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Who Worships Saints

Do Armenians worship and exalt Saints the way the RCC worships Saints. Is this what we are called to do?

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 ---kathr4453 on 3/24/10
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Statues,icons etc...
Definitions to these words have changed.

Worship
Lord
Master

These words have a true meaning That have been changed to suit the act of idolatry.
Do we pray to photographs of our dogs,family members etc....?
Is45:21-25
...I have sworn by Myself,the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,That unto Me every knee shall bow,every tongue shall swear....
Rom14:11-12
For it is written,"As I live ,saith the Lord,every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God"
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Idolatry is adultery to God.If your bending your knee in prayer-it should be to God- alone.
---char on 3/29/10


Makrv- Every men is given a measure of faith when God creates them - when God sent Christ, HE MADE HIS CASE THAT HE IS REAL.
If man doesn't want to believe it, then its man's fault.
YOU blame God for creating man sinful and causing man to go to hell.
Man going to hell or accepting the truth of God being real IS man's choice thats given to man BY GOD.
Thats how God works.
like it or lump it.
The Bible says this backs up this.
Your refuse to believe God GIVES man the choice. You think YOU are a robot.
I know that I LOVE GOD WITH ALL MY HEART SOUL MIND BODY AND STRENGTH and that God doesn't MAKE me love him. I love him because HE IS and because he saved me.
Do you or do you believe he forced HIS will on you?
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


As I said before, Holy Icons/Statues has it's origins in the Old Testament Judaism, not in the RCC as Kathr want us to believe. It was part of the Jewish Worship services. Holy Icons were prevalent in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. Ignatius


You can have a picture of your dog. Do you ask your dog to answer prayer and light candles in front of it?

Now please justify your statment. What Holy Icons or picture of human being were in the Sanctuary? By the way the Ark was behind a vail and could not be seen by any but the High Priest once a year. Also please give me a source to check.
---Samuel on 3/29/10


No. We are not "called" to worship saints. We are "called" to worship God only.
---jody on 3/29/10


God commands
Gen 6:14, Ex 12:7, Jos 3:8, 1John 3:23
God promises
Gen 6:18-20,Ex 12:23, Jos 3:13, John 3:16
People act in faith
Gen 6:22,7:5,Ex 12:28, Jos 3:15, Acts
God delivers as promised
Gen 7:23,Ex12:29-33, Jos 3:16-17, Eph 2:8
This is consistant throughout the Bible.
---MIchael on 3/29/10




Miche, you believe in the free will of man, that through his free will he can come to Christ, and refuse to believe it is all of God, you want to take credit for your salvation, and here you say:

"I can't believe it! You claim To be a man of God but don't give him credit?! My Lord, you should be ashamed and repent for giving man Credit for something God has done.
---miche3754 on 3/29/10"

The thing you accuse him of personally, you do yourself. It would be better if you did not accuse anyone personally, and stick to the doctrines. Stop trying to be the standard of truth like Kathr.
---Bobby-1 on 3/29/10


Ignatius, I thought he was a Catholic with his name. My message to him still stands. It does not matter who had images before the Catholic church, what matters is that the Catholic church had them and still does. And did do away with the Second Commandment. The Second Commandment was very important or God would not have given it Ignatius. When God took His people out of Egypt later when Moses went to the mountain to get the Ten Commandments the people had made a calf. God was very angry for their disobedience Ex. 32:7,8.
What had they done? They had made a sacred image that was meant to represent God. They were not trying to create a new God, but rather, to represent in an image the God who had set them free.
---MarkV. on 3/29/10


Ignatius #2: They were not worshipping a pagan God from Egypt, but God their deliever. And the fact that they had reduced God to a sacred image, no matter the good intentions, it incurred God's wrath. To worship God through a medium of a sacred image is to engage in Idolatry. God has not been slow to express His opposition to the use of sacred images. He has prohibited images because they cannot convey who God is. No image of Jesus, no matter how magnificent it is, can capture the nature of the Lord. God's displeasure at being represented in the form of an sacred image marks the darker moments in Israel's history. The Bible reveals to us that whenever God's people began making sacred images, it is a clear sign that they had departed from God.
---MarkV. on 3/29/10


Are bats birds? Do you celebrate Thanksgiving on the 4th Thursday of November? I notice that you have a computer, and yet there is nothing in the Bible about that.

If man is a liar, how did you learn to pick up a Bible, and how did you get saved? Man told you to pick up a Bible, and Man told you the path of salvation
---FatherBrendan on 3/28/10

The Holy Spirit through man told me what to do and called to me.
MAN can DO NOTHING WITHOUT GOD.
I can't believe it! You claim To be a man of God but don't give him credit?! My Lord, you should be ashamed and repent for giving man Credit for something God has done.
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


Mark V.,

You do realize that Father Brendan is not a Roman Catholic Priest, right? And you do realize that the Second Commandment is NOT violated by simply having Holy Icons/Statues, as the Greek translation of the Old Testament (LXX) makes it clear, right?

As I said before, Holy Icons/Statues has it's origins in the Old Testament Judaism, not in the RCC as Kathr want us to believe. It was part of the Jewish Worship services. Holy Icons were prevalent in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple.

What the Second Commandment forbid are Idols, not Icons/Statues in general. Is having a picture of my Golden Retriever Idolatry?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/28/10




\\" None of that mess is in the Bible I know that.
And I only believe God's word, not stuff man has made up or his traditions"
Mr Brenden, the Catholic Church through its catechisms' has change the original order of the "Ten Commandments"\\

On what authority do you say that?

Do you actually think that chapter and verse divisions are in the original?

What other authority do you have for chapter and verse divisions (let alone the Bible itself) other than tradition?

In any case, FatherBrendan is NOT a Roman Catholic, nor am I.

In any case, why do you call him Mister when the Bible forbids that title?
---Cluny on 3/29/10


Father Brenden, you said,
" None of that mess is in the Bible I know that.
And I only believe God's word, not stuff man has made up or his traditions"

Mr Brenden, the Catholic Church through its catechisms' has change the original order of the "Ten Commandments"
Now this is pure tradition not from Scripture but from those who wanted to introduce Heavenly Images to their Church. By removing the second command and moving up all the others and making the tenth commanding two commandments so as to show they follow the ten commandments. How nice of them, and you follow that, and even believe in that, and even have an excuse for it I suppose.
---MarkV. on 3/28/10


\\...It sounds like man made junk to me.
None of that mess is in the Bible I know that.
And I only believe God's word, not stuff man has made up or his traditions.
God says NOT to follow man made traditions.
So, I obey God before I will man.
Man fails where God wins every time. Man is a liar where God is always true...
---miche3754 on 3/27/10//
Are bats birds? Do you celebrate Thanksgiving on the 4th Thursday of November? I notice that you have a computer, and yet there is nothing in the Bible about that.

If man is a liar, how did you learn to pick up a Bible, and how did you get saved? Man told you to pick up a Bible, and Man told you the path of salvation
---FatherBrendan on 3/28/10


\\Cluny,

It sounds like man made junk to me.

None of that mess is in the Bible I know that.

.\\

Et Reliqua...

I didn't introduce those terms into the conversation, miche. a-kathr did.

I've done my best to avoid giving the theological terms for the ancient Christological heresies, or even mentioning these controversies, because I know that 90% of the posters here would not understand them.

Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, and Monothelietism ARE important, because they are all false ways of talking about who JESUS is and go against what is taught in the Bible. (The others are merely liturgical terms that a-kathr uncomprehendingly cut and pasted.)

Does this answer your question?
---Cluny on 3/27/10


Larry & Kathr4453 - Do you both celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween? If you celebrate any of these, you are in idolitry and worship idols. Have you ever put anyone or anything before God - spending more time with them than God? Have you ever made a god to suit yourself - "to me God is like....", or "I believe God is....."? If so, you have committed idolitry and worship idols. Idol worship is NOT just a Catholic thing (although it is in Catholism), it is a Prostatant thing too (no matter what denomination including non-denominational in Prostatantism).
---Leslie on 3/27/10


Cluny,

It sounds like man made junk to me.

None of that mess is in the Bible I know that.

And I only believe God's word, not stuff man has made up or his traditions.
God says NOT to follow man made traditions.
So, I obey God before I will man.
Man fails where God wins every time. Man is a liar where God is always true.

Ask yourself if that stuff really matters when it comes to God.
He says in his word that even though you think you are wise, God will prove you are a fool by what HE does. Don't trust in man's wisdom.
Be wise and knowledgeable by GOD'S Standard.
You might need that stuff to prove God is God, but I don't.
---miche3754 on 3/27/10


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Once again, a-kathr, you tell an untruth about Orthodoxy.

Your name is NOWHERE WHATSOEVER in the Synodikon of Orthodoxy.
---Cluny on 3/27/10


A quiz for a-kathr and others.

Without cutting and pasting from the web, please tell us in your own words what the following terms mean:

Orthros

Canon (as in Orthros Canon)

Monophysite

Nestorian

Monothelite

Bet you can't!
---Cluny on 3/27/10


As far as Ex 20:4-5 is concerned, the prohibition is not against Holy Icons/States in general. This become clear in the Greek version of the OT. When the Hebrews translated the Bible into Greek (LXX), they translated this word ("graven images" )simply as "eidoloi", i.e. "idols." The Hebrew word "pesel" is never used in reference to any of the images in the temple. So it becomes quite clear that the reference here is to pagan images.

If one takes this commandments as a prohibition against all images then clearly the cherubim in the Temple violate this command. Thus, we must conclude that this only apply to idols. Is a picture of my Golden retriever idolatry?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/26/10


any worship other than God,or his son, is idolatry,theres nothing wrong with admiring a persons spiritual maturity,and knowing the sacrifices that fellow brothers and sisters in the past have endured for the faith,these circumstances and trials they lived thru are used of the spirit to help increase the faith of those believers alive today.But to loose sight,that all they ever were,and elevate them is not our job,that right belongs to God alone,respect,yes,imul,ate their faith,yes,WORSHIP,A BIG NO.
---tom2 on 3/26/10


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After Orthros and before the Divine Liturgy, a procession is made with icons to some destined spot around the church. A Canon, to St. Theodore of Studium, is sung.

Once the procession arrives, the Synodicon is proclaimed aloud by the deacon begins with the memory of certain saints, confessors and heroes of the faith, to each of whose names the people cry out: "Eternal Memory!" three times. Then follows a long list of heretics, to each of which the answer is: "Anathema" once or thrice. These heresies comprise all opponents of the Orthodox Faith: Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, Monothelites, Iconoclasts and KATHR. Followed by "Eternal Memory" to pious emperors, from Constantine the Great on.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/10


\\Are babies not baptized who die, do they go to heaven or hell?\\

a-kathr, the official teaching of the Orthodox Church is that this is in God's hands, and not for us to pry into.

FWIW, both Luther and Calvin believed that unbaptized babies go to hell. Zwingli was the first to ever teach that babies dying before baptism are automatically saved, that this is a sign of election.

Rather late in the day, don't you think?
---Cluny on 3/26/10


5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,

How do you explain this passage?

---Samuel on 3/26/10

Easy:

The verse before say "have no other gods before me"v4 Put all verse together (1) Have no other gods (2) do not make images (3) do not bow down to them so. no other gods, no images and not to bow to them.
Here are a few scriptures :
Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold, two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.(Ex 25:16-19)

God Tells Moses to make a graven image with cherubim.

Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole, (Numbers 21:7-9)

Moses makes a bronze serpent, a graven image.
---Ruben on 3/26/10


\\Is the use of images idolotry? In church history the Iconoclasts stated yes and removed all images from the Easter Orthodox churches. The RCC fought against it and when Constatine V died it went back to images.

---Samuel on 3/26/10//

The first Sunday of Great Lent is called the Triumph of Orthodoxy, because in 787 A.D., the 7th Ecumenical Council rules that icons Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.
---FatherBrendan on 3/26/10


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"the Lord explained to me this morning what I couldn't say in words..." (Kathr)

I know you would like to believe so, but the lunatic in my area also believe he hears God voice in his head......Sometimes it is NOT God talking, but just what you FEEL!

"With all this Icon stuff, worship of Saints or close to it,"

Not so. It is not about Icons or Statues, but the heart of the individual. One can make anything thing into a Idol (television, computers, books, cars, etc). Live in a cardboard box if you want to play it safe....

As far as Calvinist, well John Calvin believed in the Risen Jesus. I do too. What is your point? A heterodox can be doctrinally sound in some areas of the Faith.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/26/10


Ignatius, question about instant infant salvation through water baptism. Are babies not baptized who die, do they go to heaven or hell? AND if an infant CAN know he was born in sin(if one can know, all must know) and knows Jesus died for his sin, aren't then all infants held accountable? So there is no such thing as the age of accountability?

I'm so impressed with infants who know they're sinners, yet can't even speak, and have yet to completely understand a language, can actually have a faith by hearing the Gospel.

Is this what you mean by salvation through the Church. If a baby born not in the church or any church, having no ability to TELL anyone to quickly baptize them, what are these babies not born into the church to do?
---kathr4453 on 3/26/10


\\How do you explain this passage?
---Samuel on 3/26/10
\\

How do you explain the later passages where God ordered images of cherubim to be made to adorn the Ark and later the walls of the Temple?
---Cluny on 3/26/10


\\Cluny, the Lord explained to me this morning what I couldn't say in words but knew in the spirit of truth. \\

a-kathr, God told me to tell you that He never told you any such thing.

\\ I know you say you are not Catholic, and neither is Calvinism?? however can you tells us what makes you different in this one aspect than Calvinism?
---kathr4453 on 3/26/10\\

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, a-kathr.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


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Is the use of images idolotry? In church history the Iconoclasts stated yes and removed all images from the Easter Orthodox churches. The RCC fought against it and when the Constatine V died it went back to images. The center of the Controversy then and now is the commandment Exd 20:4, 5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

How do you explain this passage?
---Samuel on 3/26/10


a-kathr, you can't say correctly what you know, but that doesn't matter, because most of what you know is inaccurate, as your own posts prove.------Cluny on 3/25/10


Cluny, the Lord explained to me this morning what I couldn't say in words but knew in the spirit of truth.

With all this Icon stuff, worship of Saints or close to it, along with Shawn MT saying it's ok for a Christian to get tattoos after their saved...is EXACTLY all the trappings one will easily fall into when anti-Christ rules for a while anyway. You all won't have any issues being tattooed or worshiping or bowing down to any image.

ALL of you, Your snickering and scoffing only tell me how vulnerably you are!
---kathr4453 on 3/26/10


"A baby cannot demonstrate any...faith. " (Laura)


Holy Scriptures does indicate that ,contrary to secular philosophy, a child, even a infant, can demonstrate Faith/Trust (Psalm 22:9, Luke 1:44).

Faith is a not product of reason. It is same secular philosophy of those who are pro-choice. If it isn't born, it is not human! It's O.K to kill it, it just a piece of meat! It's not murder!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


Ignatius, question based on your last comment. Calvin also believed that he too was regenerated at his infant Baptism. I know you say you are not Catholic, and neither is Calvinism?? however can you tells us what makes you different in this one aspect than Calvinism?
---kathr4453 on 3/26/10


This may annoy everyone though it isn't intended to...
Firstly, the name over the door can indicate some of what is going on inside, but it is no guarantee in much the same way (bad analogy in a way) that a business practice may not match the ideology of the original founder. One of the good and the bad things with Anglicanism is the range of "Biblical adherence" across different congregations.
Secondly, I know that I would have difficulty entering an Eastern Orthodox church but I know that I have gaps in my knowledge of it so who am I to judge?!
I draw a personal line at cults and that would include the RCC as an institution (my opinion) but not necessarily all it's members.
---simon7348 on 3/26/10


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"A baby cannot demonstrate any...faith. " (Laura)

Such thinking is a pure rationalistic and humanistic understanding of faith/reason. Larry Christenson, in his pamphlet "What About Baptism?", quotes Edmund Schlink (author of The Doctrine of Baptism) who state that the rejection of infant baptism was based on the secular philosophy of the sixteenth century.

Holy Scriptures does indicate that ,contrary to secular philosophy, a child, even a infant, can demonstrate Faith/Trust (Psalm 22:9, Luke 1:44).

Faith is a not product of reason. It is same secular philosophy of those who are pro-choice. If it isn't born, it is not human! It's O.K to kill it, it just a piece of meat! It's not murder!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


\\And Alan, maybe I can't say correctly what I know is Idolotry, but all this is Idolotry. \\

a-kathr, you can't say correctly what you know, but that doesn't matter, because most of what you know is inaccurate, as your own posts prove.

In any case, when I was a Baptist (before I got saved) we said prayers to pieces of cloth.
---Cluny on 3/25/10


\\When I see one names Sister this or that I KNOW it's Catholic.\\

a-kathr, did you know there are Episcopal, Anglican, Lutheran (one such community in my city), Reformed, and Baptist nuns (only they are called deaconesses) as well?

And don't forget Orthodox and other Eastern Christian nuns.

How well does this affect what you know?

Or are you going to let facts bother what you want to believe and think you know?
---Cluny on 3/26/10


we are called to be witnesses of jesus christ
---tom2 on 3/26/10


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\\kathr and mima are correct in bringing these facts to our attention. This is not salvation by faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ leading to salvation then being sealed by the Holy Spirit. A baby cannot demonstrate any such faith.\\

To say this is pure fideism and gnosticism and autosoterism.

Faith is NOT an exercise of intellectual powers and their external expression, but a RELATIONSHIP in which God takes the initiative, and it is one that begins in infancy, as the Bible teaches.
---Cluny on 3/25/10


\\Both the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox church have icons and idols that are part of their worship and service...I would bet that the majority of Eastern Orthodox like the RCC practice Idolotry with their statutes of Saints and pictures of Mary etc....All this other stuff IS ALL passed down from RCC , and that came from their statutes of Ceasar, and their gods.
#1 Please Print
First and foremost, Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and other such Apostolic Churches do NOT worship icons, statues, saints, Mary, or anyone else but God! We venerate icons as "windows to heaven." Statues the same, just veneration, with that veneration not to the paint and wood or marble, but to the saints to which that veneration is due.
---FatherBrendan on 3/25/10


\\ I would bet that the majority of Eastern Orthodox like the RCC practice Idolotry with their statutes of Saints and pictures of Mary etc....There were no Churches Paul ever name after anyone. Galatia, Ephesiand Corinthians were PLACES not people...All this other stuff IS ALL passed down from RCC , and that came from their statutes of Ceasar, and their gods....RCCis just the Old Roman Empire in DRAG!!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10//

#2 Please Print

True, the letters that Paul sent were to the Christians at Corinth, etc. However, none of the things that you mention are from Caesar. The basic worship service of all Apostolic Christians comes from the Jewish Temple and Synagogue services in Jerusalem.
---FatherBrendan on 3/25/10


#3 Please Print
kathr4453, you are showing yourself to be highly undereducated when it comes to things Christian. Have you ever been to an Orthodox Church?

Most of what you are spouting is evangelical/charismatic anti-Catholic bigotry that you probably learned at your mother's knee, and in most any Protestant church.

When we pray to Mary or the saints, we are asking them for their help in intercession, that's it. Don't you ask your friends to pray for you when you have a problem? That is what we are doing. When you mother asks you to do something, don't you at least consider it? Mary is the mother of Jesus, and we ask her to pray for us, nothing more.
---FatherBrendan on 3/25/10


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Kathr ... Ignatius is right. Wickepedia can't be considered to be authoritative.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/25/10


Kathr,

You do not have to copy and past from wikipedia. That is why you are so misinformed on many issues. You head to wikipedia, a unreliable secondary source (actually using such source is forbidden by many teachers/professors of many schools/universities).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


"Both the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox church have icons and idols that are part of their worship and service.

Leslie, I would bet that the majority of Eastern Orthodox like the RCC practice Idolotry with their statutes of Saints and pictures of Mary etc. " (Kathr)

More Anti-Catholic Biogtry I see.

You bet wrong Kathr. We do not worship Idols. You just think we do.

Actually, Holy Icons/Statues did not originated in RCC. It's has it origins in the Old Testament Judaism. It was part of the Jewish worship services (God ordained, mind you).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


Kathr ... You say it is idolatry. Who are you to say? You have no right, in fact you are insolent, to tell other people what they are doing. They know what they are doing ... you don't.

You are as bad as a certain blogger here, who when I say "God is Omniscient" tells everyone that I deny God's Omniscience.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/25/10


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"STATUES OF SAINTS" GOD ORDAINED OR IDOLATRY?

Both the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox church have icons and idols that are part of their worship and service.

Leslie, I would bet that the majority of Eastern Orthodox like the RCC practice Idolotry with their statutes of Saints and pictures of Mary etc.

And Alan, maybe I can't say correctly what I know is Idolotry, but all this is Idolotry. There were no Churches Paul ever name after anyone. Galatia, Ephesiand Corinthians were PLACES not people.

All this other stuff IS ALL passed down from RCC , and that came from their statutes of Ceasar, and their gods....

RCCis just the Old Roman Empire in DRAG!!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


A baby cannot demonstrate any such faith.

Thank you kathr for being a good trooper under fire!
---Laura on 3/25/10

What does this have to do about infant baptism?
---Ruben on 3/25/10


"Our Lady, Star of the Sea is an ancient title for the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. " (Kathr)

And your point is....? It is used by a Lutheran Church in my area not a Catholic Church by the way!

So if you come across such title, how would you know if it is a Catholic, Lutheran, or whatever church?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


"The goal of Eastern Orthodox Christians from baptism, when it is believed that they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, is to continually draw near to God throughout life. This process is called theosis or deification and is a spiritual pilgrimage in which each person strives to become more holy and more "Christ Like" within Jesus Christ." (Laura)

Which is what the Bible teach. And FYI, in Eastern Christianity, one is sealed in the Holy Spirit through Chrismation.

" This is not salvation by faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ leading to salvation then being sealed by the Holy Spirit."

It certainly is.

In IC.XC.
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


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When I see "Our Lady of so and so"...I KNOW It's CATHOLIC. When I see one names Sister this or that I KNOW it's Catholic.

When I see a Church called CALVARY this or that, I KNOW it teaching the doctrine of CALVARY!!!

When I see the Church of England, I KNOW what that is.

When I see United Methodist I KNOW who they are...when I see INDEPENDENT Baptist..I know what that is too.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


Isn't that a good thing you know? God forbid if you walk into a Catholic Church..lol
---Ruben on 3/25/10


Kathr ... "When I see the Church of England, I KNOW what that is"

What is it then? To follow your logic, it is the church that follows England ... their football, rugby or cricket teams maybe?

My CofE church is called Redland Parish Church. That is to identify it. A nearby church is called St Edyth's. But they don't worship or venerate her ... they don't even know who she is!

Kathr ... stick to subjects you know something about ... you're quite good when you do that.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/25/10


Larry, Kathr4453, & Ignatius - 1st Larry & Kathr4453 - What about Christmas and Easter celebrated by most if not all Christians which have Pagan (Satanic idol) orgins? Also, what about Christians making a god to suit themselves or putting things or people before God? Are you telling me that Christians are not into idol worship? They most certainly ARE. 2nd Ignatius - I do know the difference between "American" and "Arminian". Both are into idol worship, if you don't believe me look at Wall St. and see that Americans have money as their god and not God.
---Leslie on 3/25/10


Our Lady, Star of the Sea is an ancient title for the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ. The words Star of the Sea are a translation of the Latin title Stella Maris, first reliably used with relation to the Virgin Mary in the ninth century. The title was used to emphasize Mary's role as a sign of hope and as a guiding star for Christians. The Virgin Mary is believed to intercede as a guide and protector of those who travel or seek their livelihoods on the sea. This aspect of the Virgin has led to Our Lady, Star of the Sea, being named as patroness of the Catholic missions to seafarers, the Apostleship of the Sea, and to many coastal churches being named Stella Maris or Mary, Star of the Sea very popular throughout the catholic world.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


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The goal of Eastern Orthodox Christians from baptism, when it is believed that they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, is to continually draw near to God throughout life. This process is called theosis or deification and is a spiritual pilgrimage in which each person strives to become more holy and more "Christ Like" within Jesus Christ.

kathr and mima are correct in bringing these facts to our attention. This is not salvation by faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ leading to salvation then being sealed by the Holy Spirit. A baby cannot demonstrate any such faith.




Thank you kathr for being a good trooper under fire!
---Laura on 3/25/10


There is also a Lutheran Church in my area named, "Our Lady Star of The Sea Savior". Go figure!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


"When I see "Our Lady of so and so"...I KNOW It's CATHOLIC. When I see one names Sister this or that I KNOW it's Catholic." (Kathr).

That is your ASSUMPTION! One of the Church in my area has such title, but they are Oriental Orthodox (I bet you are clueless about them too), not Catholic.

Baptist, Lutherans, Anglicans, and others, named there Churches after Apostles, people, & events in the Bible.

A Lutheran Church in my area is named "The Annunciation of the Virgin Mary Lutheran Church".

You think you know everything, but you don't!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


\\To name Churches after anyone is to say you are a follower of THAT Person and their theology.||

No, it isn't.

|| However Bartholomew did not teach or preach the TRADITIONS you all do.
\\

Please tell me the traditions I preach. Be specific.

BTW--the connection of St. Bartholomew with the Armenians is that he was the person to evangelize them, just as St. Thomas went to India, St. Paul mostly around the Mediterranean, and St. Andrew to Thrace and Ukraine.
---Cluny on 3/25/10


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\\When I see "Our Lady of so and so"...I KNOW It's CATHOLIC. When I see one names Sister this or that I KNOW it's Catholic.

When I see a Church called CALVARY this or that, I KNOW it teaching the doctrine of CALVARY!!!\\

You don't know much, do you?

There are Orthodox Churches with this title too.

There's a big Orthodox Church in Maryland called Holy Cross.

And there are two Eastern Catholic monasteries in California called Holy Resurrection.

What do you think they are preaching?
---Cluny on 3/25/10


Alan,

Thank-you. I am gald I am not the only one who have notice Kathr biogtry against the RCC, and now, like mima, she see Catholicim in every corner. She is clueless about the RCC, Eastern Orthodoxy, etc, but she thinks she know every thing. She thinks because she spent 5 mins in wikipedia, she is a expert.

"Are you called SAINT Cluny? Or do you have to be canonized to be given that title?" (Kathr)

Which proves you know nothing about the Eastern Orthodox Church.

"To name Churches after anyone is to say you are a follower of THAT Person and their theology."

No, that is your belief. Such statements are illogical. If I name my business after my city, am I worshipping my city?

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 3/25/10


Alan, when reading Revelation and Jesus words to the Churches AT these places, I see no church of ROME or the church of St. Peter, Paul or anything like that. If these Churches were IN FACT the original Churches established by the Apostles, THEY certainly did not name any after themselves, nor did Jesus address any that way either.

When I see "Our Lady of so and so"...I KNOW It's CATHOLIC. When I see one names Sister this or that I KNOW it's Catholic.

When I see a Church called CALVARY this or that, I KNOW it teaching the doctrine of CALVARY!!!

When I see the Church of England, I KNOW what that is.

When I see United Methodist I KNOW who they are...when I see INDEPENDENT Baptist..I know what that is too.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


I agree with alan to name a church after a person does not make the church worship that person. Churches in the New Testament were named after the cities they were in.

What is worship? Is it respect? No. Is it regardomg a person as an authority or very important? No.

Worship is to place that person or thing in a place only GOD deserves. When we look to anything or devote time and energy or honor that only belongs to GOD to anyone or anything else. That is idolotry.
---Samuel on 3/25/10


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Kathr ... "To name Churches after anyone is to say you are a follower of THAT Person and their theology" RUBBISH!

Near me are the following Anglican churches "St Mary of Magdelen"...You take your hatred of the RCC too far, and compound it by ignorance about Eastern, Orthodox, and Protestant churches. ---alan8566_of_uk on 3/25/10


Agreed Alan. At least as far as the Anglican church I attend, we do not follow or proclaim St Andrew, but Jesus Christ. Kathr, you're welcome to listen to sermons from the website if you have an interest in backing up your claim... "St Andrews Leyland" searched in Yahoo UK.
---simon7348 on 3/25/10


As I have warned you earlier, a-kathr, better to be silent and thought ignorant and silly than spout off about things of which you clearly know nothing and remove all doubt.

BTW--why are you letting fly at the Armenians?

Could it be that you had never heard of them until i brought them up?
---Cluny on 3/25/10


Kathr ... "To name Churches after anyone is to say you are a follower of THAT Person and their theology" RUBBISH!

Near me are the following Anglican churches "St Mary of Magdelen" "All Saints", "Holy Trinity", "St Bartholomew", "St Peter & St Paul", "All Souls"

None "follow that person" The names differentiate the parishes in which the churches are located.

You take your hatred of the RCC too far, and compound it by ignorance about Eastern, Orthodox, and Protestant churches.

Why not listen to what the correspondents say? They are more likely to know the doctrine and practice of their own CHRISTIAN denominations than you!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/25/10


Yes Leslie there is plenty of idolatry but the qeustion concerns saints. I do not think protestants worship and exalt saints which is, next to Mary, the biggest area of dispute between Catholics and Protestants.
---larry on 3/24/10

Thank you larry.

Cluny, we have a Baptist Church and Mason Temple all in the same, one in the same, all on the same marque. Shocking!

Are you called SAINT Cluny? Or do you have to be canonized to be given that title?

To name Churches after anyone is to say you are a follower of THAT Person and their theology. However Bartholomew did not teach or preach the TRADITIONS you all do. You have slandered his name as an Apostle by taking his name and teaching your own theology/religion!
---kathr4453 on 3/25/10


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\\And you think the RCC alone name churches after Apostles? Baptist do the same, as least many of the ones I went to. Many other Protestant sects do the same. Although I don't understand why you mention this.\\

In my hometown was one called Weeping Mary Independent Baptist Church.

And on a bus, I saw the name, "St. Beulah Baptist Church." There is no such person, btw.
---Cluny on 3/24/10


Kathr,

I am not a Armenian. Apparently, you do not know the difference between the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


Leslie,

Do you understand the difference between "America" and "Armenian"? It seems you do not.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


Hi kathr4453,
May I ask a personal question?
Is there something that prevents you from proofreading and correcting spelling mistakes before you submit your entry?
I ask this in sincerity to understand.
---MIchael on 3/24/10


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A-kathr, why do you ask a question and then answer it yourself when you clearly don't know the answer?

But if by "worship" you mean the LATREIA that belongs to God alone, I don't know ANBODY that does that, and what's more, YOU don't either.

You just think you do.

But then, you seem to think a lot of things.

Almost all o f them wrong.
---Cluny on 3/24/10


Yes Leslie there is plenty of idolatry but the qeustion concerns saints. I do not think protestants worship and exalt saints which is, next to Mary, the biggest area of dispute between Catholics and Protestants.
---larry on 3/24/10


"I found you believe in all teh sacraments like teh RCC, mane your churches after teh Apostles, and even worship SAINTS...." (kathr)

The fact that you just stated that the Armenian Apostolic Church worship (I am assuming you mean "worship" in the highest sense, "Latreia") proves alone that you have not study them from a authentic Armenian website or you are simply trying to distort what they believe because you wearing some Anti-Catholic bigotry glasses.

And you think the RCC alone name churches after Apostles? Baptist do the same, as least many of the ones I went to. Many other Protestant sects do the same. Although I don't understand why you mention this.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


I did study many authentic web sites. I found you believe in all teh sacraments like teh RCC, mane your churches after teh Apostles, and even worship SAINTS like St Patricks day or St Barthoulemou ( sorry about hte spelling)

With that you like teh RCC do honor teh Apostles and exalt them. I am a SAINT. Yet God forbid anyone would dare to exalt me.

This is what I am tallking about. You pat yourselves on teh back becausse like teh RCC you are teh direct descendents of teh Apostles, like Peter being teh first pope.
---kathr4453 on 3/24/10


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Kathr,

Instead asking this question here where most are ignorant of Eastern Christianity and many are Anti-Catholic bigots, why don't you visit a authentic Armenian website. Google "Armenian Apostolic Church" and you find a canonical Armenian website where you can what they believe and don't believe not what people here THINK they believe and practice (if I am not mistaken there is a Armenian site in which you can e-mail to ask questions). Perhaps there is a Armenian Apostolic Church near your area in which you can go and ask questions.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


America not only worships saints, but Pagan (Satanic) idols as well - but Christians also do this. America has a bull on Wall St. which is representative of Mammon (money) - you cannot worship both God and Mammon. America also has other Pagan (Satanic) symbols like in Washington Monument (the tall tranglular site is for the Pagan god Nimrod (a.k.a. Baal)). Christians also do idol worship in celebrating Christmas and Easter - both have orgins in Pagan worship of Baal (Nimrod) as well. God said we are NOT to mix the holy with the perverse (clean & unclean). For more go to Passion For Truth Ministries and get the DVD "Truth or Tradition".
---Leslie on 3/24/10


"Groups that pray to saint....Anglican/Episcopal" (Friendly Blogger)

That will depend on which Anglican you speak to. Such practice can be found High-Church Anglos though, but not in Low-Church Anglos, which have a more Evangelical/Protestant frame of mind.

As far as Episcopals are concerned, I have visited a Episcopal Church, and they don't believe one should ask a Saint in heaven to pray for us. Where you got that they believe otherwise?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/24/10


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