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Does a person who has more money have greater faith? Does a person who is poor cursed?

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 ---mike on 2/10/10
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Amen, StrongAxe.
---Rod4Him on 2/23/10


Shawn.M.T.:

You are right - we should never blindly follow any man, but should subject everything ANY Christian tells us (whether it be a preacher, prophet, evangelist, or blogger) to scrutiny. As the Bereans did, "checking the scriptures daily to see if these things were so".
---StrongAxe on 2/23/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, You advocate that these men/preachers are misleading, depressing & putting you/others in despair, but the Lord already told us cursed is the man that trust in man. Jer.17:5

We're to let our Peace return to us when we depart from these individuals, by SHAKING OFF THE DUST OF THEM FROM OUR FEET, while letting not our hearts be troubled, nor afraid. Matt.10:13-14, John 14:26-27

StrongAxe, Advocate instead for each man to diligently seek-out & strengthening their relationship with God's Spirit, in order to know His Will for their Lives, while staying Hopeful that His simplistic & contrite Word is always before them and listen for it, knowing God uses all things for the Good of those who Love Him.
---Shawn.M.T. on 2/23/10


strongaxe

yes, preachers should have wisdom but not all they say will set you free. sometimes you have to look the answers yourself bec. the answers you find can be better than what they tell you.
---jim on 2/22/10


kath4453

it is not mean. it is the truth. surely when people speak the truth others will get offeneded. I too got scammed & was in bondage. these televangelist does not teach about what proverbs say that hard work, skills, knowledge of your job will in a way help you to succeed. but they pick out verses that say 'god will do all the work for you'. there is nothing wrong with money or success but it is how you use them. we are expected to be good managers of what we are given. we have the responsibility to multiply our skills, talents, & knowledge so we can pass it on to others who are in need.
---jim on 2/22/10




pt 1
after adam was created, god instructed adam the fruits that he can pick. in the book of ruth, she did her part in gleaning the grains.
we have to do our part if we are striving for success. in the book of proverbs, we are instructed to sharpen our skills, to work hard bec. it brings profit, to have knowledge of our jobs. that is an overview of sowing & reaping. when a farmer sow abundantly, he will reap abundantly.
god wants us to grow in our skills & knowledge so we do not end up receiving food stamps
---jim on 2/22/10


kathr4453:

I wasn't talking about people who want to be rich, and have yachts and palaces. I was talking about seniors on fixed incomes who are struggling to just have food on the table (besides cat food), and a roof over their heads.

You say older people ought to have wisdom. While that's true, isn't it even MORE true that preachers of God's word ought to have wisdom, and that it's not unreasonable for people to expect that they do? And that when a preacher tells you something, he probably has good reason to say so?

If it is unreasonable for anyone to trust any preacher (and we should blame them for doing so), we might as well just close up all our churches, shut off all our Christian web sites, and worship in solitude.
---StrongAxe on 2/22/10


Strongaxe, it's still no excuse!

Those who have genuine faith whether rich or poor, young or old wont be lead away with false teaching regardless of their circumstances or age. Hopefully the aged (true Christians that is) will have great maturity in understanding Truth. They should be mature enough to be OUR teachers. Even the poor in this earth ( those who have genuine faith in Christ) KNOW they have the RICHES that are in Christ Jesus, not of this world.

We know these last days on earth, and those during the Great Tribulation period people will suffer great economic loss. We know there will be droughts, etc that will affect ALL. Were seeing much of this right now, EVEN in America.
---kathr4453 on 2/22/10


kathr4453:

Unfortunately, it's often all too true that the people who gamble their money on lotteries (or greedy televangelists) are those at the low end of the economic scale - those who NEED the money.

Imagine retirees on fixed incomes who find it isn't enough to make ends meet, with no way to get more. As Christians, we learn "The Lord will provide". And here comes a so-called "holy man" claiming to speak for God and to know HOW God provides - and can demonstrate from his financial success that he knows what he is talking about. Wouldn't it make sense for them to believe him, since he is more successful at activating his faith than they are? And who can blame them? Sadly, all too many fall into this trap.
---StrongAxe on 2/22/10


Shawn.M.T.:

I definitely agree that the Matthew 18 method (first take something up with the individual, then go with a few others, then to someone in authority, before airing dirty laundry in public) is generally the best way to go.

Unfortunately, one is often in a position where that isn't workable (when the first few options aren't available) - for eaxmple, such as when dealing with public figures, or when communicating with people on a forum where all comments are public, especially when there is no way to even communicate with the other person privately, or on web sites that provide no way to contact the maintainers, etc.
---StrongAxe on 2/22/10




jim, this might sound mean, but for years I really felt grieved about these televangelists taking advantage of so many. Then one day out of no where, the Lord said to me, why are you so grieved. Can't you see, those who buy into this are playing heavenly LOTTO, they give to GET....THEY want 200% back on their money.

Well, those who are Born Again KNOW this is not truth, and it is only the blind fleecing the blind. If any Christians get fleeced in this scam, then good. maybe they will have LEARNED something from it!

We all learn from our fleshly mistakes! Those who belong to the Lord will be the ones who SPEAK the loudest this is of the devil!!
---kathr4453 on 2/19/10


they (pastors/televangelists) know that it is the word of god (which means that if god says it, he does not lie) & they say that obedience is the mark of a TRUE christian. but there are exception to the rule. yes, they use verses in the bible as a way to get your money. as fundamentals think, blessings is the result of obedience, holiness etc etc.
sadly many believer are in bondage of that thinking that when you obey you will blessed. they don't tell you what to obey & what blessings you will receive.
---jim on 2/18/10


jim, I believe where you see Replacement Theology you will also see the false prosperity Gospel. These take the Promises given to earthly Israel and apply/replace it to the Church.

My friends, you often hear..If my people who are called by my name will turn from their wicked ways etc...is actually CURSING the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is not WICKED and NOT responsible for our nations problems. We're no longer of this world in the first place.

The Church is not disobedient earthly Israel under a Theocracy. Those words DO NOT belong to Gentile Nations either!!!
---kathr4453 on 2/18/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, We're all to be compassionate when sharing God's Word and we're to take the time first to Spiritually Discern what's being shared with us, before automatically jumping to the conclusion that we're being persecuted/condemned by others : and when we address our concerns, we're not to Murmur about it to the choir, but to address it to the person in question b/c that is where it will do the most good !!!

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 2/18/10


to katr4453

wow, you nailed it!!!
---jim on 2/18/10


One of the great delusions in these last days is the prosperity gospel/social gospel.

Jesus died on a cross to forgive our sin, not pad our wallets!

The Gospel of America is what Pat bases and judges all other nations. He believes America replaced the promises to Israel now becoming God's NEW chosen people and apply those promises to America or anywhere this false teaching has a stronghold. Just look how BLESSED WE ARE! Wrong!

Look at all those Christians suffering in prisons , around the world: China, Somalia, just to name a couple. Where is their prosperity? Why won't God heal their land? Because no such promise of earthly blessings are given to Christians today! Our blessings are IN HEAVENLY places in Christ....
---kathr4453 on 2/18/10


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strongaxe
you are right! not ALL suffering are caused by sin. ignorance & lack of knowledge result in missing your blessing thus suffering the result. or that blind obedience to wrong teachings will lead to suffering. another is injustice.
---jim on 2/18/10


ShawnM.T.:

What I have been trying to get across is merely this:

While some people's prayers are unanswered because they ask amiss, this does not mean that ALL unanswered prayers are because they ask amiss. While some people suffer misfortune because of sin, not ALL one's misfortune is because of one's sin. The Bible has plenty of examples both of problems that are people's own fault, and those that are not.

It is important NOT to automatically jump to superficial and simplistic conclusions - because not only will one sometimes be wrong, using such conclusions to erroneously judge and condemn someone can sometimes irrevocably damage that person's faith.
---StrongAxe on 2/18/10


No, No, No, No and No. Amen to the other POV's
---larry on 2/17/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, We were told there should be mockers in the last time !!

... and like I shared earlier, "we all could be more compassionate", but I ask you once again, Why did you start this discussion with me?? .... was it only to behold the speck that is in the eye of your brothers/Christian leaders ???

StrongAxe, If so then you should be discussing these things with them, b/c they're the murmurers & complainers walking after their own lusts, spoken of in Jude 1:16, who speak great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration b/c of advantage .... but with whatever judgment they judge, they shall be judged, and with whatever measure they mete, it shall be measured to them again.

Good Day
---ShawnM.T. on 2/17/10


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Shawn.M.T:

I agree one must understand the meat of God's word. However, many Christian leaders are all too quick to judge spiritual lives based on external circumstances:
1. "You are sick: you must have little faith"
2. "You are poor: you must have little faith"
3. "Natural disaster destroyed your home: you must be in great sin"
4. "Born crippled: you or your parents must be sinners"

Faith+Prosperity teachers teach 1+2 (2 would mean Jesus had less faith than most of us!)
Modern evangelists often believe 3 (Pat Robertson on Katrina and Haiti, Jerry Falwell on 9/11)
The Apostles believed 3 and 4, and Jesus had to correct them (Tower of Siloam, Man Born Blind)
---StrongAxe on 2/17/10


-- Nana :

Brother, I thought you were saying that James 4:3 WAS a prayer !!



--- StrongAxe :

Brother, While we all could be more compassionate : If the Meat of God's Word is not Heard it can come across as "holier than thou", but when it's Spiritually Heard, it is Comforting & Supportive at the same time, and the enlightenment of Understanding is soon to follow. Job 28:28

The effectiveness of a persons ability to Hear the Spiritually Discerned Truth, has nothing to do with the Faith of the individual sharing the Word, but with the EARS of the person listening !!!

StrongAxe, If you weren't looking for compassion or understanding for yourself, then why did you start this discussion with me??
---Shawn.M.T on 2/17/10


-- Nana :

Brother, Even a pious prayer can be consumed upon our lust, pride, rage, greed, envy, fear & even slothfulness : I.E. when asking for healing !!

God chastens His Children, to open our eyes & make us aware of these thing in our Lives b/c blessing & cursing proceed out of the same mouth but these things ought not to be so : they keeps us from obtaining/maintaining.

Every man is tempted, when he is enticed & drawn away of his own lust, and lust conceived brings forth sin which when finished brings forth death to that temporal thing asked of the Lord ... and is why ye ask amiss(possible unknowingly), but the Lord knows it will be consumed upon our lusts : and is looking to make us aware of this as well.
---Shawn.M.T. on 2/17/10


Luke 18:35-43

the blind man cried out for healing, but the crowd said SHUT UP!

luke 18:42 And Jesus said to him, Receive your sight! Your faith ([b]your trust and confidence that spring from your faith in God) has healed you.

people have faith but there are hindrances to that request like people objecting, pointing to sin & basically being an obstacle.
---mike on 2/17/10


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ShawnM.T.:

I was not speaking of myself, I was referring to the many people who pray, but do not have their prayers answered - and rather than providing any support or consolation, some who call themselves Christians take the "holier than thou" pose and blame the failed prayers on those peoples' sin or unbelief, even though there might be other factors at work.

When Jesus came to his hometown, he could work no miracles because of THEIR unbelief - however, if one merely looked at the situation superficially, one might have accused Jesus's ineffectiveness there on HIS lack of faith - and been dead wrong in doing so.
---StrongAxe on 2/17/10


Pat robertson's comment on haiti was an example of this concept. he said that haiti was in poverty (bec of their deal with the devil) while the next country dominican republic is blessed.
and in the book of malachi - when you give your tithe, it promises that 'the doors of heaven will open & you will not have any room to contain it'. plenty of believers hold on to that promise - believing / trusting. but when it does not work for them, preachers would say 'ye lack faith'.
---mike on 2/16/10


Shawn.M.T. on 2/14/10 addressed "prayer", StrongAxe did also on the same date, what is the big deal if I use it?
It makes no difference where is to be consumed and James is indeed saying, "that the prayer is derived from or lustfully wrong".
James 1:14_15.
---Nana on 2/16/10


To answer the blog question,
NO a person who has more money does not have faith greater than a person who is poor.
And just because a person is poor doesn't mean they don't have plenty of faith.

I think this is more of a good steward question.
If you have money, are you doing what God tells you to do with it? Are you a cheerful giver and expect nothing in return. Do you understand that your riches and glory here are just temporary and that the real ones are stored up in heaven?
Also, Jesus said that the least here would be the greatest in heaven.
---miche3754 on 2/16/10


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-- StrongAxe :

Brother, Wide is the gate and broad is the way false prophets will set you on, leading to destruction : and this discussion is growing into a maelstrom, and we need to keep it on the straight & narrow(Matt.7:13-15), b/c that is how we enter.

When it comes to our Spiritual Walk, only we can pick up & carry our own cross by the strength of the Lord and follow Him. No other man can do it for us nor need teach us. 1 John 2:26-28

StrongAxe, If you're feeling others are filling you will despair, guilt & fear of rejection, then you need to remember(just like Job) to forgive & pray, and continue on your Spiritual Walk in the Lord with Hopes of Faith in His Promises.

Good Day
---ShawnM.T. on 2/16/10


ShawnM.T.:

Yes, that is true.

However, if one also believes John 16:23:
"And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you."
when one's reasonable prayers go unanswered, one can conclude that one is thus not part of "you" here - one is on the outside, not part of the saved, the body of Christ.

This is like the message from "faith" teachers who say "if your prayer was not answered, your faith must be too weak" - fill people with despair and guilt, fearing God has rejected them. This is clearly NOT the message of Christ, yet some give this impression, whether intentionally or not.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, I doubt as well people dying from cancer and other painful ailments take any comfort in being told that their prayers for healing are unanswered b/c their desires to be healed are lustful and inappropriate.

... and if you had been listening to what I've been sharing, then you would've realized that yourself, b/c you're preaching to the choir !!!

StrongAxe, If you wish to Comfort them instead of leading them to Understand the Word of God, then share with them Luke 9:23-25 and let them know that whosoever loses his life for Christ sake, the same shall Save it : and that means not clinging to this World, but looking forward to the next, when the time comes that the Lord calls you.
---ShawnM.T. on 2/15/10


Shawn.M.T:

I doubt that people dying from cancer and other painful ailments take any comfort in being told that their prayers for healing are unanswered because their desires to be healed are lustful and inappropriate.
---StrongAxe on 2/15/10


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-- Nana :

Brother, Once again ~ "Ye ask, and receive not, b/c ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts", is not a PRAYER. Its not even a request or wish, nor is it a petition to God !!!

James 4:3 is a STATEMENT, as to what keeps us from obtaining what we pray for/ask.

Nana, Were you originally on 2/14/10 sharing that James made the statement in James 4:3 b/c "the prayer was wrong to begin with", and that's why the person praying was unable to receive what they asked from the Lord??

... b/c if so that's not what James was sharing. James is not stating that the prayer is derived from or lustfully wrong. He's stating that it will be consumed upon our lust, and is why we didn't receive it.
---Shawn.M.T on 2/15/10


Shawn T, you are correct. It is not a prayer but does talk about how they pray. It is a statement concerning their evil conduct. The passage is refering that they are acting in an evil manner, motivated by personal gratification and selfish desire. Unbelievers seek things for their own pleasures, not the honor and glory of God. And even goes on, on v.5 to say, Adulterers and adultereress, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? This statement to the Jews, in the Old Testament many times adulterers and adultereress describes unfaithful Israel as a spiritual harlot (2 Chr. 21:11,13, Jer. 2:20, 3:1,6,8,9, Ezek. 16:26-29, Hos. 1:2, 4:15, 9:1).
---MarkV. on 2/15/10


Prayer (noun1)
1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish

Prayer (noun2)
: one that prays : supplicant

Supplicate

1 : to ask humbly and earnestly of
2 : to ask for earnestly and humbly

"Brother, How is James 4:3 wrong??"

James is not wrong. Whom prays or requests as He says, he is wrong.
---Nana on 2/15/10


-- Nana :

Brother, How is James 4:3 wrong?? You should know though, it's not a prayer. It's a statement : of whence come wars & fighting among us, but of our lust that wars in our members which keeps us from obtaining what we ask.
---Shawn.M.T. on 2/15/10


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Mike, there is no way to tell which of the two has more faith. And the person who is poor is not cursed. He is just poor. He could have more faith then the one who is rich, or may have less. Faith has nothing to do with having money. Faith is about Trust in God. Saving faith has to do with the heart. If our heart is for God? Then we have the most important thing we could have, complete dependence on the Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 2/15/10


James 4:3: "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
The prayer is wrong to begin with.
---Nana on 2/14/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, James 4:3 is not sharing that the prayer is derived from lust. It's stating that it will be consumed upon our lust/pride/fear/rage..etc.

It just may be a matter of Patience, and you shall receive your prays in God's Time : but whatever it may be, it will only be revealed by His Holy Spirit. So don't waste time proclaiming & listening for how pious a prayers may be. Pray instead & humbly listen for what is keeping you from receiving what you've asked of the Lord.

StrongAxe, Our tribulations lead to increased Faith when Patience has her perfect works, seeing how Faith is the substance of things Hoped for ... and Hope is where Patience leads us, so we may be wanting of nothing !!
---Shawn.M.T on 2/14/10


ShawnM.T.:

Sure that certain kinds of prayers are products of lust - for example "make me more beautiful" or "make me rich".

But what kind of carnal lusts lead to prayers like "help me feed my family" or "heal my sickness" or "increase my faith"?
---StrongAxe on 2/14/10


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This concept of having "more money" has been greatly promoted in American society. "Whoever has the most when they die wins." "The American Dream" of owning a house and three cars, pools, etc.

In Old Testament Jewish society, the land reverted back to the orgininal owner every 50 years, although they never did it. They also let the land rest every seventh year. Giving the land back and resting every seventh year would have kept their focus on YWHW. It would have been hard to ever "get rich," in America's sense of getting rich.

Jesus had no where to lay His head. Hmm...
---Rod4Him on 2/14/10


-- StrongAxe :

Brother, 'Lust' like the other 6 Deadly Sins(Fear, Pride, Rage...etc) keep us from receiving what we ask. Where it lies in our Life will only be revealed by strengthening our relationship with God's Spirit.

The Lord Chastens His Children, knowing tribulations worketh Patience, and Patience, Experience, and Experience, Hope. So, The Lord is not leaving us Hopeless : He's bringing us unto Hope, that we through Hope may be perfected wanting nothing. Rom.5:3:4 ~ 8:24

StrongAxe, There's a season & time to every purpose. So, These things will not always be as they are, but shall pass : As was for Job, who was Strengthen and refined by his season of trials & tribulation.

Prayers & God Bless
---ShawnM.T. on 2/13/10


poor in finances or poor in SPIRIT?

nothing in Holy Word of God TIES faith to money

religious christianity likes to pervert money ...money is a tool ...the love of money makes it your God and it uses YOU - it becomes your God

money in the hands of people who LOVE people USE money (the tool) to do much good for people

sadly religious christianity PERVERTS Gods Holy Word and many are duped into believing a life lived in poverty is a greater "christian" life than those with riches ...as heard on many pulpits of Preachers every suns-day condemning those with riches

TRY living here in America WITHOUT money and barter for the goods and services required to live
---Rhonda on 2/13/10


Shawn.M.T:

How many Christians live in poverty, sickness, sin (see recent preacher scandals) - a great MANY (if not the majority) of Christians live lives of hopelessness. There is surely something wrong with this picture!

While some prayers that clearly selfish ("give me a new Mercedes"), and others can be misused (for money, that can be spent equally easy on bread as on alcohol), many prayers cannot be used for frivolous pursuits (i.e. "that ye may consume it upon your lusts"), yet still go unanswered.

For example, "give me a job so I can feed my children", or "heal me of my illness so I can take care of my family", etc. How can that verse apply to such prayers?
---StrongAxe on 2/13/10


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--StrongAxe :

Brother, Why so cryptic? I'm really not sure what answers you're taking about, but to simply answer without speculation the OBQ : Being cursed or Great Faith, has nothing to do with money or the lack there of !! ... and as far as "many ask & yet do NOT receive".

"Ye ask & receive not, b/c ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts". Now what that lust may be, is revealed to each individual as they diligently seek-out & strengthening their relationship with God's Spirit.

StrongAxe, This may sound like a simplistically easy & contrite answer, but it's the Word of God ... and those who believe that His Grace is not Sufficient are the ones who live lives of Hopelessness !!
---Shawn.M.T on 2/13/10


ShawnM.T.:

Many ask and yet do NOT receive - so there is something that is missing.

It is overly simplistic to give simplistic and trite answers to this, such as "oh, you do't have enough faith" or "oh, you still have unconfessed sin in your life". If those were true, then MOST Christians would fall into these categories, and would have no hope for anything. Jesus didn't die to make us live lives of hopelessness and despair, as such answers would have us do.
---StrongAxe on 2/12/10


-- Catherine :

/// anyone can have great faith in God if all they have to do is ask and they receive ///

Sister, You sound a little bitter : and that is what Christ told us to do, in Matt.17:20, having the Faith of a grain of mustard seed, we shall ask/say and nothing shall be impossible unto us !!!

Always remember "Whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" !!! Luke 12:48

Catherine, It is a double edge sword and everyone has their thorn to deal with : Poor & Rich alike. So, You may think it takes more Faith to do without, but it take just as much Strength of Faith to learn to do with all that God gives us, while staying in Remembrance to always still depend on the Living God.
---ShawnM.T. on 2/12/10


It takes more faith to do without, while you are learning to depend on the living God. I mean, anyone can have great faith in God if all they have to do is ask and they receive. It may not be true, saving faith, so be warned.
---catherine on 2/12/10


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Remember the Canaanite woman whose daughter Jesus healed?

No reason to suppose she was especially rich.

Or the Centurion?

Jesus said about the first that she had great faith, and the second that He had not seen such faith even among the Jews.

Note that they were both Gentiles, btw.

No reason to suppose that either was especially rich, is there?
---Cluny on 2/11/10


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, The 'Love' of money being the root of all evil, is why Christ said that it would be easier for a camel to move through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God !!

So, Money itself has nothing to do with it, when it comes to who is of Faith & who is cursed.

It's the Love of money which shall reveal & manifest the works of the flesh .... b/c even a poor man(though he does not have a lot of money) can still have a "Love for money".
---ShawnM.T. on 2/11/10


The bloggers are correct. It is more likely that the reverse is true. The poor are more likely blessed and the rich cursed.
---jody on 2/11/10


If that were true, Jesus would have to have been the most faithless person in the Bible. He didn't even have a roof over his head!
---StrongAxe on 2/11/10


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Paul shares, "And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content." (1 Timothy 6:8) In Hebrews 13:5, we have, "and be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'" I need to be content with whatsoever I really have in each relationship, wanting to see whatever is really true with each person, and doing what God has me doing to love every person. In His love, we have His own creativity for how to love any person. "It's not how much you have, but how much you can do with it." God is our Best of Everything. One minute of sharing in God's love with a real lady of Jesus does me more good than a billion universes of gold and silver could (c:
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/11/10


Who had greater faith: Lazarus or the Rich Man?

And how about the Rich Young Ruler whom "Jesus loved," according to the Gospels?
---Cluny on 2/11/10


That is the general belief tendency, but, is not the truth. Many times people with lots of money/posessions will have a harder time trusting in God when they have so many resources at their disposal. Being "poor" materially doesn't make one less faithful or indicate that. Poor people have more need "usually" to trust in the Lord. No matter the financial condition of a person, it is whats in the heart that matters most.
---tommy7376 on 2/10/10


--- Mike :

Brother, The quick answer is NO !!!

When it comes to who is of Faith & who is cursed, renew your mind from looking at the tangible value of ones monetary existence in this world and think only in the Spirit of who is "Dead to sin" through receiving Christ and who is still "Dead in sin" through not receiving Him.
---Shawn.M.T on 2/10/10


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