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Modern Day Judaizer

Is someone in a cult or a modern day Judaizer when their sole focus is on ceremonial laws such as the Sabbath Day? Are they a Christian or in need of salvation?

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 ---Alan on 1/30/10
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Jesus said to eat with UNWASHED HANDS does not defile. Jesus NEVER said to eat what you want. that would be contrary to His fathers will.

Again, All gentiles who have come to christ, are under a very Jewish covenant. There are no seperate laws for jews and gentiles

The NT was writen mianly to correct bad habits and thoelogy. There was a bad theology about circumsision, and that was corrected.
There was a bad theolgy about eating clean meats sold in the public market, that was corrected.
There was Never any controversy about keeping sabbath

All christians continued to keep the sabbath as indicated n the NT

THIS IS MY CHALLENGE: FINE ONE VERSE IN THE NT that SAYS DONOT KEEP SABBATH or KEEP FIRST DAY.
---francis on 2/4/10


TWO TPYES of SABBATH

There is the sabbath in the Ten commandments which refers back to creation, and then there are sabbaths in the Law of Moses( Sanctuary laws) which referr to feasts

make the distinction.

the 10 commandments sabbath is an eternal Law which cannotbe changed : See egenesis 2 and isaiah 66

The laws given to moses concerning feast are done away on the cross
see hebrews 8,9 and 10
---francis on 2/4/10


Two common misconeptions

#1: Law of Moses and Ten commandments are the same.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


#2: There are different laws for Hebrew christians and Gentile christians.

That is FALSE.

God made a Covenant ONLY with Irsael and Judah, In which He promised to put the TEN COMMANDMENTS in thier hearts.

Any gentile that seeks to follow after Jesus, is then a follower of a Jewish covenant.
---francis on 2/4/10


While some may agree with Ed on abstaining from food types that may not be beneficial, there is nothing in the Bible that restrictes Christians from eating what is viewed as ritually unclean foods (defined in Leviticus).

Jesus told us that whatever goes into the body, is processed and goes out the drain. It is not what we eat the defiles us but what comes from the heart. Furthermore Scipture is very clear that we are not to judge others on what they may or may not eat. See Romans 14:2, Colossians 2,16, and 1 Tim. 4:4-5. lee1538

I disagree with your first paragraph but your second has a good point. We are not to JUDGE others based on what they eat. GOD gave us a better diet to live healthier. It is not a issue about Salvation.
---Samuel on 2/4/10


Jerry, your remarks are the very reason I believe your denomination is a cult. You cannot except the fact that Lee has answered just about every point that any of you have given and he has done a remarkable job doing it. I have not read where he says to you that you are of your father the devil. Not once. Calling a denomination a cult does not say you are of the devil. But that its teachings are not the same as what is considered the essentials of the Christian faith. Lee is one of the one's who opposes your views and has done a great job answering all of you, maybe that is why you say what you say.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10




jerry6593:

Yet didn't Paul also call Peter a Judaizer (Galatians 2:14), because in addition to Christ's grace, he taught people to keep the law of Moses? How is what people are doing today different from what happened back then?
---StrongAxe on 2/4/10


The early Church, as outlined in the Book of Acts, observed the (7th day) Sabbath. This was AFTER the Resurrection of the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS). It was also AFTER the initial Filling of the HOLY SPIRIT. This honouring of the Sabbath included any Gentile convert. The LORD is judging His people, right now, as you read this, on what they're doing in regards to His True Sabbath. If you're a Sunday Saint, and are now reading about the True 7th day Sabbath, it will be up to YOU to find out if this is true or not. And you will have to deal with it before the LORD. We Saints are all held accountable, before GOD, for what we know, and for the "new" things we find out about, and for those "new" things that are brought to our attention.
---Gordon on 2/4/10


But should we also become Jewish, be physically circumcised, go to the temple, observe all the national feasts, etc.? Lee1538

No. He showed that the Jews did not obseve Sabbath correctly and spoke on how to observe it. This was used to teach the church. Also Paul speaks against judging others on Sabbath keeping. Which many today judge others for keeping Sabbath against this teaching.


Gal. 4:24 says we were redeemed from the law.Lee1538

No it doesen't Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

The curse of the law is death. I am glad you agree we have much to learn from all the bible.
---Samuel on 2/4/10


Lee: I reiterate:

Anyone who calls a fellow Jesus-loving believer a "cultist" or a "Judaizer" is not worthy of the name "Christian", but such are of their father, the "accuser of the brethren."
---jerry6593 on 2/4/10


To Lee1538
Hebrew 8:8,9 does not answer my question.
The statement in the 10-12 verse is things that have not yet come to pass.

Why do you concern yourself about a letter addressed to the Hebrews? Gentiles were never under the Levi priesthood. What you are so proud to talk about is the Noah covenant, which is for all the Gentiles. It was just what they used in Acts to clarify what was need for Salvation of the nations (Gentiles).
---Ed on 2/3/10




Ed-//Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

I do not see the word 'Gentiles' in the Greek version from which the AV was created.

If Sabbath obserance was a part of the theology and practice of Gentile Christians they would have needed instruction on how to observe the Sabbath.

The believers in Corinth asked many questions about Christian conduct but they do not include anything on how to observe the Sabbath.

Coupled with other evidence on this issue, it is obvious that Sabbath keeping was NOT taught or expected of Gentile Churches.

Sorry but your contention is really lacking any substance whatsoever.
---lee1538 on 2/3/10


While some may agree with Ed on abstaining from food types that may not be beneficial, there is nothing in the Bible that restrictes Christians from eating what is viewed as ritually unclean foods (defined in Leviticus).

Jesus told us that whatever goes into the body, is processed and goes out the drain. It is not what we eat the defiles us but what comes from the heart. Furthermore Scipture is very clear that we are not to judge others on what they may or may not eat. See Romans 14:2, Colossians 2,16, and 1 Tim. 4:4-5.

And if we wish to view church history we will find that the successors of the Apostles did not teach dietary laws to Gentile churches.

And again the flesh loves loves to be religious.
---lee1538 on 2/3/10


How can part of the law (things strangled, and abstain from blood) be continued while the other parts of the very same chapter by Moses be discontinued?

The scriptures PLAINLY tell that GENTILE believers, were NOT required to adhere to the whole of JEWISH law.

In those days, as well, there were some who tried to force their Jewishness upon the new believers.

The apostles reassured the new Christians.
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" to whom we gave no such commandment
Gentile believers were free to celebrate the Sabbath, but it was never required.
---Donna66 on 2/3/10


francis on 2/3/10///Things strangled, and blood are part of the dietary laws
---
As much as I would like to agree with you about the dietary laws I can't, The Noah Covenant is for all nations (gentiles) salvation and is what they were talking about In Acts. However the Sabbath was set up even before that and has no exclusion in the Bible anywhere.
I do keep the dietary laws for several reasons.
1. to be a disciple of Yeshua means, we are students who learn his ways and try to become like him.
2. they are really for our benefit.
---Ed on 2/3/10


Ed - to answer your question as to what happened to Hebrews 8:10-12, you only need to read verses 8 thru 9 =

"For he finds fault with them when he says: Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt."

Are you not at fault for believing the New Covenant was simply a re-hash of the Old, that the location was the only thing that changed - from the tablets to the heart?

There was even a change in priesthood and with a change of the priesthood, a change in the law. Hebrews 7:12.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


LEE> things strangled and abstaining from blood comes the the very same books of deuteronomy that people clam is not binding.

how can part of the law ( things strangled, and abstain from bllod) be continued while the other parts of the very same chapter be discontinued

As to hearing moses on sabbath day
here is the text:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Why are these gentiles here on sabbath?
why not on sunday?
Why Next sabbath, why not Next day?

read my next post
---francis on 2/3/10


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Lee1538///Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10

That is true for then you become one of the chosen Peoples of GOD, an Israelite, not a Gentile anymore.
---Ed on 2/3/10


Did the Jerusalem council tells the Gentiles they must observe the law of Moses, esp. the Sabbath law?

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" -to whom we gave no such commandment -

According to Acts 15:5 the original charge was the Gentiles needed to be circumcised AND obey the law of Moses.

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the Sabbath as well as the Levitical dietary laws are part of the law of Moses. (see 1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra3:2)
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Acts 13:42> the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:43> many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together

verse 42 There are gentiles there on the sabbath to hear the good news. If it was true that the apostles met on sundays, these gentiles would have met on sunday

verse 43: there were other christians worshiping that sabbath,paul says to them CONTINUE in the grace

verse 44: IF the apostles met every sunday, the gentiles would have met with them. But No, they met as usual NEXT SABBATH
---francis on 2/3/10


Donna66 on 2/3/10

The rest of the NT passages deal with other things that all believers are to observe, EX ample: honour father and mother, do not take Gods name in vain, do not commit adultery, do not kill, none of these are mention in Acts 21 as thing to do by gentile converts.
are we saying that gentile converts were free to covet, commit adultery, steal, worship false gods, dishonour pareants?

The gentiles would learn more about what god required by attending church every sabbath, because in every city the torah ( words of Moses) was being taught every sabbath


If the word of God was bring taught every sunday, it would read as such... Moses of old...every 1st day
---francis on 2/3/10


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Gal. 4:24 we were redeemed from the law.

To be redeemed from the Law means you have been redeemed from it's curse: death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

Without true faith in Christ, the Law means nothing to them, it's just a bunch of old Laws, that have no value.

WITHOUT TRUE faith in Christ, His righteousness is not united with you. You are not empowered by the cross, the Holy Spirit to underdstand and walk after the Law of Righteousness.

Those under the Law: those without Christ, though they might see themselves in Christ BUT they are not. Pharisees, most Jews SAW themselves in Christ but were not!

The evidence: they kept THEIR traditions THAT VOIDED commandments of the Father!
---Paul9594 on 2/3/10


Acts continues...Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things,
:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
as for Moses and the sabbath day...Exodus 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
---MIchael on 2/3/10


Samuel //The purpose of the law to teach us and brings us to JESUS is still active today.

True as scripture tells us once the law has accomplished its function as our guardian (or schoolmaster) to lead us to Christ, the law is no longer required.

So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. Galatians 3:24f

And this means that since we became sons of God thru faith, we became 'partakers of the divine nature' (2 Pet.1:4).

To go back under the law would be to deny that very nature God has given us in our spiritual rebirth.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Samuel //But Sabbath observance is shown and practiced by JESUS in the Gospels ....

Yes, Jesus was Jewish and observed all the laws of Moses. But should we also become Jewish, be physically circumcised, go to the temple, observe all the national feasts, etc.?

Gal. 4:24 says we were redeemed from the law.

//Also Scripture is clear what was written in the Old Covenant is for the church to learn from. Romans 15:4 I cor 10:11

Yes, we have much to learn from the Old Testament even thro Christ became the mediator of a New Covenant. To understand the New Covenant we need the Old.

We are to live by faith walking in His Spirit, to nurture that new nature given to us at our spiritual rebirth, not reform the old nature.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


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Francis-
Another passage in Acts clarifies things.

Acts 21:24b...thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

There is no further instruction here regarding other dietary laws. There is also NO instruction here, NOR in the passage you cite, that Gentiles observe the "Sabbath".
---Donna66 on 2/3/10


But the Old Covenant was declared obsolete in Hebrew 8:13
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10

If the new covent is now, what happened to Hebrew 8:10-12?!

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
---Ed on 2/3/10


Francis //Things strangled, and blood are part of the dietary laws, and the gentiles are asked to follow the teachings of Moses as taught every sabbath ( not every sunday)

NO Gentiles were NOT asked to follow the teachings of Moses as the Jerusalem council made that perfectly clear as did also much that Paul wrote about.

The purpose of the Jerusalem council was to determine if Gentile converts needed to become Jewish to be genuine believers in Christ. Physical circumcision was merely the rite of entrance into Judaism under which case one became obligated to observe all the laws of Moses.

Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Francis - Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

These sabbath meetings where Moses was read were Jewish meetings, places established form ancient times, in the dispersion. But these characteristics do NOT fit the early Christian assemblies many of which met in homes (Rom. 16:5, 1 Cor. 16:19, Col 4:15, etc.)

I believe the restrictions regarding the eating of blood was merely a compromise to Jewish believers, as these practices were most offensive to Jews and would have hindered Christian witness.

The view believers were commanded to go to Jewish synagogues and be taught by unbelievers is totally ludricrous, the church had it own instruction.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


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lee writes:
And sabbath observance and dietary laws are NOT in the New Covenant of His church.

The apostle paul writes:

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Things strangled, and blood are part of the dietary laws, and the gentiles are asked to follow the teachings of Moses as taught every sabbath ( not every sunday)
---francis on 2/3/10


While true, it is also a fact "He (Jesus) is the mediator of a new covenant, Hebrew 9:15.Lee1538

Agreed and true.

And since a covenant can be viewed as a legally binding agreement between parties, one cannot be held accountable for whatever is NOT in the covenant. And sabbath observance and dietary laws are NOT in the New Covenant of His church. Lee1538

But Sabbath observance is shown and practiced by JESUS in the Gospels written to the church. Also Scripture is clear what was written in the Old Covenant is for the church to learn from. Romans 15:4 I cor 10:11

The purpose of the law to teach us and brings us to JESUS is still active today.
---Samuel on 2/3/10


//If the sabbath commandment is NOT part of the new Covenant, then is the 1st commandment part of the new covenant?

You will find ALL the commandments given on Mt. Sinai in the New Covenant EXCEPT the Sabbath commandment which was the sign of the Covenant God gave only to Israel.

The 10 commandments IS the old Covenant.

Ex 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

But the Old Covenant was declared obsolete in Hebrew 8:13
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


//if the Sabbath commandment is not part of the New Covenant, why then is it observed in the Earth made New?

That section of Scripture speaks of a renewed Levitical priesthood. However, the Levitical priesthood pointed forward to the time of Christ.

I suspect the reason God did not impose the Sabbath commandment onto the church was under the Old Covenant it has become a terrible burden fraught with too many man-make rules.

Also the Gentile world did NOT observe the Sabbath since the Gentile church was mostly slaves and lower economic class, it would have been very impractical to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

And we see no teachings on Sabbath observance from the successors of the Apostles.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


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LEE
If the sabbath commandment is NOT part of the new Covenant, then is the 1st commandment part of the new covenant?

And if the Sabbath commandment is not part of the New Covenant, why then is it observed in the Earth made New?


Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
---francis on 2/3/10


Samuel //This makes the teaching of JESUS part of Torah law on loving GOD. Not something new HE invented. But JESUS gave the Torah.

While true, it is also a fact "He (Jesus) is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant". Hebrew 9:15.

And since a covenant can be viewed as a legally binding agreement between parties, one cannot be held accountable for whatever is NOT in the covenant. And sabbath observance and dietary laws are NOT in the New Covenant of His church.

I believe the Scripture is quite clear on these issues.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut. 10,12, 11,13, 30,6 This makes the teaching of JESUS part of Torah law on loving GOD. Not something new HE invented. But JESUS gave the Torah.

JESUS said Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Now you can say that man here means only Jews but it is not the right words. All the ceremonial sabbaths point to part of JESUS mission. The Sabbath in the commandment points to creation and heaven. We are under the New Covenant but that does not mean all moral laws are done away with. Romand 3:31
---Samuel on 2/3/10


21st century israel, or destruction of the temple. Both would take place long after jesus died.

jesus reference to the sabbath at that time ( 21st centure israel or when the temple was attacked) is an indication that Jesus knew that his followers would be keeping the sabbath in the future.

No this has nothing to do with busses not running on the sabbath. Sabbath is a day of rest, most people are not prepared to flee on the sabbath.

Most christians are in church on the sabbath, they can easily be rounded up by the emimies on that day.

read my next post
---Francis on 2/3/10


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Gordon //Many of the problems that Christians have in the Church today are a direct result of their SIN.

The problem in the church today is we tend to preach that the old nature must be made to obey laws. If we attempt to live by the flesh in obeying law instead of abiding in Christ we will certainly fail.

The Christian who lives by faith rather than by rules, is the one who experiences the inner discipline of God which is far better than the outer discipline of the law. (Hebr. 12:6f,Php. 2:13f, Eph. 2:10)

Obedience to the law will not make us more spiritual.

No Christian continues to practice sin if he depends on God's grace, yields to God's Spirit, lives for others, and seeks to glorify God.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


Two things are forgotten here:
#1: The sabbath was created BEFORE SIN, thus it cannot be part of the MOSIAC LAW. The Mosiac law came into exestance when god called and gave him (sanctuary laws)

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

Sabbath existed before Mnoses was born, and it cannot be called a Law of Moses or cerimonial law

#2: God has NEVER made any covenant with Gentiles. Those who are not hebrew, have accepted a Jewish / hebrew covernant.

The Gentiles who accepted the new covenant, also accepted the unchanged Law of God written in thier hearts.
Isaiah 56: the Sabbath is for Jebrews and none hebrews.
---francis on 2/3/10


//Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The subject Jesus was addressing in that section was the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem.

Yes indeed, IF you are under the old Torah law or in a country that is orthodox Jewish, you will have a problem in the winter or on a Sabbath day since accommodations will be hard to come by and one would have to violate the commandment to even travel on the Sabbath.

Bear in mind that Matthew was written to Jewish Christians, so clearly Gentile believers who not need heed the command to pray your flight be not in winter or on the OT sabbath, the latter of which they did not keep.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


//Jesus did not change the law.
he fully expected his folowers to be keeping the sabbath day ...

He never taught by His Spirit we must observe the Jewish Sabbath. Romans 14:5f tells us it is an optional thing as was circumcision, the dietary laws, and other Jewish rites.

Secondly, you IGNORE that Jesus came to REDEEM US FROM THE LAW.

Gal.4:4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to REDEEM those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

The believer is no longer under law but under grace (Rom.6:14), does not need the EXTERNAL force of law to keep in God's will bec he has the INTERNAL leading of the Spirit of God.
---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


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Francis:

Perhaps Jesus was looking forwards towards 21st century Israel - where you had better not try to go anywhere on the Sabbath, because the buses aren't running.

(I am not saying that this is the the reason Jesus gave his warning, it is merely a plausible alternative. We can't know for sure which one is true. We must be wary before categorically putting words into somebody's head, as much as putting them into somebody's mouth).
---StrongAxe on 2/3/10


The audience which you address are the Jews. The Jerusalem Council addresses the new gentile converts. Modern day Judaizers would have us go backward to the Law which the scriptures calls false teachers. Modern day Judaizers believe in their heart they are serving God just like the Jews of the past, however they are attempting to serve the Law.
---Alan on 2/3/10


Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Somehow, it is hard to imagine jesus making reference to a sabbath day in the future, if he knew that there would be no sabbath day after his death.

Jesus did not change the law.
he fully expected his folowers to be keeping the sabbath day holy until he came back.

Jesus said he prayed that the disciples did not have to flee on the sabbath. This was in reference to the last days.
So jesus expects all his followers to keep the sabbath until he comes, and then again in the New heavens and new Earth.
---Francis on 2/3/10


Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I wonder why they were not preaching Moses on the first day in every city?

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Wonder why they waited NEXT SABBATH rather than next day ( sunday)

Church met every sabbath, not sunday
---francis on 2/3/10


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Alan, Many of the problems that Christians have in the Church today are a direct result of their SIN. If the Church would regard walking in and living in Moral Holiness, as it is layed out in the 10 Commandments, they would have a lot less of these "problems". The many in the Church, lead by their Pastors, REFUSE to learn about and speak about SIN and it's consequences, and then, Hell and the ensuing Eternal Lake of Fire. There is a need to know that GOD is a GOD of Wrath against sin, including WILLFUL SIN of the Believer! GOD hates sin, rebellion and disobedience to His Commands. Btw, How am I a "Judaizer"? I do not state that the Church has to follow the 613 Mosaic Laws, nor the Pharisee's interpretation of GOD's Laws.
---Gordon on 2/3/10


Much of the new testament was written to address the Judaizer, therefore I don't think that the Bible takes the issue lightly. Either one is in Jesus Christ or as the Judaizer following the Law. The modern Judaizers are attempting to follow the Law versus Jesus Christ. That wasn't Biblical during the early church nor is it today. I have noticed that the Judaizers that use this site tend to respond mostly to questions of placing the Law on Christians and very little to help Christians with Biblical answers to other topics. False prophets and false teachers are some words the Bible uses for this group. Please take notice enough to consider your unbiblical ways and come to Christ not the Law.
---Alan on 2/3/10


Jerry //1Co 1:12,13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?

And Adventists would add to that lising, Ellen White whom they put on the same level as the Apostles themselves.

Golly man, she was booted out of a church that preached the gospel as she beleived the visions she was suffering superceded the Word of God.

And to make matters even worst, there are far too many Adventists that reject her beliefs. If you were to open your eyes you would see most of the criticism of her and certain Adventists beliefs are coming from former Adventists.



---Lee1538 on 2/3/10


OK, the gentle rhetoric didn't work.

Anyone who calls a fellow Jesus-loving believer a "cultist" or a "Judaizer" is not worthy of the name "Christian", but such are of their father, the "accuser of the brethren." They fractionate the fellowship of believers, and are no different than the troublemakers in Bible times, as:

1Co 1:12,13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?
---jerry6593 on 2/3/10


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\\The Sabbath Day is not a ceremonial law \\

This is one of the lies of the neo-judaizers. The false distinction between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws is NOT one that the Bible itself makes.

\\on RCC's authority she changed Gods Holy Sabbath command given forever to the suns-day and boldly tells the world all who worship and serve this day serve her because Gods Word does not abolish the Holy Sabbath
---Rhonda on 2/2/10\\

This is another lie they tell. Apostolic churches which had nothing to do with Rome had Sunday as the main day of worship.

In short, the Sabbath commandment had NOTHING to do with worship--services were held daily--but REST FROM LABOR.
---Cluny on 2/2/10


//The Sabbath Day is not a ceremonial law.

As it is clearly an observance limited only to the Jewish nation and is NOT universal in nature, it is NOT a moral law.

//The Sabbath Day is not for the Jew ...a very popular lie taught in religious christianity.

The Sabbath was ONLY observed by the Jewish community, not by any other nation. In fact, it was a sign of the covenant made between God & Israel (Exodus 31:17)

//The Sabbath Day is one of the Gods Laws otherwise known as the ten commandments.

But nowhere commanded or even hinted as a command for His church.

//a modern day Judaizer is taught by religious christianity who ...from their MOTHER RCC who HATES Jews

Mere distortion of history
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


Rhonda //on RCC's authority she changed Gods Holy Sabbath command given forever to the suns-day and boldly tells the world all who worship and serve this day serve her because Gods Word does not abolish the Holy Sabbath

We sure wish you would read something else besides that trash that olde Ellen White put out.

Even SDA historians can tell you and provide all kinds of historical records that would indicate the church no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath after the end of the first century.

AND contrary to what you would want to believe, the early church was NOT all Roman Catholic.

the SDA are the children of Hagar and the descendents of the Judaizers.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


The Sabbath Day is not a ceremonial law

The Sabbath Day is not for the Jew ...a very popular lie taught in religious christianity

The Sabbath Day is one of the Gods Laws otherwise known as the ten commandments

a modern day Judaizer is taught by religious christianity who accepted this concept from their MOTHER RCC who HATES Jews

on RCC's authority she changed Gods Holy Sabbath command given forever to the suns-day and boldly tells the world all who worship and serve this day serve her because Gods Word does not abolish the Holy Sabbath
---Rhonda on 2/2/10


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Francis//God wrote TEN COMMANDMENTS which Jesus did not change.

He essentially summarized them into 2 simple laws, to love the Lord God with all you heart, mind & soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Romans 13:10 states love of neighbor fulfills the law, not obedience to rules.

No where did He teach the observance of the olde Jewish sabbath but even told us thru His Spirit that we need not observe any day as holy (Romans 14:5f) and He even declared all foods clean (Mark 7:18f, 1 Tim.4:3f).

Those that brag about their religion observing all the 10 commandments are the religionists and the flesh really loves loves loves to be religious.

In their pride, they expect to tell Jesus how well they obeyed Him.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


Those that advocate adherence to the old Torah law such as keeping the Ten Commandments have fallen into the same trap as the Galatians. They begin with the Spirit but sought perfection thru the flesh.

The Judaizers taught if you follow rules, you can become a more spiritual person, be enabled to improve themselves by measuring themselves to the standard of the law.

In their pride seek the compliments of others, such living in the flesh will eventually produce rebellion as they try to make the old nature obey God's laws.

The Christian who lives by faith will experience the inner discipline of God and will never become a rebel if he depends on God's grace, yields to God's Spirit, lives for others, & seeks to glorify God.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


ashle7439 on 1/31/10
one of the best posts i've read. keep up the study and god bless
---michael_e on 2/2/10


The Bible is the sole source of teachings for Seventh Day Adventist

There is not one verse in the entire Bible that refers to Jesus as our sabbath rest.
If Jesus was, or is our sabbath rest today, why the need for sabbath in the new heavens and new earth?
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

The Seventh Day adventist church teaches TEN COMMANDMENTS not nine.

God wrote TEN COMMANDMENTS which Jesus did not change.
---Francis on 2/2/10


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"Judaizers" are not relying on God's COMPLETE salvation/"purification" (Heb. 1:3).

Hebrews 9:13
"purification of the flesh".....(salvation OF THE FLESH).

In the "ceremonial" devotion, the CONSCIENCE of a person could not be purified....

Hebrews 9:9
"gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience".

....(but having a heavenly/Godlike spirit/demeanor of our own allows us to have a clear conscience, Ephesians 1:14,"GUARANTEE").

The Israelites were baptized into Moses, but our "inner temple"/self shall be baptized into the outer temple (Jesus)...

1 Corinthians 10:2
"and all were baptized into Moses".
---more_excellent_way on 2/2/10


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Do you realize that james could have included any of the Ten commandments?
EXAMPLE:

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet DO NOT KEEP THE SABBATH DAY HOLY, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

He that said is GOD, and God said ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS
---francis on 2/2/10


ALAN, The Sabbath Commandment is NOT one of the Ceremonial Laws! This is the problem with the Sunday Church who adamantly fight against the 7th Day Sabbath. They lump the Sabbath Day with the Ceremonial Laws of Moses, like Circumcision, etc. When all along, the Sabbath is a separate Commandment put among the 10 Commandments of Love, Holiness and Morality! If Saints want to argue AGAINST the 7th Day Sabbath, at least do some research on the subject and "show yourselves APPROVED!" The Sabbath Commandment has nothing to do with the 613+ Mosaic/Ceremonial Laws. Instead of just "arguing" from the knowledge you obtained from what you learned all your life growing up in the (Sunday) Church, or however..Research, instead!!
---Gordon on 2/2/10


Are modern day Judaizers Christian or not?

Consider the conflict Paul had with Judaizers who wanted to have Titus circumcised.

But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in-who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery - to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. Ga.2:3f

Note he does not denounce them as being Christians but simply refers to them as false brothers.

These kind will cause Christians to be slaves to Jewish laws and thus sterile and fruitless when it comes to the gospel.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


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Dear Mark thank you.

The first purpose of the law is to teach us we are sinners and need to be saved it also teaches us we cannot save ourseves because we cannot atone for sins. The scripture teaches we cannot save ourself it is only JESUS who saves and that by HIS Grace alone. We all need to remeber Luke 17.

Jerry good point. Our denomination or teachings do not save us. In a recent Sabbath school lesson I taught it included the question if one person was wrong in doctrine but loved GOD and loved others and another was correct in doctrine but did not show love to others which is truly saved? Our answer was the one who loves.
---Samuel on 2/2/10


Samuel, thanks for writing down what you did at the end of your response,
"We believe in JESUS and are under the New Covenant. "Sola faith alone, Sola Grace alone and Sols Scripture are foundational beliefs in our church."
If that was the case everyone in the denomination the emphesis would not be the Law, but faith in Jesus Christ along. You are not like many of them. A few keep bringing the Law to judge others, as Jerry and others do. Then he doesn't like people to call him a judaizer or the denomination a cult. So long as the as the Law, is their fundamental believe for salvation, Grace will never take root, because pride will not allow it. There is no pride in Grace, we come humbly with nothing.
---MarkV. on 2/2/10


Donna66: I tend to agree that this sort of thing is the same old "us vs. them" mentality that the weak-minded seem to cling to. It is as if they can get to heaven by associating with the right group - kind of "salvation by denomination." Whereas, we know that true salvation is found in a PERSONAL (not corporate) relationship with Christ. Besides, if the "right" religion were determined by which denomination had the most members, we'd all be Muslims. Don't they think that all us Christians are cultists, too?
---jerry6593 on 2/2/10


I have no way of knowing if they are Christian or not.

I do know that it is the nature of man to want to feel themselves better than others, or at least to feel deserving of Christ's favor. The Gospel of Christ doesn't allow this, since we all approach the cross on an equal footing and our only righteousness is that which is imputed by Jesus Christ or enabled by Him.

But in any church, denomination, sect and cult, you see people trying to take credit for whatever they perceive as righteousness.
The more laws and ceremonies they adopt, the easier this is to do.

By emphasizing these as a way to meet what they see as God's expectations, they lift themselves up and (often subconsciously) satisfy their pride.
---Donna66 on 2/1/10


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The answer to the first question is "yes." They are considered a cult. The answer to the second is."Only God can see the heart of a person so only He knows who is save and who is not. Not even Eloy knows, he who seems to tell everyone to get save. We can make a judgment by what they write concerning the Bible but those judgments are not always correct.
---MarkV. on 2/1/10


The focus of the Seventh day Adventist church is to follow JESUS and keep HIM at the center of our lives.

Others focus on the issue we believe that GOD gave Ten Commandments not suggestions and try to only discuss disagreements. Then because they start telling us we are wrong they declare that the argument they start is the focus.

We believe in JESUS and are under the New Covenant. Sola faith alone, Sola Grace alone and Sols Scripture are foundational beliefs in our church.
---Samuel on 2/1/10


I don't know the answer to your question but I will say this: God judges by the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We don't know why people solely focus on ceremonial laws, etc., Maybe they are trying to be holy and don't know how, so they get under legalism not knowing Jesus can set them free.

I have always said people don't know how to come to know Him and be in a love relationship with him, so until we know the reason why these folks follow law and are under legalism, we can't call them a cult, etc., Can we?
---Donna on 2/1/10


Sounds like you are then promoting as a cult for today the modern day Judaizer when their sole focus is on ceremonial laws such as the Sabbath Day by comparing that to the early church. Your response answers my question in full. Thanks you.
---Alan on 2/1/10


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there are many issues today,secular issues that most christians sadly believe are important.Jesus spoke to the apostles,telling them about the birds of the air,how God feeds them,about the beautiful flowers, and how well and beautifully they were dressed,then how God knows your needs.But sadly too many christians are worldly,in both thought,and decision making in almost every area of their lives.
---tom2 on 2/1/10


Alan: I'm sure that you're aware that the early Christians were considered a "cult", and that they were called the most disparaging of terms and even considered enemies of the state. When we engage in similar religious bigotry by calling people of other denominations "cultists" or "Judaizers", we imitate those early anti-christians and demean our own Christian character. We can show the non-biblical basis of other's doctrines without the childish name-calling.

[By the way, I took the CN "cults" quizz and scored 100%]
---jerry6593 on 2/1/10


God has given different laws to different people at different times.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8), but this scripture refers to God's character and nature, not to His laws for men.
A careful study of scripture will guide you regarding the Old Testament (OT) laws Jesus fulfilled in the New Testament (NT).
To grasp my concept please read the scriptures.
Examples:
Circumcision
OT Gen. 17:9-14 Required
NT I Cor. Gal. 5:1-8 No longer required
Levitical priesthood
OT Ex. 40:12-16 Required
NT Heb. 7:11-18 No longer required
Animal sacrifices
OT Lev. 1:1-17 Required
NT Heb. 10:1-18 No longer required
Holy days
OT Lev. 23:1-44 Required
NT Col. 2:14-23 No longer required.
---ashle7439 on 1/31/10


I'll let God decide their salvation or not.
---KarenD on 1/30/10


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Yes this is Cult. Yes, they need to meet the real Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. Remember that Jesus hated legalism and doomed those who practiced it to hell. Also, anyone who preaches another Gospel, is accursed according to scripture. Bible says that we are "saved by grace through faith and not of works that any man should boast". It does not say that we are saved by Sabbath keeping and proper eating, through works. Many cults stress various works.
---jody on 1/30/10


The SABBATH REST is no longer a 24 hour time period. JESUS's BODY is our sabbath rest.

He completed "the works of God" (John 6:28 and 9:3) so that we could REST/relax IN HIM.

There is a COMPLETE difference between the old ceremonial relationship and the NEW, so, the answer would be YES, those who have a CEREMONIAL DEVOTION definitely do need the...
......"GUARANTEE" of the INHERITANCE because we were sealed with the SPIRIT, not CEREMONY...

Ephesians 1:14
"which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory".

John 7:39
"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".
---more_excellent_way on 1/30/10


It certainly is cultic.
---Cluny on 1/30/10


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