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God Uses Floods Famines

Do you believe God used floods, famines, and illness to punish during biblical times? Do you believe God would still employ disaster to punish in modern times? Why or why not? Thanks!

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Lee, words are defined by context-Genesis 41:54-57 'eres' is used to mean lands, country, Egypt, countries, world. Which is correct? All?

Luke 17:27 Jesus "..flood..destroyed them all. Sodom "..destroyed them all." And "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed."

If the flood was local only some in Sodom were destroyed! And only part of the earth will be affected by Jesus' return/judgement!

2 Peter 3: 3-7 says "scoffers" deny the flood destroyed the world. He links/equates this to the coming destruction of the earth. In your reasoning judgement will only bring about the "destruction of (some) ungodly men.
---Warwick on 2/5/10

Lee, in Genesis 6-8 God uses whole earth, all life under the heavens, wipe out every living creature I made, every wild animal, all livestock, every creature, every bird, everything with wings, pairs of all creatures, every living thing, all mountains under the entire heavens, every living thing perished, all creatures, all mankind, everything on dry land, everything on the face of the earth, only Noah and those on the ark survived.

But you insist God didn't mean "whole, all, every, everything, entire, only, at all!

You render God's word incomprehensible.
---Warwick on 2/5/10

Lee: "Your theology truly stinks."

Wow! What an intellectual response! Where's all that "love thy neighbor is the only law" stuff you love to expound?
---jerry6593 on 2/5/10

Lee is sharp tonight.
---earl on 2/4/10

Warwick - the problem with your theology is that your interpretation is seldom mixed with good sense.

Ge 41:57 Moreover, ALL THE EARTH came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over all the earth.

Did 'all the earth' really come to Joseph, or only people living in that region?

Perhaps in your narrow interpretation, you wish to tell us about the Chinese, the Mayans, etc. who also came to buy from food from Joseph in Egypt.

And why would it have been nessarity for a world wide flood when a regional flood would have served God's purpose?

And warwick, go pluck out your eye or cut off you hand it they offend thee as Jesus commanded that.Mt. 18:9

Your theology truly stinks.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


Is there anything you claim I believe that you just don't make up?
---atheist on 2/4/10

Warwick : " ...transform a single celled creature into a human... Are you saying you do not believe that all living creatures are descended from one original lifeform?"

You misstate the theory, this time with a non-sensical oversimplification. You make it seem that somehow a single cell through a myriad of mutations became a human being in a single transformation. You know this is not the case.

Mutations of many causes, over a period of 540 million years are responsible for this change, and a history of life forms, most of which are extinct, were the result.

Again, I believe your wholesale rejection of this is based on the fact that the theory cannot be resolved with you belief that it all happened in six days.
---atheist on 2/4/10

Agnostic (knower of nothing): "Jerry: '...your current favorite, the thoroughly debunked lamarckism.' Now where did you get that idea?"

From your statements that the genome of a scion can be modified by the environment of the parent. You do seem to vascillate between lamarckism and mendellian genetics, without understanding the profound differences between the two. That's probably because the prime objective of your atheist website sources is obfuscation, rather than clarification. At least we have established that your beliefs are based purely on blind faith.
---jerry6593 on 2/4/10

Noah's flood 'regional.'?

Genesis ch. 7:4 God says "I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I made." Every living creature, or not?

Isaiah 54:9 God says "To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth..." Regionalists insist 'the earth' means a local region. Regional floods are common-God lied!

Luke 17:27-29 people were getting on with life "..the flood came and destroyed them all. In Soddom "fire and sulfur...destroyed them all."

If regionalists are correct only part of Soddom was destroyed!

Revelation 1:7 apparently 'every eye' will not see Him,' just in some region.
---Warwick on 2/3/10

Dr. Loren Eiseley, scientist and evolutionist wrote:

"The philosophy of experimental science began its discoveries and made use of its methods in the faith, not the knowledge, that it was dealing with a rational universe controlled by a creator who did not act upon whim nor interfere with the forces He had set in operation . It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption."

L. Eiseley: Darwins Century: Evolution and the Men who Discovered It (Anchor, NY: Doubleday, 1961).
---Warwick on 2/3/10

Atheist you wrote "transform a single celled creature into a human... Again this is not evolutionary theory. Where do you get this stuff?"

Are you saying you do not believe that all living creatures are descended from one original lifeform? Surely not?

What do you believe and where did you get this from?
---Warwick on 2/3/10

//Do you believe God used floods, famines, and illness to punish during biblical times.

I believe that the Scripture states that He may if it is His will to do so.

However, as to a flood He sent in Genesis to destroy human life, He needed only a regional flood not a worldwide flood.

It is similar to using a sledge hammer when a tack hammer would do the job easily.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Contrary to popular belief, most wars are fought over property, not religion.

If Christianity is "mythology", don't you wonder how it has survived so well? The Greek "gods" didn't last long. Hinduism, with their many "gods", is not claiming many converts.
But Christianity has persisted. in fact flourished, despite every effort to eliminate it... from the era of the ancient Roman Empire to the Communist and atheist regimes of The Peoples Republic of China and the former Soviet Union. Christianity is growing, even in these countries. Do you think those who persist in their faith despite torture and prison and economic loss are "weak"?

---Donna66 on 2/3/10


If you need the comfort your beliefs give you, I can understand that. If you need to belief that you will live forever by the side of 'god', okay no harm.

But I have children, and I do not want them to grow up in a demon haunted world. In fact I do not think that our species can continue to survive with mythology so embedded in our thinking. It destroys rationality, and has provided the excuse for how many wars?

Why is your faith so weak that it hinges on the belief that the bible is inerrant and all this began 10,000 years ago and must have been done by 'god' in six twenty-four hour days?
---atheist on 2/3/10

Jerry: "...your current favorite, the thoroughly debunked lamarckism."

Now where did you get that idea? Again you imagine what I believe, and then denigrate it. That is a rather juvenile tactic.

You can't face science's current thinking that has been reasonable vetted by peer review because it threatens your fragile belief system. So you go about tossing out your version like a schoolyard bully making fun of any one who doesn't agreed with and follow you. All this because you are afraid to die and need to live forever?
---atheist on 2/3/10


"transform a single celled creature into a human..."

Again this is not evolutionary theory. Where do you get this stuff?
---atheist on 2/3/10

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Atheist the truth is you need to convince yourself God does not exist. This is why you persist here.

Dawkins is the issue. He is a leader in antiGod activism, passionately defending microbe-to-man evolution, ridiculing those who disagree with him. But on the unedited interview you can see he, of all people, has no answer to the question. He will not accept the challenge to debate scientists from Creation Ministries International because he knows they know he has no answers!

Having been an antiChristian activist myself I understand your passion. After 30+ years as a Christian I can only say my conversion was the beginning of the best part of my life.

See Acts 26:14
---Warwick on 2/3/10

Agnostic: "Just keep repeating the same things over and over again, it doesn't matter if they are true, as along as you believe hard enough."

That must be your theme song. You continue to believe by blind faith in your nonexistent natural processes of Big Bang matter accretion, unworkable nebular hypotheses, impossible abiogenesis, and your current favorite, the thoroughly debunked lamarckism. Your entire belief system, from dark matter to dark energy to the unknown process behind the first life form to the mysterious and undetectable force that causes genomes to increase in complexity to the missing link, is built entirely upon that which does not exist.

We believe in intelligent design. You believe in the opposite!
---jerry6593 on 2/3/10


Just keep repeating the same things over and over again, it doesn't matter if they are true, as along as you believe hard enough.

This has never been about truth or science. It has only been about your need to believe what you believe.

Dawkins is not the issue. Evolution is not the issue. The issue is that you believe in a mythology of a supernatural being who according to your holy scripture made everything in a matter of days, and did it about 10,000 years ago. You and others like you seem to need that belief, just to live.

I don't understand it. I don't need to live forever, or pretend that I can get all the 'right' answers from an invisible friend who isn't there.
---atheist on 2/2/10

Atheist, mutations are seen to corrupt genetic information. No assistance to evolution, as this leads to diseases i.e. sickle cell anaemia.

New genetic information has been seen to arise but is insignificant and random, not the enormous amount of specific information needed to transform a single celled creature into a human. A human requires about 5,000 times more genetic information and almost all of it totally new, and unique. However mutations etc will not produce the countless readable 'books' of sequenced information necessary. One small mistake destroys a sentence- 'God is now here' could become 'God is no where,' corrupting the information.

We have all seen what one small genetic error produces in a human!
---Warwick on 2/3/10

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Atheist there have been many socalled exposees of creationist deception, which when analysed all fall into the category of half truths, outright lies, and straw-man arguments. A prominent book was 'Telling Lies For God' by Dr Ian Plimer. This was mostly an attack upon Creation Ministries International (then Answers in Genesis Australia). The then AiG had the claims investigated by an independent committee of qualified people headed by Ex Chief Magistrate of New South Wales-Clarrie Briese-and the claims were found to be false.

The unedited section of the interview with Dawkins is on youtube. Dawkins was given more than ample time to ponder but was unable to answer the question. Likewise he has been unable to answer it since.
---Warwick on 2/2/10


See: Creationist Deception Exposed
by Barry Williams


The Information Challenge - Australian Skeptics By Richard Dawkins

Your premise seems to be that if Dawkins didn't answer a question to what was apparently an edited interview (what interview is not edited?) promptly and in a manner to your liking then I must answer for him, ---else the question is valid and unaswerable, and evolution false.

Dawkins discusses 'information' in the article above. Will you read it or just keep point to an eleven second pause in an interview?

Mark Isaak is a writer. The references from his articles were of scientists. See those.

Surprised you would reference something so old, 1997.
---atheist on 2/2/10

Atheist, did you view Frog to Prince? You can see the relevant section on youtube "Dawkins Stumped by Creationists" He is asked "can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome" He is stumped, looks around for 20+ seconds then requests time to think. He then gives a non answer, which means no!

To show the interview was not edited (as claimed by some) the producers provided the master which shows it wasn't!

Prof. Dawkins is a far more knowledgeable, and qualified evolutionist than your Isaaks.

It is no wonder Dawkins et al are afraid to engage in a public debate with people who can ask such difficult questions.
---Warwick on 2/2/10

atheist, I guess you are here to argue and stir stuff up.

However, where ever a person lives, they need to know the possible natural hazards of the area they live in. I live in a forested area, and I clear and am still working on clearing a fire parameter around my house.

If people live in San Francisco, they have building codes preparing for an earthquake event.

Similar to preparing for the Day of Judgment, one should prepare for possible hazards in which they live.

We should not be thoughtless about the area we live in, nor should we be thoughtless of facing God.

BTW, God did leave us a road-map for our personal lives. His name is Jesus Christ.
---Rod4Him on 2/1/10

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Say huh?!

There are hurricanes in Florida, tornadoes in the midwest, freezing cold in Alaska, storms in Vermont. So anyone knowingly living in those places is what, asking for it?

Where should people live and not be guilty of thoughtless self-destruction when a natural disaster strikes? Do you live in such a place?

Why didn't 'god' leave a map saying where not to live?
---atheist on 2/1/10


He writes about the misuse of the idea of information and reference to dispute that misuse:

"Creationists get by with this claim only by leaving the term "information" undefined, impossibly vague, or constantly shifting. By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995, Lenski et al. 1991), increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001, Brown et al. 1998, Hughes and Friedman 2003, Lynch and Conery 2000, Ohta 2003), novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996, Park et al. 1996),novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)"
---atheist on 2/1/10

In answer to the original question, unless a prophet pronounces ahead, such as Abraham, Jonah, Noah, or Jeremiah, these natural hazards become disasters when people get in the way, not God's punishment.

San Francisco is built on a fault line. If there is an earthquake with a resulting catastrophe, people have knowingly made a decision to live there. It's like walking out on a freeway with one's eyes shut. Yes, one can look and try to dodge the traffic.

In the absence of a forewarning from God, attributing natural disasters as being from God is superstitious and judgmental.

The book of Job was written for a reason. Don't judge.

Yes, this is how I see it.
---Rod4Him on 2/1/10


Gee, I lit a candle and did the Atheist Dance in front of my Dawkin's idol, and receive no revelation regarding that subject.

I didn't realize that he flew around the planet stalking televanelists.

You think I should pick another idol, perhaps a Dennett or PZ Myers. Perhaps a little incense would increase communications. What do you think?

Am I to answer for every perceived behavioral defect by other atheists, and if I fail to do so, will you construe that as proving the existence of 'god'?
---atheist on 2/1/10

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Atheist, why is your idol Dawkins afraid of real opposition? Best-selling Christian author Dinesh DSouza wrote:
"To be honest, I find your behavior extremely bizarre. You go halfway around the world to chase down televangelists to outsmart them in an interview format that you control, but given several opportunities to engage the issues you profess to care about in a true spirit of open debate and inquiry, you duck and dodge and run away. ...

"If not, you are nothing but a showman who takes on unprepared and unsuspecting opponents when you yourself control the editing, but when a strong opponent shows up you manufacture reasons to avoid him."
---Ktisophilos on 1/31/10

Atheist I accessed your reference. It is a little old (2004) and quotes some studies from the 90's. As far as I know Isaaks isn't a scientist.

He writes about genetic information yet you say this term was invented by creationists!

To my knowledge microplasma are the 'simplest' self replicating organism. It has 482 genes containing 580 Kilobytes of genetic information. Humans have 30,000 genes containing about 3 Gigabytes. By my calculation humans have about 5,000 times more genetic information than microplasma. Not just more information but simply masses of new, unique, specific information. The article did not explain how this massive specific increase could occur.
---Warwick on 1/31/10

Atheist: "As you should know, this idea of 'information' was an idea introduced as a straw man by creationists.'

Nonsense. Dawkins wrote in The Blind Watchmaker:

"T]here is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopdia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over."

Leading chemical evolutionist Leslie Orgel, used the equivalent term "specified complexity" ["The Origins of Life" 1973]

"Living things are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals such as granite fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity, mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity."
---Ktisophilos on 1/31/10


Did you even bother to look at the references provided? Do you intend to claim victory by simply playing with your definition of 'information'.

The references show that your statement "that random mutations provide all the new, unique, specific genetic information is not new and has been soundly rebutted" is simply not true.

Your purpose is not to become informed or inform others, but to keep your beliefs and encourage others to believe as you do no matter how much you must distort the theory and its findings.

This is your belief, it's not about 'science' or the scientific method. That method includes the publishing of findings and allowing them to be openly examined in peer review, not 'debate'.
---atheist on 1/31/10

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Atheist having read the correspondence on this matter it stands that Nichols refused the challenge and refused to pass it on to the relevant scientists. Nichols wrote "If you wish to contact Professor Dawkins or other presenters directly, of course you may do so."

CMI contacted two of the speakers (Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers) via their websites but neither replied. Myers posted a childish, offensive gutter blog, about the challenge, on his website.

They feel confident to abuse and ridicule from a safe 'distance' but do not have the courage or integrity to engage in serious public debate with qualified scientists on the creation/evolution issue!

As I said before-wimps!
---Warwick on 1/31/10

Atheist you wrote "As you should know, this idea of 'information' was an idea introduced as a straw man by creationists.'

Are you saying there is no such thing as genetic information? Surely not?
---Warwick on 1/31/10


Response of David Nicholls, President AtheistFoundationAustralia to Carl Wieland, CreationMinistriesInternationalAustralia:

"Debate is not science, it is playing upon the prejudices of the audience. Scientific conclusion is about peer reviewing work from accredited scientific journals. I really cant see Professor Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers or any real scientist taking seriously or bothering to debate about alien abductions even though millions believe it to be true. There are just no credible studies on this as there are no credible scientific studies that support creationism."

This isn't about science anyway, is it?
---atheist on 1/31/10


As you should know, this idea of 'information' was an idea introduced as a straw man by creationists. 'Information' has no formal position in the theory of evolution and it is but simplistic substitute for more complex interactions and storage mechanisms of the gene pool. The theory is restated into nonsense and then a debate is expected of that nonsense.

Kinda like staying that a carburetor of such and such design cannot work, when what is proposed is a fuel injection system with a hypercharger.

But debates and analogy are not part of the scientific method. The forum for scientific debate is generally through peer review. Will you bother to comment on the references I provided you?
---atheist on 1/31/10

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Atheist the claim that random mutations provide all the new, unique, specific genetic information is not new and has been soundly rebutted. As you may have read the leading creationist organization-Creation Ministries International-formally challenged the organizers of the forthcoming International Atheists Convention to be held in Melbourne Australia in March. Leading lights in the atheistic antiGod brigade will be in attendance, including prof. Richard Dawkins from Oxford University. The challenge was to debate such issues as mutations however the organizers were not confident enough of their position to take up the challenge.

It is very easy for evolutionists to make all sorts of claims but not if they are made in open debate!
---Warwick on 1/30/10

I am not joining this debate but your last post as to where additional material and matter comes into play from the simple state of simple organism growth is a very sparkling question .
---earl on 1/30/10


Rather than try to compress in my own words, using what I admit is a very limited understanding of the current and ongoing development of the theory of evolution, I give you a reference.

Goggle this:

Claim CB102: Mutations are random noise, they do not add information. Evolution cannot cause an increase in information.

I believe this is you position, and that there you will find an adequate rebuttle.

This is now your third example of a misstated element of the theory on your part.

Three strikes and you're out...
---atheist on 1/30/10

Tommy, clearly the sovereign power of God is displayed all through Scripture. But man has turned God into some weak God who only gets clobbered over and over by man and He is hopelessly impotent because to do anything would upset mankind. And God cannot go against man and interfer with their lives. They have strip Him of at least two attributes, wrath, and justice. He really controls nothing because if He did, He would lose His love, so in order for Him keep His nature of love, He has to give up other attributes.
---MarkV. on 1/30/10

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We are very near the second coming of Christ. The end. Read Matt 24 and many other accounts. God does not view catastrophes, suffering, and physical death in the way that humans do. In-fact, it should be a privilege to endure suffering comparable to Christ. He was not punishing Jesus when He allowed Him to suffer but rather glorified Him after He suffered. He was not punishing the apostles or martyrs when He allowed their horrific murders to occur. I am not sure we can get our heads around God's ways. One thing is for sure and that is that we are very close to the End and we will see more intense signs before Jesus returns. We are not to fear but to rejoice because it means that our redemption is near.
---jody on 1/29/10

Atheist, thanks for your comments.

You do understand don't you that evolutionists claim the first life-form was 'simple' (some likening it to a bacteria) and that all the variety of life which has ever existed on earth, came from this original 'simple' life form.

So where does all the new, unique, specific genetic information to produce all that variety, come from?
---Warwick on 1/30/10

Jesus clearly defined God ,his father, as a merciful Father,not one who causes man to stumble in fear of his wrath or anger.God caused suffering was laid aside as Jesus revealed God's true nature,character and personality.
Before Jesus revealed God in plain truth it may be said that of God but today in this age of revealed truth God is not the evil one who causes us to suffer and die by his pre trial judgements .It is unGodlike and what you have said is not what the God I know is all about.
Man is judged at judgement,no where else, and the courts then will rule but not until then.That would be injustice.Until then God's care,mercy and loving kindness rules till our end of days.
---earl on 1/29/10

It is an easy observation to discover what God is and what God is not.
One may simply observe their own mortal father.He would be defined as a good father if he is loving,forgiving and merciful but he is defined as a hateful,vengeful and evil father if he causes you pain , suffering,plagues and torture .
If your father caused ,purposely ,a plague or great disaster as proof of his might what then would you see in him?Is that love and mercy too?
Mercy is an act of forgiveness when man fails to grasp truth and exercise it.It is not a means of revenge to get even as some may think God does.
Try comparrison thinking.
---earl on 1/29/10

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Don't get excited. I meant that mutations cause change in the physical characteristics of living things. So I was in a hurry.

I think this where you say all mutations are always bad...
---atheist on 1/29/10


You didn't have a point. The theory never proposed that 'survival of the fittest' create mutations.

Mutations cause mutations.
---atheist on 1/29/10

A true God will never recieve relentless criticism for doing evil things even from his half hearted and stone hearted peers who lack understanding.
Even in the primitive pre Jesus days of partial understanding of God man believed he decided the outcome of their wars.

---earl on 1/21/10

Earl, "peers"? God has no "peers" as this word means equal. God is one alone without equal, we are His creation, not peers/equals. God is holy, righteous and just, He still uses disasters for judgment, correction and to show His mighty power. WE aren't so "modern" that we have "out-smarted" God, He is still far wiser than we will ever begin to be. So, who are any of us to question God's motives or methods?
---tommy3007 on 1/29/10

Atheist, again you endeavour to evade the point.

Where does all the vital, new, unique, specific genetic information come from? From the tooth fairy?
---Warwick on 1/29/10

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Thanks for that special effort, but the analogy is still nonsense.

"... natural selection cannot provide the new, unique, specific genetic information to allow one distinct kind of creature to become a different kind. And that is the point!"

That is your point of imaginary significance.

Again, you bend and restate evolutionary theory to your own purposes. Evolutionary theory does not use the mechanism of natural selection to explain the creation of "new, unique, specific genetic information".

Natural selection explains how genes that provide traits that help individuals survive and reproduce to become more frequent in the gene pool.

That's two, try for three...
---atheist on 1/28/10

In reality Atheist I spoke with my biologist friend and he supplied the library analogy. He made it very simple so you could understand as you did not seem able to understand what I had written.

Nonetheless natural selection cannot provide the new, unique, specific genetic information to allow one distinct kind of creature to become a different kind. And that is the point!

View the DVD 'Frog to Prince' and you will see that a leading antiGod activist prof. Richard Dawkins was asked to demonstrate how a natural mechanism could create such genetic information. He gave a convoluted nonAnswer. He later gave an even longer, more convoluted, nonanswer, in the Australian Sceptic.

You are endeavouring to evade the point.
---Warwick on 1/28/10


I wrote in another blog: "Literal fundatmentalists...bend and restate scientific theories and methods to suit their beliefs."

You wrote: "Three times I asked you to provide specific instances of this but you haven't answered."

Now to prove my point you write: "...let me explain natural selection simply : Libraries contain...Select a book ...the library burns down. All other information lost." And something about dogs.

You misstate the theory with a crude and inapproriate analogy, totally fail to define what you mean by information, and then give an example that applies to nothing.

That's one instance, care to provide another?
---atheist on 1/28/10

Atheist let me explain natural selection simply : Libraries contain great variety of information-genetically 'heterozygosity.' Select a book. Later the library burns down. All other information lost. The one remaining book if copied can only produce copies of itself-genetically speaking 'homozygosity.'

The wolf is considered the ancestor of all modern dogs. Therefore all genetic information within the whole dog kind comes from it. The wild Dingo, descended from the wolf is 'homozygous' as they produce only Dingos.

The famous God-hating evolutionist prof. Richard Dawkins was unable to name any natural process which added new unique genetic information to the genome.
---Warwick on 1/27/10

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God allows man to chose and the angry planet is the result of sin.
Ironically the secular and atheists are first to shake their fist at the sky post disaster and claim there is no God as if their life, an event without meaning or purpose mattered one digit.

God lets us go our own way and then we suffer the results of our hard heartedness.

Since grace God has shown himself not to be punitive.
---larry on 1/26/10


Genetic information is not lost. The mechanism of natural selection will allow genes that provide traits that help individuals survive and reproduce to become more frequent in the gene pool. Eventually those genes may become more dominately expressed in the population. That does not mean the are lost, they are still there in the gene pool although seldom expressed.

Evolutionary theory states that birds and reptiles evolved from a common ancester, not that they changed from one to another. Again a misstatement on your part of the theory to make it more ostensibly disprovable...
---atheist on 1/26/10

Atheist natural selection is a conservative mechanism, not a creative one.

Natural selection occurs when climate etc 'selects' physical attribute/s possessed by some individuals, within a kind/breeding group, which gives them a survival advantage. Others of the same kind/ breeding group, which don't have this survival advantage will be selected out, will not survive. Their genetic information will be lost.

Also natural selection has no mechanism to allow or cause one creature to evolve into a completely different creature. For a reptile to evolve into a bird (for example) a massive amount of new, unique, specific genetic information would be required. And natural selection has no mechanism to provide this information.
---Warwick on 1/26/10

//Do you believe God used floods, famines, and illness to punish during biblical times?

Only if it is (or was) in accordance to His will.

The Lord used the various plagues to punish the Egyptians in order for them to drive out the Hebrew people.

It is interesting that while we read God harden the heart of Pharaoh, all but the last plague was something that occurred from a natural order.

Plagues of frog, locusts, gnats, etc. were common even today, however, the sequence and timing of these events clearly indicate the 'finger of God' was at work. Exodus 8:19.
---Lee1538 on 1/25/10

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Are you claiming that the mechanism of natural selection forces genetic information to be lost? How is this so? That makes no sense? What evidence do you have for this?
---atheist on 1/25/10

Atheist what you covered on another thread was a reasonable description of speciation/natural selection. Nothing to do with microbe to man evolution. Please explain how natural selection (a conservative process which deletes genetic information) can create new, specific, unique, genetic information? Unless you can show how this occurs what you call evolution is dead in the water.
---Warwick on 1/25/10

we all live under the dispensation of grace at this time.God doesn,t punish,he judges rightly.Now God does use all the circumstances of peoples lives to work for good of those who love him,scripture tells us he does.your punishment,or reward,will come after you die.We have all the things you mentioned because sin is in the world,not because God chooses to torture us.
---tom2 on 1/23/10

leslie:"Pruning only helps the person grow stronger and better, .."

Amputations may help or force a person to find inner strength he did not know he had, but unlike plants, a physical improvement is not the normal result.
---atheist on 1/23/10

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Wars and rumors of wars will continue as long as nations continue to learn war.
And the birth pains(labor)will be tremendous upon the human civilization before the dawn of peace.All human life must want peace almost simultaneously to obtain it.
Earthquakes and famines,etc. will continue as long as the earth progresses to a settled sphere.It must leave behind it's childhood beginnings for a future settled and less disturbing age of maturity.
We live in a tremendously unsettled age with almost no visible physical peace awaiting our tomorrow.
---earl on 1/22/10

Atheist - God is in control, NOT you. God is the ONLY one who decides what is right and fair, NOT you. It may seem cruel to you, but God IS JUST, NOT cruel. Pruning only helps the person grow stronger and better, just as pruning a plant helps it grow stronger and more fruitful. Also for those who are not God's it is just. If you murder someone, and stand before a judge, and tell the judge you are forgiving and loving so you will let me go free. If that judge lets the murderer go free, that is NOT justice, and most people would throw that judge off the bench for that call. Your name says you think backwards, and not at all how God thinks.
---Leslie on 1/22/10

"when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, fammines, etc., beware, these are just the beginning of birth pangs of what is to come."

Can anyone point out a time in human history when this was not the case? Except of course before people could travel and communicate by some means.
---atheist on 1/22/10

Deb, we cannot really apeak for God and what he uses and does.

I heard something very spectacular from Graham Cooke. He said "we are not under judgement right now, we are living under Grace, so we are not to judge."

Jesus said, "when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, fammines, etc., beware, these are just the beginning of birth pangs of what is to come."
---Donna on 1/22/10

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What the devil means for evil, Almighty God turns for good to all who believe on Him (G50:19-20, Job, Ps. 23, Jn 10:1-19, Ro. 8:28).

Since the Great Flood, God said He wouldn't "PUNISH" man in that way again (G9:11-17). I believe Satan, since then, has caused catastophic/devastating regional floods to make people blame God. Also, famine & all kinds of illness, earthquakes, mud slides, hurricanes, tornadoes, hellish forest fires, wars, terrorism, etc., are all from the devil. But, God loves & brings deliverance & healing to all who believe upon Him, to persons who turn to Him for salvation, & even to the unjust. We should LOOK FOR GOD IN THE RELIEF, NOT IN THE DISASTERS OF LIFE.
---Leon on 1/22/10

\\ Luke 13:1-5\\

And the immediate application of this passage, in case nobody got it:

Do you think the Haitians that died in the earthquake were the worst sinners in the world and were deserving of punishment? I tell you, they were not. But unless you repent, Pat Robertson, deb, whoever--YOU will likewise perish.
---Cluny on 1/22/10

All this Will come to pass according to God's Word. God Is trying to wake people up.
Many are still asleep that God Is trying to wake some people up to The Fact that they need God's 1 & only Salvation Plan that's according to Mark 16 v 16 - Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20, Gal 1 v's 8-9. Strait is the gate & narrow is the way & be but few to find it.
To run away from the Man-made relig-org's, The Mother apostate church with her daughters churches that WIll cause them to be lost. For B--r--o--a--d is the way that leadeth to destructiom & be many to go in thereat. The devil has so many in derision.
---Lawrence on 1/22/10

Did God used floods, famines, and illness to punish? Yes.
"Behold, I, even I, do bring a 'flood' of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, ..." Gen 6:17
"Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: .... by 'famine':" Jer. 11:22
"Also every 'sickness',.... will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. Deu 28:61
"Does He employ disaster to punish in modern times? Why or why not?" No.
Today "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" And "He who rejects Me [Jesus], and does not receive My words, has one that judges him: 'the word' that I have spoken, the same will judge him in the last day." - John 5:22>12:48
---josef on 1/22/10

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we do not live in paradise because there is sin in the world.The earth is cursed just as we are cursed from adam.Since jesus though we live under grace,we have the free will choice to choose to accept salvation thru him.Now God has destroyed the world in a flood,and sodom,and gamorah,and he has caused famine,and blights,and even the angel of death to convince pharoh to let his people go.Other than that I really dont know,O wpuld like to believe that while we livce under grace no one is destroyed by God until the tribulation ,and then after the great white throne judgement.
---tom2 on 1/22/10

Luke 13:1-5

1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on themdo you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
---Cluny on 1/21/10

This question surfaces frequently and Jesus clarified this by saying to his returning apostles from a nearby community,"ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of".
It is apparent that many desire to live in the primitive pre revelation era of Jesus.
Jesus clearly defined his Father as Love as opposed to vengance,revenge and paybacks.
Everyone has their day in court but not until then.Why,because the wheat grows with the tares until judgement.
If someone classifies a disaster as God caused then the same one must also classify any and all sufferings as God caused paybacks,revenge and vengance.
How can the nature of God not be more evident in the minds of believers?
---earl on 1/21/10

A true God will never recieve relentless criticism for doing evil things even from his half hearted and stone hearted peers who lack understanding.
Even in the primitive pre Jesus days of partial understanding of God man believed he decided the outcome of their wars.
---earl on 1/21/10

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God controls everything including the elements and what we call nature. Natural disasters of magnitudes never known to man are occuring. God has always spoken to man through thunder, rain, droubt, lightening, wind, and the Bible clearly states that just before Jesus Christ returns, there will be an increase in famines, earthquakes, fire, illness,wars and even persecution and death to Christian believers. Nothing is an accident and certainly when at least 100,000 are killed by a quake, then it wouldn't be considered a "crude"(To: Atheist), way to use nature to fulfill prophecy. It is happening everywhere and not just to our brothers and sisters along with non-Believers in Haiti. This is "only the beginning of sorrows."
---Jody on 1/21/10

I think God uses disasters to see who will respond to the plight of the victims with generosity or judgement.

Trust me, He will mark it and examine us about our responses to such unfortunate people at the Judgement.

Will we have a good answer?
---Cluny on 1/21/10


So 'god' is pruning in Haiti? Earthquakes are a rather crude tool for one so omnipotent wouldn't you say?
---atheist on 1/21/10

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