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Salvation For Sabbath Keeping

Why is Sabbath keeping such a contentious topic around here? If some rest on Saturdays and others don't, what's it to anyone else? I keep Sabbath, but if you don't, I don't have an issue with it, nor am I willing to judge your salvation.

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The Hebrew word "Shabath" literally means "Rest". It is found first in Genesis 2:2, and also in Exodus 5:5 and Exodus 23:12. But the word "Seventh" in Hebrew is "Sheba", and not "Shabath", also found in Genesis 2:2, And "Seventh Day" is "Sheba Yowm" in Hebrew, but "Rest" is "Shabath", all found in Genesis 2:2. It means to rest or cease from labor. And it is improper to use "Sheba Yowm"-"Seventh Day" and "Shabath"-"Rest" interchangeably, because Seventh Day is just that, the seventh day, but Rest happens every day and not just on the seventh day.
---Eloy on 2/9/10


Samuel:

Spending the Sabbath with God and in prayer is fine, but that is tradition - I don't think you will find any place in the Bible where it says that's what the Sabbath is for. It is God's gift to man (so we have time to rest, rather than working ourselves to death), not man's gift to God.

Collosians 2:16-17:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"
"Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ"

This would apply to eating meat, keeping a Saturday (or Sunday) Sabbath, etc. - contentious issues where people choke on gnats, letting camels go right on by.
---StrongAxe on 2/9/10


Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did], by the which we draw nigh unto God
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
---MIchael on 2/9/10


The Ten Commandments are placed on Tables of Stone makeing them different then all the other commandments. By the way one of the 613 others is for men not to sleep with men. That one does not seem to be done away with. John Wesley had this discussion about the purpose of the Ten and how they are different and still in force. Way of the Master uses the Ten in street witnessing. Many Christians are trying to get them displayed in public buildings. There is even a Ten Commandment remeberance day.

Do you think you should tell these people they are wrong. Sabbath is not a burden. I love spending time with GOD and in Prayer and Bible study. Why should I consider it burdensome to spend a day with GOD who I want to spend all eternity with?
---Samuel on 2/9/10


Francis //Hebrews talk about the removal of the Old covenant sanctuary, but insist on the Law of God being placed in the heart of his people.

And what law of God is being placed in the heart of His people?

While you maintain the New Covenant is simply a re-hash of the Old Covenant given only to the Jewish nation - the law given as a temporary measure until one could be justified by faith in Christ - scripture attests that the New Covenant is 'not like the covenant' given at Mt. Sinai.

Hebrews 8:8b-9 I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,NOT LIKE the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10




Francis //The is a difference between what we call Law of God and Law of Moses.

We need to use the Bible definition, not some definition that would fit what some want to believe.

The entire Mosaic legislation including the 10 commandments is the law of Moses.(see Unger's Bible Dictionary)

1 Kings 2:3 And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:

See also 2 Kings 23:25 & Ezra 3:2.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


Francis - Is there a contrast between the Law of God and the law of Moses or are they one and the same?

They are one and the same as scripture makes no distinction.

And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness. Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days, and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner. Neh. 8:17-18

Is the law of God a ceremonial group of laws or is it simply the moral attributes of God.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


You just contradicted yourself on one of your comments.
---Gordon on 2/9/10

There is no contradiction Gordon.

If you believe the books of Galatians and Hebrews, you understand that the covenant governing the OT was over when Jesus initiated the new covenant fortold by Jeremiah. This new covenant obsoleted the old covenant established by God with the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai
in Exod 19:5.

We are no longer under the same laws and commandments as the OT. We are now under a better covenant, with better promises.

Obedience now means not just a list of rules, but a continuous crucifying of ourselves to God. One day a week is not what is asked for, EVERY day of the week is what God now wants.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10


//Question: WHEN DOES THE NEW COVENANT END>

At the return of Christ when we need no longer walk by faith as we will see Jesus face to face.

Mt 25:36f speaks of a judgment by Christ on those who welcomed the stranger, clothed the naked, fed the hungry, visited the sick and those in prison as doing the will of God. "if you have done it unto the least of mine, you have done it unto me.

But we can see the law promoting legalist telling Christ that such are not worthy of eternal life since they did not observe the Jewish Sabbath and ate whatever foods they desired.

Now you know why Christ commanded His followers to love one another for therein is the fulfillment of the law - Romans 13:10.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


Senshenti //this inner discipline of the Spirit you advocate is no more than subjective christianized Greek Platonic/Socratic philosophy. It's subjective in that it enables the argument that what's right for you may not be right for me.

The Christian life is a relationship with Christ, it is NOT some sort of Greek philosophical or ethical religious system as you would maintain.

And in having that inner discipline of the Holy Spirit (those who do NOT have the indwelling of His Spirit do not belong to Him -Romans 8:9), the law is established.

In having the internal discipline of the Spirit, 'the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh (in human effort) but after the Spirit' (Romans 8:4).
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10




Lee1538

Hebrews talk about the removal of the Old covenant sanctuary, but insist on the Law of God being placed in the heart of his people.

Question: WHEN DOES THE NEW COVENANT END>

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
---francis on 2/9/10


Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?

and then Paul goes on to compare those that wish to be under the covenant of law versus the covenant of grace as being of Mt. Sinai and of the promise given to Abraham respectively.

Those that adhere to the olde 10 commandment law given at Mt. Sinai are the slave children of Hagar while those born according to the promise are free.

Those born according the promise are true children of God that strive to do all that the Father would have them to do and really do not need the externalism of the law as they are to be led by the Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


Mark Eaton, You just contradicted yourself on one of your comments. YES, the sabbath issue is indeed about obedience. And, this Sabbath Commandment probably exposes our willingness to obey or not obey GOD by it's very nature. You say that it's about "obedience", but, then you say the sabbath is an "option". It is not an option. It is a COMMANDMENT. A Commandment as in, "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY..." And, GOD tells us in EXODUS 20:8 which Day is that Sabbath Day which we're to set apart from the rest of the week days as Holy. And, it is the 7th Day.
---Gordon on 2/9/10


\\So you admit that the Old Covenant is essentially the Ten Commandments.\\

Actually, in the Old Covenant, there are 613 commandments.
---Cluny on 2/9/10


Amen to this "blog"! You know, I recently checked this site out again after a year or so of being away...and what did I find? Of course, more debating about this particular topic.

That should raise flags for people...in all of Christendom I think there is scarcely a more contentious topic than the Sabbath.
---ToddG on 2/9/10


Mark Eaton: Great response! You quoted the scripture that I usually use and I have noticed that the Sabbath keepers seem to just ignore it. They also ignore scriptures regarding grace and love. I do appreciate how you so sincerely posted your blog in a loving way. Thank you. Well put.
---jody on 2/9/10


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Jerry //Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

So you admit that the Old Covenant is essentially the Ten Commandments.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

When are you going to heed the words of the New Covenant and be free from the bondage of the obsolete Old Covenant?

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
---Lee1538 on 2/9/10


How do you advise His people, to be Christ like?

Or do you advise them to be like a lawless Christ?
---Paul9594 on 2/8/10

It is my prayer for you to truly know and understand the love of The Father and understand His character.

I do not advise anyone to be disobedient to His commandments. We are called to obedience as 1 Peter 1:2 tells us.

However, I also do not advise anyone to be under the bondage of the Law. We are not to be judged by anyone (including you) in regard to food, drink, festival, or Sabbath as Col 2:16 tell us.

You should not consume yourself with only conduct, but you should be consumed with communion with the Father.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/9/10


"\\the answer is YES, It is one of TEN COMMANDMENTS\\

Actually, there are 613 commandments in the OT.

Do you observe them all, Francis, or do you pick and choose which ones you observe and which ones you ignore?"
---Cluny on 2/8/10

Maybe these are the ones to which Francis referred:

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
---jerry6593 on 2/9/10


\\In the bible there is the LAW OF GOD written and spoken by God, and the LAW OF MOSES written and spoken by Moses\\

I've already posted on such artificial distinctions: and in this very thread, I think.

The Bible speaks of only one law: The Law.
---Cluny on 2/8/10


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\\In the bible there is the LAW OF GOD written and spoken by God, and the LAW OF MOSES written and spoken by Moses\\

I've already spoken on this issue of the artificial distinction of different kinds of law in the Bible.

The Bible itself speaks of only ONE law: The Law.

If I understand you right, Francis, you are admitting you pick and choose which ones of God's laws you follow.
---Cluny on 2/8/10


Paul, here's a quick summary of how I am not under law and don't need it.

1 Have no other Gods...
I love the Lord my God.
2) Make no grave image...
I love the Lord my God, why would I?
3) Don't take the Lord's name in vain...
I love the Lord my God, why would I?
4) Remember the Sabbath to get it holy
Because I love the Lord my God, everyday is Holy.
5) Honor your father and mother...
My father-in-law is 90, we are taking care of him, because I love my neighbor as myself.
6) Don't murder...
I can't image, because I am learning to love my neighbor as myself
7) No adultery...
I can't image, because I love my wife.

Out of room, but you get the idea.
---Rod4Him on 2/8/10


Because some people have been brainwashed into thinking that their beliefs are superior to ones who don't think as they do. They are bound to the law and have forgotten that we are released from the law through the saving work of Jesus. Through the law is the knowledge of sin and that is where they live. In sin. If they live by law, then they can't break even one of them or they have broken all. I am pretty sure that those who believe that those who don't keep the ancient Sabbath will perish also break the other laws as most of us do but for them, it condemns them. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus and there is liberty as well. We are saved by GRACE through Faith. Jesus is our righteousness.
---jody on 2/8/10


Well put Paul.
---Nana on 2/8/10


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Mark_eaton:
U posted:
Unlike the commandment that is for His benefit (Love the Lord your God) and unlike the commandment that is for the benefit of others (Love your neighbor as yourself), this commandment is just for ME.///

Ah Mark, it is also for our benefit to love the Father.
Because for one it is better to have a happy Father because we keep His commandments, than an upset Father chastising us because we break His instructions.

How do you advise His people, to be Christ like?

Or do you advise them to be like a lawless Christ?
---Paul9594 on 2/8/10


Samuel //Sabbath keepers are told they are trying to save themselves by works.

Sabbath keepers claim that if you truly love Jesus then you will keep the 10 commandments. However the NT verse they use, they interpret incorretly.

If you truly love Jesus, then you will let His spirit cause you to be born again so that His Spirit will rule over you instead of the OT law.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


Lee - this inner discipline of the Spirit you advocate is no more than subjective christianized Greek Platonic/Socratic philosophy. It's subjective in that it enables the argument that what's right for you may not be right for me. It's the kind of thinking that leads a people to permit abortion and euthanasia. it's subjective. The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it. God's moral law, the 10 commandments are the objective unchangeable standard by which righteousness is defined. James asks if we don't know that we'll be judged by the law of liberty, and context identifies that law. It's the mirror so we don't forget what we really are, and who we need to save us.
---senshent1 on 2/8/10


The Hebrew word "Sabbath" literally means "Rest", it does not mean "seventh day".
---Eloy on 2/8/10


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Cluny
Actually, there are 613 commandments in the OT.

Do you observe them all, Francis, or do you pick and choose which ones you observe and which ones you ignore?

This is a very good question
The answer is in the bible. It may take TWO post to answer this

In the bible there is the LAW OF GOD written and spoken by God, and the LAW OF MOSES written and spoken by Moses
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


CONTINUED
---francis on 2/8/10


This is THE LAW OF GOD

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

This is the LAW of MOSES
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.


the Law of Moses, was nailed to the cross.
the Law of God is eternal.



Read the book called: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS TWICE REMOVEd for indepth details

SEE NEXT POST for more
---francis on 2/8/10


Why does no one here understand the true nature of the sabbath? Have we all become Pharisees fighting about the Law?

Jesus show us the true meaning in Mark 2:

Mark 2:26 "Jesus said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath'".

If God made the Sabbath for us, then it is for OUR benefit. Unlike the commandment that is for His benefit (Love the Lord your God) and unlike the commandment that is for the benefit of others (Love your neighbor as yourself), this commandment is just for ME.

If I choose not to follow it, I do not receive its benefit. Plain and simple.

It all comes down to obedience, again.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/8/10


\\the answer is YES, It is one of TEN COMMANDMENTS\\

Actually, there are 613 commandments in the OT.

Do you observe them all, Francis, or do you pick and choose which ones you observe and which ones you ignore?
---Cluny on 2/8/10


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>I keep Sabbath, but if you don't, I don't have an issue with it, nor am I willing to judge your salvation.

That's the correct perspective.
---djconklin on 2/8/10


Sabbath is a contentious issue because of judgements on both sides. Sabbath keepers are told they are trying to save themselves by works. But those who keep any of the other ten commandments do not face this charge. We are told we are putting ourself under the old covenant again not a charge made about the other nine.

At the same time many Sabbath keepers charge others with false worship and not following GOD.

Paul spoke against judging others on Sabbath. JESUS spoke against judging others. Salation is from JESUS. I can speak about why I think we should keep Sabbath you can say why you think I am wrong. But JUDGING should never be done by either side.
---Samuel on 2/8/10


Frances - Satan today is asking the same question: Did god really say you must keep the law for our walk and salvation?

The answer is NO, since the law was given as a temporary measure UNTIL we could be justified by faith in Christ. Ever read Galatians 3 & 4?


And in being justified by faith in Christ, we have the INNER discipline of His Spirit to guide us. We no longer need the EXTERNALISM of the law.

When are you going to submit to Christ and become born again in Him? If you do not, then like Paul9594 says, you will hear Mt. 7:20-23.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


Always On, Because it's what GOD says that counts. At the end-of-the-day, it doesn't REALLY matter what you or I say, or do....It's "What does GOD really say about the Sabbath" that counts. And we have it already in Scripture, and then clarified through some of His holy Prophets and Teachers of today. It really comes down to "Do we really want to do exactly what GOD tells us to do, and HOW He tells us to do it, or not?
---Gordon on 2/8/10


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In the garden of eden, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?

Satan today is asking the same question: Did god really say you must keep the sabbath?

the answer is YES, It is one of TEN COMMANDMENTS

Satan is very crafty, he gets people to break the Law of god, and sin against God , knowing that the wages of sin is DEATH.


How much longer are we as christians going to challenge the word of God?
---Francis on 2/8/10


\\And did Christ have a fleshy nature as you do?\\

I don't know what you mean by "fleshy nature," but Christianity does teach that our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ has the full divine nature and full human nature.
---Cluny on 2/8/10


the New Covenant started with the death of Jesus on the cross, and continues into eternity. the new covenant does not end with the return of Jesus, under the new Covenant we have eternal life with christ. ( gift of God is eternal life through Jesus)

In the New Covenant, all believers will keep the sabath holy.

This shows that the sabbath is in fact part of the new covenant.

Isiaih 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
---FRANCIS on 2/8/10


//But you extrapolate that I am no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

Many of the laws found in the Old Testament were not mandated to Gentile believers. If they were, then there would not have been any necessity for a Jerusalem council.

As to the Jewish Sabbath, I suspect that if it was mandated to the church, it would have been just a matter of time before it became a grievous burden and used to measure the spirituality of others, like during the time of Jesus.

And yes we can see from church history that the Judaizers attempted to make Sunday observance the same burden as those who promoted the Jewish Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


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Paul9594 //Christ cannot walk in the Spirit so He does the fleshly? And keeps the least commandment Of HIS LAW?

And did Christ have a fleshy nature as you do?

If He did, then He certainly would have gotten along good with the Pharisees, scribes and other opponents for they emphasized the Torah law especially observance of the olde Jewish Sabbath and used it as a means of measuring others spirituality.

When are you going to submit to the Lord and be born again in Him?
---Lee1538 on 2/8/10


AlwaysOn: Isn't it strange how those who teach that the Ten Commandment Law may be annulled are so quick to "judge" a Sabbath-keeper for the day he "esteems" in contradiction to their favorite scripture (Rom 14:5).
---jerry6593 on 2/8/10


senshent1 - The charge Christians under grace can do whatever they wish is contrary to the teachings of Scripture (Romans 6:14f). There is no license to sin.

When one is born again in the Holy Spirit, the Christian acquires a new nature which abhors sin (2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.)

The Christian is indwelt by Gods Spirit (Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him) . That being the case, the Christian has the inner discipline of the Holy Spirit and thus does not need the externalism of the law.
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


Paul9594 //When will you walk after the Law of righteousness?

The only law we need heed is known as the law of Christ.

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

When will you be won for Christ outside the law? When the law has fulfilled its purpose in showing you that you need the Savior?

//You may surprised 2 hear Matthew 7:20-23

No one born of His Spirit will hear the words 'depart from me, I never knew you'. However if you reject the grace offered to you in Christ you will definitely hear those words.

When are you going to consent to the words of our Lord?
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


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Cluny, mima, Lee1538, MarkV:

Lee1538 said:
As stated before the flesh loves loves to be religious.///

So then because the Son of God that came in the flesh, and by keeping the least commandment, you reason that :

Christ in keeping the Law, is in bondage?

Christ loves loves to be RELIGIOUS thats why He keeps the least commandment of His Father?

WITH YOUR REASONING,
Christ cannot walk in the Spirit so He does the fleshly? And keeps the least commandment Of HIS LAW?

Can you hear yourself talking down/against Christ and His Law of righteousness?

How long will you continue in this error?

When will you walk after the Law of righteousness?
You may surprised 2 hear Matthew 7:20-23
---Paul9594 on 2/7/10


\\If you were to read older & fundamentalistic Adventist literature you would see that all other denominations come out of Roman Catholicism and are thus apostates.\\

Which is historically untrue.

Only PROTESTANTS are breakaways from Rome.

Orthodoxy, Non-Chalcedonian Churches, and the Assyrian Church of the East were never under Rome.

It is significant that the multi-volume index of the works of Ellen G. White have pages and pages of references about Roman Catholicism, but not ONE reference to Orthodoxy or other Eastern Churches.

Could it be that she was simply unaware of them, as there were none in 19th Century New England at the time?
---Cluny on 2/7/10


Lee ah the always amusing cliche we are no longer under the law with extended ramification. The law says if you would live you must do what I say perfectly, if you don't you die. Jesus came to do what I couldn't, live a perfect sinless life as me, and, if I receive Him I pass from death to life, and am no longer "under" the penalty of the law. But you extrapolate that I am no longer under the jurisdiction of the law. Not that you would say, I can now kill, steal, or commit adultery, but to say it is not sin to dismiss His Sabbath. Who defines/determines sin?
---senshent1 on 2/7/10


It is because setting a day aside for celebration is a big thing for mankind. Even the Lord Jesus did not keep the sabbath. " And for this reason did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But people forget that the Lord God Jesus says: "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. My Father works up to here, and I work." Keeping the sabbath day is not salvation, but keeping Jesus is salvation.
---Eloy on 2/7/10


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I believe one reason "keeping the Sabbath" is appealing is that it is a way of feeling that one can "do something" to earn some righteousness.

If one feels they must keep part of the law, they are obligated to keep all the law.

I am curious, how do those that say one should keep the Sabbath, what do they say about keeping the rest of the torah? Keep part, but not all?
---Rod4Him on 2/7/10


Senshenti//Does faith make void the law? Paul said no, it establishes the law.

Establishes the law means that the purpose for which it was created is accomplished once the believer is placed in Christ.

Galatians speaks of our not being under the law as the guardian (schoolmaster) was no longer needed after it fulfilled its purpose in establishing the believer to faith in Christ.

(3:24f)So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

The righteous live by faith, not by the law. (3:11)

Glad that we are in agreement.
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


All this circuitous reasoning is driving me nuts! So here's my version: As a Sabbath keeper I know that "by the works of the law shall no man be justified. There was a time in SDA history where some leadership was Galationist in teaching that you had to also "keep the Sabbath" in order to be saved. It was never an "official" position of the church, it was a source for theological schism that has led to a present day emphasis of Righteousness by faith. Paul's emphasis of the "in Christ" motif.
---senshent1 on 2/7/10


However, Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my commandments." He told the prostitute caught in adultery, "go and sin no more." the Biblical definition for sin is 1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law" Paul said Rom. 7:7 "I had no known sin except the law said.." no question to which law he was referring. That which is not of faith is sin. Does faith make void the law? Paul said no, it establishes the law. David said, thy law have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." Jesus has written His law in our hearts enabling us to do what He has asked us.
---senshent1 on 2/7/10


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//I was referring to a few Adventists I met over the decades who believed Sabbath observance necessary for salvation. I do not believe that is official Adventist doctrine.

True, since there has been changes in Adventists doctrine over the years.

If you were to read older & fundamentalistic Adventist literature you would see that all other denominations come out of Roman Catholicism and are thus apostates. However, apostates will not true Christians but professors and will not acquire salvation.
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


Paul9594 //Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

And what is one of these 'least commandments'? If you answered physically circumcision, you probably got the right answer.

Your contention that the Jerusalem council mandated adherence to the laws of Judaism is without merit.

And your contention that Jesus is not enough for our salvation & walk, comes from the teachings of the Judaizers.

As stated before the flesh loves loves to be religious.
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


Gal. 3:2-3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The law cannot justify the sinner (Gal. 2:16) nor can it make him righteous (v.21), it cannot give him the gift of the Spirit (3:2) nor can it guarantee the spiritual inheritance that belongs to the Christian.

When you live by grace in Christ,you depend upon the power of His Spirit, but under the law you must depend on yourself and your own efforts via observances to religion. The flesh does not manufacture love for God & others, howbeit love for others fulfills the law (Romans 13:10).
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


Unfortuately Adventists in believing that the Old Covenant laws - there are over 600 of them - was written on the hearts of believers in the New Covenant dispensation are effectively accusing other Christians of being in open disobedience or rebellion to God's holy law concerning the Sabbath.

As such they stand in condemnation of other Christians who have different convictions.

The Christian life is not one of obedience to OT laws but one that is a constant walk with Christ with the main attribute of showing love towards others.
---Lee1538 on 2/7/10


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How does resting on Saturday versus resting on Sunday or any day of the week for that matter help Christians to love either God or others which are the two commandments New Testament Christians are to follow? God never required a day of Saturday rest for the gentiles - it was for the Jews. Again the modern Judaizers make these requirements which the Bible calls false teachers and false prophets. The modern Judaizers continue to follow the path of the Judaizers in the first century which was condemned in the Bible.
---Alan on 2/7/10


-- Warwick :

//// I do not understand why some are so condemning of those Christians who choose to rest on the Sabbath? ////

Brother, All "Sabbath keepers" are not being corrected for their choice to rest on a Sabbath Day, but just those who have been lead to think & proclaim that their Justification unto Salvation is kept by their flesh keeping the law(Sabbath) !!!
---ShawnM.T. on 2/7/10


Mr. On: None of us should ever judge someone's salvation - not even our own. We are not qualified since our natures do not contain infinite wisdom, justice and mercy. That is God's job, and when we attempt it, we are elevating ourselves to His level, and thus we are blaspheming.

I think that the Sabbath issue is a much broader one than generally discussed. The core issues involve the applicability of the Ten Commandment Law to Christians, and the preference for man-made counterfeits over the religion of the Bible. It is as if many of us want a "designer religion" - one tailor-made for our peculiar tastes and centered about "my salvation", rather than one which tries to please the God whom we claim to love.
---jerry6593 on 2/7/10


Alwayson, I was referring to a few Adventists I met over the decades who believed Sabbath observance necessary for salvation. I do not believe that is official Adventist doctrine.

Lee seems to think otherwise. Maybe he could quote us chapter and verse from official Adventist literature to support his claim?

As regards which day is the Sabbath, I would believe Saturday as Sunday has traditioinally been the first day of the week. Also in a number of languages the name for Saturday comes from Sabbath.

Therefore if one is inclined to keep the Sabbath I would agree Saturday is the day. As a nonSabbath keeper I do not understand why some are so condemning of those Christians who choose to rest on the Sabbath?
---Warwick on 2/6/10


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Those who follow Christ should be a light, because they that forsake the Law:

Pro 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked, But such as keep the law contend with them.

Also Christ did say:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.
---Paul9594 on 2/6/10


I don't believe in a 24 hour sabbath, but do not ever change your beliefs until THE LORD has decided that you should believe differently. If you let yourself be forced to believe anything that doesn't make sense to YOU, then you become a HYPOCRITE.

Other people want to be "GREAT TEACHER", that is why they don't mind their own business (they refuse to "live quietly" not bothering people)....

1 Thessalonians 4:11...

"live quietly and mind your own affairs".

Let Jesus speak to your conscience as the one and only "GREAT TEACHER" and He will tell you when and IF to change.

Real spiritual growth begins when He becomes the teacher (1 John 2:27).

Verses are RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 2/6/10


David - Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: ...For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Since the Jewish calendar started with Moses (see Exodus 12:2) and no ancient calendar we know of had a 7 day week, it only assumed that Saturday was the 7th day. However, Saturday may not have been the 7th day of creation.

So those who work 6 days a week starting Monday and rest on the 7th day do indeed obey the commandment.
---Lee1538 on 2/6/10


I don't want to debate Sabbath keeping vs. non-Sabbath keeping. I only want to know why it is a topic that's debated over and over and over again with such vigor here. If one person keeps it and the other doesn't, to each her/his own. I fail to see why either side feels the repeated need to convince the other to see things exactly as they do. We've been over this countless times before and we know the argument inside and out. One camp believes the commandment stands, the other doesn't. At what point do we agree to disagree and move on? Let's trust the Holy Spirit to lead, shall we?

With that, it's Saturday to some and Sabbath to others. Either way, I'm off to take a nap. Please do not disturb. LOL
---AlwaysOn on 2/6/10


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\\Cluny, I only speak for myself. "Keeping the Sabbath" means keeping it holy (i.e. set apart from all other days) as a day of rest. And, no, I can't keep every day holy (set apart) in this sense, because, if I did, I'd never be able to work, run errands, etc. I rest on Saturday, because it's what I know to be the 7th day.\\

I'm glad you admit that the Sabbath Commandment had nothing to do with worship, but with rest from labor. If you're an employer, do you also give your employees that day off, too?

Now, do you keep ALL of the Biblical Sabbaths, or do you pick and choose which ones you observe?
---Cluny on 2/6/10


Perhaps keeping the Sabbath,as given to the Israelites,on Saturday,is so much debated because it is part of the First Covenant but not the Second or New Covenant. Gentiles aren't under the Old Covenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he says,a New Covenant,he has made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Acts 15:24 -keep the law-to whom we gave no such commandment. Acts 15:28,29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these things. That you abstain from meats offered to idols,from blood,things strangled,and from fornication:from which if you keep yourselves,you shall do well,-. Christians are not to mix the Old Covenant with the New Covenant,Jesus didn't.
---Darlene_1 on 2/6/10


read exodus20:8-11, 31:12-17, 35:2-3 & deuteronomy 5:12-15
---David on 2/6/10


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, The contention derives from the judgment that our Justification unto Salvation is kept by the flesh keeping the law(Sabbath).

I ask, Receive ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the Hearing of Faith?

Why would any one after having begun in the Spirit, Believe that they're now kept Perfect by the flesh keeping the whole law?

If there had been a law give which could have given Life, Righteousness would've been by the law : but the law was only our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be Justified by Faith where we're kept Perfect in Christ unto Salvation b/c we're now "Dead to sin", and no longer dead in sin. Gal.3:21-29, 1Peter 2:24, Eph.2:5
---Shawn.M.T on 2/6/10


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Warwick, I understand if Sabbath is being presented as a salvation issue, but I don't see a lot of that around here. Maybe I missed those blogs.

KarenD, I don't understand your reply. Have I asked this before? If so, please forgive me for repeating myself. Just shows I'm not clear on why this is an ongoing issue.

Cluny, I only speak for myself. "Keeping the Sabbath" means keeping it holy (i.e. set apart from all other days) as a day of rest. And, no, I can't keep every day holy (set apart) in this sense, because, if I did, I'd never be able to work, run errands, etc. I rest on Saturday, because it's what I know to be the 7th day. Be clear that I'm not saying you are wrong if you don't see things my way.
---AlwaysOn on 2/6/10


Well, I think you said it all, right here!
---catherine on 2/6/10


If we look at the history as recorded in scripture, it would seem that we can properly conclude that the day God rested in Genesis was the same day of the week He refrained from giving manna and told Israel to keep holy--because in six days He created and rested the 7th. Likewise when He was here on earth, He was laid in the tomb and the following day, the disciples "rested according to the commandment". These would seem to be pretty clear evidence that the 7th day was the same at creation and down at least through the resurrection. We may celebrate His resurrection, but that does not mean that we should cast doubt on the weekly cycle in the bible from Genesis to the present.
---Wayne8738 on 2/5/10


What exactly do people think "keep the Sabbath" means?

And what do they mean by "Sabbath"? If they mean just Saturday, the Bible itself disagrees.
---Cluny on 2/5/10


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Because the centerpiece of the Adventist movement is obedience to selected OT laws.

In essence the 4th commandment merely states we are to rest one day in 7.

Ex 34:21 6 days you shall work, but on the 7th day you shall rest.

Since the Jewish calendar was created with Moses, the 7th day thence became the Sabbath.

Ex 12:2 This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the 1st month of the year for you.

However, the Sabbath was not heard of prior to Moses and we only know God created the world in 6 days and rested on the Seventh but that may not have been our Saturday.

Christians honor the Lord's day as that was the day of the resurrection of our Lord.
---Lee1538 on 2/5/10


Is it my imagination or do some people just not know how to return to a question they previously asked?
---KarenD on 2/5/10


The bible says Saturday the Sabbath and day to worship with the congregation and the day of rest. Sabbath and day of rest is from Sun down on Friday to Sun down on Saturday. Sunday is a workday not a day of rest.
---Larry on 2/5/10


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