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Circumcised Like Moses

Acts 15:1, "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." Do you understand what this verse speaks of works?

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Hebrews 5:11_14,
"...ye have need that one teach you again..."
"...one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness..."
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Philippians 2:16: "Holding forth the word of life, that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."
Galatians 2:2 "... lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."
Galatians 4:11: "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
---Nana on 2/9/10


Nana:

Your postings I've seen are well centered on the Truth.

You understand the power of the Holy Spirit, if we do our part dying to self, so we can reflect the likeness of Christ.

But not everyone can get this measure of faith, unless they hear the gospel of truth and its power.

I'm glad you are one who shares well centered truth to increase faith in the power of His cross.


The Father bless u.
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


Everyone is under some set of "laws". If not, they are lawless.

As I see it, those who call themselves Christians either:
(1) Strictly follow a combination of instructions written in both testaments.
(2) Strictly follow instructions written only in the new testament.
(3) Circumstantially follow instructions found in either testament.
(4) Claim grace as a justification to live as they please.
---AG on 2/9/10


Nana //What manner of love is required must be taught and learned.

By Whom?

As to love towards God & others, it is the Holy Spirit that dwells within the believer that is the main teacher as all the laws in the world cannot change what is within the person and make him or her love others.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything-and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you-abide in him.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


What manner of love is required must be taught and learned.
Isaiah 7:15: "..., that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."
Luke 3:10: "And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?", and John provided an answer.
Paul said Galatians 5:14: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, ...."
Yet he also said:
Gal 5:21, "... as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Ephesians 6:2: "Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)"
1 Cor 6:18: "Flee fornication...."

Why the specifics if not needed? Is he teaching the knowledge of sin?
---Nana on 2/8/10




djconklin //What I "pitch" is what Jesus said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Sabbaterians are trained to believe that everytime the word 'commandments' are mentioned in the Bible, it has to mean the 10 commandments. As such they add to the word of God.

There are 2 commandments John tells us that we must obey. One being to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and the other to love ones neighbor. 1 John 3:23

Golly if love of neighbor is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10)-btw the Sabbath commandment is a law, then one need not observe the Jewish Sabbath.

The biggy question is what has the Jewish Sabbath to do with love of neighbor? If you answered nothing, you got the right answer.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


>when you pitch obedience to laws (Sabbath, dietary) found ONLY in the Old Covenant, you essentially are a Judaizer, for that was what they were doing.

I do NOT pitch obedience as the Judaizers were doing. Read Galatians where Paul dealt with them--they sought salvation by their obedience and paul showed that it doesn't work that way. Then in Romans he shows that the law is "holy, just and good" and points out our sins, and thus our need of a Saviour.

What I "pitch" is what Jesus said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
---djconklin on 2/8/10


>the Judaizers & their decendents, the Spirit is NOT enough, you have to observe the OT Sabbath.

1) The Judaizers never said that you had to keep the Sabbath. The early Christians were already doing that.
2) The Sabbath was made before sin entered into the world and we'll be keeping it in heaven--that alone tells you that we should be keeping it al the time in between as well.
3) You also must not kill, steal, lie, etc.. These are sins. The wages of sin is death: do you want to live or die?
---djconklin on 2/8/10


djconklin - the first definition of Judaizers that I used was from Websters dictionary,the second from Westminster. There really is not much difference between the two.

In any case, when you pitch obedience to laws (Sabbath, dietary) found ONLY in the Old Covenant, you essentially are a Judaizer, for that was what they were doing.

Ga 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

No, no, no, no, no says the Judaizers & their decendents, the Spirit is NOT enough, you have to observe the OT Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


djconklin //Jesus said If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I have no problem with that as those commandments we are to keep are basically 2 according to 1 John 3:23 - to believe on Jesus whom God has sent, and to love one another. See also Romans 13:10

However, if you say we need to obey all the commandments found in the Old Testament, then should we observe the national feasts of Unleavened Bread, of Harvest, and of Ingathering as clearly commanded in Exodus 23? These feasts have meaning only for the nation of Israel, but were they written on your heart like the other commandments - never annulled by the New Cov?.

Perhaps you should consider joining the Reformed SDA so you can be more in compliance with God's laws?
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10




>Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms

You said that you used a dictionary definition and not the theological definition. Which is it?
---djconklin on 2/5/10


>I do not see anything either dictionaries, that Judaizers considered compliance to Jewish law as mandatory for salvation.

One dictionary, not "either." It is implied.
---djconklin on 2/5/10


djconklin //When discussing theology, one should use theological definitions to avoid confusion.

Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms -

Judaizers - those in the early church who sought to impose the Jewish laws and rites on Christian believers.

Judaizing movements - Those movements throughout the history of the Christian church which have sought to mix elements of Judaism with Christianity.

I do not see anything either dictionaries, that Judaizers considered compliance to Jewish law as mandatory for salvation.

However they may have liken to what Neo Judaizers believe today that one must observe certain Jewish laws (Sabbath observane, dietary laws, etc.) in order to be saved.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


>I used the dictionarly definition, not the theological one which may or may not state adherence to law is a requirement for salvation according to Judaizers.

When discussing theology, one should use theological definitions to avoid confusion.
---djconklin on 2/5/10


>Obedience to law is EXTERNAL but does not change the heart.

That's is assumed--this is what happens when one uses definitions based on the world and not those of the Bible. When a child obeys their parents it is done out of love for them. Same with the mature Christian who loves God with all his heart, mind and strength. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
---djconklin on 2/5/10


Mat 22:37-40 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you feel compelled to follow the law of Moses, it's OK. But kindly don't judge other Christians who don't.
---Donna66 on 2/4/10

Amen Donna.
Really if a Christian is following the 2 laws Christ gave, then they are fulfilling the rest of them. Do things because tells you to and because you love him! not because man tells you to do it.
---miche3754 on 2/5/10


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djconklin - I used the dictionarly definition, not the theological one which may or may not state adherence to law is a requirement for salvation according to Judaizers.

//Strict adherence to the laws of God out of love for Him and what He done for us

Christians are to walk by faith in His Spirit for therein they have the internal guidance and discipline of the Holy Spirit. Obedience to law is EXTERNAL but does not change the heart.

The law cannot make one righteous or gain the blessings of God, nor does one become more spiritual in obedience to law.

Unfortunately all too many today believe that we should make the old nature obey the law of God,but the flesh avails nothing.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


Hear what Christ teaches as He spoke to the Jews:Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me?

Again, Jesus is addressing the JEWS, to whom Moses gave the law.

One greater than Moses (i.e. Jesus) gave this law in the NT and it was spoken to the Jews also
Mat 22:37-40 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you feel compelled to follow the law of Moses, it's OK. But kindly don't judge other Christians who don't.
---Donna66 on 2/4/10


>a legalist by definition is one who adheres to the letter of the law, strict interpretation of a law, rule, or religious or moral code.

Plus the clause: in order to be saved.

Strict adherence to the laws of God out of love for Him and what He done for us isn't legalism.
---djconklin on 2/4/10


Paul9594 - a legalist by definition is one who adheres to the letter of the law, strict interpretation of a law, rule, or religious or moral code.

And commonly thought to be one who often uses the law as a means of measuring the spirituality of others - a judgment they really have not right to make.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

But such are those who believe the church is still under the old Torah law, that the Jerusalem council was only about circumcision of Gentiles, failing to realize the such was the entrance into Judaism.
---Lee1538 on 1/31/10


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Some say that the Jews kept the Law? And where legalists?

Hear what Christ teaches as He spoke to the Jews:

Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me?

None of them did the Law!!

The Word of Christ and teaching of men is always different!

Their legalism had to do with them doing their own traditions and making void the Spiritual Law/instructions!!

Good messengers will teach ALL ALL ALL of what Christ said unto us, John 14:26

---Paul9594 on 1/31/10


Shane -//No your wrong Hebrew was not a dead langage back then. It became dead after 70AD havent you heard of the Hebrew matthew manuscript?

Glad that you admit to that!

No, I have always heard that Matthew was written in Aramaic, not Hebrew.

While the language of the street was mostly Aramaic, Hebrew continued to be used by the elite religious establishment. The Dead Sea Scrolls seem to confirm that much. However, Greek, not Hebrew was the lingua franca commonly used throughout the Mediterrean world.

So the contention that the New Testament was written in Hebrew cannot be support at all, neither is there any written New Testament documents written in Hebrew in existence that I know of.
---Lee1538 on 1/29/10


We do not have to be circumcised after the manner of Moses. We DO have to be circumcised in our hearts.

When you are circumcised in your heart, you do what God tells you to do and you obey him.

Mima, you want so bad to get around obeying God when you can't. The word of God says so.

Those who are God's sheep, hear and obey his voice and do what he tells them to do.
They do this because they are in Christ and Christ is in them.
FAITH + WORKS, Mima. NOT faith with NO works.
---miche3754 on 1/29/10


Without looking up the passage there were certain Jews whom were pushing their dead dogma of Old testament Laws on the new Christians, telling them they had to follow the old laws in order to be acceptable to God: But Jesus said not so, he warned them to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, for once God sets you free from Egypt, then God forbid that you go back down again into the bondage and under the curse. The Galatians were notorious for this, and in the book of Galatians Paul spells out this sin.
---Eloy on 1/29/10


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Shane:

Good points!!!


True Seed is coming alive bearing true fruit!
---Paul9594 on 1/28/10


No your wrong Hebrew was not a dead langage back then. It became dead after 70AD havent you heard of the Hebrew matthew manuscript?
---Shane on 1/28/10


Paul9594 //The Renewed Covenant translation would be accordance to Scripture:

Not true at all. One principle in translating the Bible from the ancient languages is that the selection of the English words must conform to what is viewed as basic Christian doctrine.

The Bible does NOT say 'Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a RENEWED covenant with the house of Israel ...'

If you say 'renewed covenant' then you are at odds with every known translators of the Bible, many of whom are far superior to you in knowledge, training and spirituality.

And who are you that we should believe you over what they say?
---Lee1538 on 1/27/10


//Why would I want to keep doctrines that do not have Hebrew Scripture backing it up.

Because nearly all of the New Testament was written in Greek, not in Hebrew which was largely a dead language during that period.

The New Testament was largely written in Greek as Greek was the lingua franca (the most common language of merchants & traders)of the Mediterrean Basin and could be read by the various churches.

//Time to MASTER Hebrew, Greek?

To be proficient in these languages you really need about 4 good years of study. However, why waste the time when there are available many experts in these languages to whom you can tap into for their knowledge?
---Lee1538 on 1/27/10


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The Renewed Covenant translation would be accordance to Scripture:

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

You POINT OUT ONE phrase of mine that is supposely not in the bible?

BUT u don't point to the numerous coined terms and words you add, that are not in the Bible! Isn't this hypocritical?

Why would I want to keep doctrines that do not have Hebrew Scripture backing it up.

Time to MASTER Hebrew, Greek?
---Paul9594 on 1/26/10


//Stop adding to the word of The Father.

According to the doctrine of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. So the words of God in the Old Testament are also the words of Christ.

Are you going to tell me that you are so far away from the orthodox Christian faith that you do not believe in the trinity?

//Time to learn Greek, Hebrew?

I took a course in Greek once and also started Hebrew. However, to be really proficient in those languages, you really need 2 to 3 years study. It is simpler to tap into the knowledge of those who are experts in those areas as we do not have the same calling as they have.
---Lee1538 on 1/26/10


Lee1538:
U said:
The words of Moses and the Prophets were also the 'words of Christ', however, these are the words of the Old Covenant dispensation not not the New Covenant of His Church.///

Stop adding to the word of The Father.

The word dispensation is not anywhere in the original writings of the Bible.

Time to learn Hebrew, Greek?
---Paul9594 on 1/26/10


//The word 4 "New" in HE-brew has in it, the HE-brew primitive root meaning renew, repair.

While like in the Greek, there can be a choice of the English word that would describe any word in the ancient languages, the selection must reflect what is considered basic Christian doctrine.

But the word 'renew' would deny that the covenant God promised to make with Israel would be 'UNLIKE the covenant I made with them when I brought them out of Egypt'. Jer. 31:32, Hebrews 8:9.

So basically what you have by using 'renew' is simply a re-hash of the Old Sinai covenant.

I am amazed how far from orthodox Christian doctrine you must go to justify your Judaizing beliefs.
---Lee1538 on 1/26/10


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Lee1538:
U posted:
you object to the term 'New Covenant of the church',b/c it is not found in the Bible, you use the term 'renewed covenant' which is not in the Bible,///


The word 4 "New" in HE-brew has in it, the HE-brew primitive root meaning renew, repair!
The Renewed Covenant can be a translation instead of New.
Surprised? Study Torah!

This translation In accordance to:

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

You POINT OUT ONE phrase of mine that is supposely not in the bible?

BUT u don't point to the numerous coined terms and words you add, that are not in the Bible! Isn't this hypocritical?
---Paul9594 on 1/25/10


Paul9594 //These intances are seen in the original Hebrew language the Renewed Covenant was written in!

While you object to the term 'New Covenant of the church',b/c it is not found in the Bible, you use the term 'renewed covenant' which also is not in the Bible, to make the New Covenant simply a rehash of the Old Covenant.

Sorry, but the Lord made a NEW Covenant with Israel, not a 'renewed' covenant.

And the New covenant superceded the Old Covenant making it obsolete as to its essentials.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

when the temple worship stopped, that ended the Old Covenant dispensation.
---Lee1538 on 1/24/10


Gordon //Only the spiritual Circumcision of the heart is required.

While that is true, the issue at the Jerusalem council was simply whether Gentile converts (who had already born again) had to follow in the Jewish religion, circumcision being the entrance rite into Judaism.

In any case, the decision made clear that Gentiles need not become Jewish in order to be saved. However, the conflict between Jews & Gentiles continued long after the Council made its decision.

We see Paul battling the Jews over whether Titus was to be circumcised (Ga. 2:3) and often castigating the so-called 'circumcision party'.Acts 11:2, Gal. 2:12, Tit. 1:10
---Lee1538 on 1/24/10


Lee1538:
//While most of us will make a distinction between the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, there are some that view the Torah as simply a part of the Talmud.///

Question is not:
How do others view the Torah?
Question is:
Just what parts of the Bible does Christ hold to be the Torah?

Christ quotes directly from the Law and the Prophets at least 24 times, in the New Covenant writings, and called it "Torah" a good number of times, at other times he referred His Word as the Torah and the Prophets(Luke 24:44). These intances are seen in the original Hebrew language the Renewed Covenant was written in! The Torah does have a chief cornerstone foundation, the first five books of Moses.


---Paul9594 on 1/23/10


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Lee1538, Exactly, in regards to the Brethren, those who were already saved. These "certain men" tried to convince the Brethren that they had to be circumcised in the flesh as a requirement from GOD. We know that it is not a requirement with GOD to be circumcised in the flesh in order to receive Salvation, neither to maintain Salvation. Only the spiritual Circumcision of the heart is required.
---Gordon on 1/23/10


Gordon -//The Jews here were telling certain male Gentiles, who wanted to be saved,...

Probably not because once they had heard the gospel message they received Christ into their lives and were born again of Him unto salvation. It was only after that certain Jews requested of them that they be physically circumcised AND "keep the laws of Moses" (Acts 15:5) that they had a problem.

It is much the same story as with Peter bringing the Gospel message to Cornelius who upon hearing were filled with God's Holy Spirit. They were not circumcised or even told to do so.

And Peter in his defense stated: "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
---Lee1538 on 1/22/10


The Jews here were telling certain male Gentiles, who wanted to be saved, or looking into it, that they had to be circumcised to be saved. But, Circumcision of the flesh is not a requirement by GOD for Salvation. It's not even one of the "10 Commandments". We enter Salvation by the repentance of sin, which is answered by the forgiveness of those sins, through the Atoning Blood of YAHUSHUA (JESUS). Then, the Door is opened for us to live in Holiness, and do good works. To work out our Salvation with FEAR and Trembling.
---Gordon on 1/22/10


//Use a concordance.

Better yet a good commentary written by one who is full of God's Spirit and has been called into the ministry of teaching His word.

Of course in doing that, i.e. learning from those who are more educated and trained in the word of God, makes wreak of some of the arguments made that we are not under grace but still under the Old Covenant dispensation.

As such, works of the law as Sabbath keeping, observing the national Jewish feasts, Levitical dietary law, new moon observances, howling at a blue moon, etc. would fall by the wayside.

Galatians 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.
---Lee1538 on 1/21/10


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Paul9594 //Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their
>>> FRUITS <<< ye shall know them. ...ISN'T IT SAVE to APPLY words of Christ that DON'T PASS AWAY?

The words of Moses and the Prophets were also the 'words of Christ', however, these are the words of the Old Covenant dispensation not not the New Covenant of His Church. And the words of Jesus prior to the Cross are of that old Covenant dispensation if not found within the New Covenant.

Those that promote the keeping of the Sabbath and other Torah laws are the legalists who are truly the slave children of Hagar from Mt. Sinai. They are not not not the children of the Promise given to Abraham.



---Lee1538 on 1/21/10


Paul9594 - While most of us will make a distinction between the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings, there are some that view the Torah as simply a part of the Talmud.

Most common definition is from the dictionary. Torah =

1. five books of Moses: the Jewish Pentateuch, or a parchment scroll on which the Pentateuch is written for use in services in synagogues.

2. Jewish scripture: the collective body of Jewish teaching embodied in the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud.
---Lee1538 on 1/21/10


Lee1538:
U said:
By definition Torah refers to the LAW, not the Prophets or Writings.///

Incorrect The Hebrew word torah is Strong's H8451

The word torah, is found Genesis 26:5, Exodus 12:49, and in other places in the Word.

Use a concordance.

I said in the Law and the Prophets, what you incorrectly call O.T., you will find the word Torah in different passages all over, uttered at times by the Father Himself!

Will u also void the original words of the Hebrew language in which The Law and the Prophets was written in?

Boy, we are really getting to know you!
---Paul9594 on 1/20/10


Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their
>>> FRUITS <<< ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,
22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work LAWLESSNESS.

ISN'T IT SAVE to APPLY words of Christ that DON'T PASS AWAY?

Mark 13:31
Heaven and :earth shall pass
away: but my :words >>> shall not <<< pass away.

keeping the Law TO OBTAIN SALVATION does not save.

But MIGHTY works ALONE is NOT the complete fruits of Seed, the Word , Luke 8:11.
---Paul9594 on 1/20/10


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Paul9594 //The Law and the Prophets, ... has the Hebrew word torah all over. Surprised?
----
not 'surprised' you continue to be wrong!

By definition Torah refers to the LAW, not the Prophets or Writings.

The law & the prophets witnessed of the righteousness of God w/o the law, that it is through faith that one is counted as righteous

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL who believe. [and] are justified by his grace as a gift, thru the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10


Lee1538:

The Law and the Prophets, as called by Christ, has the Hebrew word torah all over.

Surprised?

Well, your School didn't teach you this?

The Father Himself utters this words many many times reffering to his teachings and instructions, some in the form of commandments!


Better go to a real school that teaches this basic and wide used word, by my Father himself!
---Paul9594 on 1/20/10


Ed:

Well said, but apparently the words of Christ have no free course in him, that he voids them!

We have pray for this man.
---Paul9594 on 1/20/10


Paul9594 //Can u lay wastethe words from Christ's lips, on judgment day?

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Perhaps the gospel you promote is simply that 'another gospel' Paul condemns in the epistle to the Gatalians (1:8)and really depicts a Jesus that is a liar?
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10


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Ed//You must remember that the Messiah was a Jew, who was also circumcised!

However we should not ignore the fact that "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons". Gal. 4:4-5

If you insist that Christians do not live by faith (Romans 1:17, Gal.3:11)but by works, you are a legalists, having a soterilogy of works. Jesus is not your savior therefore but salvation is in your own hands.
---Lee1538 on 1/20/10


Lee1538
You must remember that the Messiah was a Jew, who was also circumcised! If you have the HOLY SPIRIT in you then you must follow his ways. Circumcision of the heart is all it take to be in compliance with the Law of GOD. If you do not follow his ways you don't have the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT. It does what the Messiah says it does, one scripture at a time. However the 10 Commandments are the word of GOD the Creator of the Earth and Heavens. If this offends you, I am sorry.
---Ed on 1/19/10


Lee1538:

U said:
What you have to offer is a return to Judaism.///

No, I'm not into Judaism, it is not taught by His word.

The Father saids, meditate on my Word, not meditate on their commentaries.

What I do offer is what the Bible teaches.

For one I offer a return to a faith of power because its connected to the The Father,of Abraham.

Have you been told the whole truth about our example Abraham?

He was a man of Faith that kept His torah!

If the Father accepted Abraham even though He kept His law, why would He reject you? If you do the same?

---Paul9594 on 1/19/10


Lee1538:
You must be really desperate as apparently most of your arguments have been laid waste.///

Can u lay wastethe words from Christ's lips, on judgment day?

7:20 Wherefore by their FRUITS YOU shall know them
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work LAWLESSNESS.

Believers with MIGHTY WORKS but LAWLESS, GET surprise entrance into hell!

BE on the safe side, with faith in Christ keep the commandments because this is impossible to do without faith in Christ!
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10


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Paul9594 //Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

It is doubtful if anyone on this forum does not agree that we must keep the commandments of our Lord.

However, your contention is that the commandments we should keep are the old Torah law commandments rather than the commandments John is speaking of, namely to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ whom God has sent and to love ones neighbor. 1 John 3:23.

Sorry but that faith that we follow is that "faith that was once for all delivered to the saints". Jude 3

What you have to offer is a return to Judaism.

When are you going to stop trying to convert Gentile believers into becoming Jews?
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


Lee1538:

U said:
You must be really desperate as apparently most of your arguments have been laid waste.///

Why would I BE desparate, Can u lay waste
the words of Christ!

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Pro 30:5 EVERY word of God [is] PURE: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Read Christ's words, lately? u have forgotten them!
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10


//And many of the terms lee1538 uses to justify HIS doctrines.

The word you often use & promote is 'torah' is also NOT found in the Bible.

The words I use fully describe the issues at hand and are not new for those trained in the Word of God.

Yes, If I were Jewish (even Messianic Jewish), I would truly treasure the old Torah - the first 5 books of Moses- as they foretell Christ & His ministry. All the types in the Old Testament have their fulfillment Christ Jesus.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures (OT) because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about me, ...

You must be really desperate as apparently most of your arguments have been laid waste.
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


Why the very elect don't listen to men with new coined terms, words not found in the word, that set foundational doctrine?

The Word forbids this, should not good men OF THE FATHER follow instructions in the Word?

Proverbs 30:5 EVERY >>> word of God <<< [is] PURE: he [is] a SHIELD unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add >>> thou NOT <<< unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a LIAR.

EXAMPLES OF ADDED WORD, TERMS THAT SET UNBLIBICAL DOCTRINES:

RITUALS OF THE LAW
OLD TORAH LAW
LEGALISTIC RELIGIOUS SYSTEM
New Covenant of the Church
And many of the terms lee1538 uses to justify HIS doctrines.
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10


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The role of the Torah is different depending who it is applied to!

For the unsaved a curse, does not see the value of it. Its just bondage, sin, old archaic laws, legalism dont apply! So sin reigns with them because theyre not able to meet its standards, and wages of sin is death! They do not what sin is.

For the one who has entered salvation by Faith. He begins to understand its the Law of righteousness, holy, just good, spiritual. Believer grows to be more empowered to walk after it, by faith, that which he cannot complete perfectly, Christ does, as believer becomes united to His righteousness!

Has the apostasy taught you different? Repent begin with 10 commandments, if u are lawless hear Matthew 7:20-23!!
---Paul9594 on 1/19/10


matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The question here is whether the Torah was imposed on Gentiles believers or were they just instructed simply to "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality"?
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


Physical circumcision does not count for anything -

Gal. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Faith working thru love does produce works that reflect the righteousness of God and thus fulfills the law.

Ga 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

The New Creation brings with it, a desire to please the Lord in all areas of ones life.
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


Under the new covenant, physical circumcision is meaningless. It is the circumcision of the heart that God is concerned with. "He who is a Jew inwardly" is of importance. Circumcision availeth nothing. We are no longer under the law of Moses but under the law of liberty , grace and faith in Jesus Christ.
---jody on 1/18/10


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Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Must the believer who has been placed in Christ observe the Old Torah law or simply abide in Christ who is our rigtheousness, redemption & sanctification? 1 Cor. 1:30

The Christian faith is a relationship with the living Lord, not some kind of legalistic religious system.
---Lee1538 on 1/19/10


The Teachings and instruction of Christ:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven:

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I spake not from myself, but the
>>> Father <<< that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that HIS commandment is LIFE ETERNAL:

Who here does not consent to the words of Christ?

Can you explain yourself?
---Paul9594 on 1/18/10


Lee1538 on 1/18/10

i agree and you can add gal 2 it is the same account
---michael_e on 1/18/10


ISSUE is: Circumcision on all Gentiles FOR salvation!

The >> WHOLE <<< Law of Moses as TRUE issue is read into this passage WHEN IS NOT!

Mal 4:4 .>> REMEMBER ye the >>> Law of Moses <<> EVEN << statutes and ordinances.

5 ...I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the great and TERRIBLE day of Jehovah come.

Spirit of Elijah IS RESTORING!

Only the VERY ELECT receive, begin 2 understand the UNLEAVENED BREAD, following is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, to enpower those who believe in the restoring! DOMINATING doctrines teach LEAVENED bread! This was the pattern in Christ's day!

Is there anything new under the sun? Eccl. 1:9, NO!!
---Paul9594 on 1/18/10


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Acts 15:9-10 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles to that conclusion. Thus laws that were strictly Jewish in nature - circumcision, the Sabbath, dietary laws, etc. -were not required of Gentile converts.

I fail to see why people cannot read that section and understand that.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


You need to read the rest of the chapter through verse 11. After these men said that, Paul and the other apostles corrected them saying that is was not necessary for the gentiles to be circumcised because they have been purified in their hearts, and that it is by grace you have been saved, just as you are. Read Paul's explanation in verses 9 & 11. Whoever showed you this scripture took it out of context to make it appear that it was what God said but it was actually there to reveal a wrong teaching.
---Jed on 1/18/10


Rhonda - judging from you reaction, you apparently agree that physical circumcision is the rite of entrance into Judaism. If you ask any Jew what you must do to convert to Judaism, circumcision of males is the FIRST thing he will tell you.

And yes we can all agree that religion can cloud anyones understanding of the Bible and that is why we should seek to follow Jesus rather than religion. It is religion that teaches such rituals as keeping the Jewish Sabbath, dietary laws, etc. are essential whereas the gospel does not teach that at all.
---Lee1538 on 1/18/10


Circumcision, animal sacrifice are ceremonial laws that should be work out, or perform in the Old Testament. In the New Testament...baptism, participation of Last Supper, church attendance, sinners prayer....were also ceremonial laws. It is WORK AND IT DOES NOT SAVE.

Although all Israel, observe circumcision... it does not mean they are save. Few are save only those ELECT,

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
---ROSALIE on 1/17/10


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Lee// First of all the statement that you can not be save unless you get circumcised like Mosses is a lie. That is not what the Bible says. Second for 40 years after Mosses led the Tribes of Israel out of Egypt God forbid anyone from being circumcised, and I don't think all of the people that died uncircumcised at that time was unsaved.
---Ed on 1/17/10


Lee/ / Getting circumcised is saying you are a chosen one of God through Abraham covenant ,or promise if you wish with GOD. Mosses was not Jewish, he was of the Levi tribe, and he taught that being circumcised of the heart was what GOD wanted most.
---Ed on 1/17/10


circumcision is the rite of entrance into the Jewish religion. Once that occurs, one is obligated to observe all the law of Moses including the dietary laws, national feasts, as well as the Old Testament Sabbath(s).
****

how absurd!!

REALITY CHECK for the rest of us - it is for health related purposes ...guess RELIGIOUS "christianity" ...all those non-jew men gotta be educated that they are "really" under law of Moses

RELIGION can certainly cloud ANY truth through distorted misunderstanding to support whatever non-biblical agenda they have corrupted in their "religious christianity" and SELL something unrelated to Holy Word of God and dupe people by simply quoting from Scripture
---Rhonda on 1/17/10


What too many people do not realize is that circumcision is the rite of entrance into the Jewish religion. Once that occurs, one is obligated to observe all the law of Moses including the dietary laws, national feasts, as well as the Old Testament Sabbath(s).

The law of Moses from the dictionary signifies the whole body of Mosaic legislation (1 Kings 2:3, II Kings 23:25, Ezra 3:2)

1 Kings 2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, ...
---Lee1538 on 1/17/10


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absolutely Acts 15 speaks of works. Paul explains it a little better in Gal 2 and meeting with the leaders of the jerusalem assembly peter, james and john
---michael_e on 1/14/10


No.

It's talking about becoming Jews and adopting the practices of Judaism.

Galatians also deals with this issue in more depth.

It's not talking about works as such, because the VERY Jewish Reb Yacov of Jerusalem said, "Faith without works is dead." James 2:22, 24, 26.
---Cluny on 1/13/10


The men mentioned in Acts 15:1 were Jewish Christian who believed that Gentile converts must be circumcised and observe the law of Moses in order to be saved.

Circumcision was the rite of entrance into the Jewish religion. And if one partook of that rite, he would be obligated to observe all the unique law of Judaism including Sabbath observance, the dietary laws, etc.

Unfortunately the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) did not persuade the Jewish faction of the church and Paul had to fight with them at every turn.

Fortunately the church did not become just another sect of Judaism becuase if they had, they may have been destroyed during the Jewish rebellions (70 & 135 A.D).
---lee1538 on 1/13/10


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