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Modern Judaizers Follow Law

Could those who teach a need to follow Old Testament ceremonial and dietary laws be considered modern "Judaizers"?

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 ---Donna66 on 2/4/10
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Paul9594 // but when the fullness of the time came, :God sent forth his :Son, born of woman, born under law,( again the Law of the World not His Law!) 5 that
he might redeem those under law.

The Neo Judaizers will go to any extreme to justify their false doctrinal beliefs. There has not been nor will there ever be a redemption from the law of the world. The law in Galatians refers to the OT law, not the secular law of the world.

Why don't you just admit that your doctrinal views are totally contrary to the Scripture and what was taught by the saints of His church for over 2 milleniums?
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


---Rod4Him

The is a difference between what we call Law of God and Law of Moses

Examples,
Ten commandments spoken directly By God, and writen directly by God
Law of Moses spoken directly by Moses, and writen by Moses
See Deuteronomy CPT 4, and malachi 4

Also see this verse
Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices

23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you

God spoke the Ten commandments.
Moses spoke about sacrifing
---francis on 2/9/10


Sorry, it it is in context. he is taling about the ten commandments. We can be partial in loving our neighbours
---Francis on 2/8/10

NO, NO, NO. You are out of context.

The context is this:

James 2:1 "My brethren, do not hold your FAITH in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism".

then this applies:

James 2:9 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors"

so therefore:

James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10


You need to grow in the fullness of His grace by understanding Law and its roles.
---Paul9594 on 2/8/10

You confirm my opinion, that obedience to the Law is paramount to you and is likely REQUIRED for my salvation.

I tell you you need to know God's love, and you tell me I need to know God's Law.

Paul, we are not under the OT law. James, Paul, and Peter all tell us that we are under a different law, the law of grace.

Ever wonder why God dedicated two books (Galatians, Hebrews) to telling us that the deeds of the Law and the OT covenant are over? Because He knew that the resistance to this truth would be ruthless and fierce.

How can you simply keep ignoring this?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10


Great question Sister Donna and I like your answer best.
I guess whether they are Judaizers or not the law cannot free you or offer salvation since none of us can keep the law.
With the law and condemnation is all or nothing.
No one made it and therefore no one was justified by the law.
---larry on 2/8/10




francis, that's an interesting interpretation distinquishing between the 10 commandments and "Moses" commandments.

However, with a quick search, "to see if these things are so," I find that, "The LORD said to Moses" 138 times in the Torah. The same phrasology as when the 10 commandments were given.

And if your interpretation is right, where does the New Testament confirm your theory?

Interesting thought though. It just doesn't hold up. I wondered why I had never heard of that before.
---Rod4Him on 2/8/10


Trav, I repeat this as you seem to have missed it!

Trav, you say fossils (remnants of dead creatures) were upon the earth in creation week?????

In Genesis 1:1 'erets' obviously means the globe. Otherwise when was it made? The Biblical Hebrew dictionary 'erets': depending upon context means the whole world, earth, ground, soil, country, region, territory.' In Genesis 6-8, 'erets' is used 46 times, meaning the globe.

'under the whole heavens' (Genesis 7:19) is used 6 times elsewhere always meaning universal, never local-Deut. 2:25, 4:19, Daniel 9:12,Job 28:24, 37:3, 41:11-'"Whatever is under the whole heavens is mine" said the Lord."' Are you saying God only owns part of the heavens?
---Warwick on 2/6/10
---Warwick on 2/8/10


Trav, why take any birds? They can fly away. Not from a global flood.

God brought the flood upon all flesh, "Upon the face of all the earth" Genesis 7:3, 8:9

As to waters flowing away are you proposing this 450,000 sq. mile local area was totally encircled by mountains, of exactly equal height? No valleys? God says all the high mountains under the entire heavens (the whole globe) were covered to a height of 8 metres Genesis 7:19. What stopped the water running quickly over the tops of the mountains, exposing them? Remember Gods word says the mountain tops didn't appear until the first day of the tenth month-Genesis 8:5.

Scripture makes sense if the flood was global but no sense if it was local.
---Warwick on 2/8/10


Trav, again: if the flood was local why was an ark needed at all? Noah and co. could have walked away. Just as Jesus parents did, heading to Egypt to avoid the coming slaughter of innocents!

You wrote "to kill the line" Gods says He was going to destroy "all flesh, every living thing (man and land animals) under the entire heavens." "Under the entire heavens " always refers to the whole planet, as I have shown, on a few occasions.

The ark was plenty large enough for the job. See 'The Creation Answers Book' 2006 p.177.

Why have animals on the ark? As future breeding stock. Not needed if the flood was local as animals from surrounding areas would quickly fill any void.
---Warwick on 2/8/10


Mark_Eaton:

Have the precepts of men blinded u from seeing, the true subject of this Scripture?

Galatians 4:3-7
3 So we also, when we were babes, were in
bondage under the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD (not in bondage to His Law) : 4 but when the fullness of the time came, :God sent forth his :Son, born of woman, born under law,( again the Law of the World not His Law!) 5 that
he might redeem those under law

8 indeed not knowing God (Christ) you were in bondage to
them that by nature are no gods:

Are you still in bondage to other gods/ rudiments of this world?

You need to grow in the fullness of His grace by understanding Law and its roles.
---Paul9594 on 2/8/10




francis //keeping the sabbath holy is part of the ten commandments

And keeping the Jewish Passover is also a command directly from the mouth of God.Why do you limited obedience to God's law just to the 10 commandments?

According to James 2:10 if you are guilty of breaking any law (and there is no qualifier given in the Bible as to type), you are held guilty of breaking them all.

Don't you wish you could live by grace thru faith instead of by the law? But in doing that you would not be able to boast how much more righteous you are than others. And such is the plight of the Judaizers who truly believe Jesus is not sufficient for our walk and salvation.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


Your reference is out of context. James is talking about showing paritality, he is not talking about following the Law.


Sorry, it it is in context. he is taling about the ten commandments. We can be partial in loving our neighbours

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

in the context of THE LAW. This verses speak about the ten commandments as whole law.

Do not kill, do not commit adultery are two of the ten commandments
---Francis on 2/8/10


Donna66 on 2/8/10 "Francis--God did not add the ten commandments because men broke the ten commandments

Perhaps I'm not interpreting your post correctly. But my understanding is that this is precisely why He gave the ten commandments."

You are not missunderstanding my post.

the Law of God Ten commandments, have always existed.
Because man broke the Law of God ( ten commandments) God then added the laws of sacrifices. ( genesis 3:15)

Laws of sacrifices ( sin and death) showed just how bad sin was ( breaking Gods law), and showed man how Jesus would die for thier sins.

If man did not sin, jesus would not need to die. It was after Adam sinned that the lamb was first slain.
---francis on 2/8/10


Francis--God did not add the ten commandments because men broke the ten commandments

Perhaps I'm not interpreting your post correctly. But my understanding is that this is precisely why He gave the ten commandments.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made...

Rom 7:8-9 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Men had been sinning since Adam. But without a definition of "sin" how could they ever know it?
---Donna66 on 2/8/10


the WHOLE LAW here is ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS
---francis on 2/8/10

Your reference is out of context. James is talking about showing paritality, he is not talking about following the Law.

James 2:9 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors"

You should have continued in the passage until this:

James 2:12-13 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy, mercy triumphs over judgment"

We are under the law of liberty.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/8/10


How many of the Ten commandments are christians commanded to Obey/ keep?

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

the WHOLE LAW here is ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS
---francis on 2/8/10


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LEE WRITES: Ga 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, UNTIL the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary

This is a good place to show that there are two doiferent laws spoken of here:

the LAW referred to here is the law of SIN and Death: the law of sacrifices, it was ADDED because men broke the ten commandments

God did not add the ten commandments because men broke the ten commandments.

Think about it. After jesus death, we are commanded not to commit adultery( ten commandments), but never commanded to make another animal sacrifice
(law of sin and death)

keeping the sabbath holy is part of the ten commandments
---francis on 2/8/10


Paul:

I would suggest you read the book of Hebrews and then rejoin the conversation.

For your post on Jesus obeying and not ending the law, read and understand this scripture passage:

Galatians 4:3-7 "So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father! Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/8/10


I keep hearing from the folks who promote keeping the Law that it is the 10 commandments that should be kept, but not the rest of the Torah. Is that correct?

If that is correct, on what basis is the rest of the Torah not kept?
---Rod4Him on 2/8/10


To Lee my statement about the end of the law is based on the following Scripture.
Romans 10:4," For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." There is restrictions on for who the law has come to an end the end is only for those who belief

The law continues for unsaved. Now Lee since I am firmly believe you are saved I have no choice but to announce you are free of the law in fact for you the law has ended.

The law correctly followed would establish righteousness for the follower, but since no one can follow the law is a wonderful relief to know that Jesus has made an end of the law for those who belief.
---mima on 2/8/10


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If the flood was local:

Why need of an ark at all? 450,000sq mile area. To kill the line.
Why a massive vessel to house 8 humans and local animals? Would take 34 for your theory.
Why have animals on the ark? Clean/Noahs pick.
Why birds-they can fly away? What birds. Two of Seven clean types?
Why were only locals judged worthy of destruction? Un-perfect in Generations..as opposed to Noah. Gen 6:9.
If the flood was local,waters rose above all high mountains, what stopped it flowing away? It did gradually flow away or it would still be flooded. Had to fall below top sometime.
---Warwick on 2/7/10

Answers next to yours.
---Trav on 2/8/10


Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death....in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10

Are you saying that the law of the spirit of life is the same as the law of Moses?
The Law of Moses is Judaism and the letter killeth. The Law of the Spirit is, walking after the Spirit, the law of liberty. Being free from sin and it's bondage by the Grace that come from God's Spirit that empowers you.
---exzucuh on 2/8/10


Lee1538, Why still the Law (10 Commandments)? Because, even though we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we also have to fight against our old flesh nature. we still have to "crucify the flesh" DAILY. The whole Sanctification bit is not automaticand instantaneous. Sanctification takes TIME. It is a Process. We are indeed to live according to ROMANS 6. And the 10 Commandments are our guide. Our old sinful nature will always BEND towards doing what is wrong against GOD and man. Love tells us "not to steal". Love tells us to "honour our father and our mother." Love tells us "not to commit adultery." Love tells us "not to bear false witness against our neighbour (gossip, slander and lie).
---Gordon on 2/8/10


Yes! Apostle Paul insisted that the only way to be saved is through the Blood of Jesus Christ. To become a new person in Christ is to be set free from the requirement of the Jewish law. [Acts 15:1-29.
---catherine on 2/8/10


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Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death....in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Lee1538

Amen and Amen. Walking according to the Spirit or Commandments as First John puts it is when we walk in obdience to GOD not living in sin which is trangression of the laws of GOD.

For the Christian, Jesus is all we really need as we have the inner discipline of His Spirit to guide us and do not need the externalism of the law. Lee1538

Do the Quakers have the correct answer since they teach that inner guidance not scripture is the true path?
---Samuel on 2/8/10


Simply because the Sabbath was given ONLY to the Jewish nation. And it was only the Jews who observed it.

Many theologians use the term Jewish Sabbath, it being the sign of the covenant God made ONLY with the Jews. Exodus 31:17.

Lee1538

True since Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Our Bible our salvation came from the Jews. The Christian church depends on Jewish scripture for truth. We are adopted into the coventent given to the Jews. Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
---Samuel on 2/8/10


//Mima, Lee1538, and ALL those who claim that Love ENDS the Law,

Ga 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, UNTIL the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

//When will you read Paul the apostle's lips? Was he not baptized in the Holy Spirit? What is Paul's teaching 30 yrs to 4yrs, INTO THE CHURCH AGE?

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death....in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


If the flood was local:

Why was there need of an ark at all?
Why such a massive vessel if only to house 8 humans and some local animals?
Why was there need to have animals on the ark, at all?
Why birds-they can fly away?
Why were only these locals judged worthy of destruction?
If the flood was localized why did Jesus liken it to the coming universal judgement of 'all' men-Matthew 24:37-39.
If 'all' doesn't mean 'all' who are these 'all' who are not all, whom Jesus says are to be judged?
If the flood was local and the waters rose above all the high mountains, what stopped it flowing away?'
---Warwick on 2/7/10


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The exclusive genealogies of Genesis 4:17-26, 5:1-31 show all preFlood people descended from Adam. Likewise the exclusive genealogies of Genesis 10:1-32 show all postFlood peoples came from Noah.

Genesis 6:13 "I am going to put an end to all people. 17 "I am going to destroy all life under the heavens.." Some claim only those in a local area were destroyed. If so why does God say all post flood peoples are descended from Noah?

Solid extraBiblical evidence that all people are descended from Noah and co. exists in the flood stories told by many cultures, such as in North and South America, South Sea Islands, Australia, Papua, New Guinea, Japan, China, India, Middle East, Europe, and Africa.
---Warwick on 2/7/10


Trav, you say fossils (remnants of dead creatures) were upon the earth in creation week?

In Genesis 1:1 'erets' obviously means the globe. Otherwise when was it made? The Biblical Hebrew dictionary 'erets': depending upon context means the whole world, earth, ground, soil, country, region, territory.' In Genesis 6-8, 'erets' is used 46 times, meaning the globe.

'under the whole heavens' (Genesis 7:19) is used 6 times elsewhere always meaning universal, never local-Deut. 2:25, 4:19, Daniel 9:12,Job 28:24, 37:3, 41:11-'"Whatever is under the whole heavens is mine" said the Lord."' Are you saying God only owns part of the heavens?
---Warwick on 2/6/10


Mima, Lee1538, and ALL those who claim that Love ENDS the Law,

When will you read Paul the apostle's lips?

Was he not baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Was he not called by Christ Himself to preach?

What is Paul's teaching 30 yrs to 4yrs, INTO THE CHURCH AGE?

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.

LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW, THEREFORE LOVE AFFIRMS THE LAW YOU WANT DESTROY.

How long will you contradict yourself?

Walk after the Law of righteouness of you may hear Matthew 7:20-23.
---Paul9594 on 2/6/10


Cluny:
U Posted:
Well, did Christ accomplish all the law or not?
If He did, then it's passes away.
If He did not, then we are still in our sins.
There is no third alternative.///

Where in Scripture does Chrsit say:

I came to fulfill the Law so you don't have to, it has passed away! Where?

This is read into this passage, by precepts, doctrines of men.

If christ meant, I fulfill Law so you don't have to, then, why did Christ get up and throw even the least commandment at the people saying:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these LEAST commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
---Paul9594 on 2/6/10


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Mima:

What is the fatal defect in this theory of the precepts of men? That Christ wiped out the Law!

Adequate proof is lacking in rabbinic literature that the Law would in fact be abrogated during/ after Christ!


Moreover, even if such a theory could be defended in rabbinic literature, there is
no clear evidence with Paul holding such theory, that Christ would wipe out the Law for the Christian much less for the Jew.

When will those who claim to be His people, stick to the evidence and substance of the faith? The Word of the Father and not teachings of men.
---Paul0504 on 2/6/10


Cluny, mima?

Would you teach?

I came to fulfill the Law, now you do not have to. Matthew 5:17

Then right after, you throw the least commandments at the people and say:

Mat 5:19 whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

First, you say no need to keep law, I will do it for you.

Then you say: break the least commandment and we will call you least in Heaven?

Would you contradict yourself in such a ridiculous manner? No?

Neither would, Christ being all perfect!

Are many saying we follow Christ?

Yet void Christ's teachings with the tradtion of men, as the Pharisees did?
---Paul9594 on 2/6/10


//You claim man only lived in one locality therefore able to be destroyed by a local flood.

If you had a tack to drive into a wall would you use a sledge hammer when a simple tack hammer would do the job?

It is much the same with Noah's flood which had the limited objective to destroy man who God had created.

Good sense simply states a regional flood would have sufficed for that purpose.

Again, your argument that 'all' means everything is without an reasonable or logical merit.

But if you chose to believe something that is incorrect and insignificant as this issue, then do so, as I rather doubt if anyone would care. You may even believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy if you wish.
---Lee1538 on 2/6/10


Trav, ...In your scenario the coming destruction of the world will be local!
---Warwick on 2/5/10

Well, this is my possum analogy. But, you can use it.
It is conclusive that dry "Erets" was brought forth from the deep. (Your fossils on Mtn tops).
It's conclusive that Erets depending on use 1,200 times mean, land,country, area. Conclusive they understood the area they lived in or heard about.
Its conclusive, Kosmos also was a known area, or unkown heavens. Disney World modern example.
It's conclusive, that Israel is Exclusive, and who scripture lineally deals with. It's this last that tangles your catholic doctrine. Honor what GOD loves...vision clears.
---Trav on 2/6/10


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To teach that it's necessary, in order to follow GOD, and to enter Heaven, that one must observe the 613+ Mosaic Laws (the Ceremonial Laws and Dietary Laws) is not Biblical and not the Will of GOD. Btw, Obedience to the "10 Commandments" is a totally different issue! Those who teach that Circumcision, Dietary Laws, etc. are requirements for Salvation are, indeed, Judaizers, and are, therefore, false teachers.
---Gordon on 2/6/10


The differences between the Two Covenants, the Old and the New, are the BLOOD SOURCE as requirement to obtain the remission of, the atonement for, and the forgiveness of sins. Under both Covenants are the people of GOD required to live according to the "10 Commandments". It's that NOW we do not have to make animal sacrifices on a regular basis, which only TEMPORARILY washed our sins away. Now, we have the One-Time shedding of the Lamb of GOD's Blood, that we plead before GOD at His Throne. The New Covenant has not one thing to do with annulling the Moral Laws of GOD. It does, however, void out the Mosaic Laws.
---Gordon on 2/6/10


Correct Lee, I do want to believe God's word over man's fables. Colossians 2:8 is relevant "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."

It eludes you that God also said He would "destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it."-Genesis 6:17. "Every living thing that moved on the earth perished....all creatures that swarm over the earth." 7:21

You claim man only lived in one locality therefore able to be destroyed by a local flood. You are therefore saying all animals only inhabited one local area! What kept them there? Birds too?
---Warwick on 2/6/10


Cluny: "FWIW, the seven-day week was something the Jews picked up in the Babylonian captivity."

I'm sure you college professors would believe that, but those of us who believe the God of the Bible take Him at His word:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Even the most ignorant professor knows that the Exodus (not to mention the Creation) predated the Babylonian captivity by hundreds of years.
---jerry6593 on 2/6/10


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\\And there is virtually no record to say that the Jewish Sabbath was observed or even heard of prior to the time of Moses. (Unless you want to believe the trash White wrote)
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10\\

FWIW, the seven-day week was something the Jews picked up in the Babylonian captivity.

Pre-Christian Greece and Rome had the MONTH, not the week, as the basic organization of days.

Market days came every EIGHT days (not seven). Among the Romans, the Calends (first), None (around the 9th in modern use), and Ides (usually but not always 15th by our use) were the significant days of the month.
---Cluny on 2/5/10


Gina, in referring to Jer. 31:33, also stated in Hebrews 8:10 You deliberately ignore the previous verses - Hebr. 8:9 & Jer. 31:32.

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,..."

And in doing so you maintain that the New covenant is simply a re-hash of the Old. Thus you place the church back under the old covenant law.

As such, you are a true slave child of Hagar as Christians are those who begin with the Spirit and are to continue with the Spirit. Gal. 3:3

For the Christian, Jesus is all we really need as we have the inner discipline of His Spirit to guide us and do not need the externalism of the law.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


We believe that the Ten Commandements are written in the heart of christians by the HOLY SPIRIT when we are born again.
---Samuel on 2/5/10

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord. I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" Hebrews 10:16 See also Heb 8:10

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.." Jeremiah 31:33

Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah, and it refers to the 10 commandments being written in our hearts. Old Testament words! and totally applicable!
---Gina7 on 2/5/10


Warwick//Peter is saying the old world was destroyed and "the present heavens and earth (mirroring Genesis ch.'s 6,7) is 'reserved....for destruction." In your scenario the coming destruction of the world will be local!

Local to the planet earth.

the PURPOSE God had for destroying man during Noah's time,was that they were wicked.

a global flood would not have been necessary for God to accomplish His purpose since man did NOT live in all parts of the globe.

It is much like ALL the world came to Joseph to buy food but the famine was localized in that area, not in China, North or South America, etc.

Again you fail to mix good sense with what you want to believe.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


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Larry //Why say Jewish Sabbath? Created by God in Genesis long before Abraham and Jewish nation started.

Simply because the Sabbath was given ONLY to the Jewish nation. And it was only the Jews who observed it.

Many theologians use the term Jewish Sabbath, it being the sign of the covenant God made ONLY with the Jews. Exodus 31:17.

And there is virtually no record to say that the Jewish Sabbath was observed or even heard of prior to the time of Moses. (Unless you want to believe the trash White wrote)
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


Warwick - I would rather not argue with you on the fact that the flood during Noah's day was regional, nor do I desire to argue with you the fact that not all the days of creation were a mere 24 hours in duration.

Like I posted before, I have few special education skills debating with those that are mentally challenged or in educating the blandly ignorant who would refuse to acknowledge good sense.

Sorry to sound unloving, but trying a more loving and reasonable way has not sufficed.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


"Why say Jewish Sabbath?Larry)

If one have study Holy Scriptures, the answer is quite clear. While God may have blessed the Seventh Day in Genesis, no command was issue to keep the day as "Holy" until Moses. That is why the word "Sabbath" can not be found in the book of Genesis nor do we have any example of anyone keeping the Sabbath until Exodus. Fathers prior to Egypt did not keep the Sabbath: Deut 5:2-3, Ezek 20:10-12, and Nehemiah 9:13-14.

And, Holy Scriptures is quite clear that the Sabbath was a sign to Israel (i.e., Jews)-Exodus 31:1617, and Deuteronomy 5:15.

Thus, one is correct to say "Jewish Sabbath". It was given to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/5/10


Trav, sometimes I think I am arguing with 'possums.'

2 Peter 3:5 Peter, (referring to Genesis 1) says "the earth" was created. Was this the whole planet or not?

Vs. 6 Peter uses 'kosmos' which means the planet, sometimes the earth and the heavens, the whole creation. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (kosmos)..", is this also some local area? Obvious isn't
it!

Peter is saying the old world was destroyed and "the present heavens and earth (mirroring Genesis ch.'s 6,7) is 'reserved....for destruction." In your scenario the coming destruction of the world will be local!
---Warwick on 2/5/10


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Why say Jewish Sabbath? Created by God in Genesis long before Abraham and Jewish nation started.
---Larry on 2/5/10


\\In Norway they kept the Sabbath till 1435: One-Hundred-Head Council] (St. Petersburg: Tipografiia Imperatorskoi Akademy Nauk, 1863), pp. 270-1. As cited by Zhigankov, Oleg. Ahead of their time? The 15th century Reformation in Russia. College and University Dialogue Journal).
---djconklin on 2/5/10\\

And did they "keep the sabbath" (whatever that might mean) instead of or in addition to Sunday?

The Stologlav Council was an Orthodox one, and Orthodox practice does NOT have Saturday as a Fast day, expect on Holy Saturday.

And services are properly held on ALL days.
---Cluny on 2/5/10


djconklin - I believe that some of the things you state about the history of the OT Sabbath are correct. In particular that some churches continued to practice the old Jewish Sabbath well into the 5th century.

A research article by J.N. Andrews 'History of the Sabbath & 1st Day of the Week' seems to confirm that.

However, it is questionable if this describes the majority of the church as clearly none of the Early church fathers taught Sabbath keeping.

I believe as does Bacchiocchi that the adherence to the old Jewish Sabbath declined starting around 135 A.D. and was influenced by anti-Jewish sentiments.

Christianity's separation from Judaism was something that was necessary if the church was to survive.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


Lee, words are defined by context-Genesis 41:54-57 'eres' is used to mean lands, country, Egypt, countries, world. Which is correct? All?
2 Peter 3: 3-7 says "scoffers" ---Warwick on 2/5/10

6By these waters also the WORLD OF THAT TIME was deluged and destroyed. (ERETS,LAND,COUNTRY). Scripture is the lineage prior too and following NOAH. Noah was perfect in his Generations...unadulterated.

War-wick, defending would argue with a possum. He must. He preached otherwise, it's obvious. If wrong, he has been wrong for years. His doctrine must have Noah as a second Adam, from which all men came,to work. I don't say vindictively, but is a mark in itself. In war with truth, through ignorance.

---Trav on 2/5/10


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And what can we say about Salaminius Hermias Sozomen?

There are many faults and shortcomings in his work. Of many of these he himself was conscious, but it was not in his power to correct them. Frequently it was hard for him to know the truth because of the mass of divergent evidence with which he had to deal, frequently there was not enough evidence, but in every case he aimed at expressing the truth and at making his work serve some useful purpose in the defence or elucidation of Christian ideas. = Wikipedia

Perhaps his outlook was basically from his perspective in the Palestine area.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


//Check out Salaminius Hermias Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Chapter XIX and Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chapter 22 at the ntslibrary website--this info has been posted before.

None of those sources truly represent the majority of the church during the first 3 centuries. And to say the least, are totally contrary to what the early church fathers wrote concerning the Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


Name SDA historians that hold the Sabbath ceased to be observed by Gentile Christians.

More recent SDA, such as Samuel Bacchiocchi, have abandoned the "papal" 4th century theory and set "the change" AD 135 in Rome.

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, and the Didache demonstrate that the corporate worship of Christians on the first day of the week was instituted by the Apostles themselves.

Interestingly as well, St. Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho" records a conversation with a Jew around the year AD 135. In this conversation Trypho states that a primary issue that Jews had with Christians is that they do not, and never have, kept the Sabbath of the Mosaic Law.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


Samuel //We believe that the Ten Commandements are written in the heart of christians by the HOLY SPIRIT when we are born again.

Howbeit, the keeping of the Sabbath is not in the testimony of the saints of His church.

Frankly, if the keeping of the Jewish Sabbath was of any importance at all, we would expect to see something of it as a command in the New Testament or at least in the writings of the early church, but alas, we do NOT.

To believe that the Sabbath commandment was written on the hearts of Christians is to declare that Christians who do not observe the Jewish Sabbath are in open disobedience to the Spirit of God. I don't think we can make that kind of judgment.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


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I am a Seventh day Adventist. We teach we are under the New Covenant, that people are saved by Grace alone. Sola Grace. Through faith alone and Scripture is the final authority. Sola Scriptora. Those who say we are teaching righteoness by works and we are teaching the old covenant are wrong.

The law does not bring righteouness as stated but Paul says it is establihed romans 3:31. We believe that the Ten Commandements are written in the heart of christians by the HOLY SPIRIT when we are born again. JESUS said the Sabbath was made for man. I will take HIS word as my final authority and not those who say it was made for Jews only.

If you wish to say I and my church are wrong please do so in a Christian manner using truth.
---Samuel on 2/5/10


Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


Mat 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

read Mat 5:19


Well, did Christ accomplish all the law or not? If He did, then it's passes away.
If He did not, then we are still in our sins. There is no third alternative. Cluny

Yes there is a third that you did not fully quote the passage. When did fulfill and abolish become synonyms. JESUS used them as antonyms.
---Samuel on 2/5/10


Jesus' issue with the Pharisees was not that they kept the Law, but that they were adding their own requirements that are not in the Law of Moses. There is Ananias who laid hands on Paul, that Paul might receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17). Paul says Ananias was "a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there," in Acts 22:12. But Paul says, "Not even those who are circumcised keep the law," in Galatians 6:13. So, ones saying to keep the Sabbath may not be doing it right. *How* does God want us to keep it, if we keep it? I suppose this would include *in our hearts* not thinking about work we want to do during the week.
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/5/10


>According to church historians, even some that are SDA, believe the Gentile church did NOT observe the Jewish sabbath by the end of the 1st century.

Name these SDA historians.

Check out Salaminius Hermias Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Chapter XIX and Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chapter 22 at the ntslibrary website--this info has been posted before.

The reference to India can be found at Wiki under Francis Xavier.

In Norway they kept the Sabbath till 1435: One-Hundred-Head Council] (St. Petersburg: Tipografiia Imperatorskoi Akademy Nauk, 1863), pp. 270-1. As cited by Zhigankov, Oleg. Ahead of their time? The 15th century Reformation in Russia. College and University Dialogue Journal).
---djconklin on 2/5/10


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\\Christ said:
Matthew 5:17-20:

Heaven and earth WILL pass away....

(yet) ...one jot one title SHALL in NO WISE PASS AWAY from the Law until all is accomplished.\\

Well, did Christ accomplish all the law or not?

If He did, then it's passes away.

If He did not, then we are still in our sins.

There is no third alternative.
---Cluny on 2/5/10


To---Paul9594 Christians are credited with the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ upon receiving salvation. Futhermore Jesus Christ righteousness consists of the things that Jesus accomplished or completed. Having said that it is easily seen that Christians obligation to keep the law was wiped out by Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore to insist on Christians keeping the law is to openly deny "Romans 10:4,-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth," all modern-day lawkeepers are attempting to establish their own (fleshly) righteousness.
---mima on 2/5/10


djconklin //Most Christian around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath as late as the 5th century. In India the Christians were keeping the Sabbath so till the early 1540's.

According to church historians, even some that are SDA, believe the Gentile church did NOT observe the Jewish sabbath by the end of the 1st century.

So your statement is without any supporting documentation.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


"Are you following the traditions of an apostate church or of the Apostles?" (Paul9538)

If one is a SDA or one will still adhere to the Old Testament dietary restrictions, Jewish Sabbath, etc, one is certainty following the traditions of the apostate church. However, the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the early God-Bearing Fathers, especially the Apostolic Fathers, did not teach Sabbath keeping or Levitical dietary laws. This IS the Tradition of the Holy Apostles.

The early Apostolic Church did not adhere to the above. Perhaps one need to read Romans 14. I find that those who are SDA or those who still believe we are in the Old Covenant have not read this chapter in Romans

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/4/10


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Is there anything new under the sun?


Modern day Pharisees keep their traditions that void the Word of God.

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Col 2:8 TAKE HEED lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and VAIN deceit, AFTER the TRADITION of men, AFTER the rudiments of the world, AND NOT NOT NOT AFTER Christ:


Are you following the traditions of an apostate church or of the Apostles?
---Paul9594 on 2/4/10


Most Christian around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath as late as the 5th century. In India the Christians were keeping the Sabbath so till the early 1540's.
---djconklin on 2/4/10


//Francis: "THIS IS MY CHALLENGE: FINE(sic)ONE VERSE IN THE NT that SAYS DONOT KEEP SABBATH or KEEP FIRST DAY."

Exodus 34:18 You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Exodus 34:22 You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the firstfruits of wheat harvest, ad the Feast of Ingatherings at the years end.

Paul9594 will glady say we must observe these Feasts since they are directly FROM THE VERY MOUTH OF GOD. But where in the Bible does it say we should no longer keep these Feasts?

It is the same with the OT Sabbath, there is nothing in the New Testament that commands its observance.

Only the slave children of Hagar need observe these commands given only to the Jewish people, but not to the church.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


Cluny:

Christ either fulfilled ALL the Law, and hence it has all passed away, or He has fulfilled NONE of it.///

Christ never said, I fullfill the Law so you don't have to.

Christ said:
Matthew 5:17-20:

Heaven and earth WILL pass away....

(yet) ...one jot one title SHALL in NO WISE PASS AWAY from the Law until all is accomplished.

and to be more emphatic, Christ throw even the least commnadments in front of the people, and said:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven:


When will His people read His lips and not commentaries?
---Paul9594 on 2/4/10


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James 2:10 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If our Adventists friends were to read the Old Testament laws - there are around 600+ of them, they would find that they are not obedient to most of them.

For instance, to teach a Christian today should keep the OT Sabbath but not the Passover, is to dismember God's law. The same lawgiver who gave the Sabbath also gave other commands.

However, in idolizing the 10 commandments they promote a soteriology of faith + works. Jesus alone to them is not sufficient for salvation as they maintain one must reach some level of perfection prior to our death.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


Cluny brings up a very good point, and I thank him for making it.

The NT doesn't make a distinction between moral, civil, religious, or dietary laws. I'll have to give this some more thought.

I've tried to distinquish the difference, and it really can't be done. Interesting...
---Rod4Him on 2/4/10


In quoting Romans 14 in regarding the Sabbath, Adventists will simply say this applies to the observance of other holy days not the ten commandment Sabbath.

Their problem is that they maintain the Bible does not say what it says, that it has to be interpreted to fit their doctrinal beliefs. Other non-orthodox denominations as well as cults, do the same.

But that is the reason, one should view early church history to determine what the successors of the Apostles taught and how these verses were interpreted.

And it is very clear, they did NOT teach Sabbath keeping or Levitical dietary laws, even from studies done by Adventist scholars.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


Romans 10:4,"4-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Should ring in the ears of every law keeping Christian!!! You do not have to be a rocket scientist to understand this statement and there it is no other interpretation than what is clearly stated.

---Cluny is correct,"Christ either fulfilled ALL the Law, and hence it has all passed away, or He has fulfilled NONE of it."
---mima on 2/4/10


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Jesus spoke condemnation to legalists and noted that even they are unable to keep the law. We are saved by grace through faith..period.
---jody on 2/4/10


The last blog on this topic ended with a challenge from Francis: "THIS IS MY CHALLENGE: FINE(sic)ONE VERSE IN THE NT that SAYS DONOT KEEP SABBATH or KEEP FIRST DAY."

Here is what the NT says:
Rom 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord, and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks, and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

You may deny it, but the NT, as quoted often before, plainly states that Gentile Christians were exempt from many Jewish laws.
---Donna66 on 2/4/10


Actually, NOWHERE does the Bible make a distinction between "moral," "ceremonial," "dietary," "civil," "penal", or other laws.

It simply speaks of ONE law--The Law, an integral whole.

Christ either fulfilled ALL the Law, and hence it has all passed away, or He has fulfilled NONE of it.
---Cluny on 2/4/10


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