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Do Christians Live Forever

Is the belief in the immortality of the soul the same thing as spiritualism? What are the differences?

Moderator - Jerry do you mean soul or spirit?

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 ---jerry6593 on 1/26/10
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Jerry - A cure for your confusion may be to heed the Scripture that tells you to "buy from me (the Lord) gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Rev. 13:18
---Lee on 2/25/10


We must note that Jesus gave us two commandments. He did not change the former. If one loves the Lord, our God, with all our heart, soul, and mind, are we not doing all to not violate the 10? Jesus came against religion as it was not relationship. He gave us a way to have relationship, but many fall away as He said! The Revelation and the Gospels tell us those who CONTINUE in sin shall not be with Him. I do not allow the devil, for example, to get me to vote for abortion advocates. It is continuous murder. How can I ask forgiveness of something ongoing? The enemy sure thought of this one!
---Virgil on 2/25/10


I don't find Lee confusing.

What is confusing is saying salvation is a gift of grace, but one has to work for it.
---Rod4Him on 2/25/10


Yes, Jerry we all realize that you try very hard to deflect what is stated in a post by focusing upon some very trivial mistype.

The message in that post is simply -

Adventists clearly do not realize that their convoluted Investigative Judgment theory nullifies much of what our Lord did on the Cross on our behalf since it truly teaches a salvation by works.

It truly makes a liar out of Jesus.

And many do not realize this false doctrine cannot be adequately defended and is the reason why many SDA ministers are pastors in other denomination, why many Biblical scholars and theologians are no longer SDA.

Any definitive doctrine of the church needs come from the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant.
---Lee on 2/25/10


Lee: "But confusion is one chief characteristic of cults."

Then YOU are indeed a cultist!
---jerry6593 on 2/25/10




Samuel //It is only recently the Ten Commandments have been kicked out of the church.

While most of us agree with the principles behind the 10 commandments, apparently our elected leaders of whom we are commanded to pray for, believe that they are an imposition of a religion not held by everyone in our diversified culture.

Maybe the most offensive commandments is - thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness - something that lawyers do if it suits their aims.

I am not in the least offended by any display of law even if it has its derivation in some religion faith.

The ACLU has other views but they will gain only if they can settle out of court. One may win but cost may be unacceptable.
---Lee1538 on 2/24/10


While even those in the cults will quote Eph. 2:8 which states one can be (not has been) saved by grace and not by works, they change the definition of what is traditionally viewed as grace.

Instead of salvation as a gift granted by unmerited favor, they really view grace simply as the capability given to one who can then earn salvation by obedience to law- some not mandated in the New Covenant. Lee1538

I have not seen this stated by anyone here. You put your words in others mouths. The Protestants have always taught salvation results in right living. It is only recently the Ten Commandments have been kicked out of the church.
---Samuel on 2/24/10


While even those in the cults will quote Eph. 2:8 which states one can be (not has been) saved by grace and not by works, they change the definition of what is traditionally viewed as grace.

Instead of salvation as a gift granted by unmerited favor, they really view grace simply as the capability given to one who can then earn salvation by obedience to law- some not mandated in the New Covenant.

They speak out of both sides of their mouths saying while one is not saved by works, one really do not love Jesus if you do not obey the selected OT law, thence if you do not love Jesus then you cannnot be saved.

But confusion is one chief characteristic of cults.

Jesus warned us about such false teachers.
---Lee1538 on 2/24/10


Lee: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 8:2"

A little Bible lesson for you:

There is no Eph 8:2. Are you reading from the Revised Lee Version? Stick with the King James, it's more reliable, and NO, it is not past perfect tense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
---jerry6593 on 2/24/10


Many religions teach the immortality of the soul. But spiritualism only emphasizes the spiritual life over the worldly life, which often includes practicing aseticism and self-affliction, and may involve occultic meditation. The emphasis of Christianity is not on the immortality of the soul, nor on spiritualism, but instead the emphasis of Christianity is following Christ Jesus. Embracing Christ's immortality will give us his immortality, and Christ writes our name in his Lamb's Book of Life, and he promises us a life together with him forever.
---Eloy on 2/21/10




Jerry: A little English lesson for you: "have been saved" is past tense.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph. 8:2

Adventists clearly do not realize that their convoluted Investigative Judgment theory nullifies much of what our Lord did on the Cross on our behalf since it truly teaches a salvation by works.

But when we discuss this issue with them, they speak out of both sides of their mouths as they try hard to put their man-made (woman-made) beliefs above the Word of God.
---Lee1538 on 2/20/10


1st_cliff//"shall never die" is referring to the fact that altho they are dead,for all intents and purposes, (soul sleep) they will hear His voice and arise! that way no one can prevent their coming back to life!

Yes, one can interpret (or twist) the Scripture to support anything one desires to believe.

However since the early church taught that one goes to be with Jesus upon death, it is more reasonable to stick with that 'faith once and for all delivered to the saints' Jude 3.

The view held by Jerry that the saints of His church were spiritualists - meaning they were demon possessed - simply reflects the fact they cannot find any support for their unique doctrines from the writings of the early church.
---Lee1538 on 2/20/10


//The resurrection is in the future.

True of the body but those in Christ have already passed from death to life.

Joh 5:24 Truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life (present possession). He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Christ also told one that would follow Him to let the dead bury their own dead.Mt 8:22.

Now how can one that is dead also bury the dead? The teaching is that there are those alive in the body but dead spiritually.

Unlike the Adventists, I believe the Bible supports the fact eternal life is a present possession, not something determined in future.
---Lee1538 on 2/19/10


Jerry - I would like to know if your considered the successors of the Apostles who believed that those in Christ went to be with Him after their death were spiritualists.

Of course, the Adventists - like the Mormons- believed the church became apostate immediately after the death of the last Apostles and needed to be reformed.

After all the main teachings in the church was no longer Sabbath keeping, Levitical dietary laws, etc. by the end of the 1st century - things that are commanded in the Old Covenant but not at all in the New Covenant.

Do you suppose the Holy Spirit who had the Bible penned simply did not believe such religious ordinances were of any real value since the substance belonged to Christ? Col. 2:17
---Lee1538 on 2/19/10


Lee: A little English lesson for you: "Shall never die" is future tense. The resurrection is in the future. Do the math.
---jerry6593 on 2/19/10


silly me.. I thought God was the god of the soul sleeping...
---MIchael on 2/18/10


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Lee1538, "shall never die" is referring to the fact that altho they are dead,for all intents and purposes, (soul sleep) they will hear His voice and arise! that way no one can prevent their coming back to life!
(never dieing ,"permanently")
God is a God of the "Living" not dead to Him!
---1st_cliff on 2/18/10


Jerry//If you believe dead people continue to live, travel, think, etc, then you are a spiritualist.

If you knew what the saints of the early church believed in, then you would need say they also were spiritualists for they believed those who died in Christ went to be with Him.

When Christ was challenged by the Sadducees on the resurrection He replied "God is not the god of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong".

Now how can someone that died be also living?

I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Learn what He meant by 'shall never die'.
---Lee1538 on 2/18/10


If you believe that dead people continue to live, travel, think, etc, then you are a spiritualist.
---jerry6593 on 2/17/10


1st Cliff: "How many veterans died so that we may enjoy this freedom?" AMEN to that! God bless them every one.

I agree that we hold many beliefs in common. I think you would find that to be the case with Christians of most all denominations. But, I think it just as wrong to condemn people because of their denomination as it is to expect salvation by being a member of the "right church." Look for yourself. Do you not find good people and bad people in all denominations? Let God separate the wheat from the tares. It's not our job.

And find a better term than "fundamentalist." How about that detestable group, "liberal."
---jerry6593 on 2/13/10


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Jerry, I use "fundamentalism" for want of a better term, to lump together all the modern churchy,evangelicals! Sorry if this offends you!
We agree on many doctrines ,(if you haven't noticed) some we are far apart, but that's fine I respect your freedom to pursue that which to you is logical and reasonable. My belief makes perfect sense to me! How many veterans died so that we may enjoy this freedom?
---1st_cliff on 2/12/10


Amen Jerry.

Thank you.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/12/10


so 'perish', 'destroy', 'die', and 'death' are not absolutes,
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Thank you 1stcliff...
now I know the soul doesn't die, perish, or get destroyed.
---MIchael on 2/12/10


1st Cliff: "Fundamentalists believe you are judged at death either to heaven or hell. No resurrection necessary with this theology!
How many judgements are there?"

No we don't! Fundamentalists believe the Bible - ALL of it. We believe that Satan lied in the Garden of Eden when he said "Ye shalt not surely die" (Gen 3:4). We believe that there is only one judgement (Heb 9:21), and that it is completed before Christ returns, since He brings His reward with Him (Rev 22:12), and thus no one has "gone to their reward" prior to that time. What is it with you and Fundamentalists, anyway?
---jerry6593 on 2/12/10


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Michael, When God resurrects you it's complete with memory else there would be no point in resurrection! If He "knows" you, He knows your mind completely memory and all. Humans never forget anything that happens in their lives, they just can't recall them. But God can ,and does!
---1st_cliff on 2/12/10


I have pondered this question for ages. If man sufered a "spiritual death" in the garden as most put forth, how is there anything left to go on? This would automatically mean that at death he is dead since there is no life in him. Believers have the HS so perhaps there is something that occurs there we are not clear on after death. But it would appear non believers would be dust at death, which is EXACTLY what the curse is. You came from dust and you are going back there god says. The only way this would be true with the present doctrine is if you existed as a spirit before hand. Mormons believe this but not evangelicals. SO to be consistent with present evangelical thought, at death, non believers MUST be dust.

Jeff
---wisslewj on 2/12/10


There are several judgments...
Gen 6:13, Gen 19:13,Rom 4:10+2Cor 5:10, Rev 20:12...
and 2 resurrections....2The 2:1, Rev 20:5, Rev 20:13
But according to Psa 146:4 Lazarus' thoughts perished.. So How could Lazarus know who he was, much less anything else?
Ecc 9:5,6 also states that all memories are gone... So where did Lazarus and Jesus get their memories back from? and where were they stored if not perished?
---MIchael on 2/11/10


Michael, You just answered your own question."Jesus RESTORED Lazarus' body"
Yes indeed, he didn't get the "new" body as he later died naturally! Either new or restored He can bring you back to life!
Rev. says your name is written in the "book of life" Why would this be necessary if you were still conscious?
Fundamentalists believe you are judged at death either to heaven or hell.No resurrection necessary with this theology!
How many judgements are there?
---1st_cliff on 2/11/10


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But there wasn't an 'old' Lazarus lying in the tomb... Christ used the same body and restored it. Seems like a poor example to me, but still proof of God's power.
Also, this verse is used by proponents of 'no seperate soul'...
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
Where does God store your thoughts to give them back to you to face judgement?
---MIchael on 2/11/10


Michael, We become a "we" again when resurrected, like Lazarus.Do you imagine he was brought back to life in a "stinking" (rotting)body? Altho this was a demonstration of resurrection (only) because he later died ,Jesus proved that a resurrection was possible even tho decomposing had begun!
If you had died at sea and are later resurrected ,then the "sea gave up the dead"! Hades is the grave!(not Greek/Roman mythology!)
---1st_cliff on 2/11/10


let me see if I got this right...
Man does not have an everlasting spirit that outlives his body.--it's just air--
Man's old body won't be needed in the resurrection because we get new ones. (At resurrection we're given a new body! the old one is cremated, decomposed,eaten by creatures etc..1stcliff)
So what exactly does the sea and hades give up, since the body isn't needed and there is no soul?
How are we given new bodies if there isn't a we to give them to?
Since our toughts perish, how can we be judged afterwards?
something doesn't sound correct about these conclusions...
---MIchael on 2/10/10


Mark Eaton, Man and animals are all made of the same earthly elements,we breathe the same air.

Michael, Solomon was a great wise man, he is not talking about the spiritual side of man. Do you rejoice in your own works or are you ashamed?
The "spirit" returns to God who gave it" is how Adam became alive when God "breathed" into his nostrils the breath of life. When you die your breath (spirit-pneuma) that keeps you alive, leaves you. Does it go up,down or where? Figuratively it goes back to God who gave it! (dead 'till resurrected)
---1st_cliff on 2/10/10


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Eccl.3.19."Man's fate is like that of the animals..as one dies so dies the other.Man has no advantage over the animals 20. all come from dust ,to dust all return"
Man's advantage is the "resurrection"
---1st_cliff on 2/9/10

You should investigate this scripture:

1 Cor 15:39 "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish"

We are not the same as animals.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/10/10


-Ecc 3 continued:
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
-which is answered
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
--but Ecc 3 goes further with Solomon's opinion:
22 Wherefore I perceive that [there is] nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that [is] his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him
---so 1stcliff, Shall we rejoice in our own works from an inproper perspective of life and death?
---MIchael on 2/9/10


Mark V, Yours is a classic example of how people make up their own "religion".
#1. Nowhere in scripture does it say death is "separation from God". (a made up definition of death)
#2 Scripture does use the term death metaphorically (let the dead bury the dead)
but nowhere in Gen. is this term used.
#3 Gen. .5.5 "Altogether Adam "LIVED" 930 years and "THEN" he "DIED" ..no hint of any other death!(doesn't mention Eve's death,ether either, at all)
#4 When people make up definitions it becomes a doctrine! (albeit false)
---1st_cliff on 2/9/10


Mark E, 1cliff error I believe is in the use of the word (die or eternal death) in Scripture. The same holds true for Adam and Eve, they died Spiritually to God but did not die physically until much later. Spiritual death (separation from God) in relationship. Never from His presence for He is Spirit and Omnipresent.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


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Mark Eaton, There are dozens of scriptures about "dead souls , best known is probably Ez.18.4.'The soul that sinnith, it will die"
You're right your breath contains non of your faculties! Your life is your soul,which defined is a living sentient creature. Even animals "are" living souls". (Strong's Concordance).Eccl.3.19."Man's fate is like tat of the animals..as one dies so dies the other.Man has no advantage over the animals 20. all come from dust ,to dust all return"
Man's advantage is the "resurrection"
---1st_cliff on 2/9/10


Mark Eaton, "SOUL" changes meaning from OT to NT usage and you can't apply the NT usage to any OT verse. NT usage it is about the same as spirit and they are often used interchangeably. The OT definition is any creature or animal that alive, breathing and capable of movement.

a Gerbil is a Soul so is a human being on equal standing.

That is why modern Bibles translate Gen 2:7 as CREATURE instead of SOUL.

In OT usage you don't have a soul you ARE a soul because you are alive, you can breath, and you can move around.
---Friendly_Blogger on 2/9/10


As long as your body is alive you are a "live soul" at death you are a "dead soul"
Mat.16.26."...gains the whole world but forfeits his soul". Your spirit (GR.pneuma) is your breath and as long as it keeps going in and out your lungs you will stay alive, at death, your breath leaves!
---1st_cliff on 2/5/10

What is a "dead soul"? That statement makes no sense to me. How can the rich man FORFEIT/LOSE his dead soul if it is dead? No, you missed the meaning of this passage.

My breath is caused by my lungs and is a product of my body. My soul, my essence, who I am, is not my breath. Is not the soul the one thing that separates us from animals? How can the soul then be merely breath?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10


MarkE: "My soul and spirit do not travel without my body."

Then how does it "go" to heaven or hell at death without your body? Your logic isn't.
---jerry6593 on 2/9/10


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---1st_cliff on 2/6/10 Just because metaphors are used to describe what a spirit is like does not mean that is what they are. Words do not make God. That is why the doctrine of the trinity is an abomination. Men say it is God. but it is words not God. God's word has his authority but God is not a word. I do not worship air. God created air, it is similar in characteristics of his Spirit but so is water and fire. That is why heathens worship them instead of God. Their small minds cannot tell the difference.
---exzucuh on 2/7/10


Exzucuh,Here native people are called "First Nations"
God is a living spirit being that He is an invisible power.
In Strong's Concordance "spirit" is derived from ruach-Heb and pneuma-Gr. both mean breath, air , wind etc. A pneumatic machine is "air" driven!
God and Angels are "Spirit beings"
The Christmas spirit,spirit of '76, being in "good spirits" is a mental attitude!
God is a Spirit as is the God of Native people "The Great Spirit"! Not childish!
---1st_cliff on 2/6/10


1st_Cliff//Lee1538, So the body cast into hell is similar to ours (except that it's made of asbestos?)

As stated before I do not believe in eternal punishment but like some prominent theologians hold that only immortality is given to those who will inherit eternal life.

Again, your contention is against the teaching the church has for over 2 milleniums, and who are you, someone that knows more? Arrogance?
---Lee1538 on 2/6/10


Lee1538, So the body cast into hell is similar to ours (except that it's made of asbestos?)
Personally I don't believe there's a fire burning somewhere under the earth called "hell fire"
1st fire will not ignite without oxygen,and there's non beneath the earth's surface. Do these creatures breathe? Kinda like mindless zombies?
I can't follow there thinking trend!
BTW Apart from this topic how's your wife doing ?
---1st_cliff on 2/5/10


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---1st_cliff on 2/5/10 The spirit is not air. If that was so the whole atmosphere would be a spirit. The spirit of Life is the power of life that comes from God and goes back to God.
Your ideas are as childish as the teachings of my ancestors but they had an excuse. They at least knew that a Spirit was not air and that men lived on after death. I am a native American and we had sense enough to believe Gods word when it was preached to us and stop believing foolish ideas.
---exzucuh on 2/5/10


Mark Eaton, There's no such thing as "disembodied people" (you've been reading too many comic books)
As long as your body is alive you are a "live soul" at death you are a "dead soul"
Mat.16.26."What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul"

Your spirit (GR.pneuma) is your breath and as long as it keeps going in and out your lungs you will stay alive, at death, your breath leaves!
---1st_cliff on 2/5/10


//If you believe that people are sent to a "hell fire" this body will cremate in a very few minutes.Whatever the fundamentalists believe goes in the fire without burning up is way beyond me.

While the majority of Christians believe that the damned will go to hell, it is my belief that they will be destroyed.

What will be casted into hell, is a resurrected body, only similar to the body we have now.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


1st_cliff//If you have to go outside the bible (Apostles creed) to find belief in the bodily resurrection then that ought to tell you something.huh?

Nothing wrong with proving what the early church believed in by going outside the Bible as the saints of His church used the Scripture to make up their beliefs. And they all believed in the resurrection of the body.

You say no one can see God and live indicates you really do not know much about the Scripture.

Mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

And if you believe Jesus was God in the flesh, then many have seen Him.

Was Job disillusioned when he stated that his flesh will see God?
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


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But if it never sleeps, what was it doing last night while you (or your brain) slept? Do you have memory of your nocturnal travels?
---jerry6593 on 2/5/10

You have some strange notions.

When I am in this tabernacle, I am completely encompassed in it. Body, soul, and spirit all in one package. My soul and spirit do not travel without my body.

My spirit is not a "spook" as you are calling it. There are no disembodied people haunting this world. Disembodied people are either with the Lord or in torment.

And I do not have a pronoun or capitialization problem. He is God and my spirit is an it to me, since I am still in this body. When I am finally outside of this body, them my spirit may be a him.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/5/10


There is two kinds of Christianity True or False, negative or positive. Faith or anti- faith,Christ or Anti-Christ. This is how you discern the Gospel from another gospel or Jesus from another Jesus. The truth is always by faith, it is hard for the carnal mind to accept. It takes action to prove that you believe it but anti-faith has no action required and has no ability to distinguish a believer from a non believer. The false church preaches a negative gospel that requires no faith. For instance: "Jesus says you will never die" They say: "You will" because they are anti-faith. And their whole belief system contradicts the word of Jesus that must be believed by faith and acted upon.
---exzucuh on 2/5/10


Lee1538, If you have to go outside the bible (Apostles creed) to find belief in the bodily resurrection then that ought to tell you something.huh?
Job's statement is diqualified because no one can see God and live!
1st. If your belief is a heavenly destination, what good will a body of flesh and bone be?
If you believe that people are sent to a "hell fire" this body will cremate in a very few minutes.
Whatever the fundamentalists believe goes in the fire without burning up is way beyond me. Somewhere in fantasy land!
(actually in pagan land)
---1st_cliff on 2/5/10


Jesus made it very clear that if you believe in him you will never die. The whole point of salvation is resurrection power. That power starts by resurrecting you now into the kingdom of God, That resurrecting regenerating power causes you to evolve into the sons and daughters of God by faith. Jesus is the first born from the dead those baptized into Jesus are baptized into his death burial and resurrection.
And Jesus is The Now resurrection to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Inheritance we get for obeying the gospel.
Sinners do not get this they do not get Now resurrection they get death, hell and the grave.
---exzucuh on 2/5/10


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1st_cliff - the church has since its birth has believed in the resurrection of the body. In fact, you will even find it in the Apostles creed.

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself,and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


MarkE: "I doubt our Spirit ever goes unconscious. It is created by God, and He never sleeps."

First of all, you seem unsure if your spook is an IT or a HE. Secondly, by capitalizing HE, you insinuate (perhaps unconsciously) that it is the Holy Spirit.

But if it never sleeps, what was it doing last night while you (or your brain) slept? Do you have memory of your nocturnal travels?
---jerry6593 on 2/5/10


Lee1538, Nowhere in scripture does it say "resurrection of he body".
At resurrection we're given a new body! the old one is cremated, decomposed,eaten by creatures etc.. Read Jesus' statements it's always "resurrection of the DEAD" never body!
The sea gave up it's DEAD ..dead bodies??? hardly!
---1st_cliff on 2/5/10


1st_cliff - Rev. 20:5 speaks of the resurrection of the body. You need to read the verse in context.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


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Donna, When you cited Jn.3.16 you left out a very important part "shall not perish" Define "perish" (or was this deliberate?).
Lee 1538 .Rev.20.5. "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years have ended" where are these people if not "soul sleeping?"
---1st_cliff on 2/4/10


Jerry, I don't agree with YOUR theory at all.

Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.

The Lord is not the god of the sleepy heads.

You as an Adventist, are compelled to interpret the scripture in view of the doctrinal position of your denomination.

However, many of us have the advantage of not being in bondage to a denominational belief, so we can simply evaluate the different positions, see their strengths & weaknesses and then decide which view is more plausible.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


jerry, I don't agree with YOUR theory at all.

The bible tells us: To be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord.

If when we die, and our body goes to the grave, if we don't go to either heaven or hell, then where does our spirit go? AND if you say to the grave, then you're WRONG. I speak what the Holy Spirit shows me and "if you walk in the light, ye have fellowship with one another." Study the bible and ask the Holy Spirit if when a Christian dies, doesn't eternal life mean never ending? And Everlasting life means lasting forever. Your spirit either ascends or descends when you die. Your body goes to the grave. On Resurrection day, the two unite.
---Donna on 2/4/10


have a question for you. If the spook within you remains conscious at death, why does it go UNCONSCIOUS every night when you sleep?
---jerry6593 on 2/4/10

Does my spirit go unconsious when I sleep or is it my BRAIN that goes unconscious?

I doubt our Spirit ever goes unconscious. It is created by God, and He never sleeps. If our spirit is created in the image of God, then it should have the attributes of God, and He is a spirit that never sleeps.

Ps 121:3 "Behold, He who keeps Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep".
---Mark_Eaton on 2/4/10


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It is interesting the logical problem of the main teaching. They say that at the fall mans "spirit" died. Yet, they turn around and say that at death one goes to heaven or hell. How? If the spirit died there is no life. And non believers are certainly dust now as they have no life in them. I am not certain as to believers with the HS. You do have life in you at this point. It complicates hell as eternal as well. You would have to be given LIFE and a part of god to be alive. That is the reward of the righteous. What would a non believer be getting eternal life for? And how would he have any life apart from god?

JWiss
---JWiss on 2/4/10


MarkE: "Are you trying to justify the notion of "Soul Sleep"? Are you up to that again Jerry?"

Do you mean the same euphemism that Jesus used (John 11:11)?

I have a question for you. If the spook within you remains conscious at death, why does it go UNCONSCIOUS every night when you sleep?
---jerry6593 on 2/4/10


Most people equate the two. I mean specifically any living, conscious, non-corporeal entity that survives death and continues in that state.
---jerry6593 on 1/28/10

Are you trying to justify the notion of "Soul Sleep"? Are you up to that again Jerry?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/3/10


Well this teaching is more of spiritualisim/new age. Not from Gods word. Gods word showed that he breathed in life to Adam & ecclesiastics states that the dead know nothing at all. We donot immediatly go to paradise or"heaven" at death because the ressurection hasn't occured yet.Please do a googe search on either of these congregations & get their free brochures or prints on this topic... either go to United Church of God or ChicagoBible students
---candice on 2/2/10


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jerry6593,

Yes, that's what I mean--discounting, of course, for... "we which are alive and remain"... as there will be some who will be directly changed from mortal to immortal, at the time of His coming. Other than for these of us, I know of no "change" previous to that event, which shall cause any of us, either singularly or collectively, to put on immortality.
---BruceB on 2/2/10


BruceB: "When we are "changed", we put on immortality: not eternity."

I agree, if by "changed" you are referring to the collective change that is concurrent with Jesus' second coming.
---jerry6593 on 2/2/10


Immortality and eternal life, in the Bible, are essentially the same terms.

Immortality refers to... "incorruptable", such that one is not subject to death.

Eternal life refers to life which goes on forever.

Neither mean "no beginning", but do mean "no ending".

When we are "changed", we put on immortality: not eternity.

"In the beginning" defines the start of time. God exists eternally--before time and after time. We do not, since we are created. But we will reside in the Spirit of God, who is eternal (1Tim 6:16 "everlasting [Gr: aionios] power"--meaning no beginning or ending.)
---BruceB on 1/31/10


Donna: "Eternal means never ending. So your body goes to the grave and your spirit either ascends to heaven or descends to hell."

Not so! The Bible says that immortality is "put on" at the last trump (1 Cor 15:51-53). It also says that ONLY God is inherently immortal now (1 Tim 6:16), and thus no one goes anywhere at death. The righteous dead as well as the righteous living are "caught up together" at Jesus 2nd coming (1 Th 4:13-18). The concept of a self-existent spook "trapped" in a body of flesh, and released at death is pagan - not scriptural - in origin.
---jerry6593 on 1/30/10


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Yes eventually, you ARE a Soul as long as you are Living and Breathing. When you die your soul dies because it is your physical body, your spirit is dormant until the resurrection of the dead followed by judgment if you were preordained for Haven and being in Gods family you go to Heaven. The evaluation criterion simply has to do with eternal accommodations [Motel 6 or Holiday Inn Express] and non selects are then consumed by the lake of fire and aren't mentioned any more. Your spirit is given a Resurrection Body and you become a Soul again. That is the explanation in a nut shell.

Absent from the body present with the Lord is just a partial verse of scripture taken out of context, when read in full context it does not mean that at all.
---Friendly_Blogger on 1/28/10


A chiristians eternal life is tied into the resurrection of the dead. Those who follow JESUS will come to life those who refuse will come to life but die a second time.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,


Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
---Samuel on 1/28/10


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit that returns to God is not mans spirit, But the spirit of God which God has given to man.

Man dies, man is not by any means immortal.
immortality will occur when jesus returns
---Francis on 1/28/10


Moderator - "Jerry do you mean soul or spirit?"

Most people equate the two. I mean specifically any living, conscious, non-corporeal entity that survives death and continues in that state.
---jerry6593 on 1/28/10


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As the other bloggers have indicated, there are no connections with spiritualism and belief in eternity as man relates to it through Jesus Christ or without Him. We are forever. Either with Jesus in Heaven or the demons of Hell.
---jody on 1/27/10


Jesus promised eternal life to those who believe in Him.

Eternal means never ending. So your body goes to the grave and your spirit either ascends to heaven or descends to hell.

For God so loved the World, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believth upon Him shall have everlasting life.

Everlasting means lasting forever. Again, your body goes to the grave when you die and your spirit either ascends to heaven or descends to hell.
---Donna on 1/27/10


Spiritualism is about contacting the dead, which God forbids. Christians believe in the immortality of the soul of those who have accepted Jesus as Saviour. They are completely different.
---Rita_H on 1/27/10


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