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Unsaved Did Mighty Work

Matthews 7:22," Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Indicates that unsaved people did mighty works. How could this possibly be?

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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, Matt.7,:22 indicates the unsaved workers of iniquity only THOUGHT/CLAIMED they did mighty works in the Lord's Name !!

They were not of the Faith by which we're Justified & Saved. So whatsoever they believed or did in the Lord's Name, was not done/believed in Faith : and whatsoever is not of Faith is sin. So they were only acting in the flesh.

Those in the flesh cannot Please God. But we who are Save by Faith, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit : having the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His, as Christ told them in Matt.7:22.
---ShawnM.T. on 3/4/10


Miche, you tell me if you had said something wrong you would want someone to correct you. What do you think I was doing? You blaspheme the holy spirit when you speak against a brother/sister in the spirit. Do you know the penalty of that? You are not correcting him but condemning him and the spirit of God.
"but why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?" for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Listen to what you say. I don't say you actually are, but what it looks like is like a pack of wolf's ready to suck up the life of someone, no, were-wolf's since there is a change of personalities.
---mary on 3/4/10


Mary,

I was saying that we need more Christians like Alan. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
And it is not an insult to tell a fellow Christian they are committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
We are called to correct each other. If I had done that, I would expect someone to correct me.

Markv said the Holy spirit is in someone BEFORE they get saved, and that is not a true statement. The Holy Spirit is ON someone convicting them of their sin and telling them they need to repent and need Christ when a person gets saved.
---miche3754 on 3/3/10


Alan of UK -- I applaud your intentions! And your courage. Now it has shifted off of doctrine and onto who-said-the worst-thing about-the-other. Poeple are lining up on one side or the other. This must surely mystify (and perhaps turn off) those who aren't strong believers.
---Donna66 on 3/3/10


Mary ... You assume the other Mary was deliberately using your name ... but it's quite possible that sher was using her own name (it is after all not uncommon) in total innocence.

There have been occasions here where someone has impersonated another to cause trouble, but it's very infrequent.

I can't imagine either Miche or Kathr doing so.

So I reckon it was an innocent other person!

Expanding your name will probably save confusion in the future.

That's why I changed mine ... to differentiate mysol from the other Alan, to say where I live, and to give my penpal name so people can write to me privately if they wish.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10




Titus 3:9, "But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is sinning, being self-condemned."

Having a mature discussion is one thing, devouring one another is another thing.

As professing believers here, do we believe scripture, or do we ignore the inconventient parts and insist on being worldly in our attitudes?
---Rod4Him on 3/3/10


Miche, you say it is not Christ like to say something mean to a brother, yet you called him a blasphemer. Now you say we need more Christians like him. When you say such words to a brother or sister Christians are made fun of, by those who question why people even go to church at all or question there is a God because of the tactics people use here for not agreeing on matters of faith. As for my name, I could use mary1 or mary2, yet who ever is using my name all they have to do is use 1 or 2 also. Makes no sense. Michael, your comments are very well appreciated. I was sticking up for my name this time.
---mary on 3/3/10


By the way, I was applauding Alan in my last post. Not sure how that got missed out of my post.
Michael, If I have said something that is not biblical, I apologize for it and for offending anyone that it may have offended.
---miche3754 on 3/3/10


Donna ... Yes I put myself in the line if fire.

I have not intervened on the point of doctrine at disput between them

My concern was the way in which they addressed each other, & pointing out where misstatements had been made.

but when entrenched doctrinal disputes are involved, I suppose personal hostility follows, and even spreads to those who try to mediate.

My own silly fault!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


Mary,
Amen!
I have never questioned whether Markv was a faithful believer in God.
I have only ever questioned his doctrine.
That is all and I don't ever resort to name calling. It isn't Christ like. In fact to me it is sin to offend my fellow Christians like that.
I applaud for being the gallant man he is. We need more Christians like him.
I will say honestly, I don't think the other person you are think of did it either. I have never seen her do that.
Like said, there may be another "mary" we don't know about.
I think we should be careful when accusing anyone like that. Especially if we don't know the truth.
---miche3754 on 3/3/10




mary, and others
It is wrong for me to accuse others of things with only circumstantial evidence. Also, If I misunderstand what someone may have meant by their statement, my response will be misguided. We all need to reflect on what has been said, give opportunity for explanation, ask forgiveness, and forgive. In doing so, we esteem others better than we do ourselves, thus reflecting Christ in us.
I would rather not go into specifics of what I see on this blog, thus be judgemental, so I would like to ask all to each of us to examine ourselves to see if their be any sin that needs adddressed and humbly submit to one another in meekness and in fear so that God through Christ may also forgive us.
---MIchael on 3/3/10


Miche, one of you did that. And if it was not you then I know who it was. That is pure witchcraft, nothing godly about it. I have not supported Markv. I have question the tactics use here against him. I am the only mary who has questioned this tactics. They wanted to make it sound like it was me. I don't even have any opinion on God's grace and who saves who. Donna mentioned passion, yet it is one thing to have passion for Christ, and another to speak so bad about another in Christ because they don't agree. It is just pure evil.
---mary on 3/3/10


Alan of UK -- Did you really think you could mediate the conflict going on here?
Yes, you put yourself in the line of fire.
These people are very passionate about their beliefs and will never agree in doctrine.
---Donna66 on 3/2/10


MarkV ... I have not taken any sides. See now how Miche has responded to me!!

You say I have sided with Atheist. That's not true. I have NEVER been with Atheist. What I have done is to defend him against unjust and untrue accusations.

I've done the same with RCs. Although I disagree strongly with their doctrine and practices, I can't abide it when someone makes up lies about them.

As for your discussion with Miche, the issue you were discussing was (to me) so abstruse that I could not make head or tail of it, so could not comment. But I did need to let you know you'd been wrong in what you'd quoted.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


Mary,
I pray you aren't talking about me. I would not ever do that.
You should also realize that your name is very popular and you aren't the only "Mary" on here.
Perhaps you should add a number or something so you don't have to worry about something like that.
I have seen similar instances of this happening on here. It is just a simple mistake, and you should not falsely accuse people.
By the way, if it is me,I want an apology for being accused of using witchcraft when, from obvious other post, I don't.
I am rebuking you again for UN-Christ like behavior since the moderators refuse to.
---miche3754 on 3/3/10


This witchcraft can only come from two sisters here, and you know who you are. You use my name to make it look like somehow I do not agree with Markv. You will go to great extremes in your evil works.

---mary on 3/2/10


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Alan, I didn't say I wanted your support but that you didn't say anything concerning what they said. Which clearly tells me you are with them as you were with Athiest. You've picked a side. I hope that makes you happy. I have someone on my side, and that is God and His Word. For what I teach is God centered from beginning to end.
The crucial issue, is not you are me or them, the issue is whether God is the author, not merely of justification, but also of faith, whether, in the last analysis, Christianity is a religion of utter reliance on God for salvation and all things necessary to it, or of self-reliance and self-effort. I stand by utter reliance on God. I stand as Luther, for I cannot go against conscience.
---MarkV. on 3/2/10


It is not hostility, but you can think what you want.
He is blaspheming when he says the Holy Spirit is in someone before they repent.
I apologize if it sounds harsh, but it is the truth according to God's word. He says we must repent first, I didn't. Please don't argue with me about something God says. He says to lie about what the Spirit does is blasphemy.
I am not sniping at you Alan, I know you have a loving spirit,and I pray one day Markv listens to someone speaking the truth, even if it isn't me.
I don't ever say Markv is not a believer or a tare or anything else because I know he believes, there are just some issues with his doctrine that are false.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


Miche ... I think yuo have more than a grieved spirit and I do detact some hostility, and Mark has some cause to be upset, because you have on several occasions now called him a blasphemer ... now that's a bit more than saying he is mistaken!

Mark ... You to me "When you saw the insults even now, you didn't say a word about it" Well, Mark, I did, and Miche understood that my "You've got into a mindset of hostility to each other" was addressed to her as well as to you.

So I've now put myself in the firing line and am being sniped at by both of you ... for trying to make peace!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10


Ya'll just don't know how hard I am praying for him(Markv).
Maybe he will listen to one of Shawn's post about predestination and how it really is.
Maybe he will.
He has lee believing that God does all the choosing and man is just mindless and evil with no choice at all to hear God's truth and make the decision that God is real and repent and be saved.(see other blog)
How a person can believe in free will to choose God but also believe that God does the choosing is just a mystery to me.
I thought God had already finished his work proving he is God and that we can and should choose him.
I guess they really think man is just too dumb and stupid to know God loves them.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


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MarkV ... I have been trying to act as a peacemaker between you and Miche.

I have forgiven you for the lies you told in the past about what I had said ... worse than the mild "insults" which Miche has posted about you.

You need to realsie that other people can be hurt just as much as you

Peace
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10


markv, why are you so mean? All this time I thought it was the other way around. Now I see you are the one who is mean to others.

Just because others don't agree with you is no reason to say mean and ugly things to them.
---mary on 3/2/10


Markv,
At least I have not resorted to calling names. everyone sees your fruit.
You have so much strife in you brother, its a shame. That false doctrine has got you all twisted up that you refuse the word of God and speak with a forked tongue.
You love me but you insult me and say I'm not God's child? Okay. I'm still praying for you.
You know people are drawn to God by hearing words. The Holy Spirit is in God's word and convicts sinners of their sin, so they might be saved. But you hold that God chooses who he chooses and lets the others die.
You know God does not do that. You know man is not totally evil, it is sad that you just won't admit it.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


You've got into a mindset of hostility to each other. If you both quietened down a bit and thought, you'd see you are not so far apart as you think
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/10

I don't have a mindset of hostility, I have a grieved spirit.

We are very different, Alan.
Markv believes that the Holy Spirit is placed in people BEFORE they confess and believe Christ.
He believes that God chooses who he wants to save and lets the others burn/die.
Alan, you know these arent true according to the Bible.
Markv NEVER answers my questions with scripture, only his opinion. Ive asked where does the Bible say the HS lives in a person BEFORE they get saved, he never answered. Instead I get called names and insulted.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10


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Miche, I agree with your statement to MarkV concerning believing you have the Holy Spirit in you before salvation. MarkV refuses the doctrine of Justification. He loves Charles Stanley who would rebuke MarkV. Dr. Stanley believes in free will and whosoever will. MarkV believes him to be a man of God.

This is what has so frustrated me about MarkV's flip flopping here on line. Why curse us who also believe this, yet praise Dr. Stanly who also believes this too. Personality disorder? Yes, and the spirit of CONFUSION is on him.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10


Alan, I do not know anyone by that name. I gave my love and the Word of God and the Holy Spirits and all I got was insults. We are the body of Christ and when one hurts the others help. But here the others join in on the insults.
When you saw the insults even now, you didn't say a word about it. Not saying anything about it shows me you think they are worthy of been said. So now you tell me you want me to apologize not for an insult or slanderous remarks but for what I posted and corrected about a verse. You have got to be kidding me. Have a great day Alan.
---Mark_K on 3/2/10


Read Gen:1
---velma7693 on 3/1/10


MarkV ... Maybe I should have not put it down, but I corrected it the second time

It's a shame that when you corrected your statement you did not say you were doing so, and you did not apologise to Miche.

How was she to know that you were withdrawing the initial incorrect statement?
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/1/10


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Miche, I will not respond to you from now on. I have given up, and have had enough of your insults to me. you are not my sister. You are an imposter. My sister loved me no matter what. She did not insult me and she was a Jehovah Witness.
You, on the other hand should be my sister In Christ, someone with the love of Christ in your heart. But you are not. You are a fake. A goat in sheeps clothing. Please do not respond to me, I want no part of you. Enough Truth has been given to you, and you have rejected it. I dust my shoes off.
---MarkV. on 3/1/10


To tell the truth IS to love, Markv.
And from what I have seen you post over the weekend, You DO have something, evil spirit, personality disorder, SOMETHING HAS BLINDED YOU TO THE TRUTH.
You keep speaking blasphemy about the Holy Spirit being IN someone BEFORE they confess Christ.
You do realize that is a very false TEACHING, don't you?
I sure hope you do, if not, May God help you.

People confess Christ by the Holy Spirit being ON them, by HEARING GOD'S TRUTH, HIS WORD AND BY BELIEVING IT!
Remember that God has already done his side of it, all we have to do is believe it(have faith). You(Markv) act like he has to do MORE.
---miche3754 on 3/1/10


Miche, you say you love me and tell me I have a personality disorder. That is showing great love sister. If this is how you show your love, I want no part of that kind of love. I do love you as I have said many times, but my love does not require anything from you for me to love you. I believe you are a very sane person who has been taught wrong. The only reason I continue to answer you. It seems when you and kathr say something about me personally it is ok to say because somehow you both are exempt. But if someone else says anything you both get angry and began complaining. Different standards for both of you I see. But I still love you no matter your faults.
---MarkV. on 2/28/10


That is the thing Markv, I don't hate you, I love you.
And I do believe you have some kind of disorder that has you blind to the truth that others speak here to you. You refuse to receive God's word when it is given to you, and I pray for you.

Thank you Alan, again, for trying. Markv doctrine has him twisted on the inside that he won't receive the true word of God. He will only receive Calvin's version of it.

And Rhonda,

That post gets a BIG AMEN!!!!!
---miche3754 on 2/28/10


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Michael, you are correct, God will weed out the imposters. Final judgment will come as He has designed it, and all whom He has called will come to Christ and all who come to Christ will be saved as it is written. Nothing will change no matter how much man want to change it. It has all been ordained from the foundation of the world.
If one thing is out of the order of God, that one thing will take over as God for it will have more power then God.
---MarkV. on 2/28/10


They are liars, deceiving themselves and others, but not Christ. The key is in the word 'say' (not do).
Jeremiah 29:9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many.
Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
God will weed out the tares.
---MIchael on 2/27/10


How is it a man not saved can feed the homeless out of the goodness of his heart if he is totally depraved?
*****

Amen Miche

Many Atheists and other religious and spiritual people do much good - healing etc for HUMANITY ...many GIFTS of God are available to mankind however only those in Christ baptized with GIFT of Holy Spirit can qualify to receive promise of salvation in eternal life Matt 19:17

Matt 7:22 is not saying "unsaved" people did mighty works it states those who call themselves BELIEVERS (hence prophesied in thy name)

As Matt 15:8 confirms many call themselves followers of Christ will do good works YET CHRIST WILL SAY - you are far from me 1John 2:3,4 because they do not obey James 2:10
---Rhonda on 2/27/10


Mark & Miche ... I've identified that the word depraved means something quite different to different people.

Mark's definition is quite different from the standard dictionary. So is his definition of evil.

And then Mark finds it difficult to understand that "Belief and trust" is the same as "Faith and Trust". Se another blog for the discussion about this.

You've got into a mindset of hostility to each other. If you both quietened down a bit and thought, you'd see you are not so far apart as you think
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/10


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Alan, I know you and I don't see many matters of faith the same. I believe no one has it perfect with someone else. disagreements will always exist. But hate answers only give evidence of what is in the heart. Maybe its "my personality disorder" that Miche mentioned.
When I begin this journey I knew if I spoke for God and His right to choose whomsoever He wanted, it would bother a lot of people. I knew already what was to come. It does not surprise me one bit. Some will discuss Scripture, but the others will bring hell with them. So I am not surprise in what is happening. Eloy is right in many answers, when he says, that many will hate you for speaking the Truth of the Gospel.
---MarkV. on 2/27/10


Thank you Alan.
I am trying to play right but they are both being blasphemous when they say that the Holy Spirit was IN the OT saints, when actually, He was not.
He would come to them and tell what to do and they believed and did it.
I apologize if they can't seem to understand this.
They both falsely accuse just to prove man is totally depraved when man is NOT.
We have a choice everyday to do good or evil.
Neither one of them has even answered my question, If man was totally depraved, HOW DID Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc.. Find favor with God?
How is it a man not saved can feed the homeless out of the goodness of his heart if he is totally depraved?
---miche3754 on 2/27/10


Alan, I did put the passages that were mentioned by Mima. I don't believe any kind words will satisfy Kathr or Miche or for that matter Nana. Remember, I have a personality disorder and they are holy. I agree, I did put the wrong passage down but it was a continuation of one that she mentioned. Maybe I should have not put it down, but I corrected it the second time.
Lets get something clear, No matter how much Truth they hear, their bias attitute and hatred will continue. Just because they are sisters, and even that I doubt, the Truth has to be defended. I respect those who respect me. "He who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes"
---MarkV. on 2/27/10


Miche & Mark & Mima .... now, now children!

Mark ... Miche is quite right ... You were wrong to say to her:

"Miche, you did say this,

Romans 1:21 "but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."


Because she did not. At least I cannot see where she said it.

Why don't you all read what others actually say rather than decide what you think they are saying, just because you assume they will always be wrong?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/10


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Mima, no apology is necessary, you were right all along. You know I have said you are wrong a few times but most of the time you are right on. You have a few things that I don't hold for, but to me they are not essentials of the Christian faith. So they are none essentials and have nothing to do with salvation.
I have read almost every post you have answered and you have done a great job. Now that I said this you will get hate mail for it. Sorry for that, but thanks for your contribution to the cause.
---MarkV. on 2/27/10


Miche, go back and look at your statement on 2/23/10 here is what you said,

If man is totally evil, Mima, what about Noah, and Abraham, and Job, and Isaac, etc. etc.....
The Holy Spirit was not in the world to help us do right, so how did they find righteousness in God's eyes?"


Now please don't say you did not print this. "You said the Holy Spirit was not in the world to help us do right,"
then you finished with, "so how did they find righteousness in God's eyes?"
First, the Holy Spirit has always been in the Old and the New Testament.
Second, you said, help us do right. He does help us everyday.
Third, Righteousness comes by faith Heb. 11:7.
---MarkV. on 2/26/10


But you tend to give statements that are not true. And all Mima did was to confront you with it. Nothing to get all out of shape about. Now you be patient with those who answer. Pray for them as you have prayed for me.
---MarkV. on 2/25/10

I have only given statements that you don't agree with. Please don't call me a liar because you don't have the same doctrine as I do.
Mima made a false accusation just like you did.

I don't accuse you of saying things you didn't say and if I did I would apologize. I am still waiting on one from Mima and now you because both of you accused me of saying something I didn't say.
---miche3754 on 2/26/10


Tell me how David, beloved of God, was a murderer, and an adulterer, be the BELOVED OF GOD, without the blood of Christ?
How was that possible?
How was it that he was even able to repent for his sins, faced down in prayer, if he was totally depraved?
We all know that even though the Holy Spirit was in the world, it could not come to live in until Jesus came, died, and rose again.
The Holy Spirit could be ON a person, but not IN a person.
So, tell me how was it even possible?
God didn't GIVE David faith to believe in him. God didn't GIVE David a heart for him, so, how was it possible, if man is totally and completely depraved?
---miche3754 on 2/26/10


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Go back and read Markv, No I didn't post that scripture. Please do not accuse me of something I didn't do.

You know man is not totally depraved. We can't save ourselves BUT, we are totally helpless and complete slaves to sin. We can choose not to sin. The thing about that is if we choose not to sin, it means nothing without Christ.
That would be trying to work for one's own salvation and that just isn't possible.
If man were totally depraved, I ask again, How did the men and women of the OT find favor with God? How were they able to obey God? HMMMM, see if you or mima can answer that? Tell me how they did it?
---miche3754 on 2/26/10


Miche, you did say this,

Romans 1:21 "but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

So I think Mima was correct in the way he answered you. He is not picking any fights Miche. I am not either. But you tend to give statements that are not true. And all Mima did was to confront you with it. Nothing to get all out of shape about. Now you be patient with those who answer. Pray for them as you have prayed for me.
---MarkV. on 2/25/10


---miche3754 I believe you're mistaken.....

Of course the Holy Spirit was not indwelling them in that dispensation as he is indwelling you as a Christian in this dispensation.
---mima on 2/23/1

Mima, again, I didn't say any of this. If you look, I agree with you on HS NOT indwelling.
Please stop accusing me of things I didn't do. You are assuming too much again.
What was I mistaken about?
The HS could not be in people, and that is what I was talking about.
If man is totally depraved, how did these men find favor?
---miche3754 on 2/25/10


Tommy3007 -- I was thinking of all the people who are not Christians...some may "think" they are, some may have no desire to be.... but they do great "humanitarian" works. (Some people believe these efforts make them Christian).

I will never imply that anybody has "lost" their salvation.
---Donna66 on 2/23/10


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MarkV ... Thank you!

My profession (insurance) included making sure that contracts actually correctly said what the originators intended them to say. In so many cases there written words did not do this. In some cases I had to tell insurers that they were insuring things that were not insurable by law!

That made me a bit of a pedant when it came to the meanings of words and the structures of sentences.

But it's easy to write something, intending it to mean something, but the other person interprets it in a completely different way!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/23/10


Mima, you are correct. In fact the Holy Spirit did indwelled a few saints in the Old Testament but it was not the norm. John the Baptist was one of them. But it was not until Pentecost that the Holy Spirit began His new ministry, indwelling believers. It was the New Covenant promise where God was going to put His Spirit within the new believer and cause them to walk in His statues.
Of course you are also right the Holy Spirit was in the Old Testament. You are also right, all three persons of the Trinity have always been. Never has anyOne of them not been.
---MarkV. on 2/23/10


---miche3754 I believe you're mistaken. I believe the Holy Spirit was in the world at the creation and will be in the world at the end of Revelation. As to how the Holy Spirit was involved with Abraham and the others let us remember, that the three are one and one is representing the other two in any endeavor. For example Abraham cannot find favor with God except he finds favor with the other two. God the father God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Three in one and one in three. Yes our own free will brings on trouble.

Of course the Holy Spirit was not indwelling them in that dispensation as he is indwelling you as a Christian in this dispensation.
---mima on 2/23/10


Mathew 7:21.
First, these were people who did not depend on Gods' grace in order to save them, but in their own works, and so did nothing in his name. Second, who did the miracle(s)? Third, miracles, like salvation, are not based on ones' righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness.
p.s. Both the Old Testament Saints and Christians are saved through receiving Jesus as Savior - ones' sins being nailed to the cross. Psalm 73:24, John 8:56, 14:6, Romans 3:25-26, 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15.
2p.s. Simul Justus Et Peccator / simultaneously righteous and a sinner.
---Glenn on 2/23/10


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If man is totally evil, Mima, what about Noah, and Abraham, and Job, and Isaac, etc. etc.....
The Holy Spirit was not in the world to help us do right, so how did they find righteousness in God's eyes?
Please explain that to me?
It seems to me it is TAUGHT and learned NOT ingrained in us.
It also goes along with the fact that God gives us the choice to follow him or our own will.
It is when we follow after our own will, is when we get into trouble, don't you think?
---miche3754 on 2/23/10


He was referring to the people who think they're saved and walking with Him. I know a few myself, don't you?
---Donna on 2/22/10
If a person "thinks" they are saved, but aren't doing the things of God, aren't they "unsaved" or do you imply that they were saved but lost it? Judas was one of the 12, and walked with the Lord for the full time of His ministry on earth, but, the Lord called him a devil. He wasn't saved and did all the works of the other Apostles.
---tommy3007 on 2/23/10


This statement Genesis 6:5," And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually ." Seems to answer the question is man totally evil.
---mima on 2/23/10


Robyn, I was being sarcastic because there are those on here who really believe that man is totally completely depraved incapable of nothing but evil. I apologize for not being clearer.
I know that man is not though. I know that the light in the world that is Christ will overcome like he says and all men will know the truth eventually, saved and unsaved.
I know before I got saved I was a mess BUT i was not the evil person that someone on here would try to say man is and I know that most aren't like that. It just takes showing them the truth they are searching for in the first place before the enemy has them so blinded by false religions, they can't even see the truth. That is our job as Christians, to show our light and BRIGHTLY!
---miche3754 on 2/23/10


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More than once,I have been prayed for by an unsaved person and healed. I asked my Pastor how can that be? He said he didn't know. In trying to understand I came to this conclusion,it isn't the faith of the person who prays for healing,it is the faith of the person being prayed for,which explains getting healed in that way to me. It is the prayer of faith which moves God not the person. Alans view of the quotation marks is a very good point.
---Darlene_1 on 2/23/10


Alan, good work, as Rod4him thought, so did I. You brought to light something so important to that verse and after reading all of it, it makes so much sense. I have read it many times but never really took what you said into account. I always read it and moved on from there as many do and not check the whole context. Another eye opening verse.
I agree also with Donna66, that many do good charitable things but because of what Shawn T stated, without faith it is all sin.
---MarkV. on 2/23/10


Rod4Him If you want something in bold, type these marks < b >

Then type in what it is that you want to be in bold.

Then to stop the bold, type in these marks < / b >

But don't put a space between those marks. They will then generate the effect you want.

If you want italics, use i instead of the b.

Hope yuo undersand this, and can make it work!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/23/10


This verse is referring to anointed people of God who were saved, before/after Jesus Christ came to this earth. They cast out devils and did many notable works in the site of God or in the name of the Lord. These people turned their hearts away from the Lord and exchanged it for the vanity of this world.

Here are the Biblical examples: King Saul- prophesied, Judas Iscariot cast out demons and healed people too, Solomon- built a temple for God, and when he became old, his wives turned his heart away from God. King Hezekiah brought a great revival to Israel and many more. It is not the beginning that matters, but it is those who endure till the end that will be justified and inherit the kingdom of God. Words of encouragement: 1John 2:15-29
---Esther on 2/22/10


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Does a list of all the people you got to say the reputed "sinner's prayer" to get them "saved" count as a mighty work, mima?
---Cluny on 2/22/10


One of the reasons I like this ChristianNet is because of the things I learn. Alan presented the view that //... pay attention to the quotation marks, and you will see that this is what those people will claim to have done, not what they actually will have done.//

I've always thought that these people were in fact "doing these things." It makes more sense that they thought they were doing things in the name of the Lord.

The previous verse says, "..you will know them by their fruits." This refers to their behavior, not "ministry." Interesting.

Side note: Could someone tell me how to make bold and italics? I cut and paste, but it won't come out. thanks.
---Rod4Him on 2/22/10


It is quite possible for non-Christian people to do "wonderful" and charitable works...with less than wonderful motives. Even if well intentioned, these works, great in the eyes of man, earn them no standing with God.

After the verse quoted above, comes
Mat 7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.:

These people may be lauded and rewarded by society, but not by Jesus "who never knew them"
---Donna66 on 2/22/10


-- Mima :

Brother, That only indicates they THOUGHT they did mighty works in the Lord's Name !!

The unsaved workers of iniquity are not of the Faith by which we're Justified & Saved. So whatsoever they believed or have done in the Lord's Name, was not done/believed in Faith : and what is not of Faith is sin. So they were only acting in the flesh.

Those in the flesh cannot Please God. But we who are Save by Faith, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit : having the Spirit of God dwelling in us, and if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.



--- Donna & Miche :

Sisters, Amen & Nicely shared b/c it does go with separating the Wheat from the Tares that are among us !! Matt.13:30
---Shawn.M.T. on 2/22/10


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This scripture could have many interpretations. The churches of today do many mighty works, so do the pastors,teachers and other leaders who are over the congregants. But is what they do acceptable to God? What about the social clubs,competition among people and churches, little prayer and fellowship among God's people. What about lack of love among God's people? Disobedience and every sin imaginable, right in the church houses! God is not pleased with most of this outward show. I am almost certain. Many of these preachers and leaders are not even saved! You go figure. God will do the judging and separating. Not us.
---Robyn on 2/22/10


Satan can do many things, decieving many, example, Moses and Pharaoh's sorcerers, todays tv sorcerers.
---michael_e on 2/22/10


Not everyone professing Christ is genuinely saved. A genuinely saved person is one that doeth the will of my Father as the normal course of his life. He may fail at times, but his general course of consistency is to obey the will of the Father...."Many wonderful works" can cause people to think that they have attained salvation. Those who are continually living in sin, as the normal course of their lives, have no assurance of salvation whatever.
---catherine on 2/22/10


Mima: I agree. In fact it seems that all of the Biblical principles(reaping & sowing or even prosperity techniques)will work for anyone whether they are saved or not. Many New Age and Occult practices are actually Biblical but the power behind them are from Satan and not God.
---jody on 2/22/10


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micha3754: the unsaved are important to God,too. You must remember this : if u are a believer now, you use to be in the same position as the unsaved was. If not for God, we would yet be lost, and sinking in our sins.
Also learn this: the unsaved are sometimes more loving,generous and morally upright than many so-called christians. Please leaving the judging to God. As he has warned us many times. We don't have the ability,skill or know how to judge another. But for God, there go us. The best thing we can do for the unsaved is to pray and be an example to them. Letting our light shine before the unsaved can and will cause them to want we have. Jesus is in control of the rest. Be kinder and more loving toward others. God bless.
---robyn on 2/22/10


WOW Alan, I just really read your post. That was awesome!.

Kind of goes along with him separating the wheat from the tares to, huh?
---miche3754 on 2/22/10


I believe the key is literally reading what the Word says. The Word says"have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Jesus do not deny that they did these things. It is my belief that they did.

The power that is in the name of Jesus is not depend upon one's spirituality are one self-described holiness. The power in the name of Jesus can be used only by those who have faith and belief in the power of Jesus' name.

Said another way these people had more trust in the power of the Lord Jesus Christ name that I have(what about you?). Yet they were lost and undone.
---mima on 2/22/10


alan's response is EXCELLENT.

I was just going to say that Jesus wasn't talking about the unsaved.

He was referring to the people who think they're saved and walking with Him. I know a few myself, don't you?
---Donna on 2/22/10


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I know mima, I asked that question myself...
How is a person who is unsaved do "Good works" if they are totally depraved and incapable of any good at all?
---miche3754 on 2/22/10


Excellent Alan8566! The Bible makes it very clear about the inaccurate CLAIMS of "many unsaved people".
---Leon on 2/22/10


The Devil can only bring counterfeits to the real, through his people. If there is a counterfeit, then there MUST be a real to copy from. Satan has power to do mighty works, but it is NOT the real deal. Only God can bring the real, through His people.
---Leslie on 2/22/10


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