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1st Century Christian Traditions

How has the church moved away from the first century values and traditions? What has changed compared to today?

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Again MarkV highlights the anti-Christ nature of the trinity teaching when he says 'Jesus Christ the preincarnate' (3/25/10). 'God-incarnate' is not a Bible teaching.

However, the anti-Christ nature of the trinity and what MarkV promotes is this. Saying Jesus is 'God incarnate' nullifies the scriptures which state Jesus 'came in the flesh'.

John wrote, 'Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God... this is the antichrist's inspired expression...' 1 Jo.4:2,3.

MarkV does not confess Jesus as coming in the flesh, but as 'God incarnate'. This is anti-Christ, trinitarian propaganda.
---David8318 on 3/26/10


In response to MarkV, to say Christ is the creator, YHWH/Jehovah is a contradiction in terms and is pure trinitarian propaganda. How can the Creator be an 'anointed one'? Who anointed the Creator to become the 'Christ'? I do believe MarkV doesn't quite understand what 'Christ' means and reveals the anti-Christ nature of the trinity.

Neither is Christ 'Elohim' at Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus is prophetically called 'El Gib-bohr', meaning 'Mighty God', not 'El Shad-dai' meaning 'God Almighty', which is applied exclusively to YHWH/Jehovah God at Genesis 17:1.

The problem with MarkV is that he has been influenced by trinitarian, Neo-platonic philosophy and views the scriptures through the distortion of Hellenic, anti-Christ teachings.
---David8318 on 3/26/10


\\Yep you guessed it. THE SABBATH.
---francis on 3/26/10\\

francis, did you know that Orthodox, Conservative, and many Reform syangogues do not have services only on the Sabbath, but TWICE DAILY?

The Sabbath Commandment was not about worship, but rest from labor.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


Dear Lee I have Romans 14 and Martin Luther's Commentary on it. I also have other non SDA commentaries and I have read them and the passages in 10 different translations. Just because we disagree does not make those who disagree with you ignorant.

The church today is moving to a get rich with JESUS attitude which to me is more dangerous and detrimental to Christianity.

The Church is moving to abandon scripture as the foundation of Belief. Methodist, Episcopals, and others are adopting the ways of the world and disregarding scripture. These are important points yet each here seem to speak on the same ground over and over instead of facing these threats.
---Samuel on 3/26/10


When does the New Covenant end?

NEVER!

In heaven we will still be under the New Covenant. Actually most of the benefits of the New Covenant actually kicks in when we get to heaven, Eternal life, peace, etc
And guess what else in is this New covenant in heaven?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Yep you guessed it. THE SABBATH.
---francis on 3/26/10




Jerry //Good sense should tell you that if Jesus intended to change His own eternal Ten Commandment Law to honor Sunday instead of the Sabbath Day,

Good sense is something you are truly lack.

What you totally fail to understand is what constitutes a covenant. Your view is simply the New Covenant is simply a rehash of the Old while it is not. The words 'new' and 'renew' do not have the same meaning.

Yes we can all agree that Jesus did not change the Jewish Sabbath, He merely fulfilled it and His Spirit wrote that one need no longer observe it.

Ever read Romans 14? Probably not!!!!
---Lee1538 on 3/26/10


\\If that was true, then how did the name "sabbath" as the name of the seventh day of the week appear in over 100 languages?\\

It's called BORROWING.

Languages frequently borrow words from other languages. Didn't you know that?

However, the seven-day week (originally Babylonian) came into use through Christian influence. You'd be surprised, but not every culture has observed this.

Pagan Rome--with one of the oldest Jewish communities in the diaspora--didn't adopt a seven day week until the rise of Christianity.

Its usual division of time was the MONTH, with the Kalends, Nones, and Ides as the principal days. Market days were every EIGHTH day.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


Lee: "Good sense should tell us that if the Lord had desired us to observe the Jewish Sabbath, we would most certainly see it commanded in the New Testament but we do NOT."

That's not "good" sense - it is NONSENSE. Good sense should tell you that if Jesus intended to change His own eternal Ten Commandment Law to honor Sunday instead of the Sabbath Day, He would have given us a hint, at least. But alas ... nothing! The New Testament throughout confirms the validity of the Old Testament: "All scripture is inspired and is profitable." Jesus and the disciples quoted the OT, and He affirmed the Ten C by His own words and example.
---jerry6593 on 3/26/10


\\And yet most Christains at least as late as the 5th century, when the church as mostly Gentile, were still keeeping the Sabbath. In India they did so till the 1540's and in Ethiopia they kept the Sabbath as late as 1600. The Sabbath is for the those who believe in God, love Him and keep His commandments.\\

Just what do you mean by "keeping the Sabbath"?

The commandment, as originally given, was NOT about worship but abstaining from labor--an enforced rest that extended even to one's slaves and farm animals. (Read it for yourself in the Bible.)

But Jewish AND Gentile Christians would gather in the wee hours of the morning to celebrate the Eucharist on the next day.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


I recently took your "False Traditions" quiz, and I found a lot of things that were anti-Catholic, even unchristian.
There is an obvious bias toward Charismatic/Evangelical Christianity. Please do a little bit of study about Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism. Please read Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: A Concise Exposition, or Facing East by Frederica Matthews-Greene
Facing East will give you a look at the workings of an Orthodox Church,

For a look at what Roman Catholics believe, read Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church by Joseph Ratzinger

This will let you know what Roman Catholics really believe, and not the lies that you have been unwittingly taught.
---FatherBrendan on 3/26/10




David, #2: you would have to do a lot of dancing to remove the Lord from His own words in Zechariah 12:10. While the message is prophetic the Lord is certainly affirming the incarnation of deity for Jesus was the Lord Himself John 10:30. "I and My Father are one" The Lord speaking in Zech. 12:10 is One with Jesus Christ.
Matthew 10:40 clearly indentifies Jesus as the Father,
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." When someone receives Christ, he is receiving all three persons of the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your problem is your teachings from John 1:1 which declares the Jesus is "a God" and not "Almighty God"
---MarkV. on 3/25/10


David, I believe that before you can understand Scripture you need to get rid of the New Worlds Translation. Having it, will lead you wrong. You cannot escape the many times that Jesus Christ the preincarnate is mentioned in the Old Testament if the Spirit brings light. Jesus is mentioned also as the Angel of the Lord in many Old Testament passages. In Gen. 16:7-13, when the Angel of the Lord spoke to Hagar. In Gen. 22:15,18 He is mentioned in the account of the sacrifice of Isaac. In some instances the expression "Angel of God" is used as a synonym for Jehovah. In either case the deity of the Angel is confirmed by many passages. Jesus is also describe as the Creator. Even the Holy Spirit is mentioned as the Creator.
---MarkV. on 3/25/10


This and my previous post are directed to MarkV, not Michael.

Zechariah 12:10 is a prophetic reference to the Messiah. Jesus was pierced in the side, not Jehovah God. 'No man has seen God at any time'. Jo.1:18.

However, because Jesus was Jehovah's representative, piercing Jesus in the side was tantamount to piercing Jehovah.

Jesus said: 'He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.' (Matt. 10:40) He that attacks Jesus also attacks Jehovah.

Thus, non-believers of the Neo-platonic trinity do not have a problem when Jehovah prophetically wrote at Zech.12:10, 'They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced'.
---David8318 on 3/25/10


Michael, Jeremiah also described the capital city Jerusalem as 'Jehovah Is our Righteousness' at Jer.33:16. You must believe earthly Jerusalem is also Jehovah?

Jeremiah described both the coming Messiah and Jehovah's capital as 'Jehovah Is Our Righteousness' not because they were literally Jehovah God, but because both uphold Jehovah's 'Righteousness'. Jer.23:6, 33:16.

Jehozadak, whose name means 'Jehovah Declared Righteous' or 'Jehovah Is Righteous,' was not Jehovah himself.

The last King of Judah Zedekiah, whose name means 'The Righteousness of Jehovah' contrasts sharply with the Messiah's name meaning 'Jehovah Is Our Righteousness'. However, Jesus is not Jehovah God anymore than Zedekiah was.
---David8318 on 3/25/10


Ed = one can make Jesus his or her savior but when are you going to make Him lord as well?
---Lee1538 on 3/25/10


Lee1538 on 3/24/10

Poor soul when are you going to submit to the Lordship of Jesus, the Christ?

I have given my life to the Master, and his Holy Spirit guides me and we have a very close relationship. Don't be concerned with my Salavation, but be careful that you do not teach against the Holy Spirit for that will not be pardoned. I will be honest with you , you offer nothing to the salvation that I have already. I see quite clearly and way beyond the things that you say are the WORD. Remember Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that has ever came out of the mouth of YESHUA.
---Ed on 3/25/10


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Col 2:14-16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross, [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
1Cor 4:3-5a But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself, yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness,
---MIchael on 3/24/10


David #2: Not only does Scripture declare Christ is Jehovah but He is also Elohim of the Old Testament. In Isaiah 40:3, Christ is spoken of as both Jehovah and Elohim Luke 3:4. In Isaiah 9:6-7, Christ is called "the mighty God (Elohim)" It is apparent that Elohim in the Old Testament is God in the New Testament (Greek, theos). All passages in the New Testament refering to Christ by this title link Him with the Elohim of the Old Testament.
Not only is He Jehovah and Elohim, He is also Adonai. This common title given to God meaning "Lord" is often used of Deity as well as human masters. It is used in Psa. 110:1. Matt. 22:44, Mark 12:36, etc.
---MarkV. on 3/24/10


>-The scripture that convinces me the most that the Sabbath was given only to the Hebrew people is -

And yet most Christains at least as late as the 5th century, when the church as mostly Gentile, were still keeeping the Sabbath. In India they did so till the 1540's and in Ethiopia they kept the Sabbath as late as 1600. The Sabbath is for the those who believe in God, love Him and keep His commandments.
---djconklin on 3/24/10


>and obseved ONLY since the time of Moses.

If that was true, then how did the name "sabbath" as the name of the seventh day of the week appear in over 100 languages? Dr. William Mead Jones who found this says that this came from the time when the languages were created at the Tower of Babel--long before there ever was a Jew.

Question: what were Adam and Eve doing on the Sabbath? As God's children and having been made in His image wouldn't they be resting too? God certainly didn't need a Sabbath--so it must have been for man--we certainly do need a rest after working 6 days!
---djconklin on 3/24/10


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David, are you a Jehovah Witness? Just wanted to know because you refuse to believe that Christ is also Jehovah. The Jehovah Witnessess are wrong. Michael is correct. The Old Testament and the New Testament clearly, without a doubt prove that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. Zechariah 12:10, where Jehovah is speaking, the discription is to be applied clearly to Christ. "They shall look unto Me whom they have pierced"
Rev. 1:7 describes Christ in the same language. Again in Jeremiah 23:5-6, Christ is declared to be "Jehovah our righteousness" Similar comparisons are found in (Psa. 68:18, Ehp. 4:8-10, Psa. 102:12, 26-27, Hebrews 1:10-12. Christ is Jehovah of the temple (Mal. 3:1, Matt. 12:6, 21:12-13).
---MarkV. on 3/24/10


That really doesn't explain them both being the light that replaces the sun in the future, but I'll keep sending them and you keep trying to explain them according to your understanding.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
---MIchael on 3/24/10


Is Michael suggesting Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same because the Bible describes them both as 'light'?

This is false reasoning. The 'light' Jesus brought was knowledge of 'God's Kingdom'. That this 'light' is not indicative of oneness of personality can be seen by what Jesus instructed his followers to do with knowledge of the Kingdom when he said at Mt.5:14, 16 'Let your light shine... you are the light of the world'.

So are Jesus' followers also part of YHWH and Jesus because they are described as 'light'? No, this is absurd. Jehovah is the 'source of light' (Ps.36:9), Jesus brought that 'light to the world', and Christ's true followers 'let their light shine'.
---David8318 on 3/24/10


Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down, neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for YHWH shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Who shall be your light, YHWH or Jesus, the Lamb?
---MIchael on 3/24/10


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I doubt whether 'Cluny' has ever read the New World Translation. But as it doesn't suit his Neo-platonist, trinitarian views, I'm not surprised he speaks disparagingly of it.

I agree with Eloy that the KJV of 1611 is a good place to start. Start by looking at Psalms 83:18, and there you'll find God's name 'JEHOVAH' in big bold letters.

Removing God's name from their Bible's is an area where apostate Christendom has moved further away from the truth.

And yes, before it's raised, 'Jehovah' was not the exact way God's Hebrew name YHWH was pronounced. But it was certainly not 'LORD' or 'God' which most apostate trinitarians use to conceal Gods name.

Jesus said 'I have made your (God's) name manifest'. Jo.17:6.
---David8318 on 3/24/10


Mark_Eaton -The scripture that convinces me the most that the Sabbath was given only to the Hebrew people is -

De 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. THEREFORE the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

Good sense should tell us that if the Lord had desired us to observe the Jewish Sabbath, we would most certainly see it commanded in the New Testament but we do NOT. And the early church fathers - many of whom were followers of the Apostles themselves - would have taught it but they did NOT.
---Lee1538 on 3/24/10


Ed //You are very good at teaching the commandments of mammon.

You apparently have no idea as to what mammon even is. Have you ever used a dictionary?

Mammon is "wealth as evil influence: wealth and riches considered as an evil and corrupt influence"

Nowhere on this entire forum have I even mentioned anything regarding material riches.

While you tell others that it is a sin to not observe the Jewish Sabbath, you totally ignore the commandment that forbids slandering others.

Poor soul when are you going to submit to the Lordship of Jesus, the Christ?
---Lee1538 on 3/24/10


The apostate churches are found all across the world, and disobedience to Christ is not localized to any one specific region of the world.
---Eloy on 3/24/10


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Many today do not have respect for the Scriptures that the Apostles had. Paul taught all scripture is for the Church 1 Tim 3. Many today deny this as being true. Others are trying to change scripture to have evolution be true.

One of the big changes is people who teach you can live in any way you want and still go to heaven. This is particularly true in those churches which teach that GOD wants to make you rich. The Scriptures teaches we have reaponsiblity to all people to feed clothe, help the sick and those in prison. Not drive expensive cars and live in earthly mansions. Read Matthew 25
---Samuel on 3/24/10


Mark E: "It confirms (in my mind) that the Sabbath was given to the Jewish people alone."

The scriptures you cited seem to have left out the word "ALONE". Did you notice what God wrote with His own finger about when He created the Sabbath - before Israel existed?

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The Sabbath was established at creation for all mankind. Any other day is a man-made counterfeit.
---jerry6593 on 3/24/10


Lee,

You are very good at teaching the commandments of mammon. You have truly found your calling.

Did you forget Genesis 2:3 for there were no Jews then, or that Jesus said the FIRST COMMANDMENT: Love GOD who created Heaven and Earth with all your heart, mind, and Soul. This is the first Spiritual Commandment and the next 4 are based on it. If you love him you keep his commandments.
Remember you cannot love one Master and Serve the other.
Peace unto those who seek it.
---Ed on 3/24/10


Lee1538:

While reading Exodus the other day I happened upon this passage. It confirms (in my mind) that the Sabbath was given to the Jewish people alone.

Exod 31:13 "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths, for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you"

Exod 31:16 "So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant"
---Mark_Eaton on 3/23/10


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Jewish sabbath day?
The priests worked on the sabbath.
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
We have a new priesthood.
Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
We are the priests of the new covenant.
1Pet 2:9a But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law
1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless
---MIchael on 3/23/10


djconklin - Regarding Sozomen

This law, addressed to pagans who had always worked on Sunday, required the cessation of business on that day and so secured to Christians a better observance of Sunday than before.

The ecclesiastical historian, Sozomen, writing of Constantine, says: "He also enjoined the observance of the day termed the Lord's Day... He honored the Lord's Day because on it Christ rose from the dead." Ecc. Hist., page 22. It was, then, in behalf of Sunday as a Christian day, not as a pagan festival, that this law was made.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


djconklin - more on Sozemen

5th century. Passing back to about A.D. 450, we come to the history of the church written by Sozomen. In book 2, Chapter VIII, page 22, of Constantine, he says: "He honored the Lord's Day, because on it he arose from the dead." This shows what was meant by Lord's Day in those early times.

From Seventh-day Adventism RENOUNCED
by D. M. Canright

I rather doubt you can make the case that sabbath observance was the rule for the church. I do agree that there were pockets of Sabbath observers scattered around the empire.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


djconklin // There's no such thing as a Jewish Sabbath--there's only God's Sabbath ...

Yes one can find good reasons for observing the OT Sabbath particular if you are a convert from Judaism and wish to continue in that tradition.

However, the Holy Spirit who penned Scripture did not lie when He states in Romans 14:5-6 that one may esteem one day over others or none at all.

Unfortunately the Neo Judaizers insist that the Jerusalem council erred when it did not imposed the observance of Mosaic laws onto converts. And the OT Sabbath is but one of the Mosaic laws according to most Biblical dictionaries.

Acts 15:24b You must be circumcised and keep the law-to whom we gave no such commandment...
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


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djconklin - //but they were keeping the Sabbath as distinct from Sunday. Check out the Ecclesiastical Histories of Sozomen and Socrates.(both born Palestine)

Yes, I have checked those sources and find that while some sects around the world continued to observe the old Jewish Sabbath and even kept many of the old Mosaic laws, their was a minority view even considered heretical.

I see no support for sabbath keeping in any of the early church fathers - Barnabas 120 A.D., Justin Martyr 140 AD. Ignatius 110AD, the Didache (80AD), Tertullian, etc..

And on the basis of Scripture as well as church history, we can only conclude the OT sabbath is not binding on Christians.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


frances - //The issues in 1 john has to do with teaching men not to keep the commandments of God.

?????????????????

//1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

And what are the commandments that John speaks of? There are 2 according to 1 John 3:22-14. One to believe in the name of His son Jesus Christ and the other, to love one another. (Romans 13:10 says that is the fulfillment of the law)

Now francis keep honking the OT sabbath that is not even commanded in the NT because there is no light in him and he has yet to come into the knowledge of the Truth.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


Is the Sabbath Jewish? One can only say YES since such was given ONLY to the Jewish people, and obseved ONLY since the time of Moses.

Furthermore the Jerusalem council Acts 15 was convened to determine if Gentile believers has to observe Jewish law and it was determined that they need not do so.

(15:24) NRSV "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised AND keep the law" -to whom we gave no such commandment-

Unless the Judaizers cannot give any specific scripture that states Christian need keep the olde Jewish Sabbath, they should simply shutup.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


>Yes, the Christians Sabbath - the Lord's day, Sunday -not the old Jewish Sabbath.

1) Sorry to disappoint you, but they were keeping the Sabbath as distinct from Sunday. Check out the Ecclesiastical Histories of Sozomen and Socrates. You've been told, and shown, this before.

2) There's no such thing as a Jewish Sabbath--there's only God's Sabbath which He made at Creation vs. evolving over time.
---djconklin on 3/23/10


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\\We are living in the apostate era. And there are few churches which are following Christ today.
---Eloy on 3/23/10\\

And all of them are Eastern, or originated there.

The WEST is what's apostate.
---Cluny on 3/23/10


We are living in the apostate era. And there are few churches which are following Christ today.
---Eloy on 3/23/10


Yes, the Christians Sabbath - the Lord's day, Sunday -not the old Jewish Sabbath.
Lee1538

There is no biblical evidence on the first day of the week being anything but another day. Nor is the Seventh day Sabbath called Jewish any place in the bible. Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Look up the word Man in Strongs it refers to all man. No one in the New Testamnet calls it the Jewish sabbath.

True the Eastern Orthodox did spread Christianity at first better then the RCC at least until the Great Schism.
---Samuel on 3/23/10


djconklin -//They did on being saved by faith and not by works, keeping the Sabbath and baptism by immersion.

Yes, the Christians Sabbath - the Lord's day, Sunday -not the old Jewish Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


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"... most in the church were illiterate and had to depend more on ritual and tradition in its services" (Lee)

I will say they had to depend on the Apostolic Traditions passed along by the Holy Apostles, and preserved by "those faithful men" (there Successors in the Bishopic/Presbyter Church offices) (2 Tim 2:2)

"But what type of church was more effective in winning others to Christ?"

Well...the Eastern Orthodox Church has been quite effective in winning others to Christ for the past 2,000 years and will continue to do so. My parish has grew in the past months. Many are desiring to live for Christ and the Apostolic Faith. Glory to God!!!! Amen! Amen! Amen!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/22/10


>As far as the church moving away from 1st century values, I will say that the ones of Apostolic origin have not.

They did on being saved by faith and not by works, keeping the Sabbath and baptism by immersion.
---djconklin on 3/22/10


Fr. Brendan//As far as the church moving away from 1st century values, I will say the ones of Apostolic origin have not.

That is probably somewhat true as most in the church were illiterate and had to depend more on ritual and tradition in its services. Church structure certainly had to be less democratic than what we have today at least as for church hierarchy.

The church and the world today is a much different world. We have moved a long ways from the days when they plowed with oxen and believed lightning & thunder was an expression of Gods wrath.

But what type of church was more effective in winning others to Christ?
---Lee1538 on 3/22/10


\\Cluny, you speak falsehood because there is no light in you. But when you get saved, then you will no longer be able to blaspheme but instead will you then be able to speak truth.
---Eloy on 3/20/10//

Eloy, I do wish you would stop the ad hominem attacks. For instance, I know Cluny personally, and he is without a doubt one of the holiest men I know. He has even done a great deal for me, personally, in my walk with Christ

As far as the church moving away from 1st century values, I will say that the ones of Apostolic origin have not.
---FatherBrendan on 3/22/10


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eloy

Yes, many repent daily here, including Cluny. I understand that anyone who do not bow to you and believe everything you say are not "saved". You love when man praise and agree with you. You have a high ego, much like the Pharisees in Christ' time.

What you need to do Eloy is pray and repent of your sins of pride and self-righteousness, instead of telling everyone else who disagree with you that they need to repent and get saved.

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased, and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." Proverbs 29:23.

You exalt yourself too much Eloy. May God grant you the spirit of humility. I will pray for you, poor child.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/22/10


Eloy, are you the burning bush? or the Angel of the Lord? The way you speak to everyone you sound like the Lord. Did the Lord make you a little lord? "a god" as the New World translation has it in John 1:1?
---Bobby-1 on 3/22/10


\\Cluny, my pleasure: Repent, and get saved.
---Eloy on 3/22/10\\

I repent daily.

Someone here has rightly pointed out that deciding who is saved and who is not is merely playing the devil's game.

Eloy, quit trying to claim the moral high ground. It's not working.
---Cluny on 3/22/10


Cluny, my pleasure: Repent, and get saved.
---Eloy on 3/22/10


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Bobby1, They that are born-again will know who I am. I speak God's words, which are sharper than any two-edged sword, and therefore may sound terrible to blasphemer. Every Spirit-filled Christian knows who is saved and who is not saved, just as the body is aware of each member of its own body. Yes, I have discernment: "Do people gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forward good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forward bad fruit. A good tree cannot bring forward bad fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forward good fruit. Every tree that brings not forward good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you all will know them."
---Eloy on 3/22/10


\\Cluny, you speak falsehood because there is no light in you. But when you get saved, then you will no longer be able to blaspheme but instead will you then be able to speak truth.
---Eloy on 3/20/10\\

If you think I'm not saved, that means I'm in pretty good spiritual shape, Eloy.

Keep on blessing me. You just increase my heavenly treasure.
---Cluny on 3/21/10


Eloy, a few questions I have for you, are you born again of the spirit? my thoughts after hearing you, you lay down such terrible comments to others. Are you for real? Is there really a person who knows who is save and who is not? Is that person you? Do you have that power?
---Bobby-1 on 3/20/10


Cluny, you speak falsehood because there is no light in you. But when you get saved, then you will no longer be able to blaspheme but instead will you then be able to speak truth.
---Eloy on 3/20/10


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Eloy, clearly you are not aware of the issues in translating the Bible or other ancient texts.

You give yourself airs and want credit for great spiritual gifts, but you clearly know not whereof you speak.
---Cluny on 3/19/10


Cluny, you can do a side-by-side comparative research online. I would use the 1611 KJV, which has minimal transcription errors, and select this as the first text, and then select an English version published after 1611 as your 2nd text to display a Nerw Testament chapter and verses side-by-side, and not long after comparing the two version, you will notice the horror of how man has corrupted God's Holy Word and then published it falsely claiming that it is God's Word when in truth it is not, but instead it was God's
Spirited word which they changed into man's uninspired word.
---Eloy on 3/19/10


\\It is doubtful that the first century really had any real defined traditions as they often reflected the culture in which they existed.\\

If you mean the first century church had no traditions, this is not true at all.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

What made first century Christians unpopular is that they did NOT follow the traditions of the surrounding culture.
---Cluny on 3/19/10


It is doubtful that the first century really had any real defined traditions as they often reflected the culture in which they existed.

As to values, there existed a common morality among all peoples.

Eamon Duffy, Roman Catholic church history, states that many of the churches in Italy simply grew out of the existing Jewish synagogues and thus reflected values inherited from Judaism.

However, friction among Jews & converts caused Jews to be expelled from Rome by Claudius Acts 18:2
---Lee1538 on 3/18/10


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I don't know what Eloy is talking about unholy Bibles. None on the market are the original writings of Scripture. Everyone has been revised in some form are another. Sometimes to help the reader. Only the original are holy and Truth. Some are close but not original. Some are closer then others. Some are better to use and give a clear picture compared to the King James. Interpetation of words on commentaries will vary alot.
The only one I would say has been changed a whole lot is the New World Translation. Due to the fact that the Witnessess have another Jesus then we do. The Book of Mormon is not a Bible.
---MarkV. on 3/18/10


When we talk about 'first century values and traditions', are we only talking about what is written in the new testament books, or can we take other (non-canonical) writings as evidence?).
---peter3594 on 3/18/10


\\Many translations substitute the Spirited words from God, for uninspired words of unregenrate man, and thereby they dilute the power of God in the Holy Scripture. \\

Be specific, Eloy.

Which ones?

With the exception of the New World Mistranslation by Jehovah's False Witnesses, they all say the same thing.
---Cluny on 3/18/10


Cluny, Since the Dervil failed to obliterate and destroy all ther Holy Bibles from the peoipple, he accomplished to foil another way, through deception, for he marketed a whole slue of Unholy imitations, under the guise of being Holy Writ. Many translations substitute the Spirited words from God, for uninspired words of unregenrate man, and thereby they dilute the power of God in the Holy Scripture. The word "Holy" is a misnomer for many versions, because their words are not God's Word, and though they be scholarly rich, yet have they no Holy Spirit and have no Dunamis. Some translations omit the miracles and signs done by the Spirit, some remove the Heavenly Trinity, and some denigrate the full deity of Christ.
---Eloy on 3/18/10


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If anyone reads the history of the church they will find most of what was taught then, was coming from the traditions of the denominational church. Not the traditions of, Christ, the prophets, or the apostles. The church in Pergamos, which means "a mixed marriage" and "relevation" begin with the conversion of Constantine 313 A.D. who declared Christianity once condemned as heresy against the state religion. By his favor, persecution ceased and the clergy exalted by the Alliance with the world, where, the letter declared, Satan's seat (throne) is. The Pope and Rome. We know what happened in the dark ages the church at Sardis meaning ("Escaping ones" a discription of the Great Reformation.
---MarkV. on 3/18/10


\\clean of unholy bibles,\\

What do you mean by "unholy bibles," Eloy?
---Cluny on 3/17/10


Donna, yes times have changed. When people try to run "the house of prayer" like a worldly business, then that is what they get, a worldly business. But know that not all churches have turned apostate, there are still a few that are faithful to Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, but indeed these are very very few. It takes each indivdual lover of Christ to be responsible enough to take action to help keep our Lord's House clean: clean of unholy bibles, clean of false doctrines, clean of women and unethical persons in the pulpit, clean of charging money and cursed tithes for Love's service, clean of worldliness and quenchings of the Holy Spirit.
---Eloy on 3/17/10


\\I'm not going to assume that *any* publicly known and historically reported church *ever* was God's one and *obedient* church.\\

I will assume that.

Don't you believe that YOUR church is "God's one and 'obedient' church"?

If you don't, why do you bother going there?

According to Jesus's own promise, it has to be out there somewhere.
---Cluny on 3/16/10


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I'm not going to assume that *any* publicly known and historically reported church *ever* was God's one and *obedient* church. I understand that as soon as the disciples got started, after Jesus, already there were fake people getting started, also. For example, as soon as Mary the mother of Jesus died, Christians might have hidden her body so cultic people would not try to use her body for relics, and so began cultic people's supposing that she had ascended, since they couldn't find her body. And ones of cultic groups could suppress news about the real church, in historical records. But ones use the Bible, to get credibility, coming nowhere close to saying all the Bible gives, but just a few doctrinal handouts.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/16/10


What has changed? ALOT.

What happened to the way they gathered in the book of Acts, "From House to House, Breaking Bread with one another, selling all they had and giving to the poor so that there was no one in need or want."

I'm not sure if God ever intended us to have building fund drives and buy a building. Two churches I used to go to (and left) bought buildings and both churches are closing. Where is the fire of God in people's hearts? Where are those that continue to seek Him ALL the time?
---Donna on 3/16/10


One of the main things that the church has done, is replace the Holy Bible with unholy bibles, and they have accepted falsehood in the place of sound doctrine. Most churches today are synagogues of satan who fleece the sheep for gain, rather than the house of Christ who feeds the sheep wihtout charge.
---Eloy on 3/16/10


The two are not quite the same... The 'traditions' have chenged in dofferent churches in different ways - the comment about the Eastern churches is true for some things, but the liturgy, though it remains probably similar, has (from my experience in Greece) perhaps taken 'a life of its own', which may not be a very good thing. some or the 'values' remain, while others have become different (not changed, but as the needs have chenged, so have the vlaues that are valued).
---peter3594 on 3/16/10


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actually nothing has changed,people still sin,maybe easier and faster,and more often.the truth hasn,t changed,never will,technology changes,but only God can change people.you are either dead in sin,or alive in christ.
---tom2 on 3/16/10


As Cluny pointed out, it depends what "church" you are talking about and what you mean by "church".

The Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and other Eastern Churches still keep them.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/15/10


Depends on what you mean by "church."

The Orthodox Church and the other churches of the East still keep them.

Western Christianity is another issue, of course.
---Cluny on 3/15/10


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