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Justified By His Blood

In Romans 6:9 we read "much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." What does "justified by his blood" mean? What could "saved from wrath through him" mean?

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The Scriptures already identified the two as Moses and Eliyah, so cease from dissing the Holy Scripture: "And here, there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said up to Jesus, Lord, It is good for us to be here: If you will, let us make here three tabernacles: one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elias" Matthew 17:3,4.
---Eloy on 3/2/10

earl -- I believe the statement ,"the fathers has eaten sour grapes and the sons teeth are set on edge". Refers to the belief that the next generation would suffer ON EARTH from the sins of their

Even in the NT this was a common belief. Jhn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

For most of the OT, sacrificial animals (not people) were offered as a sacrifice for sin.
---Donna66 on 3/2/10

Through Paul's atonement doctrine and the above scripture associated with it is believed by many that Enoch,Elijah and Moses was restricted from ascending prior to the cruxifiction.Paul says Tim.1.he is an apostle by the commandment of God to teach the gospel.In Ro.5.he teaches where one man sins and all men have sinned and get the same sentence- (sin transferance )until justification- .Now there is Ezekiel who is a prophet of God ,to teach as the word of the Lord came to him saying -(sin transferance is not so).Ez.18.God says never again say,"the fathers has eaten sour grapes and the sons teeth are set on edge".Contradiction -very much so.Is sin transferable -no.
---earl on 3/2/10

Ro 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Being justified simply means to be declared righteous in Him, not in what we do in obedience to the old written code (law) that kills but in accordance to the new life of His Spirit (2:27) given to those who would confess "with [their] mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in [their] heart that God raised him from the dead.(10:9)

Re 1:5 ... and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood.

Note the past tense.
---Lee1538 on 3/2/10

Who is to say the disciples were even seeing "men" as we define them on the earthly plane? Paul and other writers made it plain there were moments when THEY were taken into spaces of place where they couldn't pinpoint the environment..."whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not."
The disciples could have been experiencing a window onto the Heavenly plane, and seen Christ interacting with Heavenly angels, Moses, Elijah, who knows? What seems apparent, for God does nothing without purpose, that this mountaintop moment was a necessary step on the road to man's I see as a timeless spiritual typal of Abraham's sacrifice of his own son...for didn't the ram appear there, caught in the bushes?
---Elaine on 3/2/10

Who do you think the "two persons" at the transfiguration were? --Continued--

"Pay attention" Earl & you'll discover everything recorded in the Bible is truly said. But, everything recorded in the Bible isn't the truth UNLESS GOD SAYS SO directly or indirectly thru his chosen vessel, i.e., prophet, apostle, preacher, etc.

Did Peter, James & John really see Moses & Elijah? Apparently, they thought they did & later reported it to Matthew & Mark... How could they know the men were Moses & Elijah since they didn't know what they looked like & JESUS DIDN'T IDENTIFY THEM AS SUCH?

It's so easy to wrongly see based upon our assumptions about resurrection & ascension, etc.
---Leon on 3/2/10


This whole matter of resurrection & ascension is really about people's imaginative "assumptions". Like the disciples/apostles, many today assume Jesus was talking to Moses & Elijah. Yet, Jesus didn't acknowledge who the two man-like beings were. For all we know, they could've been angels. The only one who can say for certain who they were is Jesus! Thus far, He has not done so. :)
---Leon on 3/2/10

Amen Michael and Nana!

Christ IS the first fruits.

Amen Donna that the OT were justified by their faith. They believed God was telling them truth and it was counted to them as righteous because they believed, too.

Earl, the Bible tells us all these truths, why you disagree with what the Bible is telling you, I don't know, but the truth is right there, brother.
---miche3754 on 3/2/10

Earl: Who do you think the "two persons" at the transfiguration were? The Bible is full of wrong assumptions & actions made by people (the apostles/disciples included) so that a spiritual point (revelation) can be made by God. In other words, the only errors in the Bible are the ones made by well intentioned people of FAITH & non-believers. Throughout the Bible (Gen.-Rev.) God allows people to have their say before He corrects them. It takes God to accurately explain Bible truths & events to us all.

"...All one is required to do is believe in God. Abraham..." Yes Earl, it's called FAITH!!! (Hebrews 11) Moses, Elijah, Enoch, etc., were all FAITH-filled people who pleased God.
---Leon on 3/2/10

"17:10 Why then say the scribes, that Elijah must come first - Before the Messiah? If no man is to know of his coming? ---"
---Nana on 3/1/10
I believe Matthew is to Jews, concerning the Kingdom of Heaven John announced but was not fulfilled at this time.

John was a TYPE of Elijah who witnessed of the Messiah. It has been suggested that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses in Revelation who witness to the Messiah, the coming KING when he comes in ALL His Glory fulfilling where John the Baptist left off. Jesus could not at that time have taken the earthly throne until He first died and rose from the dead. And that what happened on the Mount of transfiguration was a vision yet future for Israel.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/10

Deut 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD
1Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept
1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Rev 1:5a And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead
Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
So, a person can believe these verses and still believe that it was really Moses in the flesh standing there?
What about Christ resurrecting first?
---MIchael on 3/2/10

It is not about resurrection and it is not about an 8mm film of Moses and Elijah that they saw, it was rather Moses and Elijah.
John Wesley puts it best:
"17:10 Why then say the scribes, that Elijah must come first - Before the Messiah? If no man is to know of his coming? Should we not rather tell every man, that he is come, and that we have seen him, witnessing to thee as the Messiah?"
---Nana on 3/1/10

Leon ,
True I did use resurection since it most common and it is in sync with Moses.However when it concerns a living person the term is ascend or ascention and the term for Elijah's ascention I use is fusion-"in a chariot of fire".
It is apparent that no one will say who the two persons at the transfiguration was.
What I am saying here is that pre cruxifiction ascentions and resurections are being denied by many here because this would put a leak in the doctrine of salvation only from Jesus' cruxifiction.Salvation was from the beginning.It was free from the beginning.All one is required to do is believe in God .Abraham is a excellent example..
---earl on 3/1/10

Justified by his blood means
---velma7693 on 3/1/10

Fracis, that was a great explanation you gave concerning those in the Old Testament. They looked forward to the blood of Christ with the animal sacrific and we look backward to the Lord's blood on the Cross. They were justified by faith. Good work Francis on that post.
---MarkV. on 3/1/10

P.S. John the Baptist even said he wasn't Elijah/Elias, i.e., John 1:19-23.

- As far as earl's "confirmed resurrections" statement regarding Enoch & Elijah, neither man was dead (hadn't died). Resurrection only pertains to people being raised from the dead.

- None of the apostles could've possibly known what Moses & Elijah looked like. Peter & the apostles only assumed Moses & Elijah were talking with Jesus. (Mat. 17:3) Jesus didn't confirm their presumption. Instead, he likened John the Baptist, in spirit & power, to Elijah.
---Leon on 3/1/10

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JESUS SAID in John 3:13

"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "

Remember there are 3 levels of Heaven in scripture. If there is only one heaven, Why did Paul say he was brought up to the THIRD Heaven.

NO MAN entered Heaven where GOD Throne is before Jesus Christ. Flesh and Blood cannot enter God's Throne anyway.

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/10

To say that Elijah, Enoch, or any one who lived before the death of Jesus was not Justified by His blood is wrong.

Everone who made a blood sacrifice did so in faith, that Jesus would come and shed his blood for them.

Therefore they are all justified by His blood. That is the power of Faith.

They did thier animal blood sacrifices, looking forward to Jesus blood who would justify them.
---francis on 3/1/10

Earl, Yes they did require the blood to experience new life. They were saved because they believed in the promise of God which we have because the Promise came- JESUS!

Didn't you read where the Bible says that
Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world
And Ephesians chapter 1!!!
All believers are in Christ from the foundation of the world because they have faith. God plan !!
---miche3754 on 3/1/10

I do not see it as a side issue.
Enoch,Elijah-two men ,confirmed resurections, who lived and experienced immortality did not require the cruxifiction of Jesus to experience immortality counter to many who say the blood of Jesus was the only way to obtain imortality.And,the apostles placed Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration .
---earl on 3/1/10

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Bereans in the house!!! Thanks Mark_Eaton. :) Great catches Donna even though earl hits a lot of foul balls & will continue to do so just for the heck of it.

What earl & other unbelievers fail miserably to understand is the blood of Jesus covers ALL faithful, believing people, OT & NT alike (past, present & future). That's what Hebrews 11 is all about -- FAITH!

It is written, "...the just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17
---Leon on 2/28/10

"He that has ears to hear, let him hear." Mat. 11:15

Elijah was "likely" the greatest prophet & one of the most colorful, outspoken men in the OT. "Like" John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said there was none greater born of women, Elijah clashed often with King Ahab. So, Jezebel (Ahab's wife) wanted to kill him. "Likewise", John clashed often with King Herod Antipas. So, Herodias (Herod's wife) sought & eventually engineered John's murder.

Bottomline: John wasn't literally Elijah. But, his zeal & spirit was "LIKE", & therefore symbolically "LIKENED" (figuratively compared) by Jesus to Elijah.

Naysayers: Ears!!! Mat. 11:15.
---Leon on 2/28/10

micheal e -- thank you. We got side-tracked by a discussion about Elijah.
It's a side issue. Old Testament or New Testament, salvation is based on faith. And the penalty for our sins has been paid by the shed blood of Jesus. Abraham and Elijah had no way of knowing this, but, I believe, they were likewise saved by the shed blood of Jesus because of their faith.
---Donna66 on 2/28/10

Donna,Well, 1.your last post was a question to me.2.You engaged in this post as I did .3.We exchanged replies to the posted question.4.You frequently returned replies.Yes I can see that the scripture is plain reading but you say the plain reading scripture is not so in that you state a vision-(subject to experienced interpretation),not a real and personal experience occured in the eyes of the apostles and not at their feet.You never replied to who was at the transfiguration thus eliminating futher discussion about pre cruxifiction resurections.Your last post indicates meby this ,meby that but you say I can read it for myself for my own answers.
---earl on 2/28/10

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question, what does transfiguration have to do with Rom. 6:9 ??
---michael_e on 2/28/10

nana-- If you read back a few posts you would find the reference. It is Matt 17:9

earl-- though Matthew is the only gospel to use the word "vision" all three gospels relate that at the end, the disciples saw Jesus alone. What happened to Elijah and Moses? There is not even a hint as to where they went. Nothing in Mark or Luke contradicts the account in Matthew. Thus I'll accept what Matthew writes.

Jesus' appreance after His resurrection is an entirely different event, not related to the one we are discussing.

Why are you bombarding me with questions about what the Bible says when you can read it for yourself?
---Donna66 on 2/28/10

If Moses and Elijah appearing talking with Jesus was a trick, an illusion, a make believe, what shall we say of the Holy Ghost descending like a dove? John is the only one who bare record. Jesus saw it, but if anyone else is not stated, and if the vision was not seen but by John, how about the hearing of the voice from heaven? Only Jesus and John?
Does not 2 bare a true record?

Now, if Moses and Elijah were make believe, the The Law and The Prophets whom they represent did not bare witness of Him. A witness must not only be true, must be real.
---Nana on 2/28/10

Moses and Elias (Elijah).
Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
How did Peter know who these guys were?
---MIchael on 2/28/10

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Who was the two persons,other than Peter,James and John who talked with Jesus at the transfiguration had lived human lives before the cruxifiction??
---earl on 2/27/10

Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
I didn't say it, Jesus did.
---MIchael on 2/27/10

Where in the Bible is "vision" stated?
---Nana on 2/27/10

Donna,Did you compare mark and luke to matthew?By comparing the three how can you say it was a vision.
Like Jesus in one of his appearances after his resurection he appeared and dissappeared,just as if one had a vision.The ones who experienced this did not call it a vision,did they?
---earl on 2/27/10

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From the three gospels comparrisons,You then ,are saying that the two who was speaking to Jesus at transfiguration was only a dream to the apostles.
---earl on 2/27/10

Donna, good work on explaining the passages in Matthew 17. It was a vision for when they looked again only Jesus was there. Jesus point was to make clear that Elijah had come and the Jewish leaders had failed to recognize him they killed him just as the Messiah was going to suffer similarly. Moses and Elijah came representing Law (Moses) and prophet (Elijah).
---MarkV. on 2/27/10

The transfiguration Jesus (the Word), Moses (the law), and Elijah (the prophet(s)) all in one accord. When God said 'Hear Him', It confirmed Jesus as the Truth through which the Law and the Prophets spoke. Thank you Donna for pointing out 'vision'. I've read these verses before, but God always seems to bring new and enlightening revelation to His Word.
Lamentations 3:22-23 [It is of] the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. [They are] new every morning: great [is] thy faithfulness
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
---MIchael on 2/27/10

One of my Bibles (NIV) puts it a slightly different way. It refers to John as "the Elijah"

That to me does not say he was Elijah, but someone with equal importance.

A bit like an American saying "We need another Washington"
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/10

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1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved(present tense) it is the power of God.
1Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, By which also ye are saved(presently), if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved(past tense) us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
--The BIBLE does not say you are saved, it always says .." SHALL BE SAVED.."--francis 2-26-10
Apparently you are wrong.
---MIchael on 2/27/10

earl-- Neither you nor I were there. But many commentators who know the Bible better than I, have said the same thing that I said

As for the Transfiguration:

Mat 17:2 And [Jesus] was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him

Mat 17: 8-9 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The last 2 verses tell us plainly that Elijah appeared in a vision and was not physically resurrected.
---Donna on 2/26/10

Were you there to interpret what Jesus said?
Also, Did not the apostles place Elijah at the transfiguration?
---earl on 2/26/10

earl -- When Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah, he was speaking figuratively. John was not actually Elijah, but he ministerd in the same spirit and power of Elijah, thus fulfilling his "office" (Luke 1:17). Because John was Elijah in this symbolic sense, Jesus added "if you are willing to receive it."
---Donna66 on 2/26/10

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The apostles placed Elijah at the transfiguration and Jesus said in Mt.11.14 that Elijah is John the baptist.
How spiritual and immortal is that?
So man was,from these two scriptures alone, resurected before the cruxifiction.
Therefore speaking of Elijah, justification by "his" blood was not necessary.
---earl on 2/26/10

earl, John the Baptist clearly said he was NOT Elijah in John 1:21 They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No.

To suggest Elijah came back as John the Baptist is to believe in reincarnation.

Luke 1:17 "It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ((NOT ELIJAH himself)) TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
---kathr4453 on 2/26/10

Matt.11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 AND IF YE WILL RECEIVE, this is Elias, which was for to come.
---michael_e on 2/26/10

In Romans 6:9 we read "much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." What does "justified by his blood" mean? What could "saved from wrath through him" mean?

All have sinned,the wages of SIN is death. Jesus shed his blood for our sins.

having shed his blood for our sins, we are made right before God (justified) when we accept Jesus.

Now that God has declared us to be right before him, when the wrath comes we shall be saved.

The BIBLE does not say you are saved, it always says .." SHALL BE SAVED.."

Salvation is a ONE time event which happens when jesus returns. Those who have accepted him shall be saved from the wrath.
---francis on 2/26/10

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Did not Jesus say to his listners that John the baptist was Elijah?Mt.11.14.So then it is true that resurection can happen prior to the cruxifiction and not thereafter only.
---earl on 2/26/10

ALL MEN ARE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH [John 3:36]. And God's wrath are reserved for His enemies. To have this removed you must be justified through His Son's Blood [Born-again]. Made right with God. Paul....We are reconciled to God by the death of His Son. No wonder Satan hates the preaching of God's shed Blood, which provide our atonement and redemption. JUSTIFICATION...Christ was raised, for our justification, to make continual intercession for us at God's throne. And this is what keeps us, saved....It is the death of Christ and His shed Blood which provide our Atonement and Redemption....Atonement>>>>God has brought sinners to Himself through the Blood-work of Jesus. Redemption>>>To be released from the power of Satan.
---catherine on 2/26/10

First of all, where are the Bereans?

The passage is ROMANS 5:9.

It is a continuation of Romans 5:8, a highly memorized verse. " that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".

Paul is saying (in my own language) "God shows His love to us by having Jesus die for us while we were still sinners, and wait, there's even more. Jesus' blood declares us innocent of all charges (sins) before God and allows us to escape God's wrath.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/26/10

I think that they did not taste death the way we have to.
I believe they were taken straight to Abraham's bosom(OT) to wait until Jesus came.
And I believe they were still flesh when they were caught up.
---miche3754 on 2/26/10

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Hebrews 11:5: By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, and was not found, because God had taken him, for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

these died in faith, not having received the promises.

The author of Hebrews allows for no exceptions when it comes to the question of death. Enoch died, and the prophets died.

There is no hint here that either Enoch or Elijah was taken to be with God in heaven and given immortality before Jesus. They were removed, certainly, but the text does not say taken up to the throne of God. or were resurrected.
---kathr4453 on 2/26/10

kathr,and others,
Did Enoch and Elijah (both human)experience a resurection before the cruxifiction?
Were they "saved from the wrath through him"?
---earl on 2/26/10

"saved through his blood" means exactly that. By the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf, we are saved through His shed blood. He is the ultimate sacrifice because He was/is God in the flesh and offered Himself as payment for our sin. The wrath we are saved from is the wrath of God. If we are saved from everything else and not saved from the wrath of God the saving was a waste. Because we are saved from the wrath of God all else is bonus.
---tommy3007 on 2/26/10

Jesus' sacrifice did not stop God's wrath. It is only holding it back until the day of judgement.
When one is not saved, they are headed for God's wrath at their day of judgement.
When one is saved, they are covered by Jesus' blood and God's wrath passes over them. Just like the Israelites in Egypt when God judged Egypt and took their first born children.
---miche3754 on 2/26/10

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Why is God angry/wrathful?Who is he angry with?
---earl on 2/25/10

EARL, today Gods LOVE is revealed through His Son Jesus Christ. Tomorrow, Gods WRATH TO COME has many aspects.


Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

More later!
---kathr4453 on 2/26/10

Michael ,
I think you are coming in late on my last post.Ill state it more precisely.Did not Enoch and Elijah enter heaven without waiting upon the cruxifiction of Jesus ?Based on Bible readers beliefs Elijah was at the transfiguration of Jesus.
---earl on 2/25/10

earl, I never said he punishes all, but instead I always say that he punishes the disobedient. The righteous get their just deserts- the glory of heaven, and the wicked get their just deservings- the torments of hell. My preaching is always the same, always has been, and always will be: You sin, you die: you right, you live. You obey, you blessed: you disobey, you cursed. You reject Christ, Christ rejects you: you accept Christ, Christ acccepts you. You bless the Lord, the Lord blesses you: you curse the Lord, the Lord curses you. period. There is right, and there is wrong, there is a heaven, and there is a hell, and according to what kind of person each person chooses to be that will be their fate beginning in this life, and in that to come.
---Eloy on 2/26/10

Enoch, Elijah, and Moses didn't sacrifice?
If they were righteous they did. Did not they all obey God?
---MIchael on 2/25/10

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Did or did not not Enoch and Elijah enter eternal life without the shed of blood?How was that possible to skip over the sacrifice?
---earl on 2/25/10

earl, You will see in Luke, Jesus talking about Abraham's Bosom and hades. The just went to Abraham's bosom UNTIL Christ Died and shed his blood the unjust hades or torment. In the three days He was in Paradise AKA Abraham's Bosom ( with the man who died next to Him on the cross.

Jesus led captivity captive, and took WITH HIM the spirits of JUST MEN who were made PERFECT when Christ rose from the dead.Hebrews 12. Heaven and the presence of God were closed to all until Jesus blood also PURGED heaven. Christ was the FIRST to enter, by His own blood.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/10

Why is God angry/wrathful?Who is he angry with?I have heard the reason is because mankind is sinful.If so ,why is God requiring the death of an innocent person when in fact it is others that are causing problems.Is this not displaced anger-a psychological problem?Is there not a spiritual law concerning sin whereby sins cannot migrate/jump over from one person to another?Example,Can clergy or a neighbor take your sins away?No.
Bloodshed to appease God -well I do not believe God is God when the only way to calm him down,shut the revenge off is for his son to jump into a pack of bloodthirsty savages who think they are doing God a favor.
---earl on 2/25/10

kathr's post basically says Jesus' cruxifiction prevented God's wrath.You say God's wrath awakens when a person does not accept/obey his will.What is the deal ?It does not seem to me that God ever calmed down and nothing changed in God's attitude after the cruxifiction.
And ,you say to appease God from wrath upon all mankind of their sins an innocent person is the requirement by God to prevent it?Well,If when you are in authority over others and one person commits a wrong do you punish all under your authority?If you do is this not sin transferance and is it not unjust judgement upon the innocent making them victims of another's sin?
---earl on 2/25/10

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Paul says That because of one man's sin all mankind is guilty if sin.Tell me if when you find your child doing wrong you not only pass judgement on that child but also pass judgement on to all other children you have and make a decree that one of your children who is perfect must experience torture ,bloodshed by others and die to prevent anger you have upon the one child you have caught doing wrong.Have you not transfered the sin of one and your anger upon all your children.Is not this barbaric,primitive thinking and unjust judgement where -he is guilty so all are also guilty?
And you teach sin transferance is just judgement?
---earl on 2/25/10

The payment for sin is death, and Jesus the scapegoat paid this price with his sacrificed life and blood for each one who obeys him. Righteous Jesus Christ is the appeasement for sin, and when a sinner repents from their sins and follows the commandments of Jesus, then are they saved from God's wrath: lit.Gk: "Whom obeying to the Son has everlasting life, but whom disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on that one." John 3:36.
---Eloy on 2/25/10

earl, great questions.

Hebrews 11. Abel vs Cain. Abel brought a blood sacrifice,Cain refused. In the OT those who put their faith in the COMING redeemer RE: Gen 3:15 ALL made BLOOD sacrifices. Rahab in Joshua,(a scarlet( representing Blood) thread was placed in her window, saving her and her family from God's wrath coming upon all the " ITES

Earl, you can trace the BLOOD from Adam/Eve, when God shed blood and covered them all the way through Revelation!

Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. ---

# Hebrews 11:28
By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 2/25/10

You said that no one could experience heaven if not for Jesus and his cruxifiction.Well what do you say about Enoch?Is Elijah and Moses who is said to have been present at the transfiguration untrue?In what form were they in?The story does not suggest they were human,does it?How did they experience being outside of human form at the transfiguration without Jesus' cruxifiction that occurs later?Did not they have an open door to heaven prior to the cruxifiction?I say yes they did.
Did Abraham recieve recognition as having righteousness?.Was this not his ticket to heaven?I say it was.
---earl on 2/25/10

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Jesus could have refused to redeem mankind. The Bible reports how He struggled mightily with this just before he went to be crucified. If He had decided not to, we would unable to know God or experience Heaven.

As I explained, a righteous judge doesn't overlook the acts of those who break the law. God, who is both Holy and perfectly righteous, does not either. And we all have broken His laws.

I don't expect you to understand this. And you won't with your human reasoning alone.
I rather doubt that you really want to understand! Bit IF you do, reading the New testament is a good place to start.
---Donna66 on 2/24/10

Donna66: Well said! It is difficult to understand how anyone who calls himself "Christian" would not know this simple explanation of the gospel, and be awed by the infinite condescension and perfect love of our Creator and Saviour.
---jerry6593 on 2/25/10

If there was no one else qualified to "take the penalty"then who pins the tail on the donkey.Jesus then becomes the automatic scapegoat and there was no "voluntary" act involved on Jesus' part in decision making to abort the anger/wrath by another.Who is this wrathful entity and why the anger?
Does blood have to flow from a voluntarily/selected person to provide a gateway for others to enter to appease the wrathful one?
It seems to me that if others are causing the angry one to strike back why is the standard set that an innocent one to take the hit for what others do?
---earl on 2/24/10

Isaiah 59:16 "He saw that there was no man,
and wondered that there was no one to intercede,
then his own arm brought him salvation,
and his righteousness upheld him."

The light and the truth and the way, as it always has been, through them, which is the light which at first lights every man who comes into the world.
Romans 1:19 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them." (...They shall all be taught of God..., Ain't that the truth?)
Through Him, He which is the Word of God (earl), as always, as Abraham, life and salvation in the Word and through the Word and by the Word.
---Nana on 2/24/10

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What would be morally justified is, if imperfect man, sinning man, could never approach God and contaminate His Holiness. God's perfect judgement would demand this.

But Jesus, who was himself sinless, voluntarily, took the penalty deserved by sinful men so that God's justice could be satisfied. By depending on Christ's sacrifice, we can approach God as if WE, like Jesus, were sinless. Thus we can be reconciled to our Creator and Holy God.

This is the Gospel.
---Donna66 on 2/24/10

The post was "saved from wrath through him"
Who's wrath/anger was it?
What/why was the anger from?
I think what you are saying is that when Jesus died he stayed the flow of anger of someone and the future is saved from futher wrath and now mankind has an open door to eternal life for the asking.
Now if that is true how did Abraham recieve righteousness long ago by God by only believing in God? Did not Enoch and Elijah recieve eternal life?How did they do it without bloodshed of Jesus?
---earl on 2/24/10

---If wrath from God then does this mean that God withdraws his wrath-anger or punishment only if he sees his son bleeding and tortured to death to be appeased?
If true,how is this action morally justified?---
---earl on 2/24/10

earl, no actually when God sees you have been washed in the BLOOD of His Son He will pass over you. Just like those in Egypt. Christ is our Passover Lamb...His Blood.

Remember it was MAN who beat and tortured Jesus...also you need to see in the OT sacrifices of the lambs slain, that no one took the lambs/goats off somewhere and beat/tortured them first and then sacrificed them.

Yes Christ Died for us...but we are not saved by his suffering, we are saved by His Shed Blood!
---kathr4453 on 2/24/10

"Justified by His blood"
Nothing we could, or can do, compensates for the results of our sinful nature. Jesus suffered physically (by shedding his blood) and spiritually (by being separated from the Father while on the cross). Because He was sinless, and offered Himself as a sacrifice for OUR sins, we my be "justified" in God's sight, as if we too are sinless, if we place our faith on Jesus Christ. Then He will spare us the wrath of God personally and historically in the end times.

(Some will disagree, implying Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient, saying that faith plus our own righteousness, saves.)
---Donna66 on 2/24/10

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Question-Wrath from who to whom?

If wrath from God then does this mean that God withdraws his wrath-anger or punishment only if he sees his son bleeding and tortured to death to be appeased?
If true,how is this action morally justified?
Has God taught anyone to act or think in this manner?
What court in heaven condones this action?
---earl on 2/24/10

---Bill_bila5659 I must say I really like your answer!!
---mima on 2/24/10

1 Corinthians 7:12 says "the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife," so that "your children" "are holy." So, people who are holy have power to make others holy. Jesus is holy, and His blood is holy with power to justify us, getting us changed from how we have been in "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2). Each "is joined to the Lord . . . one spirit with Him." (in 1 Corinthians 6:17) In union with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit changes us to become how He is holy in love, in "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God," (in 1 Peter 3:4) so we are safe from God's wrath.
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/24/10

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