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Israel Same As Bible

Is the Israel of the Middle East the real Israel spoken of in Scripture?

Moderator - No, it isn't.

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 ---MarkV. on 2/1/10
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Likewise true believers have died to the law.. (7:4) Likewise, my BROTHERS, you ALSO have died TO the law ..Do you bear fruit for God? ---Lee1538 on 3/2/10

Some times a forest of fruit (denom)trees bear no figs. Christ cursed one like this.

The law you mention was given to Israel. Only Israel. All nations of. When the Northern House was divorced...doomed under laws mentioned. All mankind was not divorced. Only Israel was married. Only Israel had a covenant. Only Israel is mentioned in New Covenant. The death of husband widowed all Israel. Both houses. Freeing them from law. This is why it is mentioned. Look up marriage,divorce,husband,redeem,only,loved,sheep,wife,peculiar,known only...you may get a glimpse.
---Trav on 3/2/10


This also doesn't say that only Israel shall be saved, for He will provoke Israel to jealousy by the salvation of the Gentiles(those who were not His chosen) else the great proclamation be in vain.. ---MIchael on 3/2/10

If you'll read the prophets it says all Israel.
He provoked them by a nation (divorced Nth House of Israel)through Jealousy now. 2,000 years. He didn't speak in vain.
Gentile means: Ethnos, Nations. Look it up. What is a Roman Catholic latin word doing replacing Nations? Ethnos? Research it.
....then shall she say, I will go and return to my FIRST HUSBAND, for then was it better with me than now.
Hosea 2:6-8
---Trav on 3/2/10


I don't know that Trav believes this, but I mention this because you asked how people can believe they can be saved apart from Jesus. Orator John Hagee believes this, and many Christians listen to him.
---Rod4Him on 3/2/10

Even the elect can be fooled these days.

Hagee's whole ministry is wrapped around Judah. The cursed tree. He misinterprets Israel to just mean Judah. Noteworthy that he never considers the other 11 diciples who actually represent the other nations of Israel. He picks the bad fig. An evil fig himself by mark.

Now if you are wondering about the other 11 disciples comment, read Revelations where they will be each be assigned to a gate judging the 12 tribes of Israel as they come into the city.
---Trav on 3/2/10


Paul9594
Amen Paul, some are given the gift to see and some are not.
Mathew 5:15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let YOUR LIGHT SO SHINE BEFORE MEN, that they may see your good WORKS AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN.
I am glad you have been circumcised of the heart and understand the meat of the scripts. For as Yeshua
quoted Isiah in Mathew 15,
"9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the
commandments of men.",
most who do it, don't understand that is what they do.
Peace unto you all.
---Ed on 3/2/10


So, just Israel to be saved, the new covenant applies to noone else.. keep reaching there trav cd. I hope you are of Israel, lest ye become a hypocrite.
---MIchael on 3/2/10

What part of Hebrews 8:8 do you not understand michael? I'll provide a prophet for it. It is a reach but, when one swims away from the prophets directions pointing its not a prophets fault.

Now you listed the best part. Whether I am or I am not Israel I am peace about it. GOD can love whoever he wants to. Marry,divorce and rearrange a new marriage if he wants. It's stated. I'm going along with whether puppy's do or not.
Matthew 20:14-16 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
---Trav on 3/2/10




Who are God's chosen people? and who are the true Jews? Jesus says: "Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a person be born again, that one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. For whosoever will Do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. If a person love me, that one will keep my commandments: and I will raise that one up at the last day. That one who overcomes will I grant to sit with me on my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with Father of me on his throne."
---Eloy on 3/2/10


Lee1538:
You asked:
Did God tell us to observe these feasts or did God simply write selective OT laws onto the heart? Pls answer this post.

Yes, The Father writes IN OUR HEARTS, ALL His laws EVEN His appointed days(feasts), in their spiritual intent IF WE HAVE faith in the power of His blood, His Holy Spirit to ULTIMATELY TRANSFORM US in the likeness of Christ.

Even the Intent of the Sacrificial Laws ARE KEPT as we offer Christ's blood as our sin offering. The blood of animals just TEMPORARILY illustrated the death of Christ the lamb, His Shed blood for the forgiveness of OUR sins AND IT'S power to be delivered from OUR sins! Well, this is a short answer.
---Paul9594 on 3/2/10


Lee1538:
You asked:
Did God tell us to observe these feasts or did God simply write selective OT laws onto the heart? Pls answer this post.

Yes, The Father writes IN OUR HEARTS, ALL His laws EVEN His appointed days(feasts), in their spiritual intent IF WE HAVE faith in the power of His blood, His Holy Spirit to ULTIMATELY TRANSFORM US TO the likeness of Christ.

Even the Intent of the Sacrificial Laws ARE KEPT as we offer Christ's blood as our sin offering, BY FAITH.

The blood of animals TEMPORARILY illustrated the death of Christ the lamb, His Shed blood for the forgiveness of OUR sins AND ITS power to be delivered from OUR sins! Well, this is a short answer.
---Paul9594 on 3/2/10


Trav ..It is clouded by too much divorce, backsliding, marriage, and again divorce. In the OT people went back and forth. How does that have anything to do with salvation now?
---Bobby1 on 3/2/10

The light will come on if we see where prophets tell us that GOD was married...to Israel. All Israel. Jer 3:14, for instance.

Then he divorced Israel...the northern kingdom nations. Not Judah 1/2 Benj: Jeremiah 3:8...I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah...
God loved Israel and said he would remarry:Isaiah 62:4
Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken, neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate...
To be freed the husband has to die: Get it?
Heb 8:8.
---Trav on 3/2/10


//They don't understand that God clearly said "Whosoever will believe in Jesus will NEVER die, but have everlasting life".

While true the legalists will attach all kinds of conditions beyond simply believing in Jesus and that everlasting life is a gift acquired thru grace, grace being the capability to earn ones salvation thru obedience to such things as Sabbath observance, dietary laws, etc. A justification by law soteriology.

They squawk Jesus said, 'If you love me you will obey my commandments' but they foolishly limit the commandments to the 10 commandments instead of the 2 Jesus gave us (the 1st was not even one of the 10)
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10




Trav -//The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth,...

Romans 7:2 Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.

(7:3)But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Likewise true believers have died to the law that they be married to another.

(7:4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him (Jesus) who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Do you bear fruit for God? If not then there is something wrong.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


MarkV, some people do believe that there is a salvation apart from Jesus Christ. It's an extreme Zionism.

The thinking is that God promised Abramham the land, and since God promised Abramham's descendents the land, God will not break His promise. It's based on the Abramhamic Covenant.

I don't know that Trav believes this, but I mention this because you asked how people can believe they can be saved apart from Jesus. Orator John Hagee believes this, and many Christians listen to him.
---Rod4Him on 3/2/10


Hebr. 8:8,10 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:...For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Exactly what laws did God write on the hearts of believers?

God commanded His people to observe the various feasts - Passover, Weeks, Ingathering, Booths, etc. Ex. 23,34.

Paul9594 did God tell us to observe these feasts or did God simply write selective OT laws onto the heart? Pls answer this post.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10


I missed a question..
Isa 45:17 Speaks of Israel as children of God as opposed to v16 which speak of all idolators(those who do not follow after God)
This doesn't say all Israel shall be saved, for they are not all Israel who are Israel, but by faith you are saved.
This also doesn't say that only Israel shall be saved, for He will provoke Israel to jealousy by the salvation of the Gentiles(those who were not His chosen) else the great proclamation be in vain.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Do you think 'Gentile' in the bible is just the 10?
When a verse says 'Jew first, then Gentile', that only applies to Israel?
---MIchael on 3/2/10


Don't take me out of context.--
(The only ones judged by the laws...under sin of the laws....had the laws Michael).--Trav on 3/1/10
Romans 2:14a For when the Gentiles, which have not the law
You deceive many Trav, either knowingly or unknowingly.---MIchael on 3/1/10
Now Heb 8:8 seperates Israel and Judah as in the divided kingdoms from David. It doesn't mention sheep whether lost or not.
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So, just Israel to be saved, the new covenant applies to noone else.. keep reaching there trav cd. I hope you are of Israel, lest ye become a hypocrite.
---MIchael on 3/2/10


Trav I find it very difficult to understand also what your argument is. It is clouded by too much divorce, backsliding, marriage, and again divorce. In the OT people went back and forth. How does that have anything to do with salvation now?
---Bobby1 on 3/2/10


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You deceive many Trav, either knowingly or unknowingly. ... ---MIchael on 3/1/10

Who is the context of Heb 8:8? Context of Sheep?
Prophets/Apostles point that you/most denom disregard,throw away or give acknowlegement to the wrong party's in scripture. Ask for a prophet to back a statement here on this blog.....will never get an answer. Your preacher/teacher never told you GOD was married. I know. Cause I've never met one that even read it, let alone could understand it. This explains the N.Covenant. Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD, for I am married unto you:
1 Corinthians 7:39
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth,...
---Trav_C.D. on 3/2/10


You deceive many Trav, either knowingly or unknowingly.
... --So Jesus came to save only Israel?
---MIchael on 3/1/10
DIVORCED, Israel hadn't known law.
How can they/we ,you/me be deceived by two or more prophets?
You are cherry picking bad translations (gentiles=ethnos,nations)for your own logic. Most do. We've been schooled in avoiding that that which seemingly doesn't have an explaination. But, prophets explain,and provide a better witness.
Example:Micah 2:12
I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel, I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah...
Witness fulfilled:Matthew 15:24
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
---Trav on 3/2/10


Trav, like Michael, I too have had a problem with what you say or how you state it. I know the bible speaks about Israel as the chosen nation. What they did and how God continued to help them, over and over and then turn them over to their oppressers, then free them again. What is written is for all to see how God helped His people and what His people did. For the believers to witness what happened in the past. But now you are almost saying that there is people from Israel those you speak of that will be saved without faith in Jesus Christ. I don't know how. No matter whether they are Jews, or Gentiles, they all have to have faith in Christ. And you will not admit to that. Is there another way? If so which is the way?
---MarkV. on 3/2/10


Romans 2:14a For when the Gentiles, which have not the law
You deceive many Trav, either knowingly or unknowingly.
Romans 2:9-10 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
These verses tell me the whole world is convicted, Jew(of Israel) and Gentile(not of Israel).
Is this your localized religion theory again?
So where do the 10 tribes fit in? Are you saying 'Gentile' is the 10 only?
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. --So Jesus came to save only Israel?
---MIchael on 3/1/10


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Trav, you go over the same old comments like a skipping cd as if you were programmed.
Simple question: in the context of Romans 3:9, which, Jew or Gentile, represent the other 10 tribes?
---MIchael on 3/1/10

Yeah, the prophets I keep referring had the same problem. They all tell the same story...but, no one appears to be listening.

3:9 We have already made the charge that Jews and Helenes(Grks)(also seeNations/ethnos) alike are all under sin. (Does not say Syrians,asians,eskimo's,Gogites,leprecauns etc.)
(The only ones judged by the laws...under sin of the laws....had the laws Michael). Which is fair. The new covenant is too is The house of Israel and Judah. Ask a prophet why.
---Trav on 3/1/10


Trav, you go over the same old comments like a skipping cd as if you were programmed.
---MIchael on 3/1/10

Isn't that annoying when a C.D. does that?
I find that Israel annoy's/provokes people too. It has you. Matter of fact that what started me studying scripture 13 years ago. I was trying to prove my provoker (C.D.) wrong. If I have one part wrong(the who)...the whole may wrong. I find that in your study and most denoms.

A question for you. Which part of Israel is spoken of below?
Isaiah 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
---Trav on 3/1/10


Trav, you go over the same old comments like a skipping cd as if you were programmed.
Simple question: in the context of Romans 3:9, which, Jew or Gentile, represent the other 10 tribes?
---MIchael on 3/1/10


...Only 2 types, I say Jew is all of Israel in these context. You must be telling me that, other than Judah and Benjamin, everyone is Gentile.
---MIchael on 2/28/10

Judah...was representative of Judah and part of Benj at the time of Christ. The Northern House nations were divorced and amongst the goyim as one who had lost her married name.

Judah never replaces the Northern House Nations.
Christ freed all nations of Israel for remarriage by widowhood. 10 virgins, lost sheep etc.
Isaiah 54:4
.. and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.
---Trav on 3/1/10


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Romans 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin,
Acts 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
Romans 2:9-10 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Only 2 types, I say Jew is all of Israel in these context. You must be telling me that, other than Judah and Benjamin, everyone is Gentile.
---MIchael on 2/28/10



The word 'Jew', for example, is specifically derived from the tribe of Judah, ...

1. ....all Israel in a broader sense, or even children of God in a chosen sense.
---MIchael on 2/27/10

Sounds good but, back to your context basis for communication that is necessary.

1. Michael..provide where Jew is used for all Israel.
---Trav on 2/28/10


Words convey meaning. Both the communicator and recipient must know the meanings of the words used as they are used in context so that the concept is conveyed properly. The word 'Jew', for example, is specifically derived from the tribe of Judah, but also has implication of Benjamin in a Kingdom sense, all Israel in a broader sense, or even children of God in a chosen sense. It all depends on how the word is used, as is true with every word. To say that Jew only refers to the tribe of Judah cannot be applied universally throughout the whole Bible. The history of the line of our Lord Jesus Christ is fascinating and deserves our study, for in which God reveals many things.
Pray we all are blessed as the Truth is revealed to all who seek.
---MIchael on 2/27/10


Judah, Israel, Gentile are seperate if context dictates.
---MIchael on 2/17/10

Isaiah 51:1
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

And 51:2 explains the rock and the pit above for those that may not connect the two scriptures:

2. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

What most are taught or forget is that there is 10x more equalling all Israel than Judah. Ten Times. Amazing,and a witness as well in scripture, that it can be overlooked.
---Trav on 2/26/10


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Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart, who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. 5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. 6 This [is] the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psa 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy, [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Judah, Israel, Gentile are seperate if context dictates.
---MIchael on 2/17/10


Isa49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. ---MIchael on 2/16/10

MIchael....who sees.

Psalm 24:6
This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psalm 53:2
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psalm 119:45
And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
---Trav on 2/17/10


1Jo4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Ti2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness Isa49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Mic5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver
---MIchael on 2/16/10


It depends.

In old testament Israel, judah, jerusalem may referring to: Nation Israel, the Elect ...---rosalie on 2/15/10

Good point, there are over 137 other titles/names/descriptions for Israel too.
Like, Anointed,Battle Axe,Beloved,Dearly Beloved,Betrothed,Blessed,Blessing,Branch,Bride,Chief of Nations,Chosen,Consecrated,Delight,Dew from the Lord,Royal Diadem,Dominion,Eternal Excellency,Sword of,Firstborn,Flock,fountain, fruit, Watered Garden, Glory, Crown of, Heirs of Promise, of Salvation,Heritage,Spiritual house,Inheritance,Jewels,Joy of,Kings,Kingdom,Law givers,Light,Great Lion,Everlasting Love,Mighty Men,Valliant Men,Holy Nation,Island Nation,Mighty Nation,Righteous Nation etc,etc,etc,etc.
---Trav on 2/16/10


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Cont'd
It depends.

In old testament Israel,...---rosalie on 2/15/10

Here are some others...might,recognize someone....
Nation whose God is Lord: Ps33:12,
Nation and Company of Nations, Righteous Nation, Strong Nation,Weathy Nation, Accepted Ones, Gathered 1, Loved 1,Married 1,Revived 1, Sanctified 1,Saved 1s,People of GOD of Abraham,
His People, People Chosen for His Own Inheritance,Colonizing People, Covenant People,Holy People, Pushing People,Purchased People,Righteous People,Separate People,Special People, Portion,Purchased Possession,Kingdom of Priests,Holy Priesthood,Royal Priesthood,Priest of the Lord,Ransomed,REDEEMED,remnant,residue,Trees of Righteousness,Saints,Servants,SHEEP,LOST SHEEP,Green Olive Tree.
---Trav on 2/16/10


It depends.

In old testament Israel, judah, jerusalem may referring to: Nation Israel, the Elect (jews & gentiles), future prophecy of church,

In new testamen: Israel, judah, zion, jerusalem referring to: national Israel, Church, Elect (Heavenly/eternal)Jerusalem.

studay which refering:
Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:16,like 23:28
---rosalie on 2/15/10


when the jews were in egypt they had no land,
---tom2 on 2/14/10

It was all of Israel in Egypt. Judeans were one part, 1/12th.

Moses led them all out remember.
---Trav on 2/15/10


when the jews were in egypt they had no land,when they were in the dessert,when they finally came into the promised land God gave them the land forever,but on several occasions because of their disobidience subjected them to being taken,or removed,the last which was in about 70 ad,by the roman empire,and once by nebacanizer,who daniel was dealing with years before.Israel was actually the name given to jacob,then later the twelve tribes,but the land was also given by God through joshua, by force.
---tom2 on 2/14/10


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Trav, you did not answer my question, you said, Foundational is: Is-ra-el. All Sheep. Wife. Divorced. To be remarried."
are you saying here that even those individuals who are not of the elect, from that or all 12 tribes, will make it? Help me out Trav.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10

No, Saul probably doesn't make it. Esau Jacobs twin brother, of Abraham doesn't make it. Edom, of Esau does not make it.
Israel was to be a blessing to all others.
Who is Israel? Anti Christs in a small slice of the Biblical land? Have they brought you light in your life time, or in 2009 years?
You've got Israel 1/12th mis labeled. Judah does not equal all Israel when you are reading scripture
---Trav on 2/12/10


Trav, you did not answer my question, you said,
"MarkV,some tangles going on here. Foundational is: Is-ra-el. All Sheep. Wife. Divorced. To be remarried."
are you saying here that even those individuals who are not of the elect, from that or all 12 tribes, will make it? Help me out Trav.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10


Trav #2 continue:
Do you see that the Physical Jew does not make it, only the Spiritual one does. The elect.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

MarkV,some tangles going on here. Foundational is: Is-ra-el. All Sheep. Wife. Divorced. To be remarried.
Some Judeans are Judeans. .
Nth House of Israel,Lost Sheep. 10 nations. Unfortunately, but prophetically, translated gentiles. Gentile= Nations, or Ethnos.
Physical Israel...decendants are still around. As the sands of the sea.
Physical Israel...now and future:Ezekiel 37:5
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones, Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
---Trav on 2/10/10


Trav, be patient and walk with me ok? Romans 11:4 say, " But what does the divine response says to him? I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Quote from 1 kings 19:18 for that time. Here God set aside seven thousand of those people. The rest rejected God. Then it says, "Even so then, at this time there is a remnant according to the election of Grace." The time of Jesus, thousands of individual Jews had come to faith in Him (Acts 2:14, 4:4, 6:1). Then verse 7, "What it seek" here in spite of their intense religious zeal the Jews of Paul's day had failed to obtain God's righteousness (Rom. 9:31,32, 10:2, 3). The elect, on the other hand,
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


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Trav #2 continue: those whom God had chosen in turn sought and found His righteousness (9:30, 10:4). The rest were lost. So far only the elect are saved. "Grace no longer of works" refers to no human effort, but God's election (Rom. 3:21-31, 31:4-11, 9::11, Gal. 2:16,21 3:11, 12,13, Titus 3:5). Now be patient. Now today, many Jews and now Gentiles are coming to Christ, they too are part of the elect. And in the future more will come and they too will be of the Elect.
So what is all the fuss about Israel? Those who reject Christ don't make it. Are is there another way for them to make it? Do you see that the Physical Jew does not make it, only the Spiritual one does. The elect.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


Trav, why all the fuss over Israel when in fact the whole of the saved one's are the elect?
---MarkV. on 2/9/10

Why does matter is usual.
1. We uphold a people as elect that has not shown one elect sign in 2000+ years. Who are they? Why would a Christian support Anti-Christ? Churches/you think they are elect.
2. I stand aside,pointing for Bereans.
3.Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
4.Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
---Trav on 2/9/10


Trav, now my question is, why all the fuss over Israel when in fact the whole of the saved one's are the elect? We should know that already, that only the elect will be saved, no matter from where they come. Why is it important to divide the people my tribe when in the end it will only be the elect? That is why I had not understood what you were saying. I kept thinking, what is he talking about? What people?
The elect are all the same, they are people who will one day come to Christ by faith. Now whether Jew or Gentile.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


Trav, I read your last statement where you say,
"You, may be revering paying homage to a country/people that have shown only animosity to christ. Notably for 2000 years"

Even the elect of Israel who have not come to Christ yet,..---MarkV. on 2/7/10

Mark one thing I notice at the last of your post is the "elect" of Israel.
I believe scripture can/will show that the "elect" is not, the church tagged imposters jews in the country named Israel. They don't collectively even claim to be this people.
The "elect" are the ones of either house of Heb8:8, that accept the truth of YAHSHUA.
The primary mark is the simpliest. Heb 8:10.
70+ marks witness to he who asks and look.
---Trav on 2/8/10


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I am interested in the archaeological and historical aspects of the land.
How?
---Rod4Him on 2/7/10

We share a common interest. Mine started when finding the name mentioned 2,318 times. The other affectionate names are over 137 titles, that probably push the mention as a whole over three thousand. They even use your name..."Rod" of inheritance. Well, round a bout anyway...Ps 74:2, Jer 51:19.

How?
they have not recognized our LORD for 2000 years. Why? Are they Esau's boys? Or others? Some may be blind Judeans.
Gen 27:40 by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother,it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
---Trav on 2/8/10


I want to clarify my statement concerning my interest in Israel. It is the Land of Israel that most my interest resides. I am interested in the archaeological and historical aspects of the land.

Understanding archaeloloical elements and historical sites help to understand parts of the Bible and make it come more alive.

For example of a better understanding of legalism, during their Sabbat, they adjusted an elevator at a motel to stop at each floor, so they would not have to "push a button" on Sabbat.

Trav, //It completely matters, who is spreading false doctrine, unsupported by prophets. Your own family might be affected. You, yourself.//

How?
---Rod4Him on 2/7/10


Trav, I read your last statement where you say,
"You, may be revering paying homage to a country/people that have shown only animosity to christ. Notably for 2000 year"
My question is, are not all people alive who have not trusted Jesus, people showing animosity to Christ? Even the elect of Israel who have not come to Christ yet, show animosity to Christ. Until they are saved, they will continue doing that. No one knows who they all are until they receive Christ as their Savior. It is known by God but not by anyone.
---MarkV. on 2/7/10


People can tend to go to the Bible and find anything they want to support a preconceived opinion. ---Rod4Him on 2/6/10

Used to say this too, until it was shown, that anything scriptural needing a witness has two or more. True, like eloy below in his one blood scripture can take one scripture and make it seem conclusive.

In his scripture speaking of ethno's boundary's, and times appointed beforehand. It is speaking of Israels ethno's backward and forward.
Deut 32:8-9 is just one witness of many against his unsupported read. Deut8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel.
---Trav on 2/6/10


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tom2, this stuff is entertaining, but has little to do with living Godly in Christ Jesus. BTW, I have an intense interest in Israel, ---Rod4Him on 2/6/10

Another thing you imply above, is what does it matter?
It completely matters, who is spreading false doctrine, unsupported by prophets. Your own family might be affected. You, yourself.
Who, scripture is dealing should concern you completely if no less because of your stated interest in the misnamed country of Israel? But, where are the largest 11 parts of divorced Israel at that scripture speaks of? You, may be revering paying homage to a country/people that have shown only animosity to christ. Notably for 2000 years.
---Trav on 2/6/10


Trav, I am still trying to figure out what you are saying. You said,
"We've been so dumbed down by the doctrines of the churches we will not believe a prophet or a scripture that doesn't fit a modern non witnessed by prophet doctrine."
What do you mean by those statements? What doctrines of the Churches? Compared to what prophetic doctrine? They are many spoken to certain Israelites.
You of all people speak more about Israel and until now I have no clue what it is you are saying. are you saying all 12 will be saved. Every individual? only a few? None? Or are you saying we will all become Israelites or what? Jews? Gentiles?
---MarkV. on 2/6/10


tom2, this stuff is entertaining, but has little to do with living Godly in Christ Jesus. I say this to help keep our focus where it ought to be, on Christ.

Again, what verses are you referring to? Try not to read other people's theories, but what do you read and where do you read it in the Bible to support your view?

People can tend to go to the Bible and find anything they want to support a preconceived opinion. It's challenging to read the Bible with an open mind and let it take you where it goes.

BTW, I have an intense interest in Israel, having been there twice, and I intend on studying there in the future. I'd also like to start leading tours of the Land of Israel.
---Rod4Him on 2/6/10


It depends which scripture you are talking about, for there is Jacob who's name was changed to Israel and he had 12 sons who are the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel, of which they have broken their covenant with God and sinned against him, and so he took his kingdom away from them and has given it to others to keep his covenant. Only the obedient or covenant keeper is the true Israel of God, all else are dross for the everlasting fire being both the national Jew and the nonJew: for when you take Jesus' yoke upon you you become consecrated into his life, the true Israel of God: but when you break his covenant in disobeying his commandments then you have become alien up to him and a strange vine and the unholy offspring prepared for the fire.
---Eloy on 2/6/10


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Steven, Good Jew, Bad Jew: There are the blessed Jews: "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If all you continue in my word, you all are my disciples indeed." And there are the condemned Jews: "Jesus said to those Jews which sought to kill him, "I know you all are Abraham's offspring, but you all seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you: this did not Abraham. All you are from the father who's devil, and the desires of your father you all will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stands not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. He that is of God hears God's words: you all therefore hear not, because you all are not of God."
---Eloy on 2/6/10


Steven, God is not a prejudicial racist. Out of One Blood Jesus has created All nations, One Blood, again, Out of One Blood All Nations are made, again, One Blood every single person comes from One Blood: this means Adam's blood, the first man, his blood spreads from the very first seed all across the entire world, even up to Christ. Basically, there are only 2 races in this world today, namely, the obedient which is the true Israelite, and the disobedient which is the true NonIsraelite: the blessed, and the damned.
---Eloy on 2/6/10


rod4,just what country will God supernaturally protect from the invading northern army mentioned in revelation?a furture event that has yet to happen,some scholars believe it was the 1967 war,and guess who that involved?
---tom2 on 2/5/10


MarkE. For example of different ways of interpreting, using the verse you quoted. It says, "After many days you will be summoned." So here "many days" must mean over 2,500 years.

And, "restored from the sword" doesn't mean sword but maybe weapons instead of swords.

And "they [Israel] are living securely, all of them." Israel is not living securely, and certainly not all of them.

These are just examples of how people can tend to interpret and see what they want to see.
---Rod4Him on 2/5/10


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MarkE, for what it is worth, my wife accuses me of reading the prophets more than anyone she knows. I do read all the Bible.

Having said that, one has to decide what is literal and what is metaphorical. What should be applied to Israel while they were in captivity, and what is a prophecy concerning the coming of Jesus.

I understand the dispensational view, however, I read the scriptures and then systems of belief. Not the other way around.

Anyway, whatever view one takes on Israel being called a nation now doesn't prove that what is happening now in the land is a direct fulfilment of scripture. No one knows that.
---Rod4Him on 2/5/10


Rod:

You really need to read the prophets.

Eze 38: 8 "After many days you will be summoned, in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste, but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/5/10


Moderator - You are WRONG! The Israel of the Middle East IS the real Israel spoken of in Scripture. ---Leslie on 2/1/10

Ha. Well, there are more people calling themselves jews in America than in Israel. For the 101th time....Israel of scripture is not entirely composed of people calling themselves Jews. Or a Country as mentioned by someone below. Israel, was composed of 12 nations/13 sons. Collectively she was a wife to GOD, separated Divorced and to be remarried. Heb 8:8 Underlines.
We've been so dumbed down by the doctrines of the churches we will not believe a prophet or a scripture that doesn't fit a modern non witnessed by prophet doctrine. This was never prophesied otherwise, though either. A wide way.
---Trav on 2/5/10


zech 12 vs 10,"And I will pour on the house of David and on the "inhabitants of Jerusalem" the Spirit of grace and supplication,then they will look on Me whom they pierced.Yes they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son,and grieve for him as one grieves for a firstborn."...Israel is not yet restored to the Davidic covenant,but God is drawing them back to the land...because this is the centre-stage for "the time of Jacobs sorrow"at the end of the church age we are now in.
---richard on 2/5/10


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The very location of Israel profoundly affected what was to happen to her over the centuries, for she sat uncomfortably in the middle of the "Fertile Crescent" [including Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and Armenia, or to use modern names: Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, and Iran. This area was the very matrix of humankind, a veritable cradle for civilization. Note: In some texts [Bible] Israel is referred to all believers in all times regardless of ethnic identity.
---catherine on 2/5/10


tom2, do you have any scripture that YHWH will bring Israel back to the land even though Israel rejects Him?
---Rod4Him on 2/4/10


"Physically YES
Spiritually NO"
---francis on 2/4/10

We have a wonderfully correct answer from Francis
---m on 2/4/10


Physically YES
Spiritually NO
---francis on 2/4/10


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tom2, and where in Revelation does it say that Israel will form in 1948? hmm...lost tribes, and which tribes are these and where are they in Israel today?

Some may believe that Israel going back to the land is a fulfillment, but what is to prevent Israel from getting kicked out and going back another day. How does one "know" that this is the "fulfillment?" Only one half of one percent of Jews in Israel believe in Christ. That doesn't sound like a fulfillment. There are more Arab Christians in Israel than Jewish Christians. Interesting...
---Rod4Him on 2/4/10


well according to revelation,it has to be. The future events starting in 1948 with the formation of Israel,and the continuing influx of the lost tribes are surely a full fillment of prophecy,and the future saving of Israel by God super naturally against the enemies who will attack them eventually ending in Armagedon are all signs yet to be full filled
---tom2 on 2/4/10


Moderator--- could you please elaborate on your answer to this question where you said no it is not.
---mima on 2/3/10


God's Israel will be saved, Christ bought them,

Rev5:9b for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10a And hast made us unto our God kings and priests:
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---steven-rem7000 on 2/2/10


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"Israel the people" is what God spoke to in scripture (God's promises were to "Israel PEOPLE", the NATION/group of Israelite people).

There is also the LAND that was "BEYOND THE JORDAN" that was given to "THE NATION/people", but the two should not be confused, God does not love LAND, He loves PEOPLE.
---more_excellent_way on 2/2/10


"Is the Israel of the Middle East the real Israel spoken of in Scripture?"
As a people, no. As a location, partially.
It was written concerning the overthrow of Jerusalem, which occurred, according to historical reports, in 70 AD "There shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this 'people' (true israelites). And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and 'shall be led away captive into "all" nations': and Jerusalem shall be trodden down 'of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled'. Luke 21:23,24
That time will not be fulfilled until the day that Jesus returns.
---josef on 2/2/10


You guys are too much! You'd argue over whether or not the official color of the book is... black. LOL
---BruceB on 2/1/10


there is only one israel,

To claim Israel is the Scriptural Israel, one has to ask, how can God bring Israel back to the land

the Israel of today is only a fraction of the size of the Biblical Israel which contained part of Iraq and northern Africa.

To put God in a box and question his ability of a minute miracle of restoring the nation of israel, is very similar to what the chidren of israel believed about God sending hornets to clear the people out of the promise land
---michael_e on 2/1/10


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St. Paul already answered this question: They are not all Israel who are of Israel.

He also makes it plain that the Jews of his day are spiritually the children of Hagar, not of Sarah. Read Galatians.
---Cluny on 2/1/10


Moderator is right. However, one might say that Israel today is Israel of Scripture, although just a beginning or fraction of Scriptural Israel.

To claim Israel is the Scriptural Israel, one has to ask, how can God bring Israel back to the land when there are more Arab Christians in the land than Jewish Christians?

Ok, dispensationalists may say it doesn't matter cause God is bringing Israel back regardless. Maybe God is, maybe He isn't, but I doubt that he is.
---Rod4Him on 2/1/10


Leslie, the Israel of today is only a fraction of the size of the Biblical Israel which contained part of Iraq and northern Africa.
---Moderator on 2/1/10


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