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Religions For Self Righteous

Do you agree or disagree with this statement. "All religion contains methods, rituals and practices for man to become righteous enough to ascend or evolve to God. All religion thus believes in the need for one to become self righteous."

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 ---mima on 3/16/10
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No Simon, they haven't.

John -
I'm glad you're happy with your beliefs and that your faith is strong.

I am happy with mine, I enjoy the simplicity of what I believe to be the Plan of Salvation. My faith is strong and by the way, my church teaches about the Resurrected Christ - the risen Lord.

You have a right to believe and worship whatever way you see fit, as do I. In all honesty - nothing I say would satisfy you. My only issue with you is your claim to know what I believe - you don't.
---HappyLDS on 3/29/10


we believe in continuing revelation. You could say that we believe as Isaiah taught, that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught line upon line, precept on precept. Our 9th Article of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." HappyLDS

Do you believe that GOD reveal contridictory statments of Belief? Or does all that GOD reveal have to match? I have no problem with continuing revelations. But they all must agree with the Bible for by the Bible must all truth be judged. Line upon line in agreement or it is false.
---Samuel on 3/29/10


Forever-Only ONE GOD.
Warns of ha-satan tactic-
Gen1:5-24
...For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,then your eyes shall be opened,and ye shall be as gods,knowing good and evil

Is 44:6Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel,and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts,I am the FIRST AND THE LAST,BESIDE ME NO GOD.God spoke out the End from the Beginning.
The Word-In Flesh-Foretold us all.
Mk13:22
For False Christs and false prophets shall rise,and shall shew signs and wonders,to seduce, if possible,even the elect.
But take heed:BEHOLD, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS.
Is 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginnng,and from ancient times that are not done,saying,My counsel shall stand and I will do all My pleasure
---char on 3/29/10


No, I do not agree. We can do nothing without God. Jesus hated self-righteousness and condemned it. There is nothing good that dwells in our flesh and there is no way to change the matter outside of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Following the Holy Spirit is not self-righteousness. Love is not self-righteous or self-seeking. I will not speak for other religions.
---jody on 3/29/10


HappyLDS: It is impossible for Lord Jesus and the lord whom you serve to be brothers. You use technical blurb (a place where Satan always pulls up a chair) to persuade some to the contrary, but the bible is quite clear: Lucifer was the first created being - a seraph (Isaiah 14:12 N.B. not a son of God) - whereas Jesus was born the Son of God and is human [Hebrews 1:6]. If they were brothers it would presuppose that either Jesus could fall from grace too or, conversely, Satan's depicted aberration in Rev 13 could be another lamb. If Satan wasn't going to worship Jesus [Heb 1:6b] then he certainly wasn't going to minister to us [Heb 1:14] - yet the Servant King gave His life for us. They cannot be brothers, One is divine.
---John_II on 3/29/10




HappyLDS, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't your prophets predicted dates for the end of the world on more than one occasion?
---simon7348 on 3/29/10


HappyLDS: Prophets prepare the way, now we have the Way! You say we need prophets yet God has said, "Listen to Him"! You may use Eph 4:{11-12}, but haven't you claimed to know Jesus (to the point of sarcasm) {13}, and so no longer a child in need of milk {14}? So shouldn't you be spreading the Gospel instead of leading people to prophets? Are we obeying the decalogue [2 Kings 17:13]? So let the people understand the times we're in [Jeremiah 23:15]. Therefore you deny Heb 1:1:2 and insult His grace by seeking signs (though you yourself actually don't)? What the world needs is Christ! But it's true that you do not know Him, all false churches deny the risen Lord. The only prophets we see these millennia are full of Wormwood.
---John_II on 3/29/10


"Your sarcasm, recrimination, pre-emption, duplicity, collusion, refuge in legalism, and the slinking in with other denominations betray your pious talk for deliverance. Your posts are teeming with self-righteousness and are the hallmarks/ results of false teaching."
---John_II on 3/27/10

If this is directed at me, I certainly apologize. I answered a blog question and subsequently the questions that followed. If I offended you or anyone else, it was certainly not my intent. That being said, I do not believe for a second that what I've been taught is false and will not retract my testimony of it's truthfulness.
---HappyLDS on 3/28/10


Simon - you know that we believe in continuing revelation. You could say that we believe as Isaiah taught, that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught line upon line, precept on precept. Our 9th Article of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." That pretty much sums it up.

Baptism for the Dead - we don't determine who gets "saved". We are baptized on behalf of those who are being taught in the spirit world - they will choose to accept or reject it. I believe that God will be certain that all of His children have such opportunity.
---HappyLDS on 3/28/10


Eloy:

The English words 'Religion' and 'Devotion' were not in the original Greek, as English didn't exist until hundreds of years after the Bible was written.

The King James translators said 'Religion'. You may feel your translation is better, but this could be because you have a different opinion of what the word 'Religion' means than they (or that everyone else) did. This does not mean your interpretation is more correct.

Now note that this is NOT a matter of interpretation of scripture - this is a matter of interpretation of the DICTIONARY. Language is a matter of consensus (i.e. words mean what a majority of speakers of a language agree that they mean) - not a matter of immutable divine revelation from on high.
---StrongAxe on 3/28/10




Larry - as you are aware there is no biblical support for anything regarding Jackson County...at least none I'm aware of. The only such support would be found in Amos 3:7, that God will reveal His secrets through Prophets. Apparently the idea of living prophets is offensive to some. I believe that we are very much in need of prophets today and that God loves us as much as He loved those in ancient times and continues to guide us. I'm certain that Moses, Noah, Job and all the ancient prophets had cynics as well. I think it's easier to believe in dead prophets rather than those who live among us.
---HappyLDS on 3/28/10


cont'
Jesus:Jehovah is Salvation
Yasha-to save,be saved
Yehovah-"the existing One"

Only Gods Word can save us.
---char on 3/28/10


Jesus(Yahusha])-Was-Is and Forvever will be the Word of God:Word that became Flesh.
To believe in Jesus-is to believe in the Word of God and no other-word.
Confessing Jesus-is confessing the Word of God and no other-word
Knowing Jesus died for Our sins is understanding He was the actual Words that were prophecied-in flesh-completing the promised Words spoken.If you believe in The Word of God-It will be-That Word That changes you-not of yourself or any other-word.The Holy Spirit-In you-confirms Gods Words confessed and then-performs them Through you.This Work is What is judged and any sin-not confessed for forgiveness.
When Knowing The Word of God-you recognize any other word as anti-
---char on 3/27/10


HappyLDS

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (New King James Version)
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

This to me makes us all brothers with the same Father. Religion is basically a Word, And Worldly way, to deceive those who seek the Kingdom of Heaven.
Peace To All
---Ed on 3/27/10


HappyLDS, firstly, I think "All scripture" is referring to a single work, that is the Bible, not "All the scriptures" which could be argued is multiple. Where do the following come from in the Bible?
"doctrine of exaltation which includes the ability of humans to become gods and goddesses in the afterlife"
"marital bonds in the afterlife"
And whilst I can see that baptism of the dead has been taken from 1 Cor 15:29 (debate as to the meaning) the practice carried out suggests that we[not God] are making selections as to who can be saved when that is God's choice alone. There are more but this would require further discussion.
---simon7348 on 3/27/10


Happy(and saved, right?)LDS: Apparently a winning formula: a prophet reveals more God to an elder who then gets confirmation off the Spirit, and lo, two witnesses and the Lord walking together in agreement. (Test the spirits yourselves, people! It's the conniving and the self-righteous who seek out prophets these days, the former to make Mammon and the latter to live how they want to live - endorsed by a sign, seek the Lord, we have already been given everything in Christ Jesus). Your sarcasm, recrimination, pre-emption, duplicity, collusion, refuge in legalism, and the slinking in with other denominations betray your pious talk for deliverance. Your posts are teeming with self-righteousness and are the hallmarks/ results of false teaching.
---John_II on 3/27/10


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Thanks for the advice StrongAxe - now I'll just have to figure out what words I used that were flags! Again, thanks!
---HappyLDS on 3/27/10


Happy LDS - "We believe Brigham Young was a prophet of God."
I could believe the same of Walt Disney, does that make it so?

For the third time...answer the Jackson County Missouri prophecy as the New Jeruselem and support it biblically ....please.
---larry on 3/27/10


HappyLDS:

I have sometimes found a post mysteriously disappear repeatedly, but appear when I changed some words. There may be some specific words that automatically flag a post as unacceptable. Also, some other things (like including web URLs) may also automatically get a post rejected before any moderator even sees it.
---StrongAxe on 3/27/10


Simon -

I have tried three times to respond to your statement regarding the Journal of Discourses. Three times my post has been mysteriously lost while what I post before and afterwards makes the cut. I don't know why this occurs, I suppose the moderator doesn't like my answer. In short, we do not believe that - we believe in the virgin birth.
---HappyLDS on 3/26/10


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cont. for Simon

We understand that we have been saved from the bonds of death by the sacrifice Jesus made for us. (I Cor 15:21,22) This is a free gift we've been given and ALL (good and evil) will be resurrected. As for our place in eternity, we will be judged according to our works (Rev 20:12,13). We believe that a part of "works" is repentance. We know that Jesus suffered for our sins and we know that we have been given commandments to keep. We know that when we sin, we can be forgiven through repentance because Jesus Christ died for our sins. We do not believe that a "confession" of Christ will justify ignoring the commandments...we believe we must act on our faith just as James tells us (James 2:26)
---HappyLDS on 3/26/10


Hi Samuel - Yes, we believe that God continues to communicate through prophets today. Yes, we listen to what they say and then ask in prayer to know for ourselves if what they say is true. You are also correct that we believe that the Bible has been translated and interpretted so many times that sometimes the truth is not clear. I think that's pretty evident by the amount of different doctrines out there. I also don't believe that the Bible contradicts anything we're taught. As you are aware, we believe the KJV to be the most correct translation. When I read it, I see no contradictions.
I believe that Jesus Testament created all we have been taught in Genesis, I incorrectly assumed all would understand that. I stand corrected.
---HappyLDS on 3/26/10


Yes Happylds you rely on the Bible and the words of the prophet of the LDS church not just the first Joseph Smith but every prophet since then. Such as Brigham Young and the latter Joseph Smith who spoke of how we must make ourselves good so god can save us.

This is very much like the RCC who rely on tradition and Scripture. Both of you end up putting your books or tradition above scripture. So that when the bible contidicts your church teachings you say it is not interpreteated correctly and use your leaders as the final source of truth.

You stated JESUS created the earth. But the Bible says JESUS created everything which is true?
---Samuel on 3/26/10


Apparently my first post to Simon didn't make it - I'll give it a little more time before I try again.

Larry,
You must believe the prophets in the Old and New Testaments were self righteous as well. We believe that Brigham Young was a prophet of God. That being said, he was also a man - capable of speaking his mind. Partial quotes taken out of context aren't what I would consider fair but if you feel justified, believe as you will. I think I described our common ground with Evangelicals honestly - if they choose to hold fast to the thought that Mormons believe in "another Jesus" - that is their right and their issue.
---HappyLDS on 3/25/10


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continued for Simon:

Obviously we rely on the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon and others. We believe that all of these contain the word of God. The scripture you cite uses the words "ALL scripture" (KJV)-it doesn't appear to stop with the Bible. God has always been our God. We believe that we are His children and obviously that means He existed before us. He is our Father, our God - no one else before or after Him.

I hope that answers your confusion regarding our beliefs. Now for the question about the brotherhood of Jesus and Satan...continued
---HappyLDS on 3/25/10


Thank you Simon.

Happy LDS,
the self-righteous belief claiming the New Jerusalem "shall arise in the tops of the mountains and in the land of Missouri." And prior to this event, "[t]he western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that as President [Brigham] Young tells us, 'when we return to that place there will not be as much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.'"
is pathetic and indefensible.


The aforementioned is a lie from the "father of lies" and therefore not of Jesus. You worship a Jesus created by the LDS and have no common ground in biblical truth with evangelical Christians.
---larry on 3/25/10


Technically, we don't believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers...we believe that Jesus and Lucifer were once brothers. Lucifer was once in Heaven and became Satan when he was cast out. We believe that all of us existed as spirit sons and daughters of God - this includes Jesus and Lucifer, in that sense yes, Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Does this in anyway diminish Jesus Christ as our Savior or make Satan anything more than the father of lies? No it doesn't. The question is simply meant to freak people out. I would assume that as Christians you believe we are all human offspring of Adam and Eve - that would make each us a relative of some vile and evil people throughout history. Does that mean that we are also vile and evil?
---HappyLDS on 3/25/10


As a matter of fact, we believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the New Testament. We believe that he created the heavens and earth under direction of God the Father. We do not believe that the two are the same, we do not share the Trinitarian viewpoint.

I love the church of which I am a member. I believe that it's doctrines are the doctrines of Jesus Christ, it is his church. It makes complete sense. I love that bashing the beliefs of others is not something we do - there is no need.
---HappyLDS on 3/25/10


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Happy....Hope your doing well. You said:
Just to clarify - Mormons believe in the Jesus who is the Son of God, the Jesus who healed the sick, raised the dead, preached the Sermon on the Mount, suffered and died for our sins...the same Jesus that was resurrected so that we can all be resurrected. You can read of him in the New Testament.
Happy, you are misleading people. You do not believe Jesus is God. You do not believe HE has always existed. You believe that He is created and His brother is satan.
---JIM on 3/25/10


Howdy Happpy LDS

First we should never attack another person. I can disagree with what they teach. But I must check what they teach from their sources not from just those opposed to them.

All relgious can lead some people to believe they are self righteous. Pharisees who look at their works and activities can exist in any church or denomination.

True is we have no righeouness. True righteouness is based on JESUS haveing lived a perfect life and dying for our sins. Since we are all sinners. Romans 3
---Samuel on 3/25/10


Bearing false witness is violating a commandment yet so many choose to make false claims about beliefs of others.Larry -
Just to clarify - Mormons believe in the Jesus who is the Son of God, the Jesus who... You can read of him in the New Testament.
---HappyLDS on 3/24/10


The problem is that you don't rely on the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), or believe in the virgin birth (Journal of discourses vol.8, or the free gift of salvation (Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works (Eph. 2:8, Rom. 4:5, Gal. 2:21)).God has always been God (Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 57:15). God has always been God (Psalm 90:2, Isaiah 57:15)...
---simon7348 on 3/25/10


Mima, you are a good man and I respect you very much, and sometimes disagree with some of what you say. I do that with everyone Mima. But your show of hatred for those others who do not believe as you, (RCC), is not becomming of a brother who talks alot of his witnessing to hundreds. Attack the doctrines with the Truth if you don't believe in them (doctrines) but not the people. Let those others who like to do that do that. Don't side with anyone who is attacking another person for what they believe. You don't like someone attacking you or what you believe.
---MarkV. on 3/25/10


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---kathr4453 on 3/25/10, your questions to
--Ignatius leave the poor man very little room to maneuver. While all your statements are true they are very condemning to--Ignatius. He is aware of this and therefore I ask you to not beat a dead horse.
---mima on 3/25/10


--Ignatius, Let me ask you, do you believe in and practice the 7 sacraments as does the RCC?

Do you not also have confession you present to your priests and they have the power to forgive sin...as you do have those calling themselves FATHER?

Do you not also claim your church was founded on the Apostle Bartholomew just as Rome has it claim to fame in Peter?

Do you not also practice many of the TRADITIONS of the RCC.

In spite of all you say about GRACE etc, the above list would say you have a different definition of GRACE than is taught in scripture.

THIS is what I'm addressing.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


Mima, it was a trick question. You wanted to see how you would place certain people with their response. If you had been up front and said, I got the artical from the internet and they figure this by this statement, and you were asking how everyone thought of the statement it would not be a trick question. Even now you don't say who' quote or why it was stated. What kind of denomination the person comes from or any information. Of course I could do a word search, but it should not be necessary for anyone to do that, when you could have given it all along.
---MarkV. on 3/25/10


There are many self righteous "Christians" here...is this a result of religion? I don't think so - I tend to think the self righteous have no real faith. Why must they challenge the faith of others if they are comfortable in their own? As one of those "crazy" Mormons, I'm pretty used to the attacks, as are the Jehovahs Witnesses and others. When I took the time to talk to a JW I learned that they aren't the crazy cult I had always believed. Everyone has elements of truth in their religion and if that religion helps them to be good people, if they believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him the way they see fit, why attack?
continued
---HappyLDS on 3/24/10


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Bearing false witness is violating a commandment yet so many choose to make false claims about beliefs of others. I wonder if perhaps it's Satan's way of dividing and conquering. Christians should unify because we are certainly going to need each other in the future. Arguments are futile and attacking to faith of another certainly won't bring that person to your "side." Contention isn't spiritual.
Larry -
Just to clarify - Mormons believe in the Jesus who is the Son of God, the Jesus who healed the sick, raised the dead, preached the Sermon on the Mount, suffered and died for our sins...the same Jesus that was resurrected so that we can all be resurrected. You can read of him in the New Testament.
---HappyLDS on 3/24/10


Strtongax, The english word "religion" is not in the original Scriptures. The Greek word is "qrhskeia", meaning "devotion", not religion. And this comes from the Greek "qrhskos", meaning "devout", which both are found in James 1:26.
lit.Gk: "If anyone tells to be devout among you, not bridling the tongue of him, but deceiving his own heart, this one's devotion rather vain. Pure devotion and undefiled in the sight of God, even to the Father, stands this: to visit orphans and widows in the affliction of them, to keep one's self unspotted from the world." James 1:26,27.
---Eloy on 3/25/10


Kathr seems to love passing false witness against other Christians. She apparently can not grasp the difference between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, nor the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and the Armenian Apostolic Church. She has tons of conspiracy theories against the RCC that I at times have sat back in my chair and can't stop laughing. She has slandered the Eastern Orthodox Church in other blogs, claiming we believe things that we do not. But if she does the same with the RCC, how can you be surprise if she bash other Christians?

Why will one believe what Kathr, a non-Orthodox, say concerning us? She have posted half-truths here about us.

But such is the case of those whose soul is not pure.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


A visit to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese Church, and the Orthodox Church of America websites will alone silence Kathr lies.

"Divine Grace is the good will of God that is made manifest and given to man. Gift, Love, Assistance--all of these are offered freely to man, without his deserving them. How can man be worthy of God's grace, since he disobeyed God, and left Him and departed from Him? He is not worthy of it. Divine Grace is so necessary to him, but he cannot ask for it. He cannot demand it as though it were his wages. He needs Grace in order to be redeemed, and it is given to him richly and as a gift" (Orthodox Catechism: Basic Teachings of the Orthodox Church, found online).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


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Mima, Kathr....I think you would have to add Jehovah's Witness/Watchtower to the list.
Its actually a cult but very much works based vs. faith based.

The answer to the question is probably yes concerning the life of the religious (methods, rituals and works to obtain self-righteous) and a definite NO concerning the life of the faithful.
You can be very religious and without faith.
---larry on 3/24/10


"....God's grace is something you must earn....." (Kathr)

Which is a big fat lie, and you know it. Orthodoxy do not teach we earn "God's Grace" through the Sacraments or during works. Such topics are fully explain in one of the articles at the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America dealing with Orthodox Spirituality.

Wherever Kathr got her information, I rest assure you that she didn't get it from a Canonical Orthodox website. Father Stephen in a online article entitled "The Orthodox Church and Personal Salvation" disprove Kathr remarks.

Don't know why Kathr wish to pass false witness against us. Such NASTY behavior is not play by some here.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


Eastern Orthodox like the Catholics teaches that you are saved by grace, faith and works of merit. God's grace is something you must earn by keeping the church sacraments. The priests/Fathers of the church are successors of the apostles and have all of Christ's authority on earth.
Problems:

Satan with his wolves in sheep's clothing has infiltrated many churches and corrupted it becoming like the corrupted Judaism that Jesus condemned. To rid most of Christianity of apostasy in the Church we first would have to go to the root of apostasy and purge out most of the doctrines that have infiltrated or those who never really left ROME to begin with. Home to Rome is what is happening today!
---kathr4453 on 3/24/10


Eloy:

You said:
All religion is proven to be idolatry, and only Christianity is proven to be true.

James 1:27:
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

If ALL religion is idolatry, then you disagree with James. Since his words are in the Bible and you're aren't, I think I will prefer to side with him on this particular issue.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/10


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All religion is proven to be idolatry, and only Christianity is proven to be true.
---Eloy on 3/24/10


I would say Cluny will say OH NO no such things go on among the Armenian's. We're the direct descendants to the Apostles FAR superior to any other denomination or faith...AND that my friends is Cluny's need to believe he is superior to any other, becoming SELF_RIGHTEOUS!!!

And the way SAINTS / Apostles becoming some extraordinary Saints are exalted above anyone else, is so ROMISH it not even funny! Yet, Paul calls EVERYONE a SAINT who belings to Christ. This is what Protestants have correct, we're all saints In Christ. And we don't EXALT anyone. WE EXALT Jesus Christ ALONE!!!

Paul called himself a servant for Jesus sake.
---kathr4453 on 3/24/10


MarkV I have placed your name in the do not agree with column. The question was not made up but came from a article that I found on the Internet. The fact that this statement"All religion thus believes in the need for one to become self righteous." is true, is so obvious that it destroys the credibility of anyone who cannot see the truthfulness of it.
---mima on 3/24/10


mima, I totally agree with that statement. Much like Catholocism, being a religion, we also have the Eastern Orthodox who practice religion as well. EO believe in the 7 sacraments as does the RCC, do not believe in eternal security, which when looked at is one trying to save themselves, if they don't believe God saves to the upmost.

Yes, they don't hold to RCC Authority, or worship Mary, but they do believe that Infant Baptism is essential for salvation.

It's still a false RELIGION working it's way to God whether they admit it or not!
---kathr4453 on 3/24/10


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There was also an article on line I read about pedophilia among Orthodox Jews. Only recently have victims and their families been reporting this to the civil authorities. Heretofore, it's been handled by their religious leaders, with predictable results.
---Cluny on 3/21/10

Cluny, you read LIES on line, pulling lies off the web. Any you want to tell me what I report of what I read on line you call me a LIAR.

Do you thing even in the Armenian arena such goings on have occurred, or are you just slandering Baptists and Jews?

WOW, What HYPOCRISY we have here!


GEE!
---kathr4453 on 3/24/10


Mima, I do not agree at all with that statement. And as Cluny mentioned, where did this statement come from?
It could be a trick question to get some responses to compare from where you got it. Or did you just make it up?
---MarkV. on 3/24/10


//...teach the ministers of the church, that the church is not their church, ...

No reason not to agree. I love it when my pastor in our church offers communion and says, 'this is not the table of this church but the table of the Lord and all who believe in him are invited to partake'.

A good church has a good team of elders & deacons that holds the pastor and its teaching to that of Scripture.

The pastor of the last church I belonged to forced out our chief elder and our chief deacon because of doctrinal & personal disputes. Prior to that our Associate pastor & Youth minister resigned. I was only an usher so no real threat to the pastor but could not stand the inhouse dirty fighting.
---Lee1538 on 3/23/10


well Lee, i totally agree with you, more often the love that churches propagate today is a surogate for the true love of God,
and the only way that we can deal with this is to "teach the ministers of the church, that the churci is
not their church, so they can not allow anyone in that God would expel.
not their responsability,it is God that builds His church, all we need to do as leaders is obey, and that includes to expel the consistant imoral.
the church is Gods, in this way that God is not looking for the crowds but for holiness. we need to pray and look for our hearts to conform with Christ's He needs to largen we have to lessen
---Andy3996 on 3/23/10


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Andy3996 -//Let christ be truly king of HIS church, and put His word in action the way it was meant.

Agree but church politics will not always permit that to be. All too often there have been those who have sought to protect the "pristine purity" of the church by sweeping things under the rug with the hope that such will not become public.

Those that have an appetite for young children do not always reveal themselves for what they are. Should we create some kind of inquisition board to root them out?
---Lee1538 on 3/22/10


Disagree.

According to the Bible:

James 1:27 "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."
---Mark_Eaton on 3/21/10


you know why all this is in the church?
1 for the murder of hundred of thousands true christians by an institute called themself "the church" we all know as the RCC.
satan took over because we allowed him.
2 for the sexual crimes that happened in different denominations.
Satan took over because we let him.
3 for the intollerance and sectarian idolatric tendencies we find in almost every denomination.
Satan took over because we wanted to be easy.
the bible sais that satan goes round as a roaring lion seeking whom to devour, and what did we do? nothing because of "love"
the Solution, Let christ be truly king of HIS church, and put His word in action the way it was meant.
---Andy3996 on 3/22/10


Lee1538 --I wouldn't try to dispute any of this. Many revel in the bad reputation of the church.
To them .."burning of thousand accused of witchcraft, heresy as well as other alleged crimes...no matter when they occured, are as real as last year's sexual abuse!

However, I don't try to sell "Christianity".
I try to introduce people to Jesus. I have to point out that many who claim to be "Christian" do not know HIM.
---Donna66 on 3/21/10


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\\And today the problems of sexual exploitation of children not always confined to the Roman Church. And such has been sued for billions of dollars.\\

In the last Baptist Church with which I was associated, the minister of music had a taste for teenaged boys.

There was also an article on line I read about pedophilia among Orthodox Jews. Only recently have victims and their families been reporting this to the civil authorities. Heretofore, it's been handled by their religious leaders, with predictable results.
---Cluny on 3/21/10


Donna66 //But I know Christianity, despite their denial, is a real show case for the self-righteous!

If you had to debate with those that hate the church, you would find the first thing they do is to point out the dark side of the Christian faith. Such things as the gross hypocrisy, burning of thousand accused of witchcraft, heresy as well as other alleged crimes.

And today the problems of sexual exploitation of children not always confined to the Roman Church. And such has been sued for billions of dollars.

Then you have the failings of leadership, something we are blessed to read about just about every day in the newspapers.

The non-believing self-righteous simply do not want to associate with such a crowd.
---Lee1538 on 3/21/10


I don't know how to answer the question. But I know that Christianity, depite their denial, is a real show case for the self-righteous!
---Donna66 on 3/21/10


No, I don't agree, because one word is left out - PAGAN. This is one of the characteristics of paganism - earning salvation, rewards, etc. or becoming a god by rituals.
---jerry6593 on 3/18/10


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Wow, I'll just about tackle any of them if God is in it! I agree. God is not religious, and God is not religion. In this I agree with the above statement..... God is our Savior, Creator.
---catherine on 3/17/10


We still have not been told the source and context of this quote.

If from a new-age type work, it's foolish.

If from a sociological or historical text, it's limited vision can be understood.
---Cluny on 3/17/10


Can we first define the word 'religion'? It occurs (I think only) once in the Bible (I am not sure where, in one of the later letters), and in that one case, it is used in a good way, something like 'pure and undefiled religion is to visit.....'. Are we using the word correctly?
---peter3594 on 3/17/10


OK, I found it, it's James 1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world (KJV). I think maybe we could also consider that, though generally in the Bible it is only minimally used
---peter3594 on 3/17/10


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mi ma, I gotta tell you, I'm not a part of any "Religion."

I'm in a "Relationship" with Jesus, so I really wouldn't know what other religions are up to and what other people feel they need to do to become righteous but you and I both know it's HIS Righteousness that we stand in, and are complete in, amen?

Anytime you hear the word "Religion" you know "Relationship" isn't part of that Religion, amen? I know alot of scholars on here are going to disagree with this statment, but I stand behind what I say in this case.
---Donna on 3/17/10


If you are normally a hateful and destructive person (evil, disgusting human being), then in order for you to be a member in good standing of the "Christian" community, you must decide to stop being hateful and destructive (you must "sacrifice" your old ways) by agreeing to "obey" all of the prohibitions against evil (commands and rules/ordinances) and "sin" (of course, evil and disgusting people really want nothing to do with Christianity and wouldn't be on this forum anyway).

Whenever evil, disgusting human beings become 'SUCCESSSFUL obeyers', they become puffed up and "SELF RIGHTEOUS", and they will have no true sentiment of "mercy" in their heart and mind (Matthew 9:13).
---more_excellent_way on 3/16/10


Good verses Michael.
This one in particular: Psa 1:6 "For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Matthew 5:6: "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

Whereas it is God who justifies, what is it that he justifies?
Job 1:1,8.

Romans 1:17_18: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,"

Note Paul saying "The just", not the justified.
---Nana on 3/17/10


The premise: Do you agree or disagree with this statement. "All religion contains methods, rituals and practices for man to become righteous enough to ascend or evolve to God. All religion thus believes in the need for one to become self righteous."

I disagree with you. All religion is an effort by man to come close to God. Christianity is not a religion. It is the efforts of God to reach man.

The first has no possibility of success. The second, being from God, continues to succeed beyond any one man's dreams.
---FatherBrendan on 3/17/10


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Certainly disagree.... there are reasons for methods and even rituals, but the reasons are to keep the services/practices orderly, so people can follow and understand, not so people are righteous because of the methods/rituals
---peter3594 on 3/17/10


\\but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
---mima on 3/16/10\\

1. I didn't say, "Thou fool"to him.

2. It's not determined if he is my brother.

3. You didn't answer my real question, which I shall repeat for your benefit.

Who said this, and in what context?
---Cluny on 3/16/10


Prv 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live, and go in the way of understanding.
Prv 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.
Prv 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid [before me].
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears,
---MIchael on 3/16/10


//All religion contains methods, rituals and practices for man to become righteous enough to ascend or evolve to God.

No because methods, rituals and practices are the means by which one may worship God or the means of accomplishing a worship service.

As to becoming righteous, there is none that is righteous apart from the work of God within the believer.

1 Cor. 1:30f But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
---Lee1538 on 3/16/10


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What is being referred to in the statement is..
.."religion" as an institution of man (MAN'S attempt at "spirituality").

The first part of the statement is not expressed accurately and can easily be misunderstood, but the second statement is profound (deep).

"GOD devotion" is NOT "religion". The intent of "God devotion" is that we live justly and peacefully with humanity, not that we be self righteous, hypocritical, prudish, and snobbish 'book obeyers' that have decided to stop being rebellious (rebellious people must follow "COMMANDMENTS"/ultimatums, they cannot be trusted to live the LAW OF LIBERTY).

James 1:25
" the PERFECT law...law of liberty".
---more_excellent_way on 3/16/10


cluny wrote,"The writer of this quote might be simply expressing himself poorly, or he might just be a fool (which word I do not use lightly).


The fact that you used the word at all is completely out of line.

Scripture Matthew 5:22,"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
---mima on 3/16/10


Disagree.
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
---lon on 3/16/10


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