10


Samuel -A covenant is liken to a last will & testament in that there can be some things in the older edition that did not made it into the newer edition.

And such was the Old Covenant Sabbath - nowhere found in the New Covenant of the church.

Being that many of the early Christians were Jewish and continued in the Mosaic tradition, allowance was made for them to observe the Sabbath, but such was not imposed on the Gentile church.

The early church leader was James who was murdered by the jewish religious leaders & succeed by his brother Simeon who was killed by the Romans after they fled to Petra according to church history. And after that the leadership of the church passed onward to the Gentiles.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Marriage


1 John 5:21 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Lee1538

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,
Exd 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This is not repeated so just mentioning Idols in the NT according to your statments does not apply. Just like stating Sabbath does not apply.
---Samuel on 1/15/10


Samuel -//The second commandment is not repeated in the New Testament.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

See 1 John 5:21 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

//Why did GOD do away with them (the 10 commandments)just to put them back in?

A covenant is liken to a last will & testament in that there can be something in the older edition that made it into the newer edition.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


Samuel //If the principal of the Sabbath is good and for today why not the Sabbath as the Commandment itself states instead of throwing out the wording of the Commandment?

And I agree with the principle, however, you should note that the Sabbath commandment is not stated or even implied in the New Covenant. In some views, Jesus became our rest for all who would believe have entered that rest as depicted by the commandment. (Hebrews 4)

Romans 14:5-6a One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


djconklin>You certainly have every right to observe any day you wish as holy, since Romans 14:5f states one may esteem one day over others or NONE at all.

//And what about the day God blessed and sanctified?

Is is not applicable to believers in the New Covenant of His church. If it were we would not see Romans 14:5-6 or Col. 2:16.

In the covenant of grace, law served it purpose to point out what sin was and was simply our schoolmaster or guardian UNTIL we could be justified by faith in Christ. Gal. 3:24f

How do you view Galatians 4:4f?

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those who were under the law, so we might receive adoption as sons.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Consolidation


Samuel - it appears that in your frustration you are trying to sidetrack the issue under discussion by trying to focus on other things rather than the issue of the Jewish Sabbath.
Lee1538

I am not frustrated. You state all of the Ten Commandments are done away with. You seem to be saying that nine were reinstated. The second commandment is not repeated in the New Testament. When were they put back in? Why did GOD do away with them just to put them back in? Why did HE not design all of the ten to stay in place as many Theologians done through History have taught and proclamed. If the pricipal of the Sabbath is good and for today why not the Sabbath as the Commandment itself states instead of throwing out the wording of the Commandment?
---Samuel on 1/15/10


Samuel -//What is the penalty enforced by society for bowing down to statues, lying, taking GOD's name in vain? GOD will judge all of us and enforce his penalty as He who is perfect can.

A very easy question to answer!!!

Ro 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

It is to God to whom we will give account. However, it is rather obvious that breaking the Sabbath is not a sin, nor will we be held accountable for any law not imposed on His church.

It is only a sin, if that is your conviction and you go against your conviction.

Romans 14:23b For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Hopefully what I post will enable you to see the truth.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


>You certainly have every right to observe any day you wish as holy, since Romans 14:5f states one may esteem one day over others or NONE at all.

And what about the day that God blessed and sanctified?
---djconklin on 1/15/10


Samuel //Do you believe that the laws of Leviticus 20:1-23 are done away with?

This section is addressed to the people of Israel concerning behavior that is forbidden - worship of Molech, familiar spirits, cursing parents, sexual misconduct.

You will find all of these issues addressed at least in principle form in the New Testament.

(20:15) And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

Never could understand why the beast should be held accountable. Perhaps our expert Jerry could elaborate on that one?
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Refinancing


Samuel - it appears that in your frustration you are trying to sidetrack the issue under discussion by trying to focus on other things (idol worship, lying, etc.) rather than the issue of the Jewish Sabbath.

All the commandments except the Sabbath commandment are found within the New Covenant. If you desire specific verses, I can supply that.

And yes, I can agree with you on the principle of the Sabbath - that one needs to rest from labor at least one day in 7. Even the various Confessions of the church agrees with that.

You certainly have every right to observe any day you wish as holy, since Romans 14:5f states one may esteem one day over others or NONE at all.
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


But how can the Jewish Sabbath be a moral law? It is not universal - something obseved by all societies, nor does it have anything to do with human relations. Lee1538

The majority of people do not obey GOD at all. Is his law against lying is done away with? Mankind needs to rest, needs to remeber GOD as his creator and spend time with GOD. This the Sabbath does.


Certainly you must agree that if keeping the OT sabbath was a moral law or anything of any importance, we would see it commanded in the NT and taught in the early church, but we do NOT. Lee1538

I do not see the command against worshipping graven images repeated. I see Sabbath being kept by JESUS and discussed. Why mention the sabbath if it was not in force?
---Samuel on 1/15/10


Good point Gordan how the law shows us we are sinners.

Also violation of moral law brings with it some sort of penalty. But if I work in the field on Saturday and take Sunday off, what penalty will I paid? Lee1538

What is the penalty enforced by society for bowing down to statues, lying, taking GOD's name in vain? GOD will judge all of us and enforce his penalty as He who is perfect can.

Finally Lee I know you teach that nine of the ten are still in force. But your statments often do not reflect your teaching. Think of the person who hears all of the Ten Commandments are done away with and not to be followed. Do you believe that the laws of Leviticus 20:1-23 are done away with?
---Samuel on 1/15/10


Gordon - thanks for your comment. However, salvation is not in observance of the Torah law but the "source of your life [is] in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 1 Cor. 1:30

If you seek to be justified by the law, then you are under a curse.

Gal. 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Since the Jewish Sabbath was not imposed on the church, certainly you will not be judged for not observing it. Acts 15
---Lee1538 on 1/15/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Franchises


Samuel //We simply teach the church should obey all ten.

There is really nothing wrong with that since under the New Covenant of the church Romans 14:5 one may esteem one day or none at all.

I am convinced in my mind there is nothing in the New Testament that mandates the observance of the Sabbath, nor was it taught by the early church.

I do not regard Sunday as a replacement for the Jewish Sabbath. It is simply the day we gather for communal worship and rest in accordance with the tradition established by the early church. Lee1538

Now this is a valid argument. But you most often say the Ten Commandments are done away with. Which is contray to your point here. So which is correct all ten gone or what you say here?
---Samuel on 1/15/10


Lee1538, Paul called the 10 Holy Laws in Stone a "Ministration of Death" because it showed the people how they were supposed to live and the people KNEW that they could not live up to GOD's Laws as He expected them to. It therefore convicted them of their need for Help that only GOD Himself could give. Thus showing them their need for the promised Redeemer. But, even though they could not, of themselves, live perfectly according to the 10 Laws, their awareness of their "need for GOD's Help" showed them, shows us, that we are to SOMEHOW, SOMEWAY live according to those 10 Laws. And, that Way is by the Holy Spirit, which comes to us ONLY by receiving YAHUSHUA (JESUS) as our Lord and Saviour by GRACE THROUGH FAITH.
---Gordon on 1/15/10


Samuel // I do not know of anyone here who teaches that Moral laws and precepts are done away with.

But how can the Jewish Sabbath be a moral law? It is not universal - something obseved by all societies, nor does it have anything to do with human relations.

Certainly you must agree that if keeping the OT sabbath was a moral law or anything of any importance, we would see it commanded in the NT and taught in the early church, but we do NOT.

Also violation of moral law brings with it some sort of penalty. But if I work in the field on Saturday and take Sunday off, what penalty will I paid? If you answered none, your probably got the right answer.
---Lee1538 on 1/14/10


Gordon //So many people believe that being "under Grace" means that we aren't required to obey GOD's 10 Mandates.

If we believe we must observe the ten commandments then why did Paul refer to them as 'the ministry of death & condemnation craved on stone"? 2 Cor. 3:7,9

Are we not to walk by faith, (Romans 1:17,Gal. 3:10) obey His Spirit instead of the law, of which we cannot be justified (declared righteous)? Gal.2:16

Yes, while we certainly have an obligation to moral law (moral law is something that is universal and has to do with human relationships), how can the observance of a day be a moral law?
---Lee1538 on 1/14/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Lead Generation


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law defines sin. To live in sin is to be under the law. The Moral requriements and principals of all the Mosaic law apply to Christians. Unless you teach that Christians can live in sin. Read 1st John
---Samuel on 1/14/10


First those who were called judaizers were saying that rites or sacrements helped earn salvation which is a false teaching. This went along with the teaching that your works help to save you. Many consider not sinning to be a work. But it is not a work it is an obligation which does not save.

Luke 17:9, 10 Nasb He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves, we have done {only} that which we ought to have done.' "

There are many Moral laws and precepts in the Mosaic law. I do not know of anyone here who teaches that Moral laws and precepts are done away with. Who here thinks it is okay to sin?
---Samuel on 1/14/10


Moderator, The issue of "not being under the Law, but under Grace" is that the shed Blood of YAHUSHUA (JESUS) opens the Door for us to be able to receive Grace. For none of us can ever get into Heaven by obeying the Ten Commandments, because our sin nature prevents us from ever living up to GOD's expectations. But, GOD does want us to TRY to obey His Laws, by His Spirit's Strength. When we are trying to obey His Laws, and then we sin, He forgives us by YAHUSHUA's Blood. But, He expects us to get back up and keep on trying. So many people believe that being "under Grace" means that we aren't required to obey GOD's 10 Mandates. But, YAHUSHUA died because we weren't able to obey. Now, with His Spirit, we CAN obey.
---Gordon on 1/14/10


Judaizers refers to those who claim the necessity of obedience to the Torah Laws by Christians, which is normally considered a requisite only for the followers of Judaism. To better understand why parts of the New Testament were written, one needs to know to whom and why Paul was writing the Epistles. Without that basic knowledge, one is hopelessly coming up with bad doctrine.
---Moderator on 1/14/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages


Mod: "Paul called the Judaizers false teachers."

I can't find the word "Judaizers" in my Bible. What version are you using?
---jerry6593 on 1/14/10


the jewish assembly at jerusalem, headed by the 12 apostles of israel were trying to impose mosaic law on paul's predominately gentile converts. paul and barnabas straightened things out. Acts 15, Gal. 2 same account, all we have to do is read it and BELIEVE IT.
---michaele on 1/13/10


Unless you think that St. Paul was some kind of proto-pope, St. Peter is actually recorded as saying more about how much of Torah Gentiles were to follow at this council.

And Sts. Peter and Paul were NOT the only ones who had things to say on this issue.

The matter was settled by CONSENSUS, not by one person.
---Cluny on 1/13/10


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.