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Explain The Eucharist

Read John 6:53. How can this mean anything except that we must partake in the Eucharist, as the 1st Century Christians did?

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 ---FatherBrendan on 3/26/10
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The BIBLE teaches that the bread, flesh is the WORD of God.
It also teaches that the blood, wine IS the Holy Spirit.
It does not say that bread and wine are transfigured to the body and blood of Christ.
Bread and wine don't save you.
It is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit that is what Jesus is teaching that is important.
But since you are carnal minded you don't understand what Jesus was really teaching at the last supper.
We do not follow apostolic churches established by MAN.
We follow the Church of Christ established by Christ and HIS word- the Bible.
If you did, the HS would show you the truth.
---miche3754 on 3/31/10


He says that his flesh IS the WORD and that the WORDS he speaks are spirit and LIFE.

---miche3754 on 3/31/10

As you should know, the word Spirit is never use symbolic through out the Bible.

So which words did Jesus say gives Spirit and life "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."(jhn 6:54-55)
---Ruben on 3/31/10


Great!! They become flesh and blood before consumption, which I am understanding when the appropriate prayer takes place. Does it taste like blood and flesh? Does it still taste like bread and wine? How do you know it has been transformed if it still tastes the same? Doesn't unleavened bread get eaten with the lamb at passover? Didn't Jesus break unleavened bread at the passsover when He said it was His body? Why the switch to leavened bread? If you use the other bread, can it not also transform with the appropriate prayer? Is it just a prayer for thankfulness as Jesus did and Paul proclaimed, or is it a prayer for transformation?
---MIchael on 3/31/10


Ruben, Cluny

You two aren't getting it.
Jesus tells us that his flesh IS THE WORD.
That means we are to eat the words that he speaks to us because it is literally his words that are spirit and life.
I don't see how you can miss the connection.
And you sit here and tell Michael that these things are spiritually discerned yet you are not spiritually discerning the fact that the Jesus' flesh = bread = word.
Jesus does NOT say that the Holy Spirit transfigures his flesh, never. He says that his flesh IS the WORD and that the WORDS he speaks are spirit and LIFE.
Thinking you are supposed to literally eat his flesh(eww gross) is not being spiritual that is very carnal.
---miche3754 on 3/31/10


\\When Christ broke bread on His last passover, He had not given His flesh yet on the cross. ...
Since the bread is cooked, will the flesh be cooked as well?
---MIchael on 3/30/10\\

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, Michael, which you clearly are not doing.

Most of what you're saying are the heresies of receptionism and stercoarianism.

The Apostolic Churches (NOT oneness) teach that the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ during the appropriate prayer by the power of the Holy Spirit.

And Orthodox, following the tradition of the Apostles, use leavened bread (artos, not azymos).
---Cluny on 3/31/10




When Christ broke bread on His last passover, He had not given His flesh yet on the cross. How is it that He gave it to His disciples before He gave it on the cross?
When does this transfer take place? before it hits your lips? as it goes down your pipes? before it gets mixed with the digestive fluids? Does it not digest the same way as with other like elements?
Does the unleavened bread digest more like meat? Does the wine coagulate at some point?
Since the bread is cooked, will the flesh be cooked as well?
---MIchael on 3/30/10


He was that bread that came down, the Manna, in the wilderness John 6. But the bread only sustained, not saved or became Christs body.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/10


Then you disagree with Jesus:

I am that bread of life."Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my Flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. "

"For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. "(JHn 6:55)
---Ruben on 3/30/10


Ruben,
Christ meant for us to eat his WORD because the WORD and Jesus' flesh ARE ONE AND THE SAME!

Kath it is great to have you back!!!
Loved your post sis!
---miche3754 on 3/30/10


\\Jesus said I am the door, I am the vine, but is He a vine or door?\\

Actually, the classical exegesis of these passages has been used to PROVE that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood.

Try again.

||Cluny,
It is okay for you to stay carnal. Jesus stated what we are to do and if you believe it is literal, that is fine, but I know from studying God's word he didn't mean it the way you think.||

miche, not only I but other Christians here have given you sound doctrine, and you refuse to receive it.

Therefore, following the teaching of the Apostle, you are rejected in the Name of Jesus.
---Cluny on 3/30/10


Jesus said, This is my Body that has been broken for you, eat in REMEMBERANCE of Me.

This is the Blood of the New Covenant...Paul also tells us when we come to the Lords Table we do in remembering His death until He comes.

Bread and wine do not turn into anything supernatural any more than water can save.

If we placed our faith in the elements of the earth and think it turns into GOD and that saves, how sad!

John said Jesus would Baptize with FIRE, how many can testify their Baptism with FIRE that you broke out into flames?

Jesus is our Passover Lamb, but is He a LAMB?

Who understands the SPIRITUAL meaning of these things except those who are Born Again and enlightened to understand?
---kathr4453 on 3/30/10




"Thy words were found, and I did eat them, and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: ----,"Jeremiah 15:16.

Revelation 10:
9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up, and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up, and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11---, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/10


Jesus said I am the door, I am the vine, but is He a vine or door? He was that bread that came down, the Manna, in the wilderness John 6. But the bread only sustained, not saved or became Christs body. In the Promise land the bread ceased and they ate HUGE Grapes, a land filled with Milk and Honey etc.

In Rev God will give the HIDDEN Manna to those who overcome. The Hidden Manna represents the Milk and Honey, Grapes full ear of corn etc, that was only on the other side of the Jordan.

You will never taste THAT until you overcome ALL idolatry and worship God through Jesus Christ ALONE, confessing your sin to HIM ALONE for forgiveness.
---kathr4453 on 3/30/10


miche3754 //John chapter 1 says Jesus IS the WORD who became flesh. So, what AGAIN is it we are supposed to eat? THE WORD.

Absolutely Brilliant!!!!!

---Lee1538 on 3/29/10


Isn't that what we have been telling you, we are suppose to eat the Word who became Flesh! What did Jesus gave us for life of the world, Word or Flesh? What did Jesus tell us to eat, his Word or his Flesh?
---Ruben on 3/30/10


Cluny,
It is okay for you to stay carnal. Jesus stated what we are to do and if you believe it is literal, that is fine, but I know from studying God's word he didn't mean it the way you think.
He even says so. I gave you the scripture that he didn't mean it literally, but it is okay, even the disciples could not eat the meat of the word until Jesus showed and taught them.
---miche3754 on 3/30/10


\\Cluny,
I am only trying to show you that what Jesus said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood was not literal.\\

Your denying Jesus spoke literally does not make it so.
---Cluny on 3/30/10


Cluny,
When Jesus says "eat and drink" he means to consume, take in.
That is what happens when you read God's word and commune with the Holy Spirit.
This is what Jesus told us to do.
He did not mean for us to eat bread and drink wine.
---miche3754 on 3/30/10


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miche3754 * Go one step further...
John chapter 1 says Jesus IS the WORD who became flesh. So, what AGAIN is it we are supposed to eat? THE WORD.

But the word became Flesh! So what are we supposed to eat? The FLESH.

miche3754 * He says LET MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU AND YOU IN MINE.

And you abide in his words, when YOU believe in his words "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Jhn 6:54-55




Let's take it a step further...
---Ruben on 3/30/10


John 6:56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

---Nana

Nana, Which words did Jesus just speak about/JHN 6:53-56

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
---Ruben on 3/30/10


Cluny,
I am only trying to show you that what Jesus said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood was not literal.

He gives you many examples of.
The pharisees were shocked when he told them "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you are not of me". They believed he was speaking about cannibalism. At first, so did the disciples. Do you believe the pharisees are right? Because eating bread and drinking wine pretending they are Jesus IS metaphoric cannibalism.

its not bread/wine we are supposed to eat/ drink. Those things are just food and what a man eats literally goes through and out of him literally.
See John 6:61-63
Jesus tells the disciples that HIS WORDS are spirit and LIFE.
---miche3754 on 3/30/10


--Desire the Word, Eat Him up, Believe, Drink Him in, and be Filled
---MIchael on 3/29/10
AMEN!!!!!!!
Wonderful scripture bro!!

And lee thank you! God revealed that to me when I was studying his word.
Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened!!
---miche3754 on 3/30/10


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John 6:56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 17:21: That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
---Nana on 3/30/10


\\miche3754 //John chapter 1 says Jesus IS the WORD who became flesh. So, what AGAIN is it we are supposed to eat? THE WORD.


Absolutely Brilliant!!!!!
\\

Lee and miche, you don't really think the Word (Logos) in John 1 means a spoken or written word, do you?

Do you actually think that "The Word was made flesh" means that Jesus is the complete embodiment of everything in the Bible?

If you do, you totally miss the point.

You believe what you want to believe. You will anyway.

I'll believe our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ and His holy Word and words.
---Cluny on 3/30/10


Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
--Desire the Word, Eat Him up, Believe, Drink Him in, and be Filled
---MIchael on 3/29/10


miche3754 //John chapter 1 says Jesus IS the WORD who became flesh. So, what AGAIN is it we are supposed to eat? THE WORD.


Absolutely Brilliant!!!!!

The belief that the shaman can change bread & wine into the actual body & blood of Christ comes from the Dark Ages when they sought to change raw metals into gold.

Effectively the belief behind transubstantiation was that they could withhold salvation to those who would not support the policies of the Roman Church for ones salvation depended upon eating the actual body of Jesus. Mere superstition employed to control the ignorant masses.
---Lee1538 on 3/29/10


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Passage John 6:51:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

I believe Jesus gave us his Flesh on the cross, you believe He was talking figuratively....
---Ruben on 3/29/10

Go one step further...
John chapter 1 says Jesus IS the WORD who became flesh. So, what AGAIN is it we are supposed to eat? THE WORD.
He says LET MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU AND YOU IN MINE.
Brother open your eyes! Not speaking figuratively but METAPHORICALLY!
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


In other word, miche, when Christ said, "This is My Body," you say He really means "This is NOT my body."
---Cluny on 3/29/10

See you are so carnal you still don't get what Jesus was really saying.
When he said my Body... Who IS Jesus, Cluny?
HE IS THE WORD!!!!!! BECAME FLESH!!!!!
Eat HIS WORDS so that THEY LIVE AND ABIDE AND YOU!!! John chap.1
And NOW His body is NOT physical.
His BODY is CHRISTIANS.
YOU are the temple NOW. Not a building.
It is sad that you think Jesus was teaching cannibalism.
You make so much of his death but pass by HIS RESURRECTION! The real reason why Christians can have everlasting life.
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


religious deception easily understood when Christs symbols in John 6:53 polluted with pagan Mirtha's customs

The Father in Heaven HATES pagan tradition per Holy Scripture

why TRUE Christians are told believe EVERY word from God - live in world AND be separate - do not partake in evil customs/traditions of god of this world 2Corin 4:4 ...sheeple follow their non-biblical religious traditions MORE THAN Holy Scripture Mark 7:6-7

worship of pagan Mirthas now "christianized" eucharist unsupported in John 6:53 - simply RE-invention of pagan worship honored by an institution that symbolically worships SUN in sky ...not SON of man

either believe Gods Word or fables given by MORTAL MEN polluting John 6:53
---Rhonda on 3/29/10


Yes, we had better, start.Eucharist>[1] "Do this in remembrance of Me". In the marvelous life and ministry of our Savior. [2] We are actually being nourished and empowered from the Risen Christ THROUGH THE SPIRIT. [3] Till He comes we are to renew our minds by keeping them on Christ and His church.....In first Corinthians 11: 17-34 Paul rebuked the Corinthians for their pride and greed during the meal that accompanied the Eucharist institution of the Lord's supper and emphasized the need for Christians to partake in a worthy manner. Many of them who had not been doing so were weak and sick, and may had even died as a result of God's judgment [1 Corinthians 11: 27-34].
---catherine on 3/29/10


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Such fail to understand Jesus often spoke figuratively.

John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.
---Lee1538 on 3/28/10

Passage John 6:51:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

I believe Jesus gave us his Flesh on the cross, you believe He was talking figuratively....
---Ruben on 3/29/10


I don't have a Catholic bible, but I never saw the word "eucharist" in any version of scripture I ever saw. This should be a hint to every bible reader that it is simply a tradition that Catholic elders have decided upon all by themselves ("tradition" is NOT spiritual).

---more_excellent_way on 3/27/10


In your Protestant Bible do you see the word "Trinity" or for that matter the word "Bible". So Tradition pays a big part doesn't it!
---Ruben on 3/29/10


Lee1538* His flesh & blood are not scattered all over the world as the superstitious want to believe,

When Jesus said he will be with us always even to the end of the world, this was another superstitious!

Lee1538* Such fail to understand Jesus often spoke figuratively.

John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech.... you plainly about the Father.

Lee, how is telling us about the Father the samething about his Body and Blood ?

Such fail to understand he also spoke literally.

John 6:54-55 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."
---Ruben on 3/29/10


\\Which elders/people are responsible DOES NOT MATTER (we could argue forever WHO is responsible).\\

That means you can't answer the question about supporting your own accusation.

\\Christ told us to eat his flesh.
What does that mean?\\

In other word, miche, when Christ said, "This is My Body," you say He really means "This is NOT my body."
---Cluny on 3/29/10


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Right.

And the Church God started is the ORTHDOOX Church.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find the term "invisible Church."
---Cluny on 3/29/10

Wrong.

Anyone with Christ IN them is THE Church... The Bride...
The Church is NOT traditions or buildings.
It is those who have Christ in them the Hope of Glory.
The Mystery that was hidden in the OT that was revealed to Peter and to Paul.
"Know ye not that YE- YOU - ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD!!!!!"
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


Cluny, if you were speaking to my comment go ahead and post my name. I do not mind. You said there is no invisible Church, but the Bible says there is, it is made up of all who are spiritually alive to Christ, who form the body of Christ, who are spiritually baptized into one body, and Jesus is the Head of that body. You cannot see who they are visibly, that is why you cannot tell who is born again and who is not. And those who are spiritually a part of that body, physically belong to visible churches. They are in Christ in the fact that Christ lives in their lives. They do not have to eat Christ because He is a part of them spiritually. He will never leave them are forsake them. He will be with you forever.
---MarkV. on 3/29/10


\\What you call the Church is the institution, what God calls the Church is the genuine believers who belong to Him, and not everyone in the visible church belong to Him.\\

Right.

And the Church God started is the ORTHDOOX Church.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find the term "invisible Church."
---Cluny on 3/29/10


The point is that the practice of physically eating and drinking Jesus is a FALSE practice/belief. Which elders/people are responsible DOES NOT MATTER (we could argue forever WHO is responsible).

Everything that we ingest goes into the stomach and is DIGESTED,....are you saying that we DIGEST Jesus?

This is what the bread of life and the living water do for us....

Revelation 7:16

"They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more".

John 7:38
"rivers of LIVING water".

We can accept the bread of life as savior,....

John 4:14
"but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst".

Jesus came by water and blood (1 John 5:6).
---more_excellent_way on 3/29/10


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/ The Reformation confused people terribly, including a lot of people on this list.
---FatherBrendan on 3/28/10

With respect brother, Thats absolutely NOT truth,
Christ told us to eat his flesh.
What does that mean?
It means eat his words- THE BIBLE.
Jesus told us to drink his blood.
What does that mean?
certainly NOT drinking wine.
It means drink of HIS SPIRIT WHICH IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Now who is really confused?
Just because some are not mature enough in the Holy Spirit to realize they don't need to eat bread and drink wine to HAVE CHRIST and GIVE THANKS TO HIM, please don't call the mature confused.
Grow in Spirit and you will realize, Jesus wasn't telling you to drink wine and eat bread.
---miche3754 on 3/29/10


\\"Which elders", Cluny???

Tell me how that really matters? Did you just look that up as a comeback to me?\\

YOU were the one who blamed the Eucharist on "Roman Catholic Elders."'

Therefore, it's up to you to substantiate your contention.

In the mean time, the word "eucharist" is indeed in the Greek New Testament.

Did you know that?
---Cluny on 3/28/10


FatherB, my post about the Reformers was meant to be ironic. My sympathies lie more on your side of the argument.
---ger.toshav on 3/28/10


\\Spirit filled Christians should not be defending pedophilia. ...Pedophilia is BAD and WRONG. It is a 'NO-NO', Cluny, and you can assume that God does not like it (it is against His will and is also a BAD tradition).
---more_excellent_way on 3/27/10//
I AM NOT DEFENDING PEDOPHILIA!
With that said, I spent some years in the Assemblies of God, and while I was a member of a particular church, the music minister and the kids pastor were both discharged for pedophilia. The music minister transferred to another AG church in California, where he did the same thing! The kids' pastor went to the Baptists. in either case, there was nothing said about them being pedophiles!
---FatherBrendan on 3/28/10


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Ignatius, we agree on a lot after all. Another area you also touch is that you say,
"The Bible said the Church would be guided to all truth, not some (Matt 16:18, John 16:13, 17:20, Eph 4:4-6). The Holy Spirit did not at any time just quit guiding The Church. It never left her.'

What you call the Church is the institution, what God calls the Church is the genuine believers who belong to Him, and not everyone in the visible church belong to Him. So the Holy Spirit never left the genuine Christians, but was never in the lives of those who were not saved. And many in that institution were not saved for their evidence is their atrocities. They were not conducted by people with the Holy Spirit.
---MarkV. on 3/28/10


Jesus when He ascended took His place at the right hand of God the Father in the heavenly.

His flesh & blood are not scattered all over the world as the superstitious want to believe, nor is there a need to re-sacrifice Jesus.

While Jesus did change water into wine, no shaman has the power to change bread & wine into the actual body and blood of Christ. They merely use the superstition of ignorant men to as a means of control.

Such fail to understand Jesus often spoke figuratively.

John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.
---Lee1538 on 3/28/10


#2. If I can have a firm conviction that the Fathers was guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to canon of the Holy Scriptures, then I can have a firm conviction that the Holy Spirit guided the Fathers when it comes to other areas of the Faith: Christology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology, Sacramentology, etc. The Bible said the Church would be guided to all truth, not some (Matt 16:18, John 16:13, 17:20, Eph 4:4-6). The Holy Spirit did not at any time just quit guiding The Church. It never left her.

This is how The Church has been able to withstand all of the attacks (heretical teachings, etc) upon it from outside The Church and worse, from within The Church since the 1st century.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/28/10


Mark V. We both agree on one thing. We trust in the Holy Spirit. Personally, I trust the Fathers because I trust in the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Fathers were not infallible. Was a Father right when it comes to doctrine A, but wrong when it comes to doctrine B? Yes. Did some of the Fathers held to personal opinions? Yes. That is why we Eastern Orthodox Christians follow the consensus teachings of the Fathers. If a topic is important, we will find some consensus among them. In the end, the ultimate authority in the Church is not the Fathers, but the Holy Spirit.

Out of imperfect men, perfect doctrine came about because the doctrine is God's (not man's).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/28/10


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Ignatius, in respect to your believes, where you and I differ is on whom you put your faith and trust in. My faith is in the Holy Spirit who guided a group of man to make sure we got the written word of God and except what was truth already. They didn't make the Truth available to us God did.
The Church has been wrong in many things for 2,000 years and history tells us of such terrible actions it did against humanity.
When the Church faught against the heretical views against Christ deity, It was the Holy Spirit making sure the Truth continued, not the man you trust so much. All through the years the members of the Church have put their faith in the Church no matter what it did, and not faith in whom we serve, and that is God.
---MarkV. on 3/28/10


\\What I am beginning to understand from this blog is that no one really understood the true nature of the elements of the Lord's Supper until the Protestant Reformers straightened everybody out in the 16th century.
---ger.toshav on 3/27/10//

Just the opposite is true. All of the pre-Reformation Churches (Those of Apostolic origin) did understand the true nature of the Eucharist. The Reformation confused people terribly, including a lot of people on this list.
---FatherBrendan on 3/28/10


"Which elders", Cluny???

Tell me how that really matters? Did you just look that up as a comeback to me?

You just keep looking for a way to oppose me, don't you, Cluny. This time, it's simply pathetic. If you want to show off your knowledge about Berengarius and 1088, don't use me to do it.

Don't play innocent about what you said about pedophilia.
---more_excellent_way on 3/28/10


\\I don't have a Catholic bible, but I never saw the word "eucharist" in any version of scripture I ever saw.\\

You won't find "rapture," "invitation hymn", "revival" or "altar call" in it, either.

||This should be a hint to every bible reader that it is simply a tradition that Catholic elders have decided upon ....
\\

Which elders, MEW? Please be specific. Who and When?

I know that Berengarius was the first person to deny that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.

But he lived in 1088, which is rather late, dont you think?


||S|pirit filled Christians should not be defending pedophilia. \\

Tell me how I've defended it.
---Cluny on 3/27/10


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Mark V. It is fine that you disagreed. This is what we have received from the beginning. I doubt that the Church has been wrong for the past 2,000 years, given the fact she has been guided by the Holy Spirit (Matt 16:18, John 16:13, 17:20, Eph 4:4-6, etc). You can't come 2,000 years later and say we have been wrong. If I can trust the Fathers when it comes to the canon of the Scriptures, Christology, Soteriology, Ecclesiology, then I can trust the Fathers when it comes to sacramentology. All the Ancient Liturgies demonstrated the Church' belief in the Holy Gifts.

And FWIW, that the Bread and Wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ is a act of the Holy Spirit, not the priest (this is clear in our Divine Liturgies).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/27/10


The word eucharist comes from the Greek 'eucharisto' meaning thanksgiving. It involves Christians giving thanks for what Jesus did for us. Surely we should give thanks for His amazing gift, especially as Easter approaches.
---Warwick on 3/28/10


more excellent way,

I never saw the word "Bible" either, but here you are using it. Hum....isn't that strange?

The word "Eucharist" (Gk. "eucharistia"), meaning thanksgiving, is another name for the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion, a Sacrament or Holy Mystery instituted by Jesus Christ (Luke 24:14-19). It is quite clear you have not study the book of Acts, 1 Cor 11:16-34, and Early Church history, where we have the Eucharistic ceremony being practiced in the Church. Why do you think the Corinthian Christians came together (in the Divine Liturgy) to partake of, in which they were being disordering during the service (1 Cor 11:20)? FYI, It is was NOT a common meal!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/28/10


The Eucharist is a carnal example of something Jesus was teaching spiritually.
The 1st century Christians did not drink wine and eat bread and believe it was Christ.
They did "drink" of the Holy Spirit and "ate" the Word of God.
That what Christ was talking about.
He was not teaching cannibalism.
He was teaching us how we grow in grace and mature as Christians in HIM.
Blood = wine = The Holy Spirit.
Flesh = bread = The Word of God.
BOTH ARE JESUS! AND ARE IN HIM AND ARE HIM.
See St. John chapter one.
The Bible says it like this if you open your eyes, put on the mind of Christ and listen to what the Holy Spirit teaches.
---miche3754 on 3/28/10


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If the Greek word for "is" means "signifies," then "This is my body" means "This signifies my body," and "The Word was God" means "The Word signifies God." You can't have one one way and the other the other way.
---ger.toshav on 3/27/10


What I am beginning to understand from this blog is that no one really understood the true nature of the elements of the Lord's Supper until the Protestant Reformers straightened everybody out in the 16th century.
---ger.toshav on 3/27/10


The Roman Catholic Church are not only one who believe that the bread and wine, during the Eucharistic ceremony, becomes the Body and Blood of Christ. As Cluny stated, such is the belief of the Pre-Reformation Apostolic Churches (those who was not part of the Roman Church).

That which we believe concerning the Sacred Mysteries, is what we have received by the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the Early God-Bearing Fathers, that during the Eucharistic ceremony in the Divine Liturgy, in which the Holy Gifts are being consecrated, through the power of the Holy Spirit, the Bread and Wine becomes, in a unexplained manner, the Body and Blood of Christ.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/27/10


I don't have a Catholic bible, but I never saw the word "eucharist" in any version of scripture I ever saw. This should be a hint to every bible reader that it is simply a tradition that Catholic elders have decided upon all by themselves ("tradition" is NOT spiritual).

Nor do I see any doctrine of pedophilia.

Spirit filled Christians should not be defending pedophilia. Christians must be taught that....

...Pedophilia is BAD and WRONG. It is a 'NO-NO', Cluny, and you can assume that God does not like it (it is against His will and is also a BAD tradition).
---more_excellent_way on 3/27/10


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Ignatius, here I have to disagree with you. It doesn't take a lot of common sense to see what it would mean if what you believed is really true, that is why I say you are wrong and so has the church been for centuries. And I am not an early church father either but a father nevertheless. In fact if I did, I would believe that a piece of bread could turn into Jesus flesh. Bread does not have that power. And that is not possible no matter who believes it is possible.
Christ turning to bread, that is not possible either, God became flesh, the Son, but He did not become a piece of bread. We only have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No bread mentioned there.
---MarkV. on 3/27/10


\\WE CANNOT cause salvation/eternal life....PERIOD. If you are going to belittle/ignore what Jesus did for us, at least have the guts to say it outright that God was remiss in performing all that needed to be performed.

So what do you suggest happens when we go to the bathroom?
---more_excellent_way on 3/26/10//

As to the 2nd question, Huh?

I have too much respect for what Jesus did to even want to belittle or ignore Him. The Eucharist cannot by itself save. If anyone partakes of the Eucharist unworthily, he eats and drinks condemnation upon itself 1 Cor 11:29

Read 1 Cor 11:23-34
---FatherBrendan on 3/27/10


...bible, apostles, Paul, first century Christians, brethren, etc.....

..........GOD trumps ALL.

...Have no regard for the rest.

Love God ONLY (Jesus IS "the trinity"). ONLY JESUS hung on the cross (not the brethren, the bible nor the apostles/Paul).

ONLY JESUS suffered pain and bled.

JESUS said...(John 14:6).
"no one comes to the Father, but by me".

Acts 4:12
"there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".
---more_excellent_way on 3/27/10


Any Greek will tell you that the word "estin" means "is." (Cluny 3/26/10)

Really? According to the Douay Version, Matthew 12:17 reads, 'If you had known what this means [Greek, 'estin']: I want mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the blameless.'

Catholic Bible Scholar, Jacques Dupont considered the culture and society in which Jesus lived and concluded that 'the most natural rendering of the verse should be: 'This means my body' or, 'This represents my body.''

Jesus was not encouraging his followers to break God's laws on cannibalism (Deut.28:53-57) or that of consuming blood (Lev.17:10).

The bread and the wine are symbolic, representing his flesh and blood.
---David8318 on 3/27/10


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Jesus did say, "Take, eat, this is My body," in Matthew 26:26, and "Drink of it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins," in Matthew 26:27-28). And Jesus did use symbolism. And the word of God is "a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart," we have in Hebrews 4:12. So, I see the Bible was written in a way so ones could interpret it according to their *intentions* and show how our hearts really are.

In the first century there were ones claiming to be the obedient church, but they used suppression against ones who did not go along with them. I understand they could have kept the really humble people from appearing in historical records.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/27/10


Fr.Brendan, okay, thanks.
---ger.toshav on 3/27/10


"The "eucharist" is simply a man made tradition."

It is a Apostolic Tradition, started by Jesus Christ (Luke 24:14-19). It is quite clear you have not study the book of Acts, 1 Cor 11:16-34, and Early Church history.

To say the Holy Eucharist is a man-made tradition is to walk away from the Apostolic traditions that Saint Paul told us to follow (2 Thes 2:15), and one must avoid those who walks disorderly and not according to the traditions which the Holy Apostles passed, and perserved by there Holy Successors (cf. 2 Thes 2:6, 2 Tim:1-2).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/26/10


Let's take a look at it, then. John 6:53 says, "Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.'"

We need each other. We *are* the Body of Jesus. We feed each other, as "members of one another" (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25).

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19) So, each of us already has the real presence of Jesus growing in us. The Holy Spirit is God's love blood (Romans 5:5), flowing through us to form into Jesus in each of us, like liquid of a mother's blood flowing to form into her baby.
---Bill_bila5659 on 3/26/10


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\\Fr.Brendan, thanks for clarifying. If you are a priest I apologise for my previous remark. Are you the famous Church of Ireland priest?
---ger.toshav on 3/26/10//

Nope, I am from Chicago, and not a drop of Irish blood in me.
---FatherBrendan on 3/27/10


\\Catholic translators use 'IS' instead of 'MEANS' in these verses to suggest the bread & wine literally became Jesus' flesh and blood. However, the Greek word 'e-stin' can mean both 'is' and 'signify' according to context.

Jesus was using the bread and wine to signify or represent his flesh and blood.
---David8318 on 3/26/10//

First, it is not only Catholic, but Orthodox and other Eastern Christians use that same "is." It was used that way in the 1st Century, and has continued in that same use from then on.

BTW, Jesus spoke Aramaic, where the "is/means" similarity doesn't exist. He said "This is my Body...this is my Blood..."
---FatherBrendan on 3/27/10


\\Catholic translators use 'IS' instead of 'MEANS' in these verses to suggest the bread & wine literally became Jesus' flesh and blood. \\

Curiously enough, so does the KJV and every other English translation.

||However, the Greek word 'e-stin' can mean both 'is' and 'signify' according to context.
\\

Any Greek will tell you that the word "estin" means "is."

The word rendered "memory" in Greek (anamnesis) does not mean a mere mental remembrance, but to make present what is being commemorated.

ALL the pre-Reformation Apostolic Churches, even those that were never in communion with Rome, believe that the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.
---Cluny on 3/27/10


Cluny, yes, I was refering to the [Anglican] Church of Ireland. I have a copy of their lovely Book of Common Prayer, which I use daily at home.
---ger.toshav on 3/26/10


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\\It is time that the Catholic institution be 'brought down' for all the falsity taught, but especially for what the pedophiles have done to the brethren of humanity\\

Did you know that of the millions of victims of pedophilia in the USA, that 60% of them were violated by a family member or close friend of the family (including live-in boyfriend)?

Teachers account for 5%.

Roman Catholic Priests, less than 2% (though I admit this is too many).

In the last Baptist Church I was associated with, the pastor was an adulterer and the minister of music had a taste for teenage boys.

Following your logic, the first institution that should be brought down is the family, because this is where MOST pedophilia takes place.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


\\Fr.Brendan, thanks for clarifying. If you are a priest I apologise for my previous remark. Are you the famous Church of Ireland priest?
---ger.toshav on 3/26/10\\

The famous (or infamous) Irish priest has been dead since 1988.

Or by "Church of Ireland," are you referring to the Anglican church therein, which is the proper meaning of "Church of Ireland"?
---Cluny on 3/26/10


It is time that the Catholic institution be 'brought down' for all the falsity taught, but especially for what the pedophiles have done to the brethren of humanity.

The Lord shook the earth at the cross, but now He will "shake" His church also (the "heaven").

Hebrews 12:26
"Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven".

The "eucharist" is simply a man made tradition.

WE CANNOT cause salvation/eternal life....PERIOD. If you are going to belittle/ignore what Jesus did for us, at least have the guts to say it outright that God was remiss in performing all that needed to be performed.

So what do you suggest happens when we go to the bathroom?
---more_excellent_way on 3/26/10


Jesus demonstrated what he meant at John 6:53, when after celebrating the Jewish Passover 33CE he instituted the 'Lords evening meal' at Matthew 26:26-28.

'Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing... he said: 'Take, eat. This means my body.' Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks [Greek, eu-kha-ri-ste'sas], he gave it to them, saying: 'Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my 'blood of the covenant'...'

Catholic translators use 'IS' instead of 'MEANS' in these verses to suggest the bread & wine literally became Jesus' flesh and blood. However, the Greek word 'e-stin' can mean both 'is' and 'signify' according to context.

Jesus was using the bread and wine to signify or represent his flesh and blood.
---David8318 on 3/26/10


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Fr.Brendan, thanks for clarifying. If you are a priest I apologise for my previous remark. Are you the famous Church of Ireland priest?
---ger.toshav on 3/26/10


\\FatherBrendan, I doubt that you are really a priest because your question makes no sense, even to Catholics.
---ger.toshav on 3/26/10\\

For your information, not only priests but deacons and monks are called addressed as "Father" in the Orthodox Church.

By the same token, nuns are addressed as "Mother."

What about this question makes no sense to Catholics? Please be specific.
---Cluny on 3/26/10


The 1st century Christians were Orthodox Christians, all believing the same thing. As it was 2000 years ago on the Day of Pentecost, so it is today that during the Divine Liturgy, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. This is one thing that has been taught by the Apostles, and believed by the faithful throughout history, even if they were separated from Rome by distance, time and lack of communication. For instance, the St. Thomas Christians in India believe it too!
---FatherBrendan on 3/26/10


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