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Genome Testing Disproves LDS

Genome testing now proves that the Americas were not settled by Jewish people from over 2,000 years ago which is the Mormon or LDS belief system according to the Book of Mormon. Now that science has proved the Book of Mormon as a fairytale how are the Mormons keeping their fellow cult members in check?

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The Book of Mormon with it's lies on history that have been proven time and again does not add to the Bible. It leads people to believe that some will follow any story even it is totally fabricated.

Many events in the Bible can be verified by history. None in the book of mormon.

Much less that the pearl of great price and the supposed translation from egyption can be shown to be false by just searching for the names given by Smith as gods that never existed. As a Seventh day Adventist we are often confused with Mormons the LDS. But we place the Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith. Not anything or anyone else.
---Samuel on 4/23/10


I took it as sarcasm because based on the assumption that you have read the BOM, you know that "Joseph Smith will decide who gets into heaven" isn't in there.

I don't know where you get the idea that I reject the doctrine - I have offered both Biblical and Book of Mormon evidence that says the Apostles and Prophets will have a role in judgement.

It is apparent that you are unable to accept my answers as I write them.
---HappyLDS on 4/23/10


"I took your question in regard to Joseph Smith as sarcasm."

Why? That is the LDS belief system that Joseph Smith will be with Jesus deciding who gets into heaven. Do you deny this LDS held belief? Why does Jesus need Joseph Smith to decide who gets into heaven?

I found the Book of Mormon added nothing of Biblical value to the Bible unless the Bible is missing the theme of good people turn white and bad people turn black? What value did that theme add? Do you want me to go on with other themes that are missing? Accept your salvation based upon a burning of the bosom of "if these things be true"?
---Jimbo on 4/22/10


I thought I answered those questions. I'm not sure that the Book of Mormon contains anything specific to the salvation of mankind which isn't in the Bible. As I said, the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible and both are equally important in it's lessons and witness of Jesus Christ.

I took your question in regard to Joseph Smith as sarcasm. The Book of Mormon teaches the same doctrine in regard to the apostles having an assignment in judgement. (I Nephi 12:9,10) I've already offered the Biblical scriptures. I don't know any other way to answer you. So I guess that indirectly (just as the Bible) - it teaches that Joseph Smith, as an apostle/prophet of God will have an assigned role (given by Jesus) during judgement.
---HappyLDS on 4/22/10


Happy, what message do you think that is missing from the Bible that is contained only in the Book of Mormon that affects anyones salvation? Joseph Smith on the seat with Jesus deciding who gets into heaven?

You never answered the two questions other than saying the Book of Mormon is a companion of the Bible.
---Jimbo on 4/22/10




Happy, what message do you think that is missing from the Bible that is contained only in the Book of Mormon that affects anyones salvation? Joseph Smith on the seat with Jesus deciding who gets into heaven?
---Jimbo on 4/21/10

Joseph Smith's name is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon - but you know that already don't you? It may benefit you to read the scriptures I offered in regard to this Biblical doctrine which the LDS believe to be true. The Book of Mormon is a second witness of the Savior, to his mission, his divinity, etc. A SECOND witness to the need for faith, repentance, baptism, obedience. A SECOND witness to the miracles and teachings of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible.
---HappyLDS on 4/22/10


"The eleven fragments which were found are from the Book of Breathings." HappyLDS

Yes, exactly, but J. Smith said otherwise. He 'translated' them, and asserted that they contained the story of Abraham.

Was he right or wrong?
---scott on 4/22/10


There was a man from Romania that came to this country. He was a prophet. And for a while he held meetings at airports in this country I believe he is dead now.
Once he was accosted by some Mormon elders and asked," can you see Joseph Smith?" He said, I can, he is standing at Satan's side at the entrance to hell!!
---mima on 4/22/10


Happy, what message do you think that is missing from the Bible that is contained only in the Book of Mormon that affects anyones salvation? Joseph Smith on the seat with Jesus deciding who gets into heaven?
---Jimbo on 4/21/10


LDS believe that both Jesus and Joseph Smith decide who makes it to heaven, not just Jesus. Do you deny this?
---Jimbo on 4/20/10

There's a little more to this statement. There is Biblical evidence to support that the apostles will help judge Israel: Luke 22:28-30 // Matthew 19:28

So - since the LDS believe that there are modern apostles (including the President and Prophet) it would seem that we would believe they will have a role in judgement that will be assigned to them by Jesus Christ. We DO NOT place Joseph Smith or any other person above Jesus Christ (or even with him). Jesus is our Savior - without whom we could not enter the Kingdom of God.
---HappyLDS on 4/21/10




Scott - the eleven fragments which were found are from the Book of Breathings. I'm not sure why you would think it impossible that the fragments which exist are not from the original scroll but I think that's a plausible explanation.

I have said countless times that the message of the Book of Mormon is the most important - I don't look for ways to discredit it or Joseph Smith. It's all about faith and I have faith that it holds the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
---HappyLDS on 4/21/10


HappyLDS,
Your response about the book of Abraham would be amusing if not sad.

The fact remains- there ARE fragments available, even if there was a truckload of other scrolls that he used and that are not available.

What about THOSE fragments that do exist?

Scholars have examined them (LDS and otherwise) and they are not what Smith claimed. They are false, he was wrong. They do not speak of the story of Abraham, as he claimed, but they contain information about the (Pagan) Egyptian afterlife.

Not a great testimony for Smith's ability to translate the Egyptian (Reformed) language, a language that is also, supposedly, the basis for the Book of Mormon.
---scott on 4/21/10


Yes the LDS were persecuted. But Smith reminded those who were persecuting them that they were not Pacifists like some church groups. They not only shot back they went and destroyed farms of those who were working to kill them. It was war on a small scale. Killing and being killed on both sides.

My problem with the LDS is that they do not follow the Bible. The people who fought and killed then on both side are long since dead. What matters today is what is the final rule and authority the Bible or Smith and all the LDS prophets since? Just because a person claims to be a prophet does not make them one.
---Samuel on 4/21/10


I just interacted with the head LDS Museum curator and he was very friendly and informative. He spent a good 15 minutes walking me through some of the displays and explaining them to me.

In another museum, I spoke with the great granddaughter of Brigham Young. She showed me the room her great grandmother had in the mansion and how she would get favours over the other wives with Young. Young put his wives to work - good money maker for him with the benefits of a having 55 wives. Have you visited this mansion?

LDS believe that both Jesus and Joseph Smith decide who makes it to heaven, not just Jesus. Do you deny this?
---Jimbo on 4/20/10


Jimbo - Was the name of the LDS Museum curator Bill McKeever? I know you said you don't take anything from good ole Bill BUT as far as I know, he is the only guy to tell the gun battle story!?! Mormonism 101, Questions to Ask Your Mormon Friends...pick your poison...just don't expect the truth!
Seriously - the guy looked at you and said "psst - hey buddy, I have a secret to tell you?" Come on!?! I went through the museum - wearing my CTR ring, modestly dressed and they STILL didn't recognize me as Mormon and share the "truth" with me. What a shame!
---HappyLDS on 4/20/10


Actually the LDS museum head caretaker in Salt Lake told me the story of how Joseph Smith died in a gun fight. He thought I was LDS and told the truth, whereas the non-LDS got the story line you believe.

LDS believe that both Jesus and Joseph Smith decide who makes it to heaven, not just Jesus. You need to better check into your own belief system. My information comes directly from LDS Priests and Elders not other sources. Remember, I made hundreds of LDS friends and am informed directly from LDS members not others sources.
---Jimbo on 4/20/10


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"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16

Two words- Mountain Meadows.
---scott on 4/19/10

I am in no way defending the Mountain Meadows Massacre - it was horrific. I believe that the driving force behind this awful event was FEAR. Mormons were persecuted, some, including Joseph Smith were tarred and feathered,jailed, run out of more than one town, women raped, children murdered...this is how they ended up in Utah. Hahns Mill Massacre, Extermination Order by Governor Lillan Boggs...LOOK IT UP.

cont.
---HappyLDS on 4/20/10


cont. for Scott

To say that the Mountain Meadows massacre is the basis on which you judge the "fruits" of Mormonism is really stretching it isn't it? Seems a little disingenuous.

"Some (if not all) of the papyrus that Smith used for his Book of Abraham exists today and can be studied." - this statement is wrong. Of the three or four scrolls Joseph Smith once possessed - only 11 FRAGMENTS have been found.
---HappyLDS on 4/20/10


As you know Happy, Joseph Smith was a criminal that died in a gun fight as he attempted to escape jail for breaking the law. I would not bet my salvation on Joseph Smith, but instead on Jesus Christ.
---Jimbo on 4/19/10

I'm sorry Jimbo - just where did I say that I base by salvation on Joseph Smith? As far as Joseph Smith being killed in a gun fight in an attempt to escape jail - you really should get the facts. First, Joseph Smith was arrested repeatedly and rarely, if ever convicted of anything. He and his brother were killed inside of an upstairs room where they were trying to keep a mob of angry men out. By the way - how many prisoners in jail have guns? There are non mormon accounts of this event.
---HappyLDS on 4/20/10


Larry -

Not that facts seem to count for you - but it was Paul who taught about the three degrees of glory in the ressurection (I Cor 15:40-42.)

It does crack me up how, as a Christian you believe some pretty unbelieveable stuff - Moses parted the sea, Noah saved mankind by building a boat, Jesus was born of a virgin and raised the dead...all kinds of miracles! But the idea that Jesus Christ appeared to a 14 year old boy as an answer to a prayer is just too far over the top! LOL Or the idea that there will be a New Jerusalem...the list goes on and on. I won't answer the Jesus/ Lucifer spirit brother question again - you obviously are unable to think outside the box.
---HappyLDS on 4/20/10


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"I believe that he has restored the gospel to the earth through Joseph Smith..." HappyLDS 4/18/10

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16

Two words- Mountain Meadows.
---scott on 4/19/10


Jimbo, the LDS has bigger problems than North America settlement issues.

For one, they believe there are two items of authority...the Bible and the book of Mormom, so they've already broken the first commandment and the house of cards collapses from there.
There is other nonsense about Jesus establishing a three level terrestrial, celestial and testial that follows the new Jerusalem in Jackson County Missouri.
They finesse the issue of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers with an "out of context" explanation.
God bless.
---larry on 4/19/10


HappyLDS,

Let me clarify.

The 'fragments' that have been found, and that can be examined today, were (according to Smith's diary) painstakingly translated by him. Smith claimed that these Egyptian hieroglyphs told the story of Abraham.

When his 'translation' was examined by those who knew the language, they summarily dismissed it as false. Some (if not all) of the papyrus that Smith used for his Book of Abraham exists today and can be studied.

The only thing written in 'Reformed Egyptian' that Smith translated from (and that can be examined today) was false. Why would the BOM be any more reliable? But it can't be tested because it doesn't exist.

It too was translated from 'Reformed Egyptian'.
---scott on 4/19/10


As you know Happy, Joseph Smith was a criminal that died in a gun fight as he attempted to escape jail for breaking the law. I would not bet my salvation on Joseph Smith, but instead on Jesus Christ.

Since you refuse to compare the Book of Mormon, read the complete Bible or state which books are missing from the Bible, you are the one that is being mislead by what your leaders have told you. Isn't your eternal salvation worth a little effort? Don't be lazy - know for yourself the facts.
---Jimbo on 4/19/10


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Jimbo,

Again - I have no need to compare copies of the BOM. I know it is exactly what it claims to be - it testifies of Christ. You believe the people were all bigots and if that's all you get from it, I'm truly sorry. As for the books not included in the Bible, you seem to continue to miss the point!?! My faith is in Jesus Christ and in his Gospel. I believe that he has restored the gospel to the earth through Joseph Smith....but make no mistake - it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
---HappyLDS on 4/18/10


Happy, you just stated again the Bible is perfect, you just don't think peoples understanding is perfect. You didn't name one book of the Bible that is missing. Nor do you choose to compare the original Book of Mormon to a modern copy. If your faith in Joseph Smith is false, you will live an eternity of seperation from God. Can you risk your own soul on the burning of the bosom "experience"?
---Jimbo on 4/18/10


Jimbo,

I truly appreciate your concern but I have faith that I have the truth. My point about the missing books wasn't so much about the missing books as it is about the fact that these men claimed no authority from God...they weren't even unanimous for Heaven's sake! I do believe that there can only be one true gospel - not a bit here and a bit there. Too many doctrines are different among most Christian churches - they can't all be true. I pray that one day you will soften your heart and read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and not with one searching to find any error possible. If you do that, the Spirit will bear witness to you - I'm certain. Take care.
---HappyLDS on 4/18/10


Happy since you agree the Bible hasn't changed, therefore you must agree it is perfect. by Jimbo

No Jimbo, I don't agree it's perfect. I have said this repeatedly - while the original text may not change - numerous translations and interpretations have been misunderstood and the result is a change in some of the doctrines and in some cases a complete loss of doctrine. For example, many Christian churches no longer believe that baptism by immersion is necessary - some don't even believe baptism is necessary at all...though Jesus Christ Himself says it is. They interpret it differently. I believe that God continues to communicate with prophets - just as He always has.
---HappyLDS on 4/18/10


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Happy, I encourage you in the precious Name of Jesus Christ to read the full Bible, read the missing Bible books and determine on your own if the missing books should be Canon, compare an original Book of Mormon to a modern copy and determine on your own if there are signficant changes. DON'T take the words of others on these topics as your eternal salvation is on the line.

It is obvious that you want to please God and you are doing the best with what you have been taught. However, at this point God holds you responsible for the above. I will keep you in prayer and please if you have any more questions let's continue to blog.
---Jimbo on 4/18/10


Happy since you agree the Bible hasn't changed, therefore you must agree it is perfect. Which books are left out of the Bible that you think should be in the Bible? Without listing the books that are missing that you think should be Canon, again you are speaking out of ignorance.

I have read many of the "so called" missing books and I wouldn't have made them Canon either as they are false gospels, false history usually written by writers that used the names of Biblical characters versus their names, etc.
---Jimbo on 4/18/10


Since you have not read an original Book of Mormon and compared, you are in no position to make the comment that you think the original text hasn't changed in the meaning. You are speaking out of ignorance.

Bottomline, I have read the topics we are discussing myself. You have not. You are parroting what you have been taught to belief versus knowing the facts.
---Jimbo on 4/18/10


Jimbo -
I've read much of the Bible and have already explained that while there may be no change in the text, there have been many different translations and I think the result is that doctrines have been confused and some even left out. You don't acknowledge the fact that the Bible was compiled by a group of men (the Nicean Council). These men decided what went in according to their theological perspective. These men are also those who came up with the Trinatarian view. I have never bought into the Trinitarian viewpoint, not even in my pre LDS life. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are two books with the same message of Jesus Christ. As I've said before, there is no error in it large enough to overshadow it's message.
---HappyLDS on 4/17/10


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Happy, yes the 50% number may be too high, that's just my recall from reading the Book of Mormon. All of the wars in the America's and parts dealing with sin with the outcome of the skin color changing.

Since you have not read the entire Bible, I would highly recommend reading the whole Bible. It is a very different type of Book and as I believe you have agreed is a Book that has never changed unlike the Book of Mormon which does change. I also would highly recommend getting an original copy of the Book of Mormon. There are copies on the temple grounds. Compare it to a modern copy and draw your own conclusions.

By the way, I love the LDS folks which is why I did a few missionary trips to the Salt Lake temple to witness to them.
---Jimbo on 4/17/10


Yes, Jimbo I have read the Book of Mormon in it's entirety. I cannot make the same claim about the Bible - reason being that I never questioned the Bible as inspired of God. I had to read the Book of Mormon to know if it was true. I have listened to it on CD as well - I just wasn't offended by it's content.
I acknowledged there are places that might be construde as "racist." I'm saying I do not believe it is 50%. Are you saying that the Bible doesn't have racism (by your definition) in it?
As for the "temple girls" - I assume you mean the Sister Missionaries. Since they are missionaries I don't know why they were forbidden to talk but I'll have to take your word for it.
---HappyLDS on 4/17/10


I must assume that you have not read the complete Book of Mormon or you would know that the major theme and largest portion of the Book is good people turn white and bad people turn black. Are you stating that isn't in the Book? Why are you denying this fact? Could it be because it is an unbiblical concept and outright repugnant?

Many of the temple girls were forbid to talk while others were instructed to talk to me. It's girls not guys at the temples at least back when I went. Many of the girls since they were forbidden to speak of course wanted all the more to know about God and interacted.

Happy, have you read the complete Book of Mormon and the Bible IE 100%? If not, you are in no position to question one word I am stating.
---Jimbo on 4/17/10


Jimbo,

I'm sorry but I seriously question your statements. I have read the Book of Mormon and know that your claim that 50% of it is racist is truly erroneous. Based on that comment alone, I have serious doubts as to your truthfulness in regard to reading it. You also stated that you were on Temple grounds showing LDS members the problems with the BOM...then you said you didn't. If you did venture onto Temple grounds I can say with certainty that it is unlikely that you caused a temple going Mormon to "rethink" the Book of Mormon. Sorry, but your claims are sounding increasingly dishonest. The statements you make (without any evidence) sound like they have come straight out of anti mormon material...I've read some of that too.
---HappyLDS on 4/17/10


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The only LDS material I have read is the Book of Mormon and have spoken with hundreds of LDS members about how the Book of Mormon is an extremely racist book. South Baptists were not following the Bible to become racist, however good LDS members that followed the Book of Mormon were racist all the way until 1978.

Remember, the Book of Mormon is 50% about if you are good you turn white and if you are bad you turn black. I have read the whole Book of Mormon and studied with LDS members. If you have truly read the Book of Mormon, you know I am stating a fact. However, I know most LDS members have not read the whole Book of Mormon nor the Bible.
---Jimbo on 4/17/10


Jimbo,
I'm guessing you're reading from McKeever and Johnson? It's interesting how many out of context quotes they use to make their point. Are there statements in the Book of Mormon that could indicate racism - perhaps. But they could also be symbolic. It's true that people who want to charge that the LDS are racist would certainly never see it as such. I suppose that racism wasn't prevalent during the 1800's in any protestant faiths? Southern Baptists weren't filled with Klan members? Bruce R. McConkie made the best statement regarding this subject - you can find it on the Black LDS website. Yes, there are many black members of our church - in spite of the rampant racism charges made by the those ignorant to the truth. Hum...
---HappyLDS on 4/17/10


Scott,

I'm sorry, my answer to you wasn't posted the first time.

Joseph Smith had purchased 3 or 4 long scrolls. There were only 11 FRAGMENTS found that were from the Book of the Dead. The church has never tried to hide that - they published the finding in a church magazine. No reason to hide it because this was likely not what became the Book of Abraham. Does this shake my testimony of the Book of Mormon? Absolutely not. Again, any error in the Book of Mormon certainly doesn't take away it's message.
---HappyLDS on 4/17/10


Let's see the lessons of the Book of Mormon. When someone was bad their skin turned black and when somebody was good their skin turned white. The white people were also good and the black people always bad. It wasn't until 1978 that the Mormon Church allow blacks to become elders and priests because blacks were considered sinful because the color of their sin. Hum?
---Jimbo on 4/16/10


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Yes, Book of Mormon - Thanks for pointing out the typo.

Yes, sounds like you agree the Bible hasn't changed. However, we both agree the Book of Mormon has changed regardless if we believe the changes are minor or major.

I have never protested on the temple grounds as some others have which I agree would be very disrespectful. I was very well received and appreciated by the Temple headquarters due to the professionalism while there. Made dozens of new friends and got a lot of LDS folks rethinking about the LDS religion.

Which books of the Bible were left out that you believe should be studied and why? Of course false books were left out.
---Jimbo on 4/16/10


Jimbo apparently my point isn't being clarified. First, the languages of the Old and New Testaments are Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. I'm not saying that the original text has been changed - I'm saying that the many translations are subject to the interpretation and theological perspective of the translator. I would also add that the books in the Bible and their order were decided upon by a group of men - many were left out. This is a historical fact.

I have no need to search out textual changes in the Book of Mormon - it's interesting how many search for errors and ignore the message of the book. I'm not one of them.
---HappyLDS on 4/16/10


"On the LDS temple grounds, I used their own Book of Mormons to show them the major changes from the original Book to the newest." by Jimbo

I find it sad that you would go to a place so sacred to so many and think it is okay to disparage their beliefs there. It's like the protestors who go to our General Conference every six months...it is never okay to intrude on the religous services of anyone, it shows a real lack of class in my opinion. I just had to say it. One more thing - it's the Book of Mormon.
---HappyLDS on 4/16/10


happylds,
Sorry, Smith not Smith's.
---scott on 4/16/10


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happylds,

When it was discovered by scholars that the papyrus J. Smith's used to translate the Book of Abraham (written in 'reformed Egyptian') was actually Egyptian funerary documents and unrelated to Abraham, don't you think it casts suspicion over the book of Mormon since It too was 'translated' from 'reformed egyptian'.

The only difference is, unlike the book of Abraham, the BOM 'plates' are unavailable for examination by any objective person, scholar or otherwise.
---scott on 4/16/10


Yes, most of the changes in the Book of Mormon were grammatical, but MANY are not. On the LDS temple grounds, I used their own Book of Mormons to show them the major changes from the original Book to the newest.
There are thousands of changes, therefore if you are truly interested you will have to obtain an original copy and compare which I can't do for you in this format.

The KJV and NIV are not the Dead Sea Scolls. The Dead Sea Scolls are the original text, not the other way around. The original text is written in Hebrew and there are no changes from the Hebrew today.

Bottomline, the Bible hasn't changed, but the Book of Mormons is an ever changing Book which makes is extremely unreliable.
---Jimbo on 4/16/10


You're right Jimbo - Joseph Smith translated and Oliver Cowdery acted as scribe (usually). I have no idea what Oliver Cowderys education was. That doesn't change the fact that most of the changes were grammatical. You haven't offered any example of word meaning changes so I can't answer to those charges. It's unfair to keep saying they exist without offering an example. It's possible that they do exist but there may also be a plausible explanation.

I respectfully disagree that the Dead Sea Scrolls put to rest any issues. I spent an evening with a friend comparing KJV to NIV of the Bible. While most read essentially the same - there were also some very different interpretations.
---HappyLDS on 4/15/10


Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon - he just spoke what the seer told him to speak and then a writer wrote. I guess the seer had only a High School education also? Get an original Book of Mormon as well as other issues along the way and there are major changes in the meaning of the text not just updating words. If you have truly compared, you will know exactly what I am talking about.

I think the Dead Sea Scolls put to rest the issue that the Bible has not changed.
---Jimbo on 4/15/10


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Yes, Jimbo - this Mormon has read the Book of Mormon. I am also aware of the changes made to it, though most have been primarily grammatical. Joseph Smith had a minimal education so I am not surprised. The few textual changes are pretty benign as well. I'm intrigued by those who criticize the "changes" in the Book of Mormon and yet are willing to completely ignore the changes made to the Biblical text - through interpretation or translation error. The Bible has been translated and re-translated but so many believe nothing has been lost or changed through the years. I believe the Bible is inspired of God - I am also a realist. I guess that's why I find it vry easy to believe that prophets are necessary and still exist today.
---HappyLDS on 4/15/10


Hi HappyLDS - glad to see you here. I have read the whole Book of Mormon and witnessed to hundreds of LDS members during a few missionary trips. What I found out is that most LDS have never read either the Book of Mormon or the Bible, just pieces of both. Not really surprising since most Christians have not read the whole Bible either. I have also read different published years of the Book of Mormon and noticed that they changed the meaning of words over time. Most LDS don't know that the Book of Mormon is changing all the time. And no, I am not talking about updating the use of words, but actually changing the meaning.
---Jimbo on 4/15/10


Science has not proven the Book of Mormon to be a fairytale. "Fairytale" is a dead giveaway someone hasn't read it. If mankind has descended from Noah since the flood do all men have the same Y chromosome? If the same standard of "proof" is applied - they should shouldn't they? I'm not particularly astute on genetics but it would seem reasonable to expect such a thing.
What people can't seem to understand is that Mormons believe the Book of Mormon to be true because we've READ it! We have studied it, cross referenced it with the Bible and prayed about it. It tells the stories of inhabitants of the American continent and the presence of Christ in their lives.
---HappyLDS on 4/15/10


candice:

Y chromosome DNA is passed from father to son, and mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to children. These do not change from one generation to another except for copying errors. Using DNA comparisons, it's possible to track a person's matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry back, and by comparing two people's, determine that they had common maternal ancestor, or that two men had the same paternal ancestor. DNA from people indigenous to the Americas reveals a much closer relationship to people from Asia than anywhere else. While one can't use this to determine with certainty the ancestor of any specific people, it does indicate that MOST people from here are descended from people who came from Asia long ago.
---StrongAxe on 4/3/10


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Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
--looks like just forty days, not 1800+ years.
---MIchael on 4/3/10


the scientist can't say every "native american" that arrived in Central America or surrounding areas came from Asia because they do not know. I do know that a family in the book of Mormon(true tribes) came from Jerusalem to Central America. God only has control over this. BTW it is not a cult because it is not fitting into your church "critieria" they donot close themselves off ,unlike other branches they do not associate with( mainly FLDS-now they could be one)God uses everyone everywhere for his word & doesn't limit it just to Israel or Jerusalem. We can't limit Jesus on who he visited between his ressurection & returning to the father since it was 3 days or more.
---candice on 4/2/10


"Why do you allow unloving and unnecessary--to say nothing about untrue--comments about Roman Catholics?" (Cluny)

You have a point there. I have see many unloving remarks made by some here towards Roman Catholics. Why has the Mod not rebuke those Anti-Catholic bigots here? There comments are also unnecessary and cold-hearted. What about the comments made by many here against those who do not agree with them (calling them ignorant, spiritual blinded, unsaved, etc)? Eloy and others would have been banned in other sites.

Perhaps the Mod should make new rules for the site, and delete all post having offensive remarks.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/2/10


"Why do you allow unloving and unnecessary--to say nothing about untrue--comments about Roman Catholics?" (Cluny)

You have a point there. I have see many unloving remarks made by some here towards Roman Catholics. Why has the Mod not rebuke those Anti-Catholic bigots here? There comments are also unnecessary and cold-hearted. What about the comments made by many here against those who do not agree with them (calling them ignorant, spiritual blinded, unsaved, etc)? Eloy and others would have been banned in other sites.

Perhaps the Mod should make new rules for the site, and delete all post having offensive remarks.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/2/10


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I strongly support Cluny's right not to be held to a separate standard here. His criticisms are relatively subdued compared to the remarks of many others on these blogs.
---ger.toshav on 4/2/10


I strongly support Cluny's right not to be held to a separate standard here. His criticisms are relatively subdued compared to the remarks of many others on these blogs.
---ger.toshav on 4/2/10


\\Cluny your use of pop-evangelicals and other negative comments toward non-Orthodox Christians is unwanted and unnecessary. The pop-evangelicals comments is only one of dozens of unloving jabs that you have made that are not Christlike\\

Why do you allow unloving and unnecessary--to say nothing about untrue--comments about Roman Catholics?

I have explained how I use the term "pop-evangelical." It is NOT used against all non-Orthodox Christians.

Christ Himself did not hesitate to call false doctrine false.

While I do not claim to be on His spiritual level, you cannot condemn my comments on that ground.
---Cluny on 4/2/10


The problem with any group with erroneous beliefs (whether they are heretics, pop-evangelicals, animists, or just immature believers) is that they are typically mixed in with (and often hard to distinguish from) people with sound doctrine, true evangelicals, mature believers, etc. Jesus said there would always be wheat and chaff, and that they would be separated in the end (but did NOT say to separate them now, because it's very hard to do). It is important to understand the errors and deficiencies of unsound doctrines, without necessarily labelling anyone with pejorative labels.

(For example, this is why I am usually very careful to say things like "If you believe xyz you are probably wrong", not "You are wrong").
---StrongAxe on 4/2/10


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Cluny your use of pop-evangelicals and other negative comments toward non-Orthodox Christians is unwanted and unnecessary. The pop-evangelicals comments is only one of dozens of unloving jabs that you have made that are not Christlike. As mentioned earlier, I have enjoyed having you on the blogs. You are a VERY detailed and intelligent person which is an asset for the Body of Christ. All that the bloggers request is that you remember 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 before replying to blogs.
---Moderator on 4/2/10


\\Anything you would like to say to us "pop-evangelicals"? \\

I did not say that all mega-church goers are pop-evangelicals.

However, is your church in a rich suburb?

Please look up the expression. I'm not the only one to use it.
---Cluny on 4/2/10


\\cluny--You make it clear you look down on "western" churches.\\

Wrong.

\\ "Pop-Evangelism" is a cliche and a pejorative.\\
You insult many genuine believers when you paint with such a large brush.\\

I'm not using the term against genuine believers of whatever stripe. I'm using it against shallow people with only a puerile understanding of the Gospel who go in for spiritual fads such as "slain in the spirit" or "prophetic dancing."
---Cluny on 4/1/10


Pop-evangelicalism is the the teaching of mega-churches in rich suburbs
---Cluny on 4/1/10

I attend one of these mega-churches in a rich suburb. We have 8000 members, 5-6000 on any given Sunday.

Anything you would like to say to us "pop-evangelicals"?

What I would say to you is, come and learn to be humble.

Ps 25:9 "The humble He leads in justice, and the humble He teaches His way"
---Mark_Eaton on 4/1/10


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Simon, my point was that people don't join or stay in faith communities because of scientific theories or discoveries. The truth or falsity of scientific pronouncements is a separate issue.
---ger.toshav on 4/1/10


'keeping their fellow members in check'=the same way christianity does.Scientific influence is rejected in favor of tradition unless science supports a traditional belief.
---earl on 4/1/10


Thanks for your response StrongAxe.

I think there are times when we rightly group people together, but we also have to be wary (not saying anyone in particular is guilty of it any more than anyone else!) of wrongful pigeon-holing through broad and sweeping statements. Either way, we are to try to be respectful and not judgemental.

What we need to remember (getting back to the question) is that whatever people believe, if their spiritual eyes are not opened to the truth, it will not matter what science does or doesn't claim, especially if they do not understand it at all. One might argue that it is the failing of relying on a book other than the Bible (alone) to find life's answers that is the problem.
---simon7348 on 4/1/10


cluny--You make it clear you look down on "western" churches. "Pop-Evangelism" is a cliche and a pejorative. You insult many genuine believers when you paint with such a large brush. I know what you mean by the word, but it's a stereotype. Do you really believe all members of mega churches in affluent suburbs are so shallow? Does a bumper-sticker signify that one doesn't study scripture?

It doesn't matter how many people use the term. It comes across as pretty sanctimonious.
---Donna66 on 4/1/10


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"pop-evangalicalism" is a trendy but superficial counterfeit to authentic evangelical Christianity. It is often accompanied by Christian cliches like Jesus Fish and WWJD bumper stickers - not bad in themselves, but people should know we are Christians by how we act, not what we display.

There are many whose faith is mainly parroting what they hear from popular preachers (without "searching the scriptures daily to see if these things are so"), going to church 3 times a week, voting for "right" candidates, avoiding "wrong" movies, etc. But their beliefs have little depth. If persecuted for their faith, many such people would fall away because it's now inconvenient, and they never counted the cost.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/10


\\. IE your remark "pop-evangelists" is frequently used to belittle any person that doesn't hold your Orthodox belief system.\\

Wrong.

I use pop-evangelical to refer to a debased form of easy-believeism puerile Christianity that is light years away from the classic evangelicalism of the Wesleys, Finney, or even Billy Graham.

Pop-evangelicalism is the the teaching of mega-churches in rich suburbs and televangelism. Bumper-sticker theology is one manifestation of it.

And I'm not the only one who has used this term. Do a web-search of it.
---Cluny on 4/1/10


Cluny:

It isn't just Mormons (with genetics) or modern evangelicals (with evolution or cosmology). Don't forget the Vatican's attitude towards Galileo.
---StrongAxe on 4/1/10


Mormons won't leave the Mormon Church over genome testing any more than Fundamentalists would leave their churches because the earth is over six thousand years old...---ger.toshav on 3/31/10
Show me irrefutable proof that the earth is millions of years old (I'll take anything in the 6-12,000 year range as reasonable because I'm not interested in the exact "to the second" age of the earth, I dispute millions of years being Biblically compatible.

By saying the science is wrong.The same thing happens when science challenges convictions of pop-evangelicals, too.
---Cluny on 4/1/10

"pop-evangelicals"? Millions of years is based on theories and assumptions
---simon7348 on 4/1/10


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Cluny, I want to let you know that I enjoy having your point of view in the blogs. However, you rarely miss an opportunity to make acerbic remarks toward others. IE your remark "pop-evangelists" is frequently used to belittle any person that doesn't hold your Orthodox belief system. Please consider using proper respect for others and your points will be better respected. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
---Moderator on 4/1/10


Mormons won't leave the Mormon Church over genome testing any more than Fundamentalists would leave their churches because the earth is over six thousand years old. People are not in their faith communities because of scientific explanations about anything. They are because they like being there.
---ger.toshav on 3/31/10


By saying the science is wrong.

The same thing happens when science challenges convictions of pop-evangelicals, too.
---Cluny on 4/1/10


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