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Who Are The Judaizers

Who are the Judaizers? How do we really identify the Judaizers? Do they believe in Grace?

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 ---Kayla4 on 2/8/10
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frances - in quoting Mt. 5:17-18 you are maintaining the Jesus did NOT fulfill anything and the church is still under the Old Covenant dispensation - to laws not even mentioned in the New Covenant.

And your position rejects the decision made at the Jerusalem council that Gentile converts need not observe laws strictly Jewish such as circumcision, sabbath keeping, dietary law, etc..

While you demand obedience to certain OT laws, you dismember the law in insisting on obedience to the Jewish Sabbath, but reject obedience to God's explicit command to observe "the Passover, the Feasts of weeks, Unleavened Bread, Harvest, and Ingathering" (Exodus 23, 34).

You cannot pitch one stricly OT law and neglect the others.
---lee on 2/15/10


Francis:

In your verses from Matthew 5, Jesus tells us "...not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished"

Yet in John 14, Jesus tells us "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

If keeping the Law is so important, why didn't Jesus simply tell us to keep the Law?

Instead Jesus tells us to keep HIS commandments. Why? There is a difference between keeping His commandments and keeping the Law.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me, and (AH)he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
---Mark_Eaton on 2/15/10


Francis //Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The 2 tables being that ministry of death & condemnation craved on stone and contrasted with the ministry of the Spirit which replaced it. 2 Cor. 3:7f

There is an associated command regarding the 10 commandments you need to heed and that is you are "to REMEMBER thou wast a servant in the LAND OF EGYPT ,...therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day".De. 5:15.

Did your ancestors come out of Egypt? It seems rather stupid to believe we were once in Egypt as most of us are of Gentile stock and never under the old Mosaic Law.
---Lee1538 on 2/15/10


Did jesus Lie?
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

and does fulfil mean do away with?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil (DO AWAY WITH) all righteousness.
---francis on 2/15/10


Rightly diving the word of God:

LAW OF GOD

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude, only [ye heard] a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


God spoke it, and wrote.
This is the Law of God. He added NO MORE
---francis on 2/15/10




Mark_Eaton
"How many times do you have to parade James 2:10 out of context to prove your point.

The verse has no description of the law, or the contents of the law. "

Actually it does:
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

(He who said) is a direct reference to God speaking the ten commandments. God did not speak to israel about anything alse. James used two of the ten Murder and Adultery.

Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake .. and HE ADDED NO MORE. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
---francis on 2/15/10


While the law of God, (10 commandments) was spoken and written directly by God, the Law of Moses, was spoken and writen by Moses to israel.


LAW OF MOSES

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.



Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

(God commanded it, But God calls it Law of Moses)

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

( MOSES DID THAT)
---francis on 2/15/10


Kayla: Lawless judged 4/5

When you identify the Pharisee you identify the judiazer.

Why?
Because they have the same train of thought of the precepts of men which add/ subtract from the commandments of the Father, and with this, they are keeping THEIR TRADITIONS, TEACHINGS, and NOT the Torah/law of the Father in the spirit of love: Christ

Are we not supposed to have the Spirit of love of Christ?

I will focus more on the true Pharisee/Jews doctrine because the apostasy of today teaches that Pharisees kept the Law promoted the Law when reality according to Christ and even Paul they did not keep the Law but THIER doctrine, TRADITIONS in a strict manner, WHICH VOIDED the word of The Father.
---Paul9594 on 2/14/10


//the Ten Commandments and Moral laws from all the previous covenants are in effect.

And why was there a Jerusalem council meeting to determine if Gentiles had to observe the Old Covenant Jewish laws?

And why does the book of Hebrews speak of the old covenant as being obsolete?

And why does Galatians brand those who are from Mt. Sinai as slave children of Hagar?

And why does Romans tell us that one may esteem one day over others or none at all?

And why does Colossians tell us that we may not judge others as to the keeping of a sabbath or what we eat or drink?

There are far too many questions that Sabbaterians are unable to answer from the Word of God.

Judaizers?
---Lee1538 on 2/14/10


Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mt 13:11-23 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given...
...he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it...


Rather than rejoice, you beat each other with the Word of God... and then expect mercy?

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law: ye are fallen from grace.
---BruceB on 2/14/10




The Ten Commandments and the Covenants were given to the Jews to bring to the world. JESUS CHRIST brought all who believe into covenant with him and joined us to Israel.

Dispensatinalist Exegies and theology denies this setting up a new set of barriers making different ways of being saved.

Covenant theolgy and exegies acknowleges we are in the New Covenant but that the Ten Commandments and Moral laws from all the previous covenants are in effect. We are saved by grace alone. But all scripture is for the church. All scripture must be taken into account to found any doctrine not just one or two without context.

The health codes are good for us today just like for the jews.
---Samuel on 2/14/10


Jerry //Those who love Jesus love to OBEY His Law.

True, those who love Jesus obey all APPLICABLE laws He has given us. And the main focus is to love ones neighbor for therein is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:9-10)

If you truly love the law, then why do you not observe the various national feasts as COMMANDED?

Ex 23:16 You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.

Those who pitch OT law fail to understand they are under a curse if they rely on works of the law for their justification.Gal. 3:10.
---Lee1538 on 2/14/10


Those who love Jesus love to OBEY His Law. Those who do not love Him love to DISOBEY His Law. It's as simple as that.

Those who condemn individuals of other denominations as heretics because of honest differences of opinion, or frequently call them demeaning names such as "cultist" or "Judaizer" do so because of the lack of any intellgent responses, and thus show a lack of Christian character.
---jerry6593 on 2/14/10


Paul9594 - //Many churches and some here preach against keeping the Law in the Spirit of love! Even gainst some of the points of the Ten Commandments!

Would you mind naming a few? What we hear in most churches that preach the gospel, is that one is saved not by works but by truly believing in Christ and in doing so, works are only a product of sanctification by His Spirit.

Of course, perhaps you believe Christ was a liar when He stated 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

To you in your exhortation to observe OT Jewish laws you are teaching a false gospel of works like the Judaizers.

The flesh loves loves loves to be religious.
---Lee1538 on 2/13/10


Paul9594 in quoting Romans 7:3 totally ignores the basic point made in that chapter that we died to the law.

7:4-6 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law thru the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

But all the law does is to arouse our sinful passions.

when are you going to stop trying to be your own savior?
---Lee1538 on 2/13/10


Paul9594 - your theory that we can be sinless is faulty.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now BEFORE faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

The Christian life is not obedience to the old written code as 'we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit'. Romans 7:6

It appears to us that your religion is what is getting in the way of the truth (Truth) as the Scripture attest.

When are you going to acknowledge the truth of the gospel?
---Lee1538 on 2/13/10


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Paul9594,

You make very good points, your spirit is like Paul the apostle.

I've just seen your other comments here.
Gee alot food for thought! I can see this is a loaded question!

God bless.
---Kayla on 2/13/10


Kayla: Lawless judged 3/5
A judaizer ANOTHER Pharisee, of the Jews religion, their doctrine of Judaism/Pharisees.

Proof?

Paul said:
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my manner of life IN TIME PAST in the JEWS RELIGION, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:

BEFORE Paul's conversion TO CHRIST.
Paul was of the Jews religion, practicing the doctrine of Judaism! Paul persecuted the TRUE CHURCH ,
Within the Jews religion He describes himself as:
Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, >> as touching the law, <<< a PHARISEE.

More to come laying the identifying illustrations/teachings.
---Paul9594 on 2/13/10


While that is the claim made by some Adventists, the overiding belief is that Scripture must be interpreted according to the writings of Ellen White. This is similar to what the Roman Church believes.
Lee1538

The overiding number of SDA and the Church officialy states this is our position. Our Exegieses of scripture is on a solid foundation. Built by Wesley and Luther with some help from Calvin all who greatly influenced our church Beliefs. The RCC teaches that the tradation including the writings of the Early church fathers you quote are equal to scripture. We teach Sola Scriptora.
---Samuel on 2/13/10


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
---MIchael on 2/13/10


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Paul9594 states one is saved by works instead of by grace in quoting Matthew 7:20f and in doing so he effectively makes a liar out of Christ. Our righteousness is in Christ, not in ourselves. 1 Cor. 1:30

Eph.2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

And in quoting Matthew 7:20f, he makes Christ out to be a liar since Christ cannot say to those born of His spirit that 'I never knew you, depart from me you who work lawlessness'.

Like the Judaizers he preaches a false gospel of works.
---Lee1538 on 2/13/10


Kayla: Lawless judged 2/5

Paul teachings: 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work:

See repetitive pattern of lawlessness was so even in Paul/Christs generation?

What was then is now Eccl. 3:15!

Many churches and some here preach against keeping the Law in the Spirit of love!Even gainst some of the points of the Ten Commandments!
We live in an adulterous generation women divorce for other than fornication, ignoring teachings of the Apostles, Christ.

Rom 7:3 while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.
---Paul9594 on 2/13/10


Lee1538:

Said:
...Judaizer as they believe Jesus is not enough for our salvation & walk, that we need observance of selected OT law as taught by the false brethren that invaded the churches of Galatia.///

MAtthew 7:20-23 By their fruits ye shall know them. ...then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work LAWLESSNESS.

On the day of judgment Christ sent to hell those not bearing true fruit. They had faith to cast out demons, prophesied in Jesus name but were LAWLESS.

With Lee's reasoning:

Can you see Lee MAKES Christ a false teacher,a false bethren and a BAD Judge BECAUSE he sent those who believed, had faith in his name to Cast out demons, prophesied BUT WERE LAWLESS?
---Paul9594 on 2/13/10


MarkV - about the best book that refutes unique Adventist beliefs is Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. He covers just about all aspects of their belief system and from a scriptural standpoint.

On the internet there is Proclamation by Life Assurance Ministry. The Adventists truly hate it as they have lost hundreds who were enslaved by Adventism judging by the written testimonies.

And it is almost impossible to not see that the hardrock SDA is truly a Neo Judaizer as they believe Jesus is not enough for our salvation & walk, that we need observance of selected OT law as taught by the false brethren that invaded the churches of Galatia.
---Lee1538 on 2/13/10


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Francis:

How many times do you have to parade James 2:10 out of context to prove your point.

Lee described the context of the verse correctly. If you sin, you are convicted guilyy just as if you had broken every law even though you only broken one.

The verse has no description of the law, or the contents of the law. The passage is illustrating a spiritual principle, just like the law of reaping and sowing. The principle is of the transgression of sin.

It is illustrated other places in Scripture such as:

Rom 2:25 "For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law, but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/12/10


Lee, can you give me the name of the book that will help me on the answers, again? You gave it to me already but I cannot find the blog which has the name and the author, and I did not write it down. Thanks and blessings
---MarkV. on 2/12/10


24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the 2d and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

This is probably the most convolated doctrine invented by the Adventists as it speaks of salvation by works and is much the same as with the Jehovah's Witnesses view that Christ came invisibly in 1914.


John 5:24 24 ...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (judgment), but is passed from death unto life.
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


francis //James speaks of TEN commandments ( LAW OF GOD)

The problem with many people who study the Bible is that they assume that scripture makes a differentiation as to type of law.

James speaks of law, he does not mean ten commandments alone but ALL the law.

If you insist that one must adhere to the 10 commandments and NOT observe the other laws such as the Passover celebration, then you are guilty of dismembering the Word of God.

If you wish to obey the law, then you are obligated to obey ALL the law and not cherry pick what you wish to observe.
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


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francis//james says keep the WHOLE LAW, and Paul implies that we are not to keep the WHOLE LAW.

What James is saying is that you are guilty or held accountable if you so much as violate any of the Old Covenant laws. Paul says we are to continue in the guidance of His Spirit. Gal.3:3

Samuel//The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, ....

While that is the claim made by some Adventists, the overiding belief is that Scripture must be interpreted according to the writings of Ellen White. This is similar to what the Roman Church believes.
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


francis -Galations speaks of Sanctuary law (LAW OF MOSES circumcise 8th day)

Simply not true as Galatians was written to counter the teachings of the Judaizers that one had to observe the laws of Judaism. And circumcision was merely the entrance rite into Judaism.

Galatians points out that one should live by His Spirit (3:3), not by laws. If you have the Internal guidance of the Holy Spirit, then why do you need the Externalism of the Law in your Christian walk?

Gal. 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified (declared rigthous) before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith. See also Romans 1:17.
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


The most demeaning and controversial one is the annointing of Ellen White and her writings being placed on the same (or higher) level than Scripture itself.Lee1538

A false charge. I had to shorten the statments to fit.

18. Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift ... manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a source of truth which provide for the church comfort, ... They make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

1. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, ....
---Samuel on 2/12/10


LEE writes:
Gal.5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

Now look at this text: James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

james says keep the WHOLE LAW, and Paul implies that we are not to keep the WHOLE LAW.

Can you see the difference?

Galations speaks of
Sanctuary law ( LAW OF MOSES circumcise 8th day)
Leviticus 12:3
And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.


James speaks of TEN commandments ( LAW OF GOD)
---francis on 2/12/10


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Samuel // how many of our 28 beliefs do you teach are false?

The most demeaning and controversial one is the annointing of Ellen White and her writings being placed on the same (or higher) level than Scripture itself.

White really has no Aaron's rod to validate her as a prophet of God.

And that is the reason we have seen thousands of former Adventists leaving that denomination.
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


Dale Ratzlaff. he provides a Scriptural Index, SDA quotes scripture in support of their unique beliefs, he has a very sufficient reply.

Also there is the free monthly publication Proclamation that is full of good articles and testimonies on Adventism. Lee1538

I read Proclaimation. It trots out the same old tired one sided arguments that have been refuted for over a century. Many testimonies deal with the freedom to live as they please and not have to sacrifice. We only have two unique beliefs. Most of our beliefs we share with many other Christians. Lee how many of our 28 beliefs do you teach are false?
---Samuel on 2/12/10


//Galatians deals with circumcision, not ten commandments. Some of us have been getting the context wrong. It is circumcision specific, not ten commandments.

You forget that circumcision is the entrance rite into the Jewish religion.

Gal.5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

So the real issue was the imposition of OT law onto Gentile converts.

But what does the law do?

For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it (the promise) depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his (Abraham's) offspring

Romans 4:5
---Lee1538 on 2/12/10


Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shal be saved. Does believe exclude obedience to God?

By Faith we establish the law, not abolish the law.

Galations deals with circumcision, not ten commandments. Some of us have been getting the context wrong. It is circumcision specific, not ten commandments

Circumsision is a blood scarifice, and as we know there are no more blood sacrifices for sin.
---francis on 2/12/10


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Kayla: Truth seeker 4/4

Kayla, by the Scripture illustrations, and without the precepts of men, we see what the repetitive cycle is about!

The DOMINATING teachings has always been of men, WHICH VOID the teachings of The Father! And because men, even His people DO NOT do His teachings, the Father ultimately judges them.

Applying this biblical understanding of the dominating doctrine cycle.
What is the dominating doctrine of this generation, of the last days?

The precepts/doctrines of men, again! Under different denominations, WHICH VOID the Fathers teachings/instructions/Law, and they end up lawless and judged by the Father.

What did our Savior Christ tell us will HAPPENING when the end comes?
---Paul9594 on 2/11/10


Kayla: Lawlessness judged 1/5

What did our Savior Christ tell us will be HAPPENING, the conditions when the end comes?

For one:

12 And because the >>> LAWLESSNESS <<< shall be MULTIPLIED, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But who endureth unto the end, the same shall be saved.

What is the consequence of lawlessness?

The love of many today waxes cold!

This is the end result of those who teach against His teachings, instructions!

Do we want love to wax cold? No!
Then don't preach lawlessness as many do!

Sorry I had to lay this foundations before I get back into the identifying judaizers!
---Paul9594 on 2/11/10


MarkV - about the best book that refutes unique Adventist beliefs is Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. He covers just about all aspects of their belief system.

What is very useful is that he provides a Scriptural Index, so that whenever an SDA quotes scripture in support of their unique beliefs, he has a very sufficient reply.

Also there is the free monthly publication Proclamation that is full of good articles and testimonies on Adventism. You can reference it on the internet.

And I have many of White's books as well as many from former Adventists.
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


Francis //be very very carefull of anyone who encourages you not to keep the law of god.

And we should also be very very careful that we do come under the same influence of the false brethren that taught one should mix grace with obedience to OT laws that were not mandated to the church as we also can fall from grace.

Gal. 5:3,4,5 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision (the entrance rite into Judaism) that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified (declared righteous) by the law, you have fallen away from grace....For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


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francis -Acts 16:30-31 Then he brought them out and said,Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

No, NO, NO yells the Judaizers. it is NOT believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that one can be saved but obedience to the law of God.

Perhaps the Sabbaterians really want to believe that since all the translators of our Bible were Sunday worshippers they conspired to support those doctrines held by the early church that believing in Christ is sufficient for our walk & eternal salvation.
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


Lee, I was going to comment on John Wesley, who in fact was an Arminian himself, yet a great teacher on other matters not concerning the law of works. I don't mean to say all of the Methodist, or all of the SDA's for as you I know many who do not follow the law. When I first heard of the SDA church I did a lot of reading concerning their faith. I did read "Christianity in Crisis" and "The kindgom of the Cults" by Walter Martin and other material
to look for information and found that SDA's do believe in salvation by grace through faith. At least many of the congregations. But not all. They have evolve much, as other denominations have also. Now I know a whole lot more then I did when I started.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10


//John 14:15 refers to the 10 Commandments for it was John Wesley who taught that to the SDA church.

That simply proves even John Wesley, a Arminian, was not perfect in his theology.

In any case, Christianity is a relationship with Christ, not some Greeko philosophy or system of ethics by which some would believe we are saved. Jesus is the Savior, not we ourselves in what we do.

I say that since no one except Christ ever obeyed the law of God in its entirely but we will not reach perfection while in the flesh.

Ro 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

Ro 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


CORRECTION:

Although we are NOT saved by works, no one will be saved who trangresses the law.

To transgress the law is sin, and the wages of sin is death

jesus came to save his people FROM thier sins and not IN thier sins.

god urges all men everywhere to repent that is turn away from the transgression of the law.

be very very carefull of anyone who encourages you not to keep the law of god.

peter 2: 2v 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
---francis on 2/11/10
---francis on 2/11/10


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//Although we are saved by works, no one will be saved who trangresses the law.

Salvation is by grace alone as Scripture attests.

Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If you say we are not saved eternally by grace but by obedience to the law, then you do not have Jesus as your Savior as what you do yourself effectively becomes your own savior.

You started with the Spirit and now you expect to be saved by adherence to Jewish law? Gal. 3:3.
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


However, the fundamentalist SDA does tell us that you must follow cherry picked OT laws if you truly love Jesus and they honk John 14:15 - too stupid to realize that those commandments are not the 10 commmandments. Lee1538

I am happy that you consider your SDA sister in law a Christian.

By the way you need to add Methodist church now to Judaizers for they too say that John 14:15 refers to the Ten Commandments for it was John Wesley who taught that to the SDA church. But I think you only meant to call us stupid which is not the way of JESUS.

All the Moral laws apply to the church and health laws are good for us is our cherry picking as you call it.
---Samuel on 2/11/10


MarkV //I don't understand why there is opponents to these passages?

2Co 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts (of the Judaizers).

There are those who claim the name of Christ but are lacking any spiritual rebirth in Jesus. And the god of this world does everything he can to keep that veil over their eyes.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And such is the Neo Judaizers as all they have is their religion, Paul describes it as the religion of the Jews.

And the flesh loves loves loves religion. Is that not true Paul9594?
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


Although we are saved by works, no one will be saved who trangresses the law.

To transgress the law is sin, and the wages of sin is death

jesus came to save his people FROM thier sins and not IN thier sins.

god urges all men everywhere to repent that is turn away from the transgression of the law.

be very very carefull of anyone who encourages you not to keep the law of god.

peter 2: 2v 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
---francis on 2/11/10


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Lee, you are so right, these people wanted to add works of the law to their salvation. And look at what Paul says to them,
"Foolish Galatians! who has bewitched you that you should not obey the Truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?"
We have the same thing happening today. Not much difference. I don't understand why there is opponents to these passages? It is clear what Paul had to say. How can anyone twist the meaning to allow it to mean something else altogher is so very wrong.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10


The Paul's opponents in the Galatians epistle believed one needed to come under the jurisdiction of the old Mosaic law, especially circumcision in order to be genuine Christians. However the epistle refers to them as the slave children of Hagar from Mt. Sinai, not the children of the promise given to Abraham.

These false brethren preached another gospel. 'After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit (of Jesus)why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort'(in observance of OT laws). (3:3 NLT).

So essentially Paul's opponents were preaching the Jesus alone was not enough for ones salvation, that one had to observe the tenets of the Jew's religion (1:13,14).
---Lee1538 on 2/11/10


Lee1538 on 2/10/10
"While the indwelling Holy Spirit works within the believer, He does so that the law is established or upheld for those who have faith."

Great lee, and how much of the Law is upheld? 9/10 or as james puts it THE WHOLE LAW 10/10?
---francis on 2/11/10


Kayla: Truth seeker 3/4
Authoritative illustrations:

Only Noah his family saved from the Flood, the rest judged.
The Israelites called to be His people, when great in number, were in bondage to the Egyptians and few were doing His Fathers laws.
400 yrs of slavery
40 yrs of tribulation i
70 yrs. of captivity

Why repetitive Judgments, for men/ His children?

Because they did NOT keep His ways. His Law/teachings, instructions of faith, mercy, (RIGHT) JUDGMENT of His Law.

Judgment begins in the house of The Father 1 Peter 4:17


Back to the true Judaizers today
---Paul9594 on 2/10/10


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Kayla: Truth seeker 2/4

This Scriptural principle must be understood to begin to identify them:
Ecc 1:9 that which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Lets focus on the >>> REPETITIVE << cycle of what was shall be: regarding the dominating doctrine that rules men!

What HAS BEEN the dominating doctrine from the beginning? Of the Father, or of precepts of men?

Of the precepts of men! This is why men repetitively suffered the Fathers Judgment! Lets look at highlights of men judged by the father because the dominating doctrine were of men and, not of His teachings and instructions!

Scriptural illustrations:
---Paul9594 on 2/10/10


Kayla4: Truth seeker 1/4

All answers below are incorrect regarding who the Judaizers are.
Why do I say this?
Because They do not have any Scriptural authority to make their point, I see most mean well.

By Scripture, you can know and identify who the TRUE JUDAIZERS ARE and how to identify them.
Kayla, is there any new under the sun? Eccl. 1:9

Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Ecc 1:10 Is there a thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been long ago, in the ages which were before us.
---Paul9594 on 2/10/10


Samuel //Well thank you Lee you have shown that Seventh day Adventist Church are not any type of Juaizers.

Yes there are Christians in the SDA that are not judaziers as they do not insist that one needs follow OT law for ones walk and salvation.

My sister-in-law is one such person that does not believe you must mix grace with works such as obedience to OT commandments not found within the New Covenant of the Church.

However, the fundamentalist SDA does tell us that you must follow cherry picked OT laws if you truly love Jesus and they honk John 14:15 - too stupid to realize that those commandments are not the 10 commmandments.

Yes, it is easy to see that there are many conflicts with the Sabbaterian movement.
---Lee1538 on 2/10/10


Francis -//They believe that to break / transgress the Law of God is Sin.

While the Christians is not under the law but under grace, there is no license to sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

While the indwelling Holy Spirit works within the believer, He does so that the law is established or upheld for those who have faith.

Well then,if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact,only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:31 NLT.
---Lee1538 on 2/10/10


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Those who are called Judaizers do believe in Grace. They believe that we are saved by Grace through faith.
---francis on 2/10/10

I cannot agree with this.

What Paul said about the Judaizers in Galatians 2 was that they secretly brought in the heresy that Jesus was not enough for salvation alone, you also had to keep the Law.

Paul told Peter this:

Gal 2:14-16 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/10/10


\\Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 19: 17.. but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

---francis on 2/10/10\\

And what is conspicuous by its absence from both of these lists?
---Cluny on 2/10/10


The Neo Judaizers will not recognize Jesus as their Savior as they would believe that He alone is not sufficient for our salvation and walk, that perfection comes from obedience to Old Covenant law. Lee1538

Well thank you Lee you have shown that Seventh day Adventist Church are not any type of Juaizers. We Teach JESUS CHRIST is our Saviour and Perfection comes from HIM as a gift of Grace. That JESUS in us by the New Birth and the infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT brings to live and walk in the way of JESUS following HIM and obeying HIS Commandments.
---Samuel on 2/10/10


judaizers or not, Jesus and the NT writers place great emphasis on obedience to the commandments of God

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 19: 17.. but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

---francis on 2/10/10


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Judaizer is a name commonly associated with those who believe in obedience to the law of God, more specifically the ten commandments, dietary laws, and the marriage/ sexual laws.

They are opposed by groups who teach that the death of christ has freed us from obeying the law. More specifically those who claim that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.

Those wo are called Judaizers do believe in Grace. They believe that we are saved by Grace through faith. They keep the Laws of God not to be saved, but because they are saved and in the kingdom of God.

They believe that to break / transgress the Law of God is Sin. While they do believe in forgivenes of sin, they do not believe that we should continue to sin that grace may abound.
---francis on 2/10/10


Paul9594 //You quoted Matt 5:48 and said that you are perfected by following the Law.

The Neo Judaizers will not recognize Jesus as their Savior as they would believe that He alone is not sufficient for our salvation and walk, that perfection comes from obedience to Old Covenant law.

Like many that are spiritually deaf, they do not hear our Lord telling them "That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 5:20

To such that glory in their obedience to law and reject His grace, they may hear "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Mt. 7:23
---Lee1538 on 2/10/10


Paul9594:

This will be the last time I post with you. You insult me every time you post.

I say you need understandinng. Let me demonstrate why.

You quoted Matt 5:48 and said that you are perfected by following the Law.

You CANNOT be perfected by obedience to the Law. This is what the New Testament tells us over and over, man is NOT justified by the Law.

Rom 3:20 "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Only by accepting the shed blood of Jesus can we be perfected.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/10/10


Mark_Eaton: His teachings 1/5
Matthew 5:17-23, The Father/Christ desires to neutralize the pain of sin with His Law/instructions, teaching what is right and wrong!

But what do those who claim to be His people do?

Wipe their noses with His instructions and throw them in the trash, even you?

ONLY the VERY ELECT, some now, some later will begin to understand the fullness of His loving grace is not about JUST BLOTTING OUT OUR SINS, but ALSO to empowers us to understand and walk after His teachings and instructions, His Law of righteousness for our benefit.

How does the very elect keep His Teachings and instructions?
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


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Mark_Eaton: blinded 4/4
How is the Law of righteousness part of His loving GRACE that you and many others reject?

Man fallen from truth, and what is good: Him.
The Father out of His loving grace, gave instructions for man to follow until our full redemption takes place to prevent complete corruption and its pain.
Yes, even before His teaching, instruction/Law was codified/written at Mt. Sinai, man had them for their benefit!

The sin offering of Abel in Genesis 4:7 matches instructions of Mt. Sinai, Lev, 4:32-35 to perfection, especially if you know He-brew words!

Yes, because of His loving grace Abel knew how to obtain forgiveness and redemption, as shown by Abel's sin offering made according to His teachings!
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


Mark_Eaton: blinded 3/4
How is His Law of righteousness part of His grace for our benefit?

The Father's full grace:
1) Forgiveness of sin AND
2) Deliverance from sin, in part, by knowing what sin is, through the Law of righteousness.

Sin means "missing the Mark" of perfection.

By eating unclean animals u BREAK His instructions, so you suffer, the suppressing of your immune system and putting toxics in your body that overload, damage your system. This makes you susceptible to disease.

Out of love The Father doesnt want you to suffer sickness, but wants u perfect in health.

Would not loving parents give His Children instructions on what is good or bad for food?
How much more The Father?
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


Mark_Eaton: blinded 1/4
You confirm my opinion, that obedience to the Law is paramount to you and is likely REQUIRED for my salvation.///

No faith is paramount to me, because I gain salvation through His grace by FAITH, He has measured to me. And even more paramount my FAITH in the power of His cross and His Holy Spirit to help me walk after the Law of righteousness.

By FAITH, in the power of His blood:
1) The Father forgives me 4 the instructions/Law I dont complete perfectly.
By FAITH, in the power of His blood:
2) I'm united to Christ's righteousness so The Father sees me as righteous and without sin.

Should we have a powerless faith as many in the apostasy?
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


Cluny:

On many contentious issues, blogs quickly fill up and don't allow further replies - long before everyone has thrown in their two cents worth (and/or had the last word). So the same tired subjects keep getting rehashed over and over and over and over and over again.
---StrongAxe on 2/9/10


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Mark_Eaton: blinded 2/4

I tell you you need to know God's love, and you tell me I need to know God's Law///

I say, know the fullness of The Fathers love, have faith in the power of His cross and His Holy Spirit to understand and walk after the Law of righteousness.
Why?
The Law is holy, just and good. Romans 7:12

Does not the Father say be Holy for Im Holy? Lev. 11:44
Does not Christ say again?
You therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
How should we be perfect? By keeping the worlds ways, the apostates ways?

How is the Law of righteousness part of his grace for our benefit, that most don't understand?
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


Mark_Eaton:
You confirm my opinion, that obedience to the Law is paramount to you and is likely REQUIRED for my salvation.///

No Faith is paramount to me, because I've gained salvation through His grace by faith as He has measured it to me. And even more paramount is my faith for believing in the power of His cross and Holy Spirit to help me walk after the Law of righteousness.

By faith, for those instructions The Father forgives me because of His blood. And because of His blood,I'm united to Christ's righteousness so The Father sees me as righteous.

Do you hate those who desire to be in the likeness of Christ?
---Paul9594 on 2/9/10


\\ Judaizers is a term used by the Roman Catholic church to denote people who insisted on keeping all ten commandments.
---Francis on 2/9/10\\

Francis apparently thinks that the Roman Catholic Church existed in New Testament times, because this issue is discussed in Acts and Galatians.

Can he give any facts to support his claim here?

Moreover, ask an Orthodox Jew if all they have to do is keep 10 commandments.

Finally, why does Francis keep only 10 of the 613?
---Cluny on 2/9/10


Judaizers believe in following the law not Christ. In Scripture they heard what Jesus said, saw what He did and still they rejected him as Lord and Savior. In fact they did their best to kill him, but had others do the job for them. They never believed in the Works of Christ. They wanted to earn their way to heaven. Same as many here on line who speak for the law and never speak about the Works of Christ on the Cross. A person can speak to them until they are blue in the face and they will not stop trying to earn their way in with their works of righteousness.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


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Judaizers believe in following the law not Christ. In Scripture they heard what Jesus said, saw what He did and still they rejected him as Lord and Savior. In fact they did their best to kill him, but had others do the job for them. They never believed in the Works of Christ. They wanted to earn their way to heaven. Same as many here on line who speak for the law and never speak about the Works of Christ on the Cross. A person can speak to them until they are blue in the face and they will not stop trying to earn their way in with their works of righteousness.
---MarkV. on 2/9/10


Judaizers is a term used by the Roman Catholic church to denote people who insisted on keeping all ten commandments.
---Francis on 2/9/10


Judaizers are people whom wrongly say that the New Testament Law, being the Judaic-Messianic Law, is insufficient and that the Old Testament Law, being the Levitical-Mosaic Law, must also be obeyed in order to satisfy God (ref: Acts 15:1,24+ Gal.2:14 to 3:5+ 4:9-11,21 to 5:14). But Jesus says I give you a New Commandment and except your righteousness be more plenteous then of scribes and Pharisees (teachers and ministers promoting old testament law) you all will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees: Jesus did not say, Add my unleavened New Commandment to the leaven of the Old Commandment: God forbid, how could we that have come to regenerate in Christ, leave to degenerate again to be cursed in the Law?
---Eloy on 2/9/10


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