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Atheistic Evolution By Christians

Why do many Christians accept atheistic evolution in whole or in part?

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 ---jerry6593 on 2/28/10
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Alan-expert at creative missunderstanding.

The events of Genesis 1-3 are the gospel's historical foundation, the cause for the need of Jesus death and resurrection. Disconnect Jesus atoning sacrifice from its historical foundation (by long-ages/evoultionary ideas) and you have undermined the historical reality of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:21,22 "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive." Which part of this isn't historical reality?

Long-ages/evolution postulates death existed long before Adam. So the gospel is based on a false foundation? Maybe Jesus death/resurrection never happened? Maybe just spiritual?
---Warwick on 3/11/10


Alan: Yes, paganism! All evolution, even theistic, has man ascending from lower life forms. That concept was not new to Darwin - it dates from ancient pagan beliefs. I thought you knew that.

Still you have not given a reason why you wish to include such thinking in your version of Christianity. Do you think that science compells it?
---jerry6593 on 3/11/10


Jerry ... Pagan explanation?

Warwick ... Oh dear, I thought our salvation hangs on Jesus.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/10/10


Alan, I have always illustrated my belief by Scripture. It tells me what God has done, is doing, and will do. Conversely you have not supported your long-ages possibilities by Scripture. I hold God's word to be superior, in every way, to man's ideas. I say you should know as God's word is clear.

I am convinced Jesus was saying man was made at the beginning of this wonderous universe, our world, and us-The whole creation, as per Romans 8:22. If you accept this you would see there is no room for long ages before or after Adam.

These matters are vital as the reality of the gospel, and our salvation hang upon this.
---Warwick on 3/10/10


Alan: Great. But, the answer I'm still looking for is the thing that convinced you that it may be necessary to insert a little pagan explanation for man's origin into the biblical account in contradiction to that very biblical account.
---jerry6593 on 3/10/10




How exactly do you define 'atheistic evolution'? When I read Darwin's 'the origin of species' (it appears that at the ime, at least, he was a believer) it does not go much against the Bible. If you look carefully, it becomes very hard to hold both, but the idea of 'micro evolution' can still (sort of) be held to as a christian. the problem is the other 'historicists' who go from a research paper (Darwin's) to the general idea that there is no Creator. That is what we should really be arguing against
---peter3594 on 3/10/10


Warwick ... I have nailed my colours to the mast ... but can't say yes or no if the answer is I don't know.

But you yourself have used the words 'beginning' and 'creation' in all the different ways that I have said they can be taken, ... and yet, you say I am wrong in having those slightly different meanings.

That indicates a determination to prove me wrong, even when we agree. What's your motive?

Jerry ... I used the term Christian Faith. I think people understand that better then "belief system" or "paradigm", with it 14 or 17 word definition depending on which one you take.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/9/10


If you don't like "belief system," then put whatever word in there you like. How about "paradigm?" That's not the point. The answer I'm looking for is the thing that convinced you that it may be necessary to insert a little pagan explanation for man's origin into the biblical account in contradiction to that very biblical account.
---jerry6593 on 3/9/10


Not at all Alan. There are things we agree upon and things we do not. On certain issues you are not prepared to nail your colours to the mast, not prepared to accept what God's word says, and say an unequivocal yes.

Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No', anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Matthew 5:37
---Warwick on 3/9/10


Jerry ... What precisely do you intend by using the word "belief system"?

Is to to disparage or to deny my Christian Faith?
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/8/10




Warwick ... You are making heavy weather of trying to prove that we agree on nothing
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/8/10


Christians do not accept the fantasy of evolution, instead Christians accept the fact of creation.
---Eloy on 3/8/10


Alan: Thank you for your straightforward answer. Again I must ask, what is the compelling reason, evidence, etc. for which you make allowance for these long ages in your belief system? Do you know?
---jerry6593 on 3/8/10


Alan the time-scale is clearly spelled out by God in Genesis ch 1, the geneaolgies, Exodus 20:8-11, and Jesus' statement that man was made at the beginning of the creation, that in which we live.

The above rules out the possibility of long-ages. The foundation for the gospel is spelled out in Romans 5:12,14, 6:23, and 1 Corinthians 15: 21, 22. These Scriptures also rule out long-ages.

Despite the lack of any supportive Scripture, and in contradiction to that above, and elsewhere, some still wish to hang on to other possibilities. Why?
---Warwick on 3/7/10


Jerry & Warwick ... I do wonder why you both try to say we disagree about things on which we agree!

We disagree about the possible timescale ... nothing else!

Everything else you say about "beginning" and "Creation" is in line with what I say. Perhaps though you don't like it that others express things in different ways.

Jerry ... Yes I an agnostic about tiemscale, about "theistic evolution of some sort, planned by God", about climate change, and also about your claim to be a Christian. Because I don't know.

For you to equate that with atheism is cheap, childish, and dishonest, and shameful.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/7/10


I always understood the phrase "at the beginning of the creation" to mean "at the beginning, at the creation."

For those who wish to make a religion out of this text, what do you do with the following meaning?

Rev 3:14 .... These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, "the beginning of the creation" of God,
---jerry6593 on 3/7/10


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Alan: "My answer is already clear in record. I do not know!"

Wow! At last, it's out! You're an "agnostic" - just like the guy who calls himself "atheist."

Again I must ask, what is the compelling reason, evidence, etc. for which you make allowance for the possibility of evolution in your belief system? Do you know?
---jerry6593 on 3/6/10


Alan, you continue to evade the point. You originally said long-ages were a possibility-a 'hedging your bets' vagueness.

I pointed out Jesus said man was made at the beginning of creation. He alone was there, He alone knows when man was created. Therefore He would not say man was created on day 1, but created at the beginning of the creation, that is which He was living when He made this statement.

I believe you are evasive and vague because you wish to 'hedge your bets' leaving it open for you to believe in long-ages.

Scripture disagrees with you.

If there were long-ages before Adam, death was in the world long before He sinned. Scripture says NO!
---Warwick on 3/6/10


Jerry, after reading many of the answers concerning scripture, speculating on things not in scripture is a method use by many to question the very inspired word of God. It's always been that way. One reason so many come out with new theolgies.
---Bob on 3/6/10


Jerry ... Incensed? Oh poor Jerry? Where do I show anger?

My answer is already clear in record. I do not know! But if it turns out there is theistic evolution of some sort, planned by God, and over whatever timescale it may be, my faith would not be disturbed.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/6/10


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Alan: This is not the first time that you've implied that you believe something, and then become incensed whenever someone calls you on it. How sad.

Tell us straight out. Do you believe in any form of evolution (theistic or otherwise)? Yes or No?
---jerry6593 on 3/6/10


Warwick, You prove the point I was making, that "beginning" can be used to mean different things, which you previously denied.

One meaning of creation (noun) is the world in which we live, and yes since it is 6000 or more years old, humans were made at the beginning (or very soon after!) of its existence.

Another meaning of creation (verb) is God's actions ... what He did, not what He made. And it was a period of 6 days. He had then finished creating, and rested. Man appeared on the last day of that period of creation.

In spite of your inference, I have never claimed that you accepted my view that the six "days" might not be literally 24 of our hours. Note I said "might not"
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/6/10


Alan the point I have made all along is that Jesus said man was made at the beginning of creation. I am confident Jesus, The Creator, knew exactly when He made Adam and Eve, well aware they were not made at the beginning of His 6 days of creation, but at the beginning of the creation, that in which He and we live. Hereby Jesus shows there were no long ages before man was created.

If there were long ages before man appeared then Jesus either didn't know or did not tell the truth. But He does know and He is The Truth!

For the Bible believer Jesus statement should prove that there are no millions/billions of years before man was created. This should settle the young earth/old earth question. Note I said should!
---Warwick on 3/5/10


Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
-or- God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning.
--That doesn't change it's meaning, but it does show more clearly that 'beginning' means the start of creation in this context.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (also Mat 19:4)
--This tells me that either God created man at the very start of creation(in the beginning), which goes against Gen 1:24-31, or God created man during creation(from the beginning). This doesn't clear up old/young earth, but it does imply that 'beginning' took way less than 4000 years, else Jesus would have said 'from the middle' or 'near the end' don't ya think?
---MIchael on 3/5/10


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Jerry ... Are we talking about atheistic evolution or theistic evolution?

And whenever have I supported the former?
NEVER! and and you know it.

I don't have faith in theistic evolution, Still less do I give any support to "old Charlie's fantasy" of atheistic evolution. How could any Christian?

You seem to be afraid of God using whatever tools he wants. But you should remember: member, He is God, and you cannot dictate to Him.

But never mind, you are by no means alone in distorting what others say, just to win points and to try to discredit them. You seem unable to debate without such ploys.

How sad!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/5/10


Warwick ... You memory is faulty! We were talking about the word "beginning", not about time scales.

I suggested one meaning of "beginning" was the eternal period during which God existed before he started Creation

My second meaning of "beginning" was the actual initial split second when God started making it

My third meaning of "beginning" was the extended initial Creation period, described in Genesis, at the end of which, as Jesus said, man was created.

You said I was wrong on all of this, but you now seem very close to it.

But you still seem to have this odd idea that Creation can only have one meaning, the thing we live in, and not also the action that God took.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/5/10


Alan: "Jerry ... You say I have a faith in theistic evolution. Where do you get that from? I have not expressed a faith in it, just said that it would not disturb my Christian faith."

Oh, perhaps your continual implying that you could embrace old Charlie's fantasy, would lead one to that conclusion.

"I'm surprised that your faith is so weak that if you were shown that evolution was one of God's tools, your faith would be utterly destroyed."
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10
---jerry6593 on 3/5/10


Atheist I have already explained what I see as humourous.
---Warwick on 3/4/10


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Alan you wrote "I'm glad that you've now come round to what I was saying about a year ago."

What a strange and untrue statement. A debating tactic perhaps?

Long ago I pointed out Jesus said man was created at the beginning of the creation. Creation being that which He and now we live in, not creation week. I did so as you were promoting a long-ages view wherein man appeared long-ages (whether millions or billions of years) after the beginning. Definitely the opposite of what Jesus the Creator clearly states.

You have tried this tactic before, earlier claiming I had come around to your point of view, which is incorrect. Now you try it again.

Curious!
---Warwick on 3/4/10


Waarwick,

Eternal as infinity is an unapproachable concept. You can always add one. What's so humorous about eternal matter or energy? The idea that the flying spaghetti monster is eternal has some humor, but I have never seen it and so, like 'god' I don't believe it exists, much less that it is eternal. But matter and energy on the other hand, I do have first hand knowledge of, and why would anyone think that they did not exist 'eternally'?
---atheist on 3/4/10


Warwick ... "Six days, in this light is all but the beginning"

I'm glad that you've now come round to what I was saying about a year ago.

Jerry ... You say I have a faith in theistic evolution. Where do you get that from? I have not expressed a faith in it, just said that it would not disturb my Christian faith.

But at least you have admitted that Christians don't accept atheistic evolution, as your original question implied.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/4/10


I'm surprised that your faith is so weak that if you were shown that evolution was one of God's tools, your faith would be utterly destroyed.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10

The New Earth/Old Earth debate among Christians has been waging nearly as long as the theory of evoluton has been around.

Old Earth proponents (perhaps yourself) say that evolution can coexist with creation. Ok, I will accept that statement. However, the evidence for true macro evolution does not exist and must therefore remain a theory.

Growing up I loved Sherlock Holmes. I love the quote "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

Creation remains after all else is eliminated.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/4/10


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Atheist I assume you meant why can't energy and matter be eternal?

Scripturally speaking God created matter e.g. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." Before that there was nothing that we would recognize.

I had previously asked you repeatedly, receiving no answer, if you believed matter was eternal or created itself.

It would be a little humorous to me if an atheist while rejecting the notion of an eternal God, nonetheless believed in the notion of eternal matter.
---Warwick on 3/4/10


Alan: I don't believe that your faith in theistic evolution is compatible with Genesis. Genesis clearly defines our ancestry as originating personally from God to Adam on day 6 of creation. Theistic evolution would have man ascending from a lower life form billions of years later.

The Bible traces man's noble ancestry all the way back to God, as:

Luk 3:38 .... which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The ancestry of man according to evolutionists is:

.... which was the son of a slime worm, which was the son of an amoeba, which was the son of ?????
---jerry6593 on 3/4/10


Warwick,

So why can't matter and energy by 'eternal'?
---atheist on 3/3/10


Alan, God is eternal, however matter has a beginning. I have pointed out Jesus said man was made at the beginning of creation. That is man was created on 24hr-day 6. Jesus made this comment about 4,000 years (1,440,000 days) after the beginning of creation. Six days, in this light is all but the beginning.

It is obvious from Jesus' words that man was not made 6,000/6,000,000/6,000,000,000 years after the beginning of creation, as theistic evolutionists would have us believe!

God has told us in Genesis Ch. 1 that He created in 6 days, confirming the length of these days in Exodus 20:8-11. If the three sets of 6 days are not the same 24hr length then God cannot communicate and the commandment is meaningless.
---Warwick on 3/3/10


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Warwick, I think in the past you have told me that the creation occurred right at the very beginning of everything, and that God theerefore did not exist before Creation.

That makes God only 6000 plus years old.

And yet he is eternal!

Can't you accept that whatever explanations we give, we can't suggest a timescale that we can understand with our minute minds?

I've previously put to you the final paragraph of what I've now said to Mark E.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


There you go again Mark E questioning and denying another Christian's faith.

I was converted at age 16 some 54 years ago.

Nowadays they call it being saved and born-again.

But that's 54 years I've been on the "slippery slope" you talk about & I've not slid down it at all.

Mind you, I do wonder whether the "lake of fire" is metaphorical rather than physical. Do you think that matters? Whether it is or not, it has no bearing whatsoever about Jesus and His saving work.

I'm surprised that your faith is so weak that if you were shown that evolution was one of God's tools, your faith would be utterly destroyed.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


Jerry my experience shows quite earnest Christians accept theistic evolution as they have been convinced, by their schooling, that long-ages/microbe-to-man evolution is proven fact. A proper scientific investigation shows otherwise.

Mark Eaton writes well, not compromising with worldly thinking. We are commanded not to-Colossians 2:8.

Reinterpreting God's word away from its plain meaning, because of changing 'evolving' human philosophies, is indeed a 'slippery slope' as Mark says. Whole denominations have slid into the obscurity of liberalism after giving up on the truth of Genesis ch. 1. The rot started there!

If the days are not 24hr days,(as confirmed by Exodus 20:8-11) how can we take any Scripture at face value?
---Warwick on 3/3/10


For those who wish to find the truth of the creation/evolution issue may I recommend books by the Scientist Dr Jonathan Sarfati- "Refuting Compromise", "Refuting Evolution" and his latest "Greatest Hoax on Earth." His latest book demolishes Dr Richard Dawkin's evolutionary claims point by point, showing that Biblical creation makes mose sense. These are available at the site Creation dot com.

Every Christian (and atheist) should read these books.
---Warwick on 3/3/10


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Alan:

You may not deny Genesis 1:1 but you certainly deny Genesis 1:5, 1:8, 1:13, etc., anywhere it says the word DAY in the creation.

Now this is the slippery slope you are on. If the word day here in Genesis 1 does not really mean a 24 hour period but an eon, or an age, or a million years, why then in other Scriptures perhaps the word sin really is not all bad and the words lake of fire really do not mean that literally.

No, the validity of ALL Scripture hangs on the word day in Genesis 1 meaning a 24 hour period.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/3/10


Mark E ... You are quite right to make your point.

However that its not the point at issue, which was that you should not condemn as non Christians those who differ from you.

Do any of the theistic evolutionists deny Genesis 1 ?

NO
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


Many Christians, Warwick, do accept the possibility of a form of evolutionary development as part of God's Creation method.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10

I am one who does not.

The fossil record also bears this out.

For evolution to be a reality, there must be "transitional" forms or "missing links" in the fossil record. Creatures that are evolving from one life form to another must show up. But they do not. Their existence is mere conjecture. They are inserted into the evolutionary chain as if they did exist and are then taken as fact.

This the biggest "secret" in the anthropological world and demonstrates how unreliable their "science" is.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/3/10


Aren't things getting a bit out of hand here?

Many Christians, Warwick, do accept the possibility of a form of evolutionary development as part of God's Creation method.

It's not helpful if anyone accuses them of not being Christians, just because thye may be wrong on this issue.

And I don't know where Larry got the impression that any here (except Atheist and other non-Christians) do not accept Genesis 1.1 as the beginning of this World of ours.

It's too easy to think that those who differ about one thing have got it all wrong, and start flinging accusations of lack of faith

I wonder if behaviour would be the same if we were sitting in the same room? Does the anonymity of the web change us?
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/10


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Elaine, that's just being circular... To say God created Himself would bring about "Who created Him, that He could create Himself?" God is eternal. You either need an eternal Creator who exists outside of the time dimension we live in (that is not to say there is no interaction between), who Created the world, the universe, time itself, or else you have Nothing suddenly becoming Something at a random moment to create the universe in which we live (even though I was always told that the Law of the Conservation of Energy would deny that). The former, for a Christian, is God (and in my understanding of the Bible) and created the world in 6 literal days. The latter usually results in some old-age explanation.
---simon7348 on 3/3/10


Further to my earlier response regarding 6 days... At what point did Sin enter the world? Genesis 3, Adam and Eve sinned then kicked out of Eden - prior to conceiving Cain. Genesis 5:3 indicates Adam had Seth at age 130, and Seth was a replacement for Abel after he was killed. Adam had at least three children before Seth: Cain (Genesis 4:1), Cain's wife (Genesis 4:17), and Abel (Genesis 4:2). So, before the Fall would have to be less than 130 years.

Jumping back to Creation Week, Adam and Eve couldn't have sinned on Day 6 (the day they were created), since God declared that everything was "good" otherwise sin would be good. It was likely not on Day 7, since God sanctified it. Therefore, it had to be soon after this.
---simon7348 on 3/3/10


Warwick: I agree that "theistic evolution is an oxymoron," as evolution is inherently atheistic. The word atheist derives from the greek "a-theos" meaning "not God" or "without God." Even theistic evolution admits that the creation of man came from lower life forms and proceded by naturalistic random accidents rather than by the personal intervention of God. Hence, even theistic evolution is "without God," and is therefore atheistic.

But the question - as yet unanswered - is WHY DO CHRISTIANS ACCEPT THIS ANTI-GOD NONSENSE? What is the overarching evidence that convinces them to ignore the Bible version and embrace an atheistic counterfeit creation?
---jerry6593 on 3/3/10


Who created the Creator? God did. Of all the things we could ask about Time and beginnings, we are always left with the question, "What came before that?" To say that God created Himself is not so far-fetched. Whatever existed before there was "something", was God. Genesis tells us God is Spirit. Conscious energy. The Life of Sentience, and directive and purpose. It seems a probable leap to think the Lord likewise created all things as His concept of them unfolded. After all, do we surmise He doesn't think? Can we believe that the wonders of the universe have no similarities or intention? That Consciousness does not study, suppose, or desire an end result?
---Elaine on 3/2/10


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Not at all Cluny. The fact is I doubt the integrity of your intentions and hence don't feel under any obligation to explain the gospel to you. If you already know it, what is the point? If don't know, and really want to know, pick up a Bible, and get reading.
---Warwick on 3/2/10


Not sure Jerry, its a real head shaker. If a believer doesn't accept Genesis 1:1 you've got to question whether he really is a believer.
If you want to get in trouble tell God he's a liar and that's exactly what you are doing if you accept Satan's lie over God's word.
Nevermind that evolution is irrational and doesn't even follow man's own creation of scientific evidence.

God has set his word above even his own name, duh?
---larry on 3/2/10


\\
Cluny, study the NT and see what the one and only gospel is. It isn't a secret!

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8 Paul says there is only one gospel. I am with him. Go Paul! \\

In other words, you can't answer the question I asked you about defining your own words.
---Cluny on 3/2/10


Warwick,

It is not redundant.

It is recursive, as in "The question regarding who created the creator is not a sensible question as it has already been answered, by the Creator Himself."
---atheist on 3/2/10


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I wonder if Jerry can honestly say in which context, and for what reason, the question ""Who created the Creator?" was first raised here?
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10


What, now we have 'Atheista' a female version of Atheist! Quelle horreur!

The question regarding who created the creator is not a sensible question as it has already been answered, by the Creator Himself. We need to remember this is a Christian site and consequently when Christians refer to the Creator they mean the God of the Bible, who is eternal, not created. End of story.

Do some propose that nothing can be eternal?

Of course you can ask any question but this one is redundant.
---Warwick on 3/2/10


Cluny, study the NT and see what the one and only gospel is. It isn't a secret!

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8 Paul says there is only one gospel. I am with him. Go Paul!

Right in the opening verses of Genesis God created time, defining what length one day is. He confirms this elswhere such as in Exodus 20:8-11 where he explains our 7 day week is the same length as His 7 day week. He is outside of time but obviously we aren't.

I work a 6-day week, does anyone need ask-how long are the days of your week?
---Warwick on 3/2/10


Two things, fear and lack of understanding.

Fear is caused by a lack of knowledge.

An evolutionary geologists tells a believer that it takes millions of years to form those rocks over here. What can the believer say to refute this "evidence"?

Perhaps a counter punch such as, Well, then, explain this using your theory. How can those "million" year old rocks still contain soft tissue samples of animals trapped in them? Wouldn't the tissues be fossilized by now?

Lack of understanding is caused by not knowing our Bible. We simply do not know and fully understand the nature and power of our God.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/2/10


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I'm with Warwick on the creation issue. I don't see how these periods would fit - assuming (yes, I realise I'm basing this on God being consistent...) that each "period" that is referred to in Genesis as "yom" is the the same/consistent throughout the creation process, then we have man/animals created on Day 6. Day 7 was pronounced "good" (Gen 1 v31 NASB). There was also evening and morning on the days in question (Gen 1 v5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31). Adam died at the age of 930 (Genesis 5 v6) so that suggests that day 6 (and hence if consistent, all the other "yom"s) cannot be more than 900-odd years in length... Hardly millions.
---Simon7348 on 3/2/10


Jerry ... No Christian would accept an atheistic principle.

That was the fault in your question.

As for who created the creator, you already have had my answer
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/10


Jerry: "Who created the Creator?" is a stupid question."

Asked who created the watch. Your answer would be the watchmaker.

Asked who created the pot. Your answer would be the potter.

Asked who created the potter and the watchmaker you would say 'god', the 'creator'.

Who or what created the creator? The question is not stupid. If you can ask the questions of who or what created the watch or the pot, and then ask who created the watchmaker or the potter, you certainly can ask who 'created' the 'creator'.
---atheista on 3/2/10


Alan: "Atheist ... You have put your finger right on the nub of the issue. may I be a bit blunter, and say what a stupid question it was?"

With all due respect, questions such as "Who created the Creator?" is a stupid question. I suppose you agree with the atheist on that one too.
---jerry6593 on 3/2/10


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\\Because God is outside of time and does not need time to create. \\

Therefore, what He deigns may take centuries to be fully manifest as we experience time.

And what is the "one and only Gospel"? Please give BCV in your answer.
---Cluny on 3/1/10


Apostle, as regards physical changes within creatures we do see change which is usually called natural selection/variation/ speciation, but we do not see the changes necessary for one kind of creature to evolve into a completely different kind.
---Warwick on 3/1/10


Cluny, you wrote "And, of course, there's no way under the sun that God would work through natural processes that He Himself set up, right? This would NEVER happen."

If you mean God creating over billions of years via evolutionary processes then this would never happen. Why? Because God is outside of time and does not need time to create. Time was created for us, and will come to an end. God speaks and what He wants happens.

Should He have created over billions of years via evolutionary processes then He is a poor communicator, as His clear explanation does not fit with long-ages and evolution.

The very idea undermines the only foundation of the one and only gospel.
---Warwick on 3/1/10


Has God stopped creating?

To say so is to deny that He created you a new creature in and by Christ.
---Cluny on 3/1/10


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"Things" do evolve, ideas and those of a physical nature as well. Evolution is all around us, including the thoughts, actions, directions and mind sets of the churches. Our eventual existence as a species will require this intellectual and physical evolution to continually advance. Open your minds.
---apostle on 3/1/10


Ideas evolve. Things do not. A creative God sees the end from the beginning, or else, he envisions the end result before he starts a thing. He is Creative. Likewise, Mankind is Creative, and can envision an end result before he even begins. We call this engineering. Yet, Man's first wheel, made of stone or a log is a far cry from a set of low-profile Perrelli tires. Ideas evolve. Things do not.
---Elaine on 3/1/10


And, of course, there's no way under the sun that God would work through natural processes that He Himself set up, right?

This would NEVER happen.
---Cluny on 3/1/10


because they are of the world,looking for physical answers to a creation by God.Their faith is not in God,but in a scientific based physical explanation of life.
---tom2 on 3/1/10


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Jerry did you mean theistic evolution?

Evolution is at its core atheistic, as I am sure Atheist would agree. As proposed it needs no God.

I am well aware many Christians accept theistic evolution however I believe it an oxymoron. Evolution needs no God nor does He need evolution and His word does not allow for it.

Why would Almighty God need billions of years, complete with evolutionary mistakes and dead ends, to achieve His ends?

If He should have used such a slow, violent and wasteful method to achieve His ends why not admit it? Why give us a totally opposite explanation.

If Genesis cannot be taken at face-value how can anyone take the NT at face-value? See John 3:12
---Warwick on 2/28/10


Your question makes a false assumption: that all evolutionary theories are inherently atheist.
---Cluny on 2/28/10


Atheist ... You have put your finger right on the nub of the issue.

may I be a bit blunter, and say what a stupid question it was?

How can any Christian accept anything that is atheistic?

It is Jerry (and others) who say that evolution is necessarily atheistic. Other Christains don't agree with that, and accept theistic evolution.

Now, they might be wrong, and maybe in God's plan there was and is nothing like evolution. It does not matter.

But to say that Christians accept atheist anything is just plain daft.

Sorry Jerry!!!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/28/10


"In the beginning God created" you shall find this in the very first chapter and verse of the Bible....Besides that, God has chosen so few people for eternal life till it's not funny. Yet, He is God and God does the choosing, my friends. No more needs to be said about this question. Not by me, anyways.
---catherine on 2/28/10


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I can't imagine a Christian accepting atheistic evolution (in a "macro-evolutionary" sense) that life started spontaneously for unknown reasons and advanced from there.

"Micro-evolution", however, is an established scientific fact. Species adapt themselves to various conditions over time ("natural selection", also observed by Darwin) This is easily demonstrated using life forms that produce many generations in a short time i.e microbes,flies, rats.
However, they have never been known to evolve into different species. This is evidence in addition to the Bible, that supports
Creationism... whether the time period is reckoned in millions or thousands of years.
---Donna66 on 2/28/10


There are people who are mainly involved with what is physical, and they judge by how physical things appear to work. So, they can be swayed to think that physical forces and principles caused one living being to give rise to another. Ones also think sexual preference is decided by what is physical (including physical genes), even though a preference, I offer, involves a desire of the *heart* which is spiritual. And we have people who believe emotions are biologically determined by brain chemistry, since emotions show at the physical level. However emotions involve motives which come from desires also of the heart which is spiritual. Ones don't think spiritual powers can produce physical creation and other physical results.
---Bill_bila5659 on 2/28/10


Jerry,

The Creation Position: 'God' 'created' man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.

The Theistic Evolution Position: Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but 'god' guided this process, including "man's creation".

The Atheistic Evolution Position: Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. No 'god' participated in this process.

It would not seem that Christian could accept atheistic evolution at all, but they might accept theistic evolution if they do not take the bible absolutely literally.

Is that what you meant to say? : Why do many Christians accept theistic evolution?
---atheist on 2/28/10


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