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United States Become Socialistic

Will the United States adopt the same type of Socialism that Europe has?

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 ---Donna66 on 2/14/10
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I still want to know how two newspapers, a county clerk and hospital conspired to create a phony birth announcement from a single white female in 1960 who's son might become president 47 years later?

I can't stop laughing.

The birthers-using ignorance as a privacy hedge for hate.
---larry on 3/4/10


Trav,

Why the focus on "Sodomites/Pervs" are you personally conflicted on this matter?
---atheist on 3/3/10


>No, it is the Socialist seekers that would like people to think truthers are being rejected.

I was recalling a news editorial about conservatives who were rejecting the brithers and the tea party movement because it made the GOP look like a bunch of nuts and they didn't want to lose the next election--which is what will happen if this kind of nonsense continues. BTW, Glen Beck (who is not a socialist) also disowns and ridicules the claim.
---djconklin on 3/2/10


I agree the birth certificate is a small thing now compared to other things happening.

Why are born alive babies being murdered with presidential approval?

Answer these questions and a lot of people will forget about the birth certificate.
---Elder on 3/1/10

Yet the avoidance/overlooking of one small thing, legitimacy...has led to death,legitimizing corrosive perversion,socialistic slavery of this country. We've nationally rewarded/awarded an evil with good.

Psalm 119:141
I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.

Proverbs 17:13
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.
---Trav on 3/2/10


"Even the conservatives are rejecting birthers."
djconklin
No, it is the Socialist seekers that would like people to think truthers are being rejected.
I agree the birth certificate is a small thing now compared to other things happening.
75% of Americans don't want this "health care" plan as it is, yet it is being shoved down our throats. Why? Why is Social Security health care being cut as we write if the care is really about people and their needs? Why are born alive babies being murdered with presidential approval?
Answer these questions and a lot of people will forget about the birth certificate.
---Elder on 3/1/10




"Even the conservatives are rejecting birthers."
djconklin
No, it is the Socialist seekers that would like people to think truthers are being rejected.
I agree the birth certificate is a small thing now compared to other things happening.
75% of Americans don't want this "health care" plan as it is, yet it is being shoved down our throats. Why? Why is Social Security health care being cut as we write if the care is really about people and their needs? Why are born alive babies being murdered with presidential approval?
Answer these questions and a lot of people will forget about the birth certificate.
---Elder on 3/1/10


>...a illegal alien, Born in Kenya, a citizen on Indonesian and a moslem with a multicutural background.
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/26/10

Even the conservatives are rejecting birthers.
---djconklin on 3/1/10


...a illegal alien, Born in Kenya, a citizen on Indonesian and a moslem with a multicutural background.
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/26/10

Jim, you are on a supposedly Christian blog site. Your antagonist poser defenders don't care if he lied. They should care that he is an abortion proponent. The he has furthered the cause of the Sodomites/Pervs in every way possible. Once again we find they don't care. Why throw pearls. The poserites are as given over as the poser is.
Ephesians 4:19
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
---Trav on 2/28/10


...this corrupt usurper
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/26/10

I do not understand. What did he "usurp"?
There was no revolution. We live in a democracy, and he won a democratic election fair and square.

Maybe you would prefer living in some other type of society since you do not believe in the democratic election process.

What people like you need to realize is found in scripture where it says "The king's heart is in the hands of the Lord." He may not be king, but I think it can be applied to all government leaders.
All you can do now is pray!
---obewan on 2/27/10


...this corrupt usurper
...after all he has all the power and our tax payers money to keep his BC sealed.
...So far he spent 4 1/2 million to get his Birth certificate sealed for the American Public.
...a illegal alien, Born in Kenya, a citizen on Indonesian and a moslem with a multicutural background.
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/26/10

Again, so wrong on so many accounts...

Ok "pastor"...

how is he corrupt?
Where is you proof he spend millions?
He was born in Hawaii, he is a citizen of the US and is not a moslem.

Ok, I will concede he is multicultural... so what?

It comes down to this Jimbo... WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? You cannot produce it because it does not exist.
---NurseRobert on 2/27/10




I don't "despise" the fact that people don't consider Bush "good guy". In my view he did some things right and some wrong. He did spend too much! Which makes it all the more remarkable that
Obama spent 3 times as much.


I was wrong (I did more research) on the history of the Progressive movement. It did begin in the early 1900's. Around 1912 Theodore Roosevelt (Teddy Roosevelt) formed the "Progressive Party" It re-emerged in 1924 and again in 1948 but was short lived each time. The "progressive ideals" never really died, but not all presidents subscribed to them.

our money is created from debt. And there ain't nothin' ... that'll change
it
. How very true.
---Donna66 on 2/27/10


Donna66,

I know you despise the fact that people may not feel Bush was a "good guy". And that's OK. As far as I'm concerned, NONE of them were "good guys", to include Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, ElBJ, Kennedy, Ike, Tru, FDR: et al. They ALL have furthered the NWO--according to God's prophecies.

Progressive is used to describe a slow process. Income taxes came about in 1913, alongside the Federal Reserve: which taxes were imposed in order to create a specific demand for FED notes, since these taxes had to be paid, legally, in FED notes. Convenient, yes?

It's really not complicated, once you understand that our money is created from debt. And there ain't nothin' any of us are gonna do that'll change it.
---BruceB on 2/27/10


And you never answered the question. What happened to your Jan 26 court date?
---NurseRobert on 2/25/10

THAT WAS NOT MY POST!

But if you're saying this corrupt usurper now sitting on the American Throne of power has been so-far able to excape prosecution. You're right.

It will be a hard to expose him for who he truly is. After all he has all the power and our tax payers money to keep his BC sealed.

So far he spent 4 1/2 million to get his Birth certificate sealed for the American Public.

I sure you Socialists Globalists would be thrill that we now have a illegal alien, Born in Kenya, a citizen on Indonesian and a moslem with a multicutural background.

A DREAM COME TRUE!
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/26/10


I want to vote God into office, and I want to impeach Satan!
---catherine on 2/26/10

I hate to break it to you, but you will never get your wish in this life.

Don't you know Jesus told his followers that His kingdom is NOT of this world?
---obewan on 2/26/10


catherine- wish your vote was the ONLY one!
---Donna66 on 2/26/10


BruceB
Obama has merely continued on with what every other Prez has: the 100yr-old program to screw the people... just as Bush 1 & 2 did.

Merely is quite an understatement. Obama has spent more (of money we don't have) in one year than Bush spent in eight!

100 yr old program is quite an overstatement.
When the 20th century began, there was no federal income tax, Government took in taxes equivalent to about 6.5 percent of GDP. Taxes were collected by state and local governments for services that citizens could not supply for themselves. Nobody at that time wanted to be dependent on the government for anything, let alone feel they were "entitled".
---Donna66 on 2/26/10


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I want to vote God into office, and I want to impeach Satan!
---catherine on 2/26/10


That is why your Mess-iah's Virgin Birth is register there.

His Mom knew that and moved there for that reason.
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/25/10

The "poser" has no ear of GOD. See Psalms 109 King David didn't let "posers" run amok forever. Pray with same passion you argue with amongst the non-seeing.
Exodus 11:7
But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Matthew 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
---Trav on 2/26/10


And you never answered the question. What happened to your Jan 26 court date?
---NurseRobert on 2/25/10

Don't worry. They have modern medicines now to help people who insist on believing in things that are not reality.

In the old days they just used to lock them up in cages. LOL
---obewan on 2/26/10


NOT EXACTLY NURSE!
He said it was in order and legal. ---PASTOR_JIM on 2/25/10

Wrong again, Pastor Jim, and on so many points.

First off, the Health Director for Hawaii is a woman, Dr. Chiyome Fukino.

Secondly, on July 7, 2009, She stated: "I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records (meaning his birth certificate) maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.

So, you are calling her a liar.

And you never answered the question. What happened to your Jan 26 court date?
---NurseRobert on 2/25/10


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In 1961 there was 4 ways to get an original birth certificate in Hawaii. An original document of any kind has an original signature on it. It is not a photocopy. It may have been signed yesterday but generated years ago.
In 1982 a 5th way came about. Someone could be born in another country and get an Hawaii original birth certificate 1 year after their birth.
The original vault/certified birth certificate is something different. It proves U.S. birth. Obama has never released this one. Why?
Hey, I don't know if he is a citizen or not. You don't either. But, why has the real truth never been released? I hope he is a citizen. He could provide the solid truth about it.
PS. I hope he is not mad at his grandmother for what she said.
---Elder on 2/26/10


Bet ya didn't know that being in debt up to your great-grandkids' souls means prosperity--did ya?
******

VERY FUNNY ...gosh darn how come it doesn't work the same for Mr & Mrs AverageJoe/BettyAmerican?

and double gosh why doesn't it work that way for the struggling small business owners??

gotta love government "prosperity system" that creates a slave environment via public education on to mega debt college expense then into organized slavery courtesy of corporate america to pay off the cartel
---Rhonda on 2/25/10


"The state health department (who oversees vital statistics) has certified it to be true."

NOT EXACTLY NURSE!

He said it was in order and legal. It is Legal in Hawaii to be a foreigner and re-register in Hawaii, Just as your Mess-iah did.

NOTE HE NEVER SAID HE WAS BORN THERE!

It is the only state that allows that, Mainly for the Japanese who comprise of 75% of its population.

That is why your Mess-iah's Virgin Birth is register there.

His Mom knew that and moved there for that reason. Then within an incredble 7-days later moved to the Washington. What a miraculous recovery from giving birth.

Must be the Mess-iah. LOL!!!!!!!!!
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/25/10


I have to assume we are talking about "official" COLBs. The one provided by the State of Hawaii was official, signed by the State Registrar with a raised seal. The state health department (who oversees vital statistics) has certified it to be true.

Of course, in their minds conspiracy "theorists" are never going to accept it.

Are you saying that people never fall back into old ways? None of us are perfect. With the strength of God, we all strive to do better, and THAT is the only promise I give.

NO, Obama is NOT going for old people. NO where has he said that. How do you prove a negative? Its like asking "when did you stop beating your wife? You need to show proof he said that.
---NurseRobert on 2/25/10


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"Obama has merely continued on with what every other Prez has: the 100yr-old program to screw the people... just as Bush 1 & 2 did." This statement made by BruceB may be closer to the truth than we can imagine.

There is actually an underlying belief in Washington, DC that the Clintons not Obama is running this administration.
---mima on 2/25/10


"an official, state provided certificate of live birth DOES is prove where someone was born." Nurse

Now you are adding to it. You used the words "Offical State provided." Please show me where you find your information that this is what was presented.
Next, in the Christian life denial is as bad as some of the acts we do. To blame humanity or "backsliding" is a form of denial.
The two questions that lead to behavior change is,
1. What did you do?
2. What are you going to do about it?
What I was saying about abortion is, this president is the biggest proponent for killing born alive babies we have ever had. Now he is going for old people. Please prove me wrong.
---Elder on 2/25/10


Rhonda,

You wrote: "...Obama cemented with his BOGUS 700+billion "bailout" plan."

To be accurate, the "bailout" was a result of collusion between Treasury, the FED, and Congress. Had Bush gone rogue vetoing it, Congress would have over-ridden it.

Ya gotta accept how things actually function in the real world, and how debt is used to create currency and... Voila: "prosperity". Bet ya didn't know that being in debt up to your great-grandkids' souls means prosperity--did ya?

Obama has merely continued on with what every other Prez has: the 100yr-old program to screw the people... just as Bush 1 & 2 did.

(note: politics is a futile endeavor.)
---BruceB on 2/25/10


Elder, yes, an official, state provided certificate of live birth DOES is prove where someone was born.

Are you claiming you did not apologize for name calling here on CN a few months ago?

That is NOT what I'm saying so please do not put words in my mouth. There is a big difference between apologizing for a wrong and "saying you'd not stoop that low again." Being human, I will "backslide" if you will. We are all works in progress, unless of course you want to claim you are perfect.

Obama can be glad....

Are you saying that Obama's mom would have aborted him or that the government would have forced the abortion? I would love to know where you get your ideas.
---NurseRobert on 2/25/10


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We are commanded to pray for our leaders, but we are more commanded to pray for those who claim Christ and are lost! Those that voted for Obama voted for abortion. Jesus said that before we were in our Mother's womb, He knew us! A baby is just a little baby that is growing in the Mother. It is not a blob until some, so-called, Doctor sucks it apart! It is a very profitable business, but God calls it murder. I did not vote race, I voted morals and life! Pray for those who support alternate lifestyles, yet say they are Christ's! We support the person, not what they may decide to do.
---virgil on 2/25/10


Nurse, Yes a certificate of live birth proves that someone was born alive not necessary when or where. A marriage certificate says a marriage took place but it too is not a legal document to prove anyone is married.
Are you claiming you did not apologize for name calling here on CN a few months ago? It is easy to ask someone to show where you did that when the blogs are archived. But if you didn't mean it, it is just as well to say you didn't say it.
Obama can be glad that there was not a president with the attitude towards live births that he has when he was born.
---Elder on 2/25/10


"Ah.... could it be because nothing of validity has been shown?

Of course he has, you just choose not to believe it.

What does a certificate of live birth prove?

Exactly what it says it proves.

I also remember you saying you'd not stoop that low again.

Nope, never said that (kindly post where I said I would not do that again), I do admit that my typing gets away from me, but being human, I still need some work..

As far as conspiracy nuts.. well, if the shoe fits maybe they (not you of course) should wear it.
---NurseRobert on 2/24/10


From reading his post I get the idea that "Pastor Jim" does not pray for the President of our country! Or have I missed something?
---mima on 2/24/10

BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ONE!

Should I pray for the Usurper Manchurian Candidate that seized our nation illegally?

Should I applaud the socialist coup!

Should I pray for someone who is in our country illegally. Sitting in our Government Temple acting like he's one of us. When he is an Indonesian Moslem born in Kenya!!!

What do we say to ALL the Men/Women that sacrifice their lives.

And ALL we ask is for his Birth certificate. I'll even send him the $15 bucks for it.

Their Mess-iah is like God,
neither have a Birth certificate.
---PASTOR_JIM on 2/24/10


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"Because NOTHING he shows them will shut them up." Nurse R

Ah.... could it be because nothing of validity has been shown?
I can show you a marriage certificate with my name on it but that doesn't prove I am married. What does a certificate of live birth prove?
But I must agree. He, the kill a baby advocate, has created more impotrant things to be worried about, like death care.
I still love the honesty of Biden, that one time. You remember he said, "Obama is not fit to be president." I notice Biden has never said he has changed his mind about that.
I also notice that you still like to call names like nuts and so forth. I also remember you saying you'd not stoop that low again.
---Elder on 2/24/10


Nurse Robert --Only a handful of people question his citizenship. Most people on both sides of the aisle don't care. They DO care about his policies.
---Donna66 on 2/24/10


There is really only one person who can quiet this. Why doesn't he? Hey, how does that look???
---Elder on 2/24/10


Because NOTHING he shows them will shut them up.

The birthers and other conspiracy nuts are going to come up with something, regardless of what he does. Every case they have filed has been thrown out of court. They have NO proof but still insist on this charade.

They don't really care where he was born, they just want him out of office and will try anything to make that happen.
---NurseRobert on 2/24/10


Adopt socialism?

America already operates as a socialist country although it has not officially declared this or adopted all of the socialist standards and "interventions" which are very broad

American government operates in an ABSURD amount of debt which Obama cemented with his BOGUS 700+billion "bailout" plan ....America is drowning and dying a very slow painful agonizing death - and there are no more life lines insuring many generations of children will be slaves to the irresponsible incompetent financial actions of government today - a government that largely operates OUTSIDE of its charter
---Rhonda on 2/24/10


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From reading his post I get the idea that "Pastor Jim" does not pray for the President of our country! Or have I missed something?
---mima on 2/24/10


"The Indonesian Illegal Mess-iah born in Kenya...
---James on 2/23/10

"Pastor" Jim... are you still trying to spread this lie? What happened to you sacred "trial" on 1/26 that was supposed to prove this????

Do you ever realize how you sound???
---NurseRobert on 2/23/10
There is really only one person who can quiet this. Why doesn't he? Hey, how does that look???
---Elder on 2/24/10


The reason so many jobs are out-sourced to other countries is a combination of increased Union demands
---Donna66 on 2/23/10

Just what unions remain viable today?

The good jobs I saw outsourced were all non-union. It was what Perot calls that great sucking sound.

I saw wages reduced from $17/hr to $9/hr in 5 years. People were told if you don't want $9/hr we will let Mexico have the work for less than $4/hr

The only thing keeping some of the work stateside is the government since it is defense work for jet engines.

Do the math and prove to me you can live on $9/hr! You call this good business sense? How many new cars or houses can we sell with low wages?
---obewan on 2/23/10


Elder-- These days "rich" factory owners are as likely to be Democrats as Republicans. George Soros, global financier and philanthropist, is the biggest donor to the Democrat party. No Republican donors are that rich. The old image of "wall street Republicans" no longer applies.

The reason so many jobs are out-sourced to other countries is a combination of increased Union demands and restrictive laws by the US government. American companies abroad pay less for labor and less to meet foreign government standards for buildings pollution etc. Has nothing to do with politics, it just makes good business sense.
---Donna66 on 2/23/10


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"The Indonesian Illegal Mess-iah born in Kenya...
---James on 2/23/10

"Pastor" Jim... are you still trying to spread this lie? What happened to you sacred "trial" on 1/26 that was supposed to prove this????

Do you ever realize how you sound???
---NurseRobert on 2/23/10


Obewan, you used to be part of the problem. Who allowed "rich Republican" factory owners to send jobs overseas? (Hint- Law makers.) Do Democrats own factories or businesss or are they all poor like Obama?
The problem is the US government and leaders must be reigned in. Tax on food, medicines, clothes, shoes and other necessaries. Spend millions on mobile homes. Store and sell em to the highest bidder. Buy $5.00 hammers at $50.00 and then throw them away. Rent Super Bowl ad spots to say nothing. Reverse mortgages that really just buy homes for half price from the elderly. Make people think you have their interest at mind.
Play the blame game while the country goes broke.
---Elder on 2/23/10


DON"T WORRY!!!

The Indonesian Illegal Mess-iah born in Kenya has produced Millions upon Millions of new jobs.

HMMMM??? Oh sorry, that was in China!!!

---James on 2/23/10

You can blame Obama if you want, but reality says we have "free market" capitalism.

Rich Republican factory owners play a bigger part in outsourcing work overseas.

I know because I have worked as a manufacturing engineer for 28 years.

I spent most of last year sending $17/hr. work to Mexico for less than $4/hr, and I trained a Mexican Mfg. Engr to do my job and got laid off in November!
---obewan on 2/23/10


2Thess2:1-4 says...Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him... that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.Rev13:8,9,16 say...All inhabitants of earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been written in the book of life... He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, or the name of the beast or the number of his name. This is a foretelling of the coming New World Order, which is not simply socialism but more akin to dictatorship. As believers, we are not to fear. Read Matt24:30-31
---kay on 2/23/10


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DON"T WORRY!!!

The Indonesian Illegal Mess-iah born in Kenya has produced Millions upon Millions of new jobs.

HMMMM??? Oh sorry, that was in China!!!

---James on 2/23/10


The speech that Glen Beck gave at the CPA Conference outlined where the USA is now and where we are headed if we don't rein in this gov spending. It was better than any state of the union speech I've heard. He was right on the money.
wayne5363.
---wayne on 2/23/10


larry- You say:
Under those wonderful words in the preamble only the elite could own property
The preable to the constitrution reads thus:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Where does it specify, or infer, that only the "elite" can own property? I don't find this anyplace in the preamble or the Costitution itself.
---Donna66 on 2/21/10


Donna: I am not pro-socialistic by any means. I also agree with you. My point is that I believe that things have progressed to the point that we will not see even a true Socialistic society although we are now partially Socialistic. I believe this Country, sadly, is going to completely fall apart to the point where it may become a dictatorship or who knows what. Christians will be persecuted, there will be famine, lack of resources and much homelessness. Crime will wean out of control and we will see martial law instituted.
---jody on 2/20/10


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Help! Which party,
--Took Social Security funds from the independent "Trust Fund" and put it into the general fund so congress could spend it?
--Eliminated the income tax deduction for S/S withholding?
--Started taxing S/S annuities?
--Started giving S/S payments to immigrants that hadn't paid into it?
--Promised that you would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of your annual income?
*If you answered Democrat you are right.
Now, why hasn't any other party overturned this foolishness?
Forced medical care is on the way. It is just to spend more money that's not available.
Is this country in trouble? Say "No" and go back to sleep!
---Elder on 2/19/10


larry -- nowhere does the constitution say that a black man is has the "value" of 3/5 of a human being.
This provision has to do ONLY with the CENSUS. When it was written, the slave population had increased dramatically in southern states, sometimes comprising more than 70% of the population. By including the slave population on a 1:1 basis, The South would have had all the representation it needed to out-vote the north on the slavery issue...indefinitely. The abolition of slavery was actually made possible because of this provision.
---Donna66 on 2/18/10


"Will the United States adopt the same type of Socialism that Europe has?"

We already have the same type of socialism--it's called a fiat-currency supported by progressive income taxes (that happened 100 years ago, just about the same time as Europe.) We've got plenty of entitlements on which to waste all our resources, too.

What's left to socialize: medicine? We oughta just finish the job: 'cause when all else fails (voting, courts, legislature, etc), will the 2nd Amendment kick in? How much blood are we willing to spill to avoid having everything we used to "own", redistributed? Very little, I'd guess.

BTW: Member-states of the EU are no longer sovereigns. Our States are somehow different? LOL
---BruceB on 2/18/10


The United States will become Communist and thus under the umbrella of the Anti-Christ's New World Order. America did not want GOD to lead her, she will, then, come under the leadership and the occultic authority of the Anti-Christ.
---Gordon on 2/18/10


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Alan, is it a lie to state that Obama is a Marxist, or is it simply an opinion? You need to be able to tell the difference. Nobody can really prove for certain whether he is or isn't. There are people on here who proclaim unequivocally that Bush knew there were no WMDs and lied about it to start a war. Has Bush admitted to doing that, because I missed it. If that is somebody's opinion that's one thing. If they are "peddling" a lie as fact, I'll let God worry about it. It is He they will answer to.

And yes, a centralized, nationalized, healthcare system run by the Federal government from Washington DC which forces participation of every citizen is absolutely against the founding principles of the USA. Medicare included.
---ralph7477 on 2/18/10


Who taught/teaches, the abolition of personal property, marriage and the family, state government, then advocates equal distribution of wealth, graded income tax, gun control, compulsory education, classless society and the welfare state?
Who uses the news media and the Universities/Colleges/Schools to propagate their agenda? Who says take God out of school, Military and general public life? Who says all life is not important?
Who teaches these things today?
Is it Carl Marx or Barrack Obama? Is it the Democrat or Republican or a mix of both parties?
Is this something you want or someone else wants for you?
Who says the USA is not in dire trouble?
---Elder on 2/17/10


Ralph, true but....
the principles this country was founded upon were different than the policies this country simultaneously practiced. Under those wonderful words in the preamble only the elite could own property, women could not vote, blacks were 3/5th's of a human, indentured servitude was still in practice and slaves ironcially were used to built our symbols of freedom such as the Capitol building.
However there was no social security, interstate system, FAA, NASA or taxes.
Good comments.
---larry on 2/17/10


Alan of UK --- You hit the nail on the head.
All are fine sounding "theories" when you read about them (esp.from their proponents). But none work as well as they were envisioned.
All are flawed in practice... all are open to corruption... man's sinful nature at work.


(As an aside, I too, want everyone to have adequate health care, but I believe it can be done without having a single payer system)
---Donna66 on 2/17/10


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Donna ... You're probably right, and most here, being from the US, did not face the prospect of being overrun by the Communist bloc, nor of seeing its evils close at hand.

I did.

Marxism is a good theory ... but falls down, becasue you can't get away from human greed. The Communist bosses built as much personal wealth as the Tzars had, and were more corrupt.

The Socialists who have governed the UK for the last 11 years have similarly used their power to build their own wealth, in direct contrat to their official egalitarian principles.

Power corrupts
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/17/10


Alan of UK -- A lot of people seem "young" to me! it's not a matter of maturity. I was thinking of people who weren't around when the Soviet Union was at it's height.
---Donna66 on 2/17/10


Ralph ... You are not one of those who has been calling Obama a Marxist, and saying that the USA is like Russia was.

But does it not matter to you that there are those here who peddle those lies?

Opening up healthcare to those who can't afford to pay does not equate to Communism, nor to atheism.

And does it really go against the founding princilpes of the ASA?

I of course speak as an outsider, & that's why I ask the question, not to pass any sort of judgment!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/17/10


Ralph7477 --Very good point.
What matters is that all of these go directly against the principles upon which the U.S.A was founded.
I don't think our schools even teach much about our government OR its foundation, including what the founders actually believed about the role of government.
---Donna66 on 2/17/10


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Jody ... what's "pretty" about socialism? It trains people to depend on government, not themselves, for what they need...and at the same time allows government to increasingly intrude into the personal lives of citizens. Without a "profit" motive, it stifles productivity, hard work and innovation. It may be preferred by some people, but Americans who value their independence and personal liberty might NOT find it "no problem".
---Donna66 on 2/17/10


"Unfortunately they aren't very knowledgeable about the differences between American liberalism, European socialism and communism."

It doesn't matter what the slight differences and nuances may be. What matters is that all of these go directly against the principles upon which the U.S.A was founded.
---ralph7477 on 2/17/10


>Those here who equate Obama's policies, and liberal views, with Communism do not sound like young people. They write as if they are quite mature.

Unfortunately they aren't very knowledgeable about the differences between American liberalism, European socialism and communism.
---djconklin on 2/17/10


Donna ... It's not just young people!

Those here who equate Obama's policies, and liberal views, with Communism do not sound like young people. They write as if they are quite mature.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/17/10


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Alan of UK--
The point I have been making on the predecessor blog is that Socialism as practiced in Europe is NOTHING like Marxism and Communism.

I totally agree!
A lot of young people here do not really know the difference between Marxism and and Socialism....both Marxism and Socialism are pretty abstract to them. Their idealized concept of life in Europe, I think, is a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence. If they aren't happy with their situation, they may see "socialism" as the answer to all problems.
It's not. That's the point I've tried to make.

P.S I tried to compare crime rates but there are SO many variables (property crime? violent crime? minors under 16 included? etc)
---Donna66 on 2/16/10


Jody, you say greed will destory us?. you're right it will, wanting what someone else has is what socialism is all about. It's called ill gotten gains.
---wayne on 2/16/10


If Socialism were to be the destiny of the US, that would be no problem. However, the destiny of the US is much more severe than Socialism. Our greed will destroy us. The crash we will see won't be as pretty as Socialism.
---jody on 2/16/10


Larry ... I don't think I would want now to change & live in the USA

But, is the UK crime rate less than half that of the States?

Ours has been increasing rapidly over the past 10 years, under the guidance of America's hero, Tony Blair, and his successor Brown.

"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" he said. Crime got worse.

"Education education education" he said. Education has got worse
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/10


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Yes Donna, Europe as an entity may be to general for this question. I would never want to live anywhere else, but its American hubris to think that some folks in the UK, Mykonos or the French Riviera wouldn't trade their lives for one minute in D.C. traffic.
For some in the mother country (England) where the pound is stronger than the dollar, crime is less than half the rate of similar size U.S. cities and their health care is both social and adequate why would they change?
---larry on 2/16/10


Donna ... I don't think anyone is saying that Europe is better than the uSA, and I'm sure it is not, just different.

Neither should we say that USA is better then Europe, and perhaps we should not insist that western democracy is always the best form of government.

The point I have been making on the predecessor blog is that Socialism as practiced in Europe is NOTHING like Marxism and Communism.

We who live in Europe have seen at close hand the absolute evil of these, and the enslavement of citizens ... and Mr Obama's policies have nothing like that in them
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/10


My point is not to reflect on Europe unfavorably. I'm just trying to figure out how many Americans have a seemingly romantic notion that life in Europe is better and runs more smoothly than in the USA and that we should model ourselves after Europeans.
---Donna66 on 2/15/10


The United States is not Europe. Maybe it's like how weather can be effected by characteristics of each location, yet can be very unpredictable. I'd say America is unpredictable while effected by unique things of the people, here. America is a younger country, too, using up her resources, plus jobs have been sold out to China, etc. If you put people out of work, these people can't be paying taxes to pay for government programs, and people out of work certainly can't help to pay for taking care of people who are without work. It's not that people just aren't being hired, but the work they could be doing is no longer available in the United States. So, this is different than in the Great Depression, possibly.
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/15/10


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Of course there are shortages in Europe. Waiting lines are not unheard of.

For example:
In a dispute between Russia and Ukraine, gas exports to Europe moving through Ukraine have been shut down, causing gas shortages from France to Turkey.

Rental Car companies,say that the economic situation which led to an availability crisis in 2009 has not eased, with shortages predicted in 2010 throughout Spain, in Portugal

In Britain last Sept. aggressive buying tactics by supermarkets prompted many smaller dairy farmers to leave the industry. The crisis drove many EU farmers into a "milk strike", with thousands refusing to deliver to conglomerates that produce everything from skimmed milk to processed cheese.
---Donna66 on 2/15/10


No, the U S will continue to be an Ersatz Capitalist society and this was solidified by the investment bank bailout.
In an ersatz capitalist society market profits are private and losses are public.

This is the anti-thesis of what is going on in Europe.
Its a different world over there where most could never imagine working 60-hour weeks and with two weeks annual vacation, nor could they imagine something as insane as a shortage or waiting line for H1N1 shots.
We'll never be the same.
Good question.
---larry on 2/15/10


Alan of UK -- Home ownership in both the UK and US is now about equal. (Interesting that homeownership is more prized than on the Continent.)

Remember the riots across France because young workers could not be protected from losing their jobs!? Poor things!

Last summer, piles of trash as high as 2 meters lined the streets of Palermo as garbage collectors continued to strike.
Feb 10
Europe's busiest commuter train line remained still strike bound for an eighth day.
Tens of thousands of Greek workers protested against government spending cuts.

Spanish taxi drivers blocked main roads to protest taxi deregulation. Land traffic to Madrid's main airport was at a standstill

The Continent is not a happy place,
---Donna66 on 2/15/10


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