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Did Paul Sin After Salvation

In first Timothy 1:15 and Romans 7:15-20 is Paul telling of committing sin even some 14 years after his conversion? If he is not calling himself a sinner what is he saying?

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 ---mima on 3/8/10
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-- Miche :

Sister, I agree Paul is talking about the flesh, for which we're killed all the day long for Christ sake & are accounted as sheep for the slaughter : But many are confusing the "Flesh' with the 'Old Man's Nature' which is already Dead & Crucified with Christ, planted together in the likeness of His Resurrection .. Whoever started the dogma of 'Two Natures' in Christ is confusing the issue even more !!

It's the flesh that isn't officially dead, until we in Christ leave this earth, not the old man's nature.

Miche, Once the old man's nature is dead & buried with Christ, there's no resurrecting the old man's nature again, he's only going to be resurrected as the New Man's Nature in Christ.
---Shawn.M.T on 3/13/10


-- Miche :

Rom.7:18, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing: for to Will is present with me.

Sister, It would do us all some good to Understand the Truth about who the 'Old Man' is, he's the Body of our Soul brought with the price of the Blood of Christ, and is now the New Man & temple of the Holy Ghost : the Will that is present. 1 Cor.6:19-20

We as New Creatures have one nature, that of Christ !!!

We struggle with sin b/c it's been condemned in the flesh & is an outer hindrance of clothing, that we die to every day, but the FLESH isn't the old man who was crucified with Christ, planted together in the likeness of His Death & Resurrection : THE FLESH WON'T BE RESURRECTED.
---Shawn.M.T on 3/12/10


See, and everybody gets upset when I tell them Kath is a great teacher.
And Donna66, AMEN for stepping up!
I am really enjoying reading the stuff you ladies are posting.

Shawn, brother, it will do you some good to understand that the old man isn't officially dead until WE die.
Paul even mention resurrecting our old nature.
The 2 natures is the reason WHY we still struggle with sin.
Paul says too, that which ever we sow to will be the one that has life.
So, if we sow to the Spirit, it will live and grow stronger in us.
If we sow to the flesh, it will get stronger, thus resurrecting the "dead" old man.
Kath and Donna got my eyes and ears on this one.
Good job ladies!
---miche3754 on 3/12/10


No. Conversion is not salvation. It is only the first step. Then comes sanctification - the struggle for righteousness that Paul spoke of. The third step, glorification, is final salvation - achieved ONLY at Jesus' second coming.
---jerry6593 on 3/12/10


"Do you think he didn't understand what he himself taught?":oD
Donna66, 'If', I say if, Paul was referring to himself as a sinner, he did not.
For he also said "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Saul, the sinner, at the time of this writing was dead and his life was "hid with Christ in God." Therefore, 'if' Paul actually thought himself a sinner, he should have "Set [his] mind on things above, not on things on the earth. Forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead."
---Josef on 3/12/10




"For he made him sin for us", and Christ being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree." II Cor.5:21+ Gal.3:13. You can see the falsehood in this miscontexting and misapplication in blaspheming Jesus, the Holy One of Israel: but in the right context scripture reads,"is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid! For he has made him sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree." Gal.2:17+ II Cor.5:21+ Gal.3:13. And many such things will sin-supporters do, to the sinless saints and to the sinless Lord.
---Eloy on 3/12/10


Was Paul perfectly able to control his tongue? Maybe I am a skeptic and revealing my own failings, but I challenge the perfect to let someone talk to all your mates and acquaintances and see if you are perfect.
---Rod4Him on 3/11/10

True!

I don,t think he did when he was argueing with Peter Face to Face.
---John on 3/11/10


I relate to James where he says that a perfect/mature person can control the tongue. Was Paul perfectly able to control his tongue? Maybe I am a skeptic and revealing my own failings, but I challenge the perfect to let someone talk to all your mates and acquaintances and see if you are perfect.
---Rod4Him on 3/11/10


Huh, of course he sinned after salvation and struggled with his body of death?

Moses, Job, Michilzedek, Paul...all sinners at the beginning and end of their lives.
---larry on 3/11/10


Thier it's a day that goes by that a so called christian doesn't sin. Show me one that says so and I'll show you a sinner. We sin every day in one way or another, that's where our FATHER'S grace and mercy falls into play and all we have to do is talk to Him. Jesus paid for every sin pass, present and future. I learned so much from my mistakes, I think I'll make a few more.When you in His way He will close the doors He doesn't want you to go through. He will lead you in way you should go.
---Ben on 3/11/10




Mark eaton --

Again, I ask why does Paul consistently use the present tense when describing his difficulties?

Before we met Jesus, we sinned because
we could not avoid it, In our natural state we were sinners. After salvation we didn't magically become incapable of sin. (If you doubt this, just ask anyone who knew you then!)

When we were saved, we were reconciled to God by Jesus imputing His righteousness to us. We had none of our own.

But now, for the first time, because of what Christ did for us, we are ABLE to CHOOSE righteous behavior instead of sin, not that we always do! BUT we are no longer BOUND by sin.

Being able to choose righteousness is not the same as being righteous.
---Donna66 on 3/11/10


Donna66, kathr4453, mima:

The problem with your understanding of the Rom 7 passage is that it shows a lack of power over sin, or the flash. Which contradicts chapter 6 entirely.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/11/10

Mark_Eaton, I don't read Romans 7 the way you do. I see Paul after telling us Romans 6, actually using himself as an example of one crucified with Christ, what to experiences under Grace. and to Jews that they are no longer under Law, but now married to another and expected to BRING FORTH FRUIT, the fruit of what? The fruit of the Spirit. Who will deliver me is his pointing BACK TO Romans 6. He's just explaining it in practical terms we can understand .. Now he goes on to chapter 8, walking in the spirit...
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


Donna66, kathr4453, mima:

The problem with your understanding of the Rom 7 passage is that it shows a lack of power over sin, or the flash. Which contradicts chapter 6 entirely. Now we know that the Bible does not contradict itself so we must not understanding the passage correctly.

You all agree that Paul is not describing himself before salvation. Why? Because of the way he acted before salvation. But is that not true of all of us? Were we not brash and unrepentant before salvation? Its only now, on the other side of grace, can we see that the two sides of ourselves warred against each other. We were powerless to do right, even when we wanted to. We were controlled by sin, even though we did not want to be.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/11/10


BruceB, Exactly, not sure it would get you past heaven's gate without Christ in you.

Imputed Righteousness is not your new Birth or Christ in you. It is God declaring you NOT GUILTY. Then we enter and New and living way, through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH..Hebrews 10. Not only are we In Christ then but He is in us.

Paul states we are justified by His Blood, and SAVED by His LIFE..His Risen life in us.

Many plead the blood, but don't have His Risen life. Just as many left Egypt(under the blood) but never entered the promised land. Christ in you and you in Him is our Promised land.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


Mima, thank you for saying that. It makes all this patient effort worth while when someone acknowledges they understand what you are saying.


I so love the scripture Donna66 brought forward. In my flesh dwelleth NO GOOD thing, never has, never will. Paul could not find a remedy for the flesh one way or anotherlaw or spirit. If we walk in the spirit we are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is so clear. The Blood of Jesus certainly washed away our sin, but it didnt wash away our old man sin nature.

And donna66 is correct that Romans 7 is not Paul before conversion. Phil 3 make that clear. Paul thought himself BLAMELESS before conversion under the law, stating no such struggle.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


---Donna66 on 3/11/10 and ---kathr4453 on 3/11/10 I do so agree with both of you in your answers to this question!
---mima on 3/11/10


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Mark Eaton--- Paul was certainly not writing this before his conversion!
NOR was he reflecting back on his state BEFORE conversion.

Before he met Jesus, There's no way that the following would make any sense to him:
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not (Rom 7:18)

This was not his state of mind before conversion. For while he was having Christians tortured and killed he
He was convinced he was doing something good.

This being the case, and since he is speaking in the first person, present tense, it is only logical that he is describing his current internal struggle as a Christian.
---Donna66 on 3/11/10


MarkV, are you saying that Paul was lying when he said the Spirit of the life of Christ SET HIM FREE from the law of sin and death?

AND, Doesn't Romans 8:11-13 say that the Spirit is MORTIFYING( putting to death) the deeds of the body here and now?

John says the NEW MAN BORN AGAIN CANNOT SIN.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here is PROOF we have two natures, our OLD that sins, and the NEW that cannot sin, the struggle within our TWO NATURES!

Those who dont understand this ALSO believe in sinless perfection, the other end of the spectrum.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


-- Kathr :

MarkV, if our old man is being transformed, then WHY was it CRUCIFIED with Christ? How can you transform something that is dead? -- Kathr on 3/11/10

"Romans 7 is telling us Christians have TWO natures. Our natural man/Adam1/flesh/old man -- Kathr on 3/10/10"

Sister, Make up your mind, b/c your still serving two masters/two natures, if your old man's not dead & crucified with Christ !!

We're TRANSFORMED by our old man being dead & crucified with Christ, and that's what MarkV was sharing when he stated "We're NOT AN OLD NATURE and ALSO A NEW NATURE .. make CONVERSION look like it was ADDITION rather then TRANSFORMATION. on 3/10/10"
---Shawn.M.T on 3/11/10


Yes michael_e I did. My sin murdered Him, and being a Jew, there too.

But as a Born Again Jew, and a member of the Church, His Body, crucified with Christ, and raised up together with HIM in Heavenly places in Christ, as Peter said...are a SPIRITUAL Habitation, Jesus being the chief corner stone, Praise God I didn't stumble at the preaching of the CROSS. I believe Paul also preached this??


Ephesians 2:20 PAUL
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

1 Peter 2:6 PETER
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


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kathr4453 on 3/11/10 michael_e, are you saying Paul never baptized?
I did not say that, but I will say, he did baptise early in his ministry. But he let us know how important water baptism was
"I was not sent to baptise"
Paul speaks of the one Baptism that counts, and it along with the BOC can't be found anyplace in scripture.

Kath, did you murder your messiah? Peter said you did if you adhere to Acts 2:22 Acts 3:12
Do you find language like this in Paul's letters?
---michael_e on 3/11/10


Markv, your last post is Paul addressing the two natures that we as Christians have until we die. The one wars against the other.

But you said we don't have 2 natures when clearly Paul is stating in fact that we do have 2 natures.

Brother, I am not sure why you don't see this, but I pray now that you do understand that we do.
Our old nature does not die until we die. BUT by the Holy spirit, Paul tells us we can bring the old nature under subjection to the new nature which is Christ in us.
---miche3754 on 3/11/10


Michael_e, so what Gospel is Peter preaching if not the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and WHY we identify with Him in death and resurrection life. HE totally compliments Pauls Romans 6-8!

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1st Peter 4:12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Are JEWs excluded from the Church? Gentiles only? Hummm!
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. What rightly we say say then? Will we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! How could we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 8:2+ 6:1,2. It is clear that saint Paul was indeed converted to sainthood and no longer served sin and persecuted the body of Christ, but now was wholly serving Christ and preaching Christ and leading others to Christ, and also wrote a large part of the inspirited holy scriptures.
---Eloy on 3/11/10


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kathr4453 & Cluny,

Do you believe we can enter the Kingdom of God... without Christ in us? How far would "imputation of His righteousness" get us, past Heaven's gates, if Christ weren't in us?

To "impute" righteousness means to place righteousness on account. To balance our account, our iniquity is imputed to Christ. Without the imputed righteousness of Christ, iniquity remains on our account, by default. Our account is reconciled when we accept Christ into us.

All that's left for us to do, after this, is to maintain our account balance, by keeping Christ in us... through our faith.

1Jo 5:4 ...and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
---BruceB on 3/11/10


Romans 7:18'
"For I know (Paul speaking) that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells, for to will is present with me, (the will to do good by the Spirit). but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will too do, I do not do, (He wants to do the will of God always but cannot). verse 22, "For I delight in the law of God (only believers delight in the law of God) according to the inner man. But I see another law in my members, wearing against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." So long as he lives he will struggle with the law of sin until the day he receives the glorified body promised to all believers.
---MarkV. on 3/11/10


michael_e, are you saying Paul never baptized?

Acts 19:3-6

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them, and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


kathr4453 on 3/11/10 Please tell me, if Peter and the other Apostles were not of the Church, to what and who do they belong?
I will answer YOUR questions.
The 12 absolutely belonged to the jewish +proselytes assembly headquartered at jerusalem, still living under law.
I don't see the 12 emphasizing a belief in the death burial and resurrection for salvation.
Acts 2:36-38.. you murdered your messiah.. ..what should we do?.. repent and be baptised..
Any language like this in Paul's letters?
Jesus told the 12 they would rule over the 12 tribes. Matt.19
The 12 and the Naton of Israel has their place. read ex.19:6
---michael_e on 3/11/10


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We are not an old nature and also a new nature and make conversion look like it was addition rather then transformation.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10

MarkV, if our old man is being transformed, then WHY was it CRUCIFIED with Christ? How can you transform something that is dead?

Because you don't understand what Born Again means, you completely miss out on the Born Again experience being the NEW BIRTH of our NEW NATURE. Our old adam was not reborn. Our old adam was crucified. Our New Nature is NO Longer I but Christ in me....the hope of GLORY.

1st Cor 15 says we must PUT ON the incorruptible...who IS CHRIST, not transform the corruptible. The New Man will be Glorified together with Christ..
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


Mark E, you're right on Rom. 6:6 we should no longer be slaves to sin. If you are a believer you are no longer a slave to sin, we are free. You are also right on Rom. 6:12 Do not let sin reign in your body. All beleivers are, with the help of the Spirit trying their best to not let sin reign in their body. Which means sin is still in their body. Paul after explaining verse 6:17 you mentioned, He says in verse 19:
"I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for holiness" Those are instructions given to believers who are not slaves anymore.
---MarkV. on 3/11/10


I actually like the KJV of this verse.


Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The answer is in Romans 8:10.
Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: RIGHT NOW we have been translated out of this present evil age!

Colossians 3:1-4 YE ARE DEAD and your life IS ( Present tense) hidden with God in Christ, In Heavenly Places NOW as we speak! Eph 1!!
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


There was no such conflict in Paul before he met Jesus!
---Donna66 on 3/10/10

I agree Donna, but He is not writing this before He met Jesus.

The key to this passage is v13.

Rom 7:13 "Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin..."

Paul is asking the question 'did the Law cause the death?' but answers his own question by describing how sin is the cause of death and not the Law, even though he could follow the Law with his mind.

If you skip from v13 to Chapter 8 verse 1, you see the commection. Sin caused the death not the Law, and therefore we in Christ are not condemned because our sin is forgiven and forgotten.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/11/10


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Michael_e. The Kingdom to be restored to Israel Jesus told them in Acts 1:6 & 7 would not be fulfilled at this time, only the Father knows, and that will be at the return of Jesus Christ in all His Glory. All the Apostles heard what Jesus said, therefore did not disobey and preach the Kingdom to Israel at Pentecost.

Acts 1-2 opens with Peter preaching the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was preaching to those who knew of John's preaching, however John said Jesus would be the one giving the Holy Spirit.

I don't see anywhere Paul converted Peter or any of the other apostles.

Please tell me, if Peter and the other Apostles were not of the Church, to what and who do they belong?
---kathr4453 on 3/11/10


some change the meaning of words to fit what they think or have been taught.

2 pet 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
---michael_e on 3/11/10


Good point MarkV.

Saul or Paul (he never did change his name) was not great, he was blessed.
---John on 3/10/10


Rom 7:18 For I know that in me that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Somehow I don't see how Paul could say THIS about himself as an UN-believer.
No. Scripture is clear about what Paul was like BEFORE his encounter with Jesus!

Act 9:1 And Saul.. yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord...
How could he have POSSIBLY said (Rom 7:17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me?

There was no such conflict in Paul before he met Jesus!
Christians may claim that they do not sin but the whole world sees plainly that they do!
---Donna66 on 3/10/10


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MarkV:

The last verse v25 reads "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.".

How can this be the apostle Paul's situation? Letting his body serve sin and serving God with his mind?

Did we not read Rom 6:6 "...we should no longer be slaves of sin"

Did we not read Rom 6:12 "...do not let sin reign in your body..."

Did we not read Rom 6:17 "...you became obedient from the HEART..."

No, Paul did not allow his body to serve sin and he did not only serve God with his mind, but he served God fully with his heart. He was not this conflicted man of Romans 7 after salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/10/10


Mark E, sorry to disagree with you on this one. Actually verse 22.25, say,
"O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" Every single believer and none believer has a physical body that will die. The genuine believer's body will be change when it is glorified by,
"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!" It will be God through faith in Jesus Christ that his body will be changed. After explaining about his physical body, he then says,
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
We are not an old nature and also a new nature and make conversion look like it was addition rather then transformation.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10


Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It would seem some here want to start silly arguments over words FOUND IN SCRIPTURE. Why because they don't read the Bible.

Now if Calvin understood these two natures he never would have murdered. He was living a self righteous life out of his flesh...

Calvinism denies the Power of the Cross, or that our old man..ALL OF US were at one time who were children of wrath by NATURE.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


\\It is Christ in us which imputes His righteous to us.
---BruceB on 3/10/10\\

Not imputing trespasses is NOT the same thing as imputing righteousness.

This is like saying a teacher not counting a failing test grade against a student is the same as giving that student an A+ on the test in question.
---Cluny on 3/10/10


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Rom 7:14-25 is a hypothetical discussion from Paul on what happens to people before they are saved.

This is not a discussion of what happens to a believer. Look at the very end of the passage. Paul asks "Who will set me free from this body of death"? Why God and Jesus will.

This is the truth of salvation, not the christian walk. We have been set free, remember Rom 6:7? "He who has died has been freed from sin". We who are saved are already free. We are not under the law of sin and death. Jesus has already given us victory over sin and death.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/10/10


---kathr4453 on 3/10/10 Are you suggesting the epistles of John, James, Hebrews Peter, dont apply in any way to us. I see they ALL Compliment Pauls epistles, not contradict them.
Not for doctrine, do you see the body of Christ mentioned anywhere other than Paul?

The only place I see Paul's epistles mentioned is 2 pet 3, late in Peter's life, if Paul wasn't saying something different, why did peter have a problem with it?
Isrsel, looking for an earthly kingdom(acts 1:6)
Body of Christ, made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Peter preaching (acts 3:21)
Paul preaching (Rom. 16:25)
If things are different they are not the same.

---michael_e on 3/10/10


Michael_e,

Are you suggesting two entirely different gospels were going on in Acts. Paul declares the Gospel of Grace in 1st Corinthians 15:1-4. This gospel is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So was the preaching at Pentecost. Peter took the GOSPEL to Cornelius showing Peter and Company that Gentiles were in fact offered the Gospel of GRACE. However, Paul was the official apostle to the Gentiles. God revealed to Paul the MYSTERY ,Christ in you, of which we are speaking of here, the POWER of the Cross, and life on the resurrection side.

Are you suggesting the epistles of John, James, Hebrews Peter, dont apply in any way to us. I see they ALL Compliment Pauls epistles, not contradict them.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


Rhonda, a very good explanation sister. There is no question about those passages. This words "old nature" and now a "new nature" is something that some bring up because they think no one knows the Word of God and they can conjure up their own meanings to words. Thank God for the Spirits discernment.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10


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It is Christ in us which imputes His righteous to us.
---BruceB on 3/10/10

Bruce imputed righteousness is not our growing up into HIM called sanctification.

Imputed Righteousness is God declaring you righteous the moment you place your faith in Jesus Christ. It's called JUSTIFICATION.

Sanctification of which Paul is preaching in Romans 6-8 is the very PERSON of Christ in you, and we are partakers of HIS DIVINE NATURE through FAITH in His PROMISE(S)...2nd Peter 1. which calls for OBEDIENCE of faith, surrendering your members now alive from the dead.


We live out HIS DIVINE NATURE, via Calvary, via HIS RESURRECTION LIFE in us. God does not IMPUTE Jesus resurrection life in us.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


On the day of Pentecost 3000 were added to the CHURCH. The Church began at Pentecost, not with Paul.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10
You have the right to opinion but,
Can you show me where chief means worst?
Can you show me out of the 3000 how many were not jews or prosolytes?
Can you tell me what they were repenting of?
Why would the Jewish prophet Joel say to The nation of israel, that these are the last days(Acts 2:17)if it is the start of something?
How much of the book of Acts do you use for your doctrine?
Last question, Why Paul?

---michael_e on 3/10/10


Again I strongly agree with MarkV statements made in answer to this question.
---mima on 3/10/10


1John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

religious christianity uses its false ministers to promote and sell a lie that sin has been mysteriously taken or abolished from a "christian"

which explains why so many "christians" gloat about their pious lives while committing sins in private

Paul was explaining documenting his sin to let True Christians know then and now even as an Apostle chosen by Christ Paul was fighting sin everyday
---Rhonda on 3/10/10


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Paul says there are 2 natures..
Romans 7:25
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

He is saying that even though we are saved, we can still commit sin if we are not watchful and yielding our members to God.
He is saying that we will stumble and fall because we have not received our glorified bodies.
He even tells us which ever part we feed will live- Romans 8. which do you "feed" or "sow" to? The spirit or the flesh.
---miche3754 on 3/10/10


1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them: and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


It is Christ in us which imputes His righteous to us.
---BruceB on 3/10/10


That brings up an interesting subject already discussed. Fornication. We see in Rev 2 a reference to fornication. Actually, there is no such thing as spiritual fornication, but having fellowship with those who claim to be Christians but are not are warned. These are those who want to live with Jesus, without any commitment, no TRUE marriage contract. Hebrews calls these illegitimate children. When one claims to be a Christian, having never identified with Christ in death and resurrection life, they really are not ONE in the most pure sense of the word, and cannot KNOW Christ in the most pure way. Romans 7:4=marriage!
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10

HHMMM
---francis on 3/10/10


Romans 7 is a bridge between Romans 6 and 8...

Even though man placed his letters in chapters and verses God did no such thing.

Chapter 6, Crucified with Christ..Chapter 7 Explains our old man verses the New Man struggle. Never does Paul teach the old man is made over...he is crucified with Christ, and the one NEW MAN, Eph 2, is New Creature Created IN Christ. Old things pass away ALL things become NEW. However we are always carrying about our old nature, and will until the Lord comes and we are Glorified together with Him...this is why Paul said I DIE DAILY.

Galatains 2:20 Paul is re-iterating again this very same fact. The old man cannot live the life of Grace, only the New Creature can via CALVARY.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


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False teachers always try to change the meaning that God wants to convey. God has one meaning only and many applications for each passage. Romans 7:14-25 is not talking about the Cross in any sense of the word but of himself. Paul uses the present tense verbs in vv. 14-25 which strongly supports the idea that he is describing his life currently as a Christian. For those reasons, it is certain that chapter 7 decribes a believer. The personal pronoun "I" refers to the apostle Paul, a standard of spiritual health and maturity. So in vv. 14-25 Paul is describing all Christians even the most spiritual and mature-who, when they honestly evaluate themselves against the righteous standard of God's law, realize how far short they fall.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10


Mima, Donna66 is correct. Paul knew the sin in him. He was not preaching the cross but about himself.
The Bible never uses the term "Old nature" that's not all, it never uses "New nature" either. Those terms are something someone conjured up. There is a severe problem call "epistemological" inherent in that view. The problem with that view is it makes salvation "addition". In other words, when I got saved, nothing happened to me, lets say, old nature, I just get something else. So salvation is not transformation. It's addition. So nothing changed. But the Bible says, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation" it's got to be Metamorphosis, Transformation.
---MarkV. on 3/10/10


That makes Paul the Chief(headman or first) sinner saved under the gospel of Grace(1Cor15:1-4)And he can say "follow me as I folllow Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1)
---michael_e on 3/10/10


michael_e, Paul was not the first man saved under the gospel of grace. Have you forgotten Paul persecuted the Church? He says chief in reference that he wasted the church, was a murderer.

On the day of Pentecost 3000 were added to the CHURCH. The Church began at Pentecost, not with Paul.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


On the contrary, he establishes his sinlessness after being saved lit.Gk: "...Christ Jesus came into the world sinners to save, being prominent was I...Pretend then I do that which I should not, I confess that the law right. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me: truly then I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to perform that which is good I find not: for the good that I want to do I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now pretend I do what I should not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me." Please Read- Romans 8:2.
---Eloy on 3/10/10


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His statement of " chief sinner" seem to have been related to his percecution of the church/ christ.

Here are some statement by paul after his conversion:

Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
---francis on 3/10/10


That brings up an interesting subject already discussed. Fornication. We see in Rev 2 a reference to fornication. Actually, there is no such thing as spiritual fornication, but having fellowship with those who claim to be Christians but are not are warned. These are those who want to live with Jesus, without any commitment, no TRUE marriage contract. Hebrews calls these illegitimate children. When one claims to be a Christian, having never identified with Christ in death and resurrection life, they really are not ONE in the most pure sense of the word, and cannot KNOW Christ in the most pure way. We know this is one sided, and Jesus never takes residence in someone who has not submitted to the cross.

Romans 7:4=marriage!
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


kathr4453 on 3/10/10
Paul confesses he is teh worst of sinners

I usally agree with you post, and at one time I would have agreed with this statement, but no where in the NT does chief mean worst, it means head man or first.
EX.chief cornerstone, chief priest, chief speaker etc.
That makes Paul the Chief(headman or first) sinner saved under the gospel of Grace(1Cor15:1-4)And he can say "follow me as I folllow Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1)
---michael_e on 3/10/10


So, no mima, Paul is not telling of his committing sin in Romans 7. He's not even excusing sin. He's telling us Jesus came to DELIVER our old sin man from sin. He's teaching the doctrine of the CROSS. It begins in Romans 6 and concludes in Romans 8.

1st Timothy 1:15 is talking about SALVATION, that Jesus came to SAVE Sinners. Paul confesses he is teh worst of sinners.

Romans 7 Jesus came to DELIVER sinners from the Power of sin.

Two entirely different subjects.
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


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I too agree with Donna and Kath on this.
Keep it up ladies, ya'll are doing a great job!
---miche3754 on 3/10/10


I agree with Donna66 on 3/08/2010.

Romans 7 is telling us we now as Christians have TWO natures. our natural man/Adam1/flesh/old man..are all names for this same condition called sin.

Paul concludes.Oh wretched man that I am...referring to his old adam nature.. WHO will deliver me from the body of this DEATH. You see, Paul already told us in Romans 6 our old man is crucified with Christ...Christ Delivers by our identification with Him in death...leading now to Resurrection life In Him. His Resurrection life DELIVERS. Now we move on to Romans 8...walking in the Spirit...
---kathr4453 on 3/10/10


I strongly agree with what MarkV says.
---mima on 3/10/10


Joseph, Paul was speaking of sin within in him. If I am regenerated and if I'm a new creation, and God has fitted me for eternity, and He has planted the life of God in my soul, that life has to be perfect, right? Because God cannot give me imperfect life, He cannot give me imperfect regeneration, He cannot give me imperfect righteousness. So that if I am righteous at all, I am righteous period, and that is true. That's why Romans 7 is the key, Paul says, "It is not I that sin, it is sin that is in me. It is not that new creation, it is the sin that is in me" Now what is that sin in me? It's his humanness. Paul says, you are a perfect new creation, but sin that is in you, in your humanness still manifest itself.
---MarkV. on 3/9/10


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Josef -- You say, Sadly for Paul, by his statement, he appears to have viewed himself a sinner. If only he understood these statements, he may have viewed himself differently..

Who MADE these statements? (the ones you cite). Every single one was written by Paul himself in his own epistles!
Do you think he didn't understand what he himself taught?

Paul was a Christian who was beset at times by sin. Since he caused the death of many Christians before his conversion, he could easily call himself "chief of sinners".

Your post reaffirms the truth that Paul,a saint who guided many early churches, was not, himself, perfect.
---Donna66 on 3/9/10


Paul is saying he is not perfect, and neither are we, but he is a pattern for the Body of Christ to follow The Lord

1 Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Thess. 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you,

2 Thess. 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us
---michael_e on 3/9/10


I notice that, when Paul writes to Christians, he calls us "saints", not "sinners". And the Holy Spirit calls us "children of God", in 1 John 3:1. Paul says he is "chief" of sinners. Possibly "chief" means Paul is above sinners, to help them get what they need (Acts 26:17-18). Or Paul could mean that in a literary way, referring to who he once was. But, after he became a *new person* in Christ, he was not the greatest of sinners, then, I offer. But Barnabas and Paul had a "sharp" "contention" (Acts 15:36-41) and split up. Fighting with another Christian is sinning. And both men were chosen by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:2).
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/9/10


The bible makes it absolutely clear that people still sin after becoming saved. Jesus is the only one who lived a sinless life. Even after becoming a born-again Christian we are tempted and sometimes succumb to that temptation. The bible tells us that, when this happens, we can go to the Father, through Jesus, for forgiveness if we are truly repentant.
---RitaH on 3/9/10


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Mima
Please read scripture in context. there is a huge danger in picking a choosing as you may see by your question.
reading Word context will give you the answer.
---willow on 3/9/10


Paul did sin after conversion. Everyone does. No one can escape the temptations of the flesh whether in mind or action. It is not our habit anymore for we are free from the chains of sin. Our spirit cannot sin anymore but our flesh can. Paul struggled a whole lot himself.
---Bobby1 on 3/9/10


Romans 7:23, about the 'sinful member' (re-phrased) is probably the best way of thinking about it. We are all naturally sinful, Paul speaks of others (like Peter when he shunned the gentiles) as doing wrong. You can argue that he was not sinning, but I prefer to take it that he, though he did not desire to sin, still had his still-sinful nature, and ended up sinning when he did not desire (in his heart) to do so. Maybe not a good way of saying it, but it's the best way for me to explain it
---peter3594 on 3/9/10


Sadly for Paul, by his statement, he appears to have viewed himself a sinner. If only he understood these statements, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." And " 'He' [the Father] hath made 'Him' [Jesus] [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." Now being "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, [I possess] the righteousness which is from God by faith," he may have viewed himself differently.
---Josef on 3/9/10


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only God knows,jesus chose paul. but in romans paul is speaking about his flesh being in direct opposition to his spirit.In timothy paul may have been thinking of his persecution of christians before his conversion,there are others I believe in romans where he states this fact,as a human being though knowing you are forgiven,would you not also have regrets such as pauls?
---tom2 on 3/9/10


God's word says there is no one righteous, all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Our righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. No one can keep the 10 Commandments. This is why Christ came and died, to pay our sin debt in full. We are saved by GRACE and not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8)
Yes, the apostle Paul sinned his whole life, the same as you and I do. But God is faithful to forgive when we repent and promises to remember those sins no more. Where sin abounds, more grace is given.
---eric on 3/9/10


That is what he is saying
1 Timothy 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
--not 'of whom I was chief'
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
---MIchael on 3/8/10




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