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Face Of The Water Genesis

What is "the face of the waters" a reference to in Genesis 1:2?

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Strongax, The Scripture was written in the Middle East in ancient Hebrew from the 36th century B.C. by Henoch in 3507 B.C. The recent find of dead sea scrolls include heretical writings not of the Hebrew Tanakh, and are not holy and not be relied upon, just as the apocrypha and mythologies and other fables must be rejected. The Aleppo Codex is the oldest known complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible, handwritten in Tiberias of Palestine in the early 10th cetury around 915 A.D. by the scribe Shlomo Ben-Buya'a. It is the most authoritative manuscript of the Massoretic text of the Bible, the most accurate, and scred source document. It has greater spiritual and scholarly importance than any other manuscript of the Old Testament.
---Eloy on 3/16/10


lionel,
I think I see where some of our misunderstanding is.
Gen 1:1-5 explains the first day. Before Gen 1:1(before day one), there was nothing but God, that is why Gen 1:1 says 'In the beginning God created', the beginning being day 1, not day 0 nor day -1.
God being infinite has no time barrier, so before day 1, the beginning of time, Gen 1:1, there was nothing but God.
I apologize for not stating that clearly before.
as far as generations...
Luke 3:23-38 has a geneology of Christ, 76 Generations from God to Christ.
Next, Isotopic dating processes are very inacurate.
Gen 1:1 and 1:2 were the same day.
We can discuss any of this in detail at any time, thank you.
---MIchael on 3/15/10


Is it safe to say then kathr4453 that you do not believe Gen 1 as it is written?
---MIchael on 3/15/10


Some would have you believe on nothing but their speculations.
In the beginning, God (Genesis 1:1) These was a time, if time could be called. In the unity of His nature (subsisting equally in three Divine persons) dwelt all alone. There was no heaven, there was no earth, there was no angels, no universe, there was nothing, no one, but God. Not only for a day, but from everlasting. Self-contained, self-sufficient, self-satisfied, and never in need of nothing. That is the God that Scripture presents. God was under no constraint or obligation nor necessity to create. That He chose to do so was purely a sovereign act on His part.
---MarkV. on 3/15/10


In the Genesis story, I dont see the earth created in 1-6 days. The first day was light shouldnt the first day be earth? I believe the earth and planets etc already existed...
---kathr4453 on 3/15/10


As some have suggested, let's ignore the verse numbers. 'Then God said, "Let there be light", and...'(NASB) Surely if there was a gap we'd be reading 'A long while afterwards God said, "Let there be light", and...'? And if light hadn't existed, as you also suggested, why would God not have said 'Let there be darkness that people would see the contrast with the Light'?
---simon7348 on 3/15/10




I wonder... If I viewed the evidence and was told only of the (secular) evolution view, I suspect I'd accept it to be correct (I mean, I wouldn't be alive long enough to test the theory out fully). Equally, if I viewed the evidence and was told only of the Biblical view, I suspect I'd accept this to be correct. It's difficult to imagine because I've had input from both sides.

For example... Is a glass half-full or half-empty? If there is no evidence that it was ever full you'd assume it was only half-full. But what if a straw was used and the liquid on the sides had drained down? Without being there at the pouring, you might never know.
---simon7348 on 3/15/10


In the Genesis story, I dont see the earth created in 1-6 days. The first day was lightshouldnt the first day be earth? I believe the earth and planets etc already existed. I dont believe God sat in a dark vacuum black hole for a bazillion years before He did anything. I also believe because God IS LIGHT, that light already existed a bazillion years before earth. DARKNESS fell upon it.and the first day God said Let there be LIGHTYou see, there is no such thing as Darkness. Darkness is the absence of light. Somewhere something happened and darkness fell upon the earthJust as SIN brought darkness to the soul of man through sin. When Jesus came, HE was/is the Light of the WORLD.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/10


Warwick:
On 3/12/10 Why is lionel so ADAMAT to put a gap between 1:1-1:2(not me the word).
Seems I'am not alone,a fews others on this topic also.
Could it be ADAMAT in reverse?
3/15/10
---lionel on 3/15/10


Eloy:

The Old Testament is a collection of separate documents, each written on a separate scroll, all originally written centuries before Jesus was born.

The Dead Sea Scrolls is a library of scrolls dated as having been written between 150BC and 70BC, and discovered in the last century. As I have repeatedly pointed out, some of these scrolls are ACTUAL copies of ALL OLD TESTAMENT BOOKS but Esther, the same books we use - and are several hundred years older than our "best" manuscripts. I am not talking about the non-biblical manuscripts, just the actual old testament books.

So, please tell me why we should consider old testament manuscripts written in 500AD superior to manuscripts of the SAME BOOKS written in 100BC.
---StrongAxe on 3/14/10


Eloy:

You wrote:
The original Holy Scripture in the Holy Bible was written in the Middle East in ancient Hebrew from the 36th century B.C. by Henoch in 3507 B.C.

This would mean the Old Testament was complete BEFORE Noah's flood! I have avoided personal comments in the past, but such a belief is seriously delusional.

The Old Testament is full of historical comments like "Moses did this", all in the PAST tense. If Enoch wrote about these BEFORE they happened, his accounts would be lies, since the events had not happened yet.

Jesus said Moses wrote the Law (Mark 10:5, John 5:46). If you say Enoch wrote it, you call Jesus a liar.
---StrongAxe on 3/15/10




Simon, well put! You get my vote.

I can never understand how any Christian can hold to beliefs which are in opposition to what God's word clearly says, in Romans 5:12-21 and elsewhere.
---Warwick on 3/15/10


Michael:
On3/12/10 you said there was nothing here but God in Gen.1:1.
The first day of creation as you say was Gen.1:2 where we find the spirit moving on water that had not yet been created.
Unless it must have already been created in Gen.1:1.
Better steel tell me how the water got there?
How many generations from day 6 of what YOU say is the the beginings of creations,until Jesus?
If God no if God created the H E in the begining,which ever dateing prosess you accept I am quit sure it would come to more than 10,000 years old(some say millions billions).
Would that mean the earth which was create to be inhabited in 1:1 just sat idle until 1:2?
Help me understand thanks.
---lonel on 3/15/10


Warwick:
On 3/12/10 Why is lionel so ADAMAT to put a gap between 1:1-1:2(not me the word).
Seems I'am not alone,a fews others on this topic also.
Could it be ADAMAT in reverse?
3/15/10
---lionel on 3/15/10


Although-water is 'without form',God is Spirit.Our spirit returns to the One who gave it.I see this to be we are spirit- first.
Gen1:3
And God said "Let there be light":and there(was-hayah)light.
Wisdom:Prov:22-30
Prov8:22-30
The Lord possessed me In The Beginning of His way,Before His works of old.I Was set up from Everlasting,from The Beginning,Or ever The Earth WAS..When no depths,I was brought forth,When No fountains abounding With Water,Before the mountains were Settled,Before the hills...
Before...
vs 30
Then I was by Him,One brought up,And I Was daily delight...Jn1:1 In the Beginning was the WORD...Gen1:4
And God saw the Light was GOOD:and God Divided the light from the darkness.
Jn8:12
---char on 3/14/10


Strongax, Let me reiterate, there are many writngs in the world, like dead sea scrolls, but there is only one Holy Writ which was written many generations before and long long before any heretical clay copied from them and placed them in the clefts of the dead sea. Strongax, if you find life in your dead sea writings, then depend upon them, but if not then I strongly suggest that you return to the only proven holy scripture, namely the Holy Bible, for only the words from God will bring eternal life, and all unholy bibles and writings from religions and cults formed by man will inevitably end in death.
---Eloy on 3/14/10


The original Holy Scripture in the Holy Bible was written in the Middle East in ancient Hebrew from the 36th century B.C. by Henoch in 3507 B.C., which is long long before any person copied from them and taylored them and placed them in clefts of the dead sea. (ref: Gen.5:1,24+ Ex.17:14+ 31:18+ 32:15,16,19+ 34:1,4,27-29+ Deut.6:4-9).
---Eloy on 3/14/10


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kathr4453,
I must disagree with you on a few points here.
It is written(Gen 1:31) that after God created everything, He pronounced it 'very good' thus to say that it was sinless at that time to me. I cannot imagine rebellion anywhere in His creation on or before the 6th day. True Lucifer and his minions must have been created 'in the beginning', but their rebellion had to have taken place after the 6th day, before the temptation.
All of your other statements seem to fit scripture based on my understanding at this time. Do these statements sound reasonable to you according to scripture?
---MIchael on 3/13/10


So we know that sin entered the universe before man, because sin entered the Garden. I believe SIN is what happened between Genesis 1:1-2.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/10


Have you not read in the New Testament... Romans 5 v12-21?
---simon7348 on 3/13/10


Thanks guys for your additions.
This will continue to be a beautiful subject.
Gen1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Jn1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

lionel,
study-have fellowship-trust the Holy Spirit.
---char on 3/13/10


Eloy:

I mentioned that the Dead Sea Scrolls included some other ancient non-Biblical writings, but said no more about them. I concentrated on the actual old testament manuscripts that they also contained. Or are you trying to tell me that manuscripts of the old testament found in the Dead Sea Scrolls are counterfeits themselves?

If so, can you give me any logical reason why we should trust old testament manuscripts from 500AD as being more reliable than those from 100BC?

Also, by that argument, how could we trust ANY Bible manuscripts we have at all, since the devil could easily have counterfeited any of them?
---StrongAxe on 3/13/10


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lionel, I too believe something happened between Genesis 1:1 and 2.

We are told in scripture the Angels were with God when the foundation of the earth was laid. Therefore Angels existed with God before the Earth. There is nothing in the 6 days about the creation of Angels either. So we know that sin entered the universe before man, because sin entered the Garden. I believe SIN is what happened between Genesis 1:1-2. Also note that Adam/Eve were restricted to the Garden ONLY, a very small piece of HIGHLY PROTECTED real-estate, yet sin /evil was allowed to enter.

In the NEW Heaven and Earth..nothing EVIL will be able to enter in says Revelation. Why? Because Satan and all the fallen angels will have been forever dealt with.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/10


2/2
Also lionel to try to answer your questions,
Gen 1:1a In the beginning, God--before day one of creation there was only God.
Nothing was in existence before Gen 1:2 exept God, a liquid Earth, empty space(heavens), and time(day one)
Remember, no matter which view, at Gen 1:2 the Earth was empty.
There is every indication that Gen 1:3-31 was not recreation by verb tense and usage.
God did create the Earth as it is written, formless(as liquid is) to shape it to His will, void(empty) to fill it with His glory, and in darkness to show the true Light.
It is evident in the remaining verses of Ch 1 that God did light it, shape it, and fill it, not only Earth, but all the heavenly host.
---MIchael on 3/12/10


strongax, as I have already stated, ancient writing is not the equivalent to holy scripture, and neither is a counterfeit equal to the original. Recall that the deceiver was in the garden of Eden with the first humans: The holy word dictated: "Of the tree of knowledge of good and bad see that you eat not: for even the same day you eat, of it you will, dying you will die." Gen.2:17. Then the Unholy word dictated: "You will not die by death." Gen.3:4. Both ancient words were found in the garden with the humans: yet one ancient word was holy, and the other ancient word was unholy. There are many different kinds of writings in the world, yet there is only one Holy Bible.
---Eloy on 3/13/10


Lionel you are adamant that there is a time-gap between Genesis 1:1 and 2. On what Scripture do you base this?

Even though the verb 'hayah' can mean 'became' in some contexts this cannot be so here as it is combined with the 'vav' disjunctive. In all the OT vav + a noun plus hayah, is always translated 'was' or 'came' but never 'became.'

There is constant talk of Lucifer's flood which is nowhere mentioned in Scripture. Conversely Noah's flood is given 3 chapters and also mentioned by Jesus and the apostles.
---Warwck on 3/13/10


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1/2
lionel, char is correct in saying study for yourself.
Although bara' only means make fat-fill in the infinitive tense and is only used once this way in scripture.
Now bara' in Gen 1:1 is perfect tense with God as the subject, which means create, shape, or form translated in this tense as create 42 times.
hayah can be translated from to be or to become, so in this sense it would be our preconceived notions that would only imply one over the other, but since there is little else to hold on to, the gap theory cannot change this translation from 'was' to 'became'.
---MIchael on 3/12/10


Char:

You where able to understand what Iwas saying.

That the earth became with out form and void,in darkness.

Was not so in the benining,because God created every thing in the BEGINING Good.

There is a period of time between Gen.1:1,and1:2.
---lionel on 3/12/10


Eloy:

In case you aren't aware of it, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain varous non-bliblical writings, but also contain fragments of manuscripts of every single old testament book (except Esther) - and these manuscripts are dated to around 150-70BC, several hundreds of years before any other manuscripts we have. So whether you like it or not, those particular scrolls are at least as authentic as what we have been using for centuries (if not more so).

I am not speaking about apocrypha or pseudepigraphia here, but actual manuscript copies of the old testament.

And I have not mentioned any addition of letters - the translation I quoted used exactly the same consonants as yours (and I translated it pretty much the same way you did).
---StrongAxe on 3/12/10


And the Spirit of God moved upon the "face of the waters". It seems to be a reference to the Third Person of the Godhead [Job 26:13, Ps. 104:30]. The Spirit is the subject of the verb, which is an active participle that means "hovering over", [Deut. 32:11]. Thus, the Spirit of God is seen hovering over, protecting, and participating in the Creation of God the Father. John 1:1-3 and Colossians !:16 make it clear that more than one person of the Godhead was involved in creation.
---catherine on 3/12/10


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strongax, Not until thousands of years after the first scriptures were penned were the letters masoritized or punctuated for ease of reading. An example of what the original scriptures copied in the Greek looks like can be found online at, mb-soft dot com forward-slash believe forward-slash txh forward-slash version7 dot htm. Where one word or verse ended and another started was left to the discretion of the particular scribe who was copying the scripture. Whenever there are added letters or words to the original text, then there may also be an altering of the verse's definition, but the scribe's work of accenting the scripture may also retain the original meaning of the verse, as is the case in Genesis 1:2.
---Eloy on 3/12/10


I do not want to get off the topic of the meaning of the verses definition. But I have zero faith in any dead sea scrolls or any "other" writings which are produced today. There are too many writings and books which deviate from already established holy scripture, and no Christian needs any "other" outside writings, outside the established holy scripture for their faith, especially when the outside writings are not proven to be "holy" scripture. Not all ancient writing is holy writing from God, for their have been heretical writings since early man began sinning.
---Eloy on 3/12/10


lionel,good questions.
Encourement-study the ancient hebrew,aramaic and greek.Trust Only the Holy Spirit-not me or any other.
Gen1:1
In the beginning God (created-BaRA) the heaven and the earth.
BaRa-In hebrew means-to make fat-fill.
God filled...
Same word in Ps 51:10(12 in the Hebrew)
(Create-baBA)in me a clean heart,O God,and renew a right spirit within me.
Gen1:2 And the earth(was-hayah)without form and void...
Hayah-became or was
And the earth became/was without form...
Exdous20:11
For in six days Jehovah (made-a-sah) heaven and earth....
Different from Gen1:1.
(asah)-a/aleph means: God or father
s/shin-picturegraph-Two teeth means:two or again,chewing-did or made
h/Hey-breath,reveal,look
---char on 3/12/10


I do not want to get off the topic of the meaning of the verses definition. But I have zero faith in any dead sea scrolls or any "other" writings which are produced today. There are too many writings and books which deviate from already established holy scripture, and no Christian needs any "other" outside writings, outside the established holy scripture for their faith, especially when the outside writings are not proven to be "holy" scripture. Not all ancient writing is holy writing from God, for there have been heretical writings since early man began sinning.
---Eloy on 3/12/10


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Eloy:

The Dead Sea Scrolls, from around 100BC, already show spaces between words.

Prefixes like "Le-" (to) are directly added to words that English would use separate words for. For example, the single word "lifnei" is actually two Hebrew words ("Le" (to) + "Panei" (face of)) written together with no space. However, this is just usually translated as "before". "Al-pnei" (whether you think of it as one word or two) is the idiom "upon", since Hebrew also lacks that particular word.

I also have no idea why we're arguing about this, since my translation agreed with you on this issue. In any case, the difference in meaning is very minor.
---StrongAxe on 3/12/10


3-12-2010
First of all than you for the answers.
If GOD created every thing( Heaven,Earth)in the begining.
Did he(GOD)create it first without form and void in darkness?
One more question,is darkness the apsence of God,who is light?

Help me with your to understand thanks
---lionel on 3/12/10


Can any one tell me if there was any thing existing before God created the heaven and earth?
When God said let the earth bring forth,was He creating or calling things that had all ready been created in the begining back into existance?
Thank you for answering these 2 questions.
---lionel on 3/12/10


Lionel I know of nothing in the whole of Scripture which even hints that anything created existed before "In the beginning."

When you read through God's 6-day chronology of creation you see once there was nothing which was created, then God created the heavens and the earth. He created light and caused the dry land to appear. What follows then is a systematic creation of all His creatures. He says this took place over 6 night and day, days and He confirms these are 24hr days in Exodus 20:8-11.

Scripture interprets Scripture.
---Warwick on 3/11/10


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strongax, The original scriptures, like a river, was one flow of letters, with no vowels, spacing, punctuation, chapters, nor numbered verses. The Masoretes added vowels and vowel points and diatrical marks and hyphens to the letters in order to make the scripture more easier for temple reading. We know that the Genesis 1:2 was mistranslated because of the insertion of the three additional words "the face of". You can find the aleppo codex without vowel points online, but it still displays added spacing which the original scripture did not contain. You can also find a segment explaining this fact on the web at mb-soft dot com forward-slash believe forward-slash text forward-slash inerranc dot htm
---Eloy on 3/12/10


Lionel,
Genesis 1:1... "In the beginning God..." Before God created the heavens and the earth, God existed. He is eternal. At the start of time, He created the heavens and the earth (so before this, there was nothing created within our time/space continuum. He created in definite stages (He could have chosen to speak it all forth in the blink of an eye). Just like a masterpiece, the earth is the basic structure, almost like a blank canvas. God created light and "there was evening and there was morning, one day." There we have Day One. What follows is the completion of creation "...and behold, it was very good". On the seventh day, He rested.
---simon7348 on 3/12/10


lionel: I'll answer your two questions. No (at least in this part of the universe)and no!

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast.
---jerry6593 on 3/12/10


Can any one tell me if there was any thing existing before God created the heaven and earth?
When God said let the earth bring forth,was He creating or calling things that had all ready been created in the begining back into existance?
Thank you answering these 2 questions.
---lionel on 3/11/10


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Eloy:

Do you have evidence that the Masoretic Hebrew was actually copied incorrectly? If so, I would be interested in seeing the sources.

In any case, if you read what I wrote, I was actually AGREEING with your translation.
---StrongAxe on 3/11/10


lionel, The question is 'ARE there any thinkers out there?'. If you are going to berate our intelligence, don't show your lack thereof.
Were there plants on Earth before Gen 1:2?
Were there animals on Earth before Gen 1:2?
How about death and suffering before God proclaimed all to be very good in Gen 1:31?
Was there dry land before Gen 1:2?
That is alot of speculation.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
---MIchael on 3/11/10


Lionel, as you have read the Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon defines "'Tohu' as used in Genesis 1:2 as meaning 'formlessness of primaeval earth'- It carries no suggestion of something reduced to a condition of formlessness."

Nowhere in Scripture is there a hint of the Gap/Lucifer's flood etc.

Where in Scriprure is God shown to be a God of "chaos?"

Remember Jesus the Creator (Mark 10:5 says man was made at the beginning of the creation, that which Jesus created, in which He and we live.

In your scenario man appeared long-ages after "the beginning":Jesus says no.

You can believe whatever you like but your ideas are opposed to, and opposed by God's word.
---Warwick on 3/11/10


lionel, if the chaotic were held in stasis, it could be unorganized, but without capacity to be effectual. The Book of Job calls it "frozen". If indeed God organized by concept, there must necessarily have been something conceptualized to bring to order.
---Elaine on 3/11/10


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Lionel, you said, I believe, I believe, but what you are doing is believing on speculation, something that is not written in the Bible. Anyone can do that but it does not mean a thing. sorry to break the high you were in.
---mary on 3/11/10


3-11-10
For those of you who believe that Gen.1:2 is the begining of creation you have missed the boat.
If you can accept the fact that God created this earth out of nothing.Then to accept it already here void and formless,would not that mean He created it out of somethihg choatic rather than out of nothing.

I believe that God in the begiging created heaven and earth PERFECTLY.
I believe something took place to cause it(earth)to become With out form void.
You can behold this cursed as it is now,how much more splended at the begening.
Is there any thinkers out there?
---lionel on 3/11/10


3-11-10
For those of you who believe that Gen.1:2 is the begining of creation you have missed the boat.
If you can accept the fact that God created this earth out of nothing.Then to accept it already here void and formless,would not that mean He created it out of somethihg choatic rather than out of nothing.

I believe that God in the begiging created heaven and earth PERFECTLY.
I believe something took place to cause it(earth)to become With out form void.
You can behold this cursed as it is now,how much more splended at the begening.
Is there any thinkers out there?
---lionel on 3/11/10


lionel,
There is no need to try to add millions of years into the Bible. It doesn't need it.
Your old age foundation is based upon information from inaccurate testing methods (radioisotope dating) that even your teachers got second hand. Please search this out and find the truth here.
I understand tohu and bohu means formless and void respectively.
I also understand that Isa 45:18 says that God created and formed the Earth. What it does not say is that He created already formed. It also says He formed it to be inhabited, thus it was empty(void) when He created it.
Nothing in Gen or Isa says anything about recreating, reforming, or refilling except the misinterpreted word 'replenish' which I have explained on my prior post.
---MIchael on 3/10/10


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Strongax, I have been translating the scriptures for many years. And the part of the verse "moved upon the face", was inaccurately derived at by the scribal masoretes who incorrectly split apart the one hebrew word "ulpny" which literally means "over", into two separate words "ul"-"pny", "upon"-"face". Inspite of this scribal's mistranslation, the inaccuracy does not alter the meaning of the verse.
---Eloy on 3/11/10


Lionel verse 1 says God created the earth (the planet)-not just water but soil/rock also.

Verse 2 shows what could be seen was water. Verse 9 reads "And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear..." The waters were gathered, dry ground, there all along, appeared.

Tohu/bohu are Hebrew.

The Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon (BDB) says 'Bohu' is used 3 times in the OT, with a different meaning each time. 1) Genesis 1:2: to describe 'the primaeval earth,' the earth in its created condition.

BDB define 'Tohu' as used in Genesis 1:2 as meaning 'formlessness of primaeval earth'- It carries no suggestion of something reduced to a condition of formlessness.
---Warwick on 3/11/10


Why all the discussion on when and how God made the earth. He cleared up the whole issue when He wrote with His own finger in stone:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is
---jerry6593 on 3/11/10


Warwick asks a good question: Why leave room for theories which are contradicted by God's word? I can think of two reasons, none of which are good, but some people may think about them (1) The person thinking it may not have realized that it is contradicted by God's word. There must have been things we thought when we were young Christians that now we realize that they are not Christian (2) even after we realize it is not Christian, if for a long time we have thought that way, we may unconsciously return to that way of thinking without realizing it
---peter3594 on 3/11/10


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Warwick:

You mention that the earth was created and then covered with water.
Would you direct me to the that scripture where you read that?
Read Isa.45:18.
You being a greek scolar check the words(tohu,bohu).
accept light.
---lionel on 3/10/10


I look at the words of Genesis as they describe actual conditions. It makes sense that in a pre-form Universe, only God would exist. In this place of no time, no space, no planets or stars, only God would be present. By His perceptions and His definitions, He created the natural physics that govern existence. What surrounded Him in that space of place would appear as a un-formed mass of what He had created by existing...particles of matter. The picture I see in the description of Genesis 1:2 is of a black space in which an ocean of dark particles slowly moves in the wake of God's Spiritual presence. I also perceive it as multilayered and deep, exhibiting the dimensions of height, width and depth.
---Elaine on 3/10/10


The Hebrew of the second half of Genesis 1:2:
"... veruach (and [the] spirit [of]) elohim (God)* merachefet (moved) al- (on/upon/above) pnei (face [of]) hammayim (the water)"

Words in [brackets] are implied by Hebrew grammar, but not actually written.
* ("[a] spirit [of] gods" is theoretically possible, but very unlikely)

The actual word "face" is used, however, this word is used in several idioms to express words that Hebrew lacks. For example, "al-pnei" ("on the face of" meaning "above/over"), "lefanei" ("to the face of" meaning "before" in space), and "lifnei" ("to the face of" meaning "before" in time).
---StrongAxe on 3/10/10


Some say it doesn't matter how or when or over what period God created. However if it doesn't matter why not accept what Scripture says. Search and you will see there are no long-ages, no evolution or room for any Gap Theories in God's word.

Why leave room for theories which are contradicted by God's word. What is the ulterior motive?
---Warwick on 3/10/10


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Lionel-Adam's age? What is your point?

The age of the earth cannot be proved by any scientific method. Therefore I trust God (who was there and cannot lie) got it right, telling us it is c6,000 yrs old.

If you follow Genesis Ch.1 as the chronology of creation,as it is, you will see that the earth was created, covered in water then God called the dry ground to appear.

Initially the earth was without shape and empty as it was not yet in its finished form. It was covered in water, with no land visible, obviously empty, as no life been created.

You say the original earth became formless and void but not one Bible writer even hinted at this!
---Warwick on 3/10/10


Lionel, as I, and others have pointed out many times the Hebrew word 'male' simply means 'fill' not 'refill.' This 'refill' misunderstanding comes from the fact that when the KJV was originally translated into English the Hebrew 'male' was correctly translated as 'replenish' which then meant fill, not refill. Over the intervening centuries 'replenish' has come to mean 'refill.' But this is not what the original Hebrew word means.

How many times do we have to go through this exercise? Do some research on the word meaning and you will see we are right.

God told Adam to be fruitful, and multiply and 'fill' the earth, not 'refill.'
---Warwick on 3/10/10


\\we know that god created the earth, the universe and all that is in it, and I would hope that is enough for us. let's not get into arguments about things we cannot be sure about\\

I agree with you, Peter.

As I've said elsewhere, whether creatures came into being instantaneously, or in an orderly process of development (which is what Genesis actually says), it's still God at work.
---Cluny on 3/10/10


michael:
Let me ftrst say that Iknow that you are knowledgable.
But think about this,if the earth is estimated millions of years old,and you can almost count backwards from where we are to Gen1:2.
From 2010 to Matt:1,about 2100years.
From Matt:1 to Gen:11 2000.
From Gen:11 to Gen:1verse alittle more than 2000.
If in Gen1:2there was a void and empty earth that would establish there was earth before Gen1:2
God create every thing,earth and heaven with every thing in them in the begining.
Try to understand what recreation means.
Check out hebrew word(tohu),(bohu).
Check Isa45:18,God didnot create earth void with out form.
---lionel on 3/10/10


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Another gap theory blog. Scolfield's bibles still around? Dispensationalist theology.
---mary on 3/10/10


The face of the water is actually the surface of the water where the Holy Spirit was hovering over. Water, land, air, hail snow, rain, sun and moon are all servants of God doing His will.

Water was the first creation to receive Holy Spirit that was why everything that God created on this earth has water. Without water, living or none living things cannot survive this earth.

God has promised not to use water to destroy the world, but to use it for salvation and healing of human beings.
---Esther on 3/10/10


"the face" is "the surface". lit.Hb: "The earth was unsightly and barren, and darkness over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water."
---Eloy on 3/10/10


lionel, let's work on wording if we may.
'replenish' KJV comes from Hebrew 'male''.
'male'' is translated 'fill' in 1:22 and also in NIV 1:28 which is the version you must have used for 1:2.
in 1:2 NIV the word 'now' or in KJV the word 'and' is added to the translation.
also creation wasn't proclaimed good until darkness and formless were addressed and very good until the end of the sixth day.
basically God created 1:1, how it looked 1:2, darkness addressed 3-5, formless addressed 6-10, void(empty) addressed 11-30,
proclaimed very good and finished after all was done 1:31, 2:1.
There in no 'became' or 'back' even hinted to in verse 1:2.
Question: What form does water have?
---MIchael on 3/10/10


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Andy, you said that the NIV says the Spirit of God was "hovering" over the waters". The NIV is not a good source to learn God's word from. It leaves out 17 whole verses found in the manuscripts from Antioch, Syria where the word Christians first showed up in Acts 11:26. A few of the verses left out are Mat 18:11, Acts 8:37 (salvation verses) and the greatest verse in the bible describing the Trinity, I John 5:7! The NIV divides I Jn 5:8 into two parts and calls one part verse 7! Among other things, it distorts the best verse in the bible for proving the Deity of Christ by removing the word "God" from I Tim 3:16. It also says that someone other than David killed Goliath in II Sam 22:19 which of course is an error!
---James on 3/10/10


Andy, God created these waters in the beginning also. They are said to be there when the earth was without form & void in Gen 1:2. The "face of the deep" is said to be frozen in Job 38:30-32 & it is connected with constellations. It is probably the sea of glass in Rev 4:6. In regards to your comment about the gap between Gen 1:1 & 1:2 being 2 mm big, in the Scofield reference bible it is 6 mm because there is a note between the two verses saying, "Earth made waste and empty by judgment!
---James on 3/10/10


in the beginning God created heaven and earth, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.NIV
does this mean there where hovercrafts?LOL
---Andy3996 on 3/10/10


"would God keep the air clean?"
---Steveng on 3/9/10

He does! This earth is under God's control - not Al Gore's or even the UN's. Extreme environmentalism is a God-less political movement which seeks to control mankind.
---jerry6593 on 3/10/10


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Cluny, it was in the beginning, not BEFORE the beginning that God created heaven and eart, so water cannot in this sense be pre-anything. this beginning was the beginning of the first day.

as whether there is a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, i believe so, it is about 2 mm big, and is found between the dot and the number two.
however that is more a printingproblem try to read a book when they have left the gaps from between the words.
---Andy3996 on 3/10/10


#1 Warwick:
First of all,how old would Adam be if alive today,would it be estimated(10000)guesting?
Some estiemate the earth at millions.
The bible states in the begining God created the heaven & earth.
Gen.1:2 now the earth was with form and void(empty).
How can there be an earth formless now in verse 2,if it had no yet been created in verse 1?
Remember that God in the begining created heaven & earth, very good.
Was it already formless & void,NO God created someththg out of nothing.
The heavens,earth & every thing in them was created good & became without form & void.
---lionel on 3/10/10


#2warwick:
In verse 2 God is not just begening to create,He did that in verse 1 IN THE BEGINING.
God is calling that which was created in the begining back into existance.
Take a look at something with me for a moment,what is meant by the word refill or replenish.If the answer is put back what was once there I agree.
God told bro Adam to be fruitfull & mutiply and replibnish the earth.What was Adam's fruit?
I said that to say that God created in the begining every thing VERY GOOD & it(H & E) BECAME WITH FORM VOID IN DARKNESS.Light was created along with all the host of heaven in the BEGINING.
---lionel on 3/10/10


Cluny: I would take it that the earth was created with water on the surface, and that is why God did not say 'let there be water' in a separate sentence. For lionel, I cannot say (or even guess) whether these is a time between Gen 1 and 2, or exactly how the timescale was arranged, but I do not think it is our job to work that out - we know that god created the earth, the universe and all that is in it, and I would hope that is enough for us. let's not get into arguments about things we cannot be sure about
---peter3594 on 3/10/10


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Lionel there is no Biblical evidence for, nor even a suggestion of a gap in Genesis 1:1.

God did create the earth formless and empty as the following chapters show-it was an ongoing event. It was formless because it was covered with water and it wasn't until verse 9 that God commanded the "dry ground appear."

It was empty because no life was yet created. That did not occur until the third day.
---Warwick on 3/9/10


Between Gen:1 & 2There is a great amount of time in between.
God did not create it(earth) with out form and viod(empty)in the begining.
The earth became that way.
If one could remember the Word states that every thing God created and mad was good.
what took place to caused it to become formless,thebible is silent about.
Maby some though about this from some of you,could shade some light for me.
thsnks
---lionel on 3/9/10


Are we to assume that water was pre-exsisting? The Bible suggests it.

There is no creative command to the effect "Let there be water" in Genesis 1.
---Cluny on 3/9/10


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