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Pope Says Molestation Petty

Did anyone hear on the news that the Pope called the sexual molestation cases PETTY GOSSIP? Don't you think he owes these men a formal apology and tell them the abusers will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law INSTEAD OF CALLING IT PETTY GOSSIP? Which makes me very angry. Doesn't it you?

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Ignatius, Mark V does not believe that having idols of a dog or cat or anything is wrong. The Second Commandment does not say that at all. Did you not read the Second Commandment? I was going by what the Second Commandment was talking about. I put it down for you, did it talk about dogs cats, the presidents a cloth? "NO" it talked about Carve images of any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, nor that is in the water under the earth" Hello does that mean presidents, flags, dogs or cats, "NO"
Where is your problem Ignatius? Its in your idols of exactly what the Second Commandment is talking about.
---MarkV. on 4/13/10


"The problem with "Holy Tradition" is that it is not consistent with the Bible, and adds to it." (Rod4him)

In Eastern Christianity, the Bible is included in "Holy Tradition" (singular). Usually, a Eastern Christian will not say "Holy Tradition + Holy Scriptures" but simply "Holy Tradition", and by far, Holy Scriptures is a part (a beautiful, brilliant, central part) of Holy Tradition.

Holy Scriptures came from Holy Tradition. It is by Holy Tradition that you 27 books in your New Testament, no less and no more. Without Holy Tradition, you wouldn't have a Bible to go Sola with.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/14/10


StrongAxe, I thought I acknowledged that the Bible is based on tradition,

my quote //You have a great point that the Bible, as we have it, is based on some kind of tradition, and protestants have many other of their own traditions, plural.//

I also said, //Granted, somewhere, we have to draw a line of what is authority and what isn't.//

We all draw a line somewhere to what we consider authority. Which traditions have authority in protestant churches.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't understand your responses in regard to mine.
---Rod4Him on 4/14/10


Mark V

"Who really cares how many sacraments you need to do to get saved, the information said seven, you say five, of course you know more then what is on the website, so I believe you, it is still salvation by works just as the RCC. "

Which website? Give me exact location where you got your info, that said Eastern Orthodox Christians must do Seven Holy Sacraments to get saved in there lifetime. Actually, Orthodoxy teach that simply participating in the Sacramental Life of the Church DOES NOT guarantee entrance into Heaven.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/14/10


MarkV, I will agree with Ignatius - the point is, something is an idol IF it is worshipped - you/I can be an idol if we care too much about ourselves, childen can be, our spouse can be, do lets not complain too much about catholic icons - if handled properly, they just remind the worshipper of a time in the life of Jesus or a saint, to help then worship God. Yers, there are danges, but lets not overly condem a practice
---peter3594 on 4/14/10




StrongAxe-

Based upon Mark V ideology, they are, as the ones I been too had images of the cross, a white dove, a open Bible with John 3:16 on the right, etc somewhere on the altar or behind it (images can also be found in there own tracts) (I also saw images of Jesus Christ, cartoon version, in some churches). Most Americans pledge there allegiance to a piece of cloth (the Flag) and have statues in honor of dead Presidents (like the Lincoln Memorial and Mount Rushmore). Mark V believe any one who have a image of anything (could be a picture of a dog) is a Idolater, and dismiss the fact that Exodus 20 is only concern with having a Image and worshiping it, thus making it a Idol.

I am just following his ideology.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


Mark V,

"If your Eastern Church does not teach the worship, why do you defend it? If you knew that molesting children by the priest and the leaders move them to other places why didn't you speak up? "

Who is defending Idol Worship? You said I might not be able to read, but then again, I have told you time after time that I DO NOT worship Idols, nor to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and we DO NOT have Idols in our Churches.

Let me say it again, "I have told you time after time that I DO NOT worship Idols, nor to the Eastern Orthodox Church, and we DO NOT have Idols in our Churches.".

If I knew about it, I would have spoken up. Did you knew about it Mark V?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


Ignatius, I wonder if you know how to read. Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say the Eastern Church taught idol worship. I said "you, believe it is ok" and give reason why it is ok. Let me write it again,

"I didn't say the Eastern Church taught idol worship. I said "you, believe it is ok" and give reason why it is ok."
You are not the institution.

Who really cares how many sacraments you need to do to get saved, the information said seven, you say five, of course you know more then what is on the website, so I believe you, it is still salvation by works just as the RCC.
---MarkV. on 4/13/10


Ignatius, I think MarkV's problem is that he believes God's commandment about graven images. Any image of a human in connection with worship or beatification, including Mary, is idolatry. The defense of icons in the house of worship is finessing a very great sin and tradition is no excuse.

I have not read a "quote" from the Pope flippantly referring to sexual molestation as petty gossip, but there seems to be a great effort to defend the institution of the RCC as if it holds any virtue.
No church or denomination holds any virtue outside of Holy living as a witness to the lost world. The RCC has lost all credibility with the lost as it can't get out of its own way from headlines about molestation.
---larry on 4/13/10


The Second Commandment has disappeared. It is clear why. From the beginning God saw that idols and idol worship was going to be downfall of the church. Ignatius says I do not grasp the Second Commandment. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness"
Is this hard to grasp?
"Of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath"
Those (includes God, Jesus, Angels, Saints who have died) not hard to grasp.
"or that is in the water under the earth" and here is something else,
"you shall not bow down to them nor serve them"
that means not kneeling, bowing down, kissing them, or serving them. Is that hard to grasp?
---MarkV. on 4/13/10




\\However, where in your "Holy Tradition" did your previous statements come from? Where can I look them up?
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10
\\

You can start with THE ORTHODOX CHURCH by Timothy Ware (now Metropolitan Kallistos), the standard English introduction on the subject.

So far as I know, this book is NOT on line, but is available at standard bookstores.

I'll give you a hint: Holy Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the faithful Orthodox.
---Cluny on 4/13/10


"the commandment is just about MAKING it, it ends with 'and worship it'! (peter 3594)

Precisely. This is the fact that Mark V can not grasp. Having images does not equal Idolatry. Mark V concluded that we worship Idols simply because he read somewhere that we have Icons, which by the way, had it's origin in Old Testament Judaism (God ordained mind you). The key in understanding Exodus 20 is to study the Greek Version of the OT (LXX) and the Hebrew words used, which makes it clear that God was talking about Idols, and not simply having a Image. One can turn a image into a Idol, but simply having a Image does not equal Idolatry.

If this is the case, then Protestants, including Mark V, are Idolaters.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


Ignatius:

How are Baptist, Pentecostals, and other Protesants, and most Americans Idolaters?


Rod4Him:

The main fallacy with "Sola Scriptura" is the question: just what is "Scriptura"? How do we know WHICH books are in the Bible? The answer to that question is tradition - and it's extra-biblical tradition, since the scriptures themselves do not include a table of contents anywhere. (While many books do refer to others, there is no comprehensive list, and some are never referred to, and there are even some references to apocryphal works, and sometimes even pagan works).

If you throw out all tradition as being suspect, you must throw out the Bible as being suspect as well.
---StrongAxe on 4/13/10


"is still Salvation achieved by performing 7 Sacrements during one's lifetime" (Mark V)

Keep on bearing false witness against us. As long as I am here, I will keep exposing your lies.

There are only five Holy Mysteries that layman participant in his lifetime: Holy Baptism (only done once), Christmation (again, only once), Eucharist (encourged to participant regularly), Repentace (regularly) and Unction (only when needed). The other two (Holy Orders/Marriage) are optional.

And who said we do not have assurance of Salvation? Our assurance is not based on a past moment of belief, but based on our daily responding in God's Will, achieve by His Grace.

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


Cluny, I stand corrected, "Holy Tradition," singular. thanks :)

You have a great point that the Bible, as we have it, is based on some kind of tradition, and protestants have many other of their own traditions, plural.

Granted, somewhere, we have to draw a line of what is authority and what isn't.

The problem with "Holy Tradition" is that it is not consistent with the Bible, and adds to it.

However, where in your "Holy Tradition" did your previous statements come from? Where can I look them up?
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10


Igantius, you are not getting points because of me in heaven. I did not say the Eastern Church idol worships. I said your reasons why you believe that idol worship is ok and all the reasons you gave were a cover-up. In fact what I read about Eastern was that they don't worship the idol but they do have them in Church. I thought since you had them you worshipped them. Because you defend the worship. The information said the RCC is different because they worship idols. And since you and Cluny been defending the Idol worship I answered you. If your Eastern Church does not teach the worship, why do you defend it? If you knew that molesting children by the priest and the leaders move them to other places why didn't you speak up?
---MarkV. on 4/13/10


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Mark V "Igantius, you can cover up the idol worship all you want. It's your choice to do what you believe. But it's a cover-up."

No cover up. No Idol Worship. However, you can continue bearing false witness against us, as no canonical Eastern Orthodox Church teach Idol worship. You are just storing up treasure for me in heaven!

FYI, based on your ideology, Baptist, Pentecostals, and other Protesants, and most Americans are Idolaters.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


\\Since you don't want to use scripture, what do you use to back up your statements? Who said what you believe, and where is the information?

It appears that you are defending "The Church" with all its immorality, continuing to tell people to bow to them because of "Holy Traditions."\\

The Orthodox Church goes by Solo Traditio, since everything in the Church is tradition (singular, not plural, BTW), including the Bible. What other authority do you have for it? It didn't drop down out of heaven already written, and unlike a book for morons, it was not found in a box hidden in the woods.

Sexual immorality is NOT part of Orthodox tradition.
---Cluny on 4/13/10


MarkV and Ignatius: you are actually wasting your time!! THe question is not whether there is a cross, icon or anything else in the church, or anywhere else - that is unimportant: the commandment is just about MAKING it, it ends with 'and worship it'! That is the important part, not the icon, cross, etc being there! I do not personally find icons helpful, but I don't see a problem UNLESS the icon itself is seen as a source of power (I have seen that happen sometimes, so sometimes I am concerned)
---peter3594 on 4/13/10


Cluny, //Sola scriptura is YOUR rule and YOUR game,//

Well, I wouldn't call it a game any more than I would call your "Holy Traditions" a game. This is serious stuff.

Since you don't want to use scripture, what do you use to back up your statements? Who said what you believe, and where is the information?

It appears that you are defending "The Church" with all its immorality, continuing to tell people to bow to them because of "Holy Traditions."
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10


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Igantius, you can cover up the idol worship all you want. It's your choice to do what you believe. But it's a cover-up. You know all that so I should not have to tell you. I do not bring false witness against you but your doctrines and the removal of the Second Commandment. During this past weekend I spend my time studying all I could about your religion so that I could compare to the RCC and it is different in many areas but it is still Salvation achieved by performing 7 Sacrements during one's lifetime. These are channels in which they receive God's Grace. They reject salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. And they do not believe in eternal salvation, and does not teach the believer can have assurance of heaven during his lifetime.
---MarkV. on 4/13/10


Mark V, #2 If we are idolaters because we have Icons of events or people (such as the Icon of the Nativity of Jesus Christ), then so are Baptist, Pentecostals, etc, for the many churches I have been too since my early childhood had images of the cross, Jesus Christ (especially in there tracts), a white dove with tongues on top (a symbol of the Holy Spirit), a open Bible with the lettering of John 3:16 on the right side, etc, and not to mention many of them have a strong attachment to a piece of cloth.

FYI, It was YOU who bought up the subject of Exodus 20 (to Cluny, who is a Orthodox Christian) and it's prohibitions of Idols. I simply REAFFIRM that the text has NOTHING to do with Images in general, but only Idols.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


\\You can support the actions of the RCC if you want, why its ok to worship, venerate, and even kiss the feet of Idols. \\

Et reliqua.

So you, too, bear false witness against us.

\\I am still waiting for the scripture to back up your statements.
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10\\

Sola scriptura is YOUR rule and YOUR game, Rod.

Neither are mine or the Bible's.
---Cluny on 4/13/10


Mark V. You will believe what you want to believe and will continue to bear false witness against your brethren. I have told you many times that we DO NOT worship Idols, but you will continue to say we do. I can bet my life that none of the authentic Eastern Orthodox websites defended Idols, but only Holy Icons.

How come we Eastern Christians, according to your ideology, Idolaters (because we simply have Icons) but most Americans are not, despite their pledging to a piece of cloth and venerated Statues, like the Lincoln Memorial? What about Mount Rushmore? Is that Idolatry?

You keep denying that Exodus 20 does not forbid images in general, but only Idols. No one is worshiping Idols.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/13/10


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The NEWS AGENCIES DO NOT report that the pope said that. Can people please report the news correctly, or shut up. This may even be 'bearing false witness against yourt neibhour'. I have read the report, and no one says he said that.
---peter on 4/13/10


Cluny:

Yes, but just who IS "The Church", exactly? In the New Testament, it is an informal term referring in general to "the body of believers". It is not a specific organization. Sure, there are false believers and false churches, but that has always been the case, and that will always be the case - the wheat can never be fully separated from the tares until the Final Judgment.
---StrongAxe on 4/13/10


Igantius and Cluny, It is not my right to tell you what to do and what to believe. You can do as you please concerning Idols. You can support the actions of the RCC if you want, why its ok to worship, venerate, and even kiss the feet of Idols. Every concevable excuse was given on their website, to why it is ok, even that a blank wall is an idol. You have the right to do as you please, I am not trying to make you do otherwise.
Concerning the priest molesting children, nobody should support or give excuses for those actions. No one whether you are Eastern or Western. And because others do it, does not give the RCC the right to continue to hide and move those molesters, so they can continue to molest.
---MarkV. on 4/13/10


Not guessing, Cluny.

I am still waiting for the scripture to back up your statements.
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10


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Igantius, I will answer you from the other blog. When I posted, my answer was to Ruben. I know Ruben is Catholic, What I said was for him as to what I knew about the RCC.
Then you answer and said to me,
Mark V. You said it will be unfair to say we believe this or that when you have not studied about Eastern Orthodoxy, yet, in your former posts you have made false accusations and assumptions about us Eastern Orthodox Christians." I was answering Ruben, not you so why did you say that if you are Eastern? Since Cluny came on and said if we wanted the truth of the RCC for us to their website. I assume he was also RCC. Now I find out your both Eastern and do have idols in church and worship them, when you said you didn't.
---MarkV. on 4/12/10


\\

I know some people visualize an institutional/organization when the term "church is used. However, most times the "church" is used of all believers anywhere. \\

Nope. Guess again.
---Cluny on 4/13/10


Cluny,//The Bible says that the CHURCH is the pillar and ground of the truth, and that those who will not hear THE CHURCH are to be considered as heathen.//

Cluny, where is the scripture for that in context?

A problem with THE CHURCH is when they abuse people, and then expect people to come and bow to them. Sounds pagan to me.

I know some people visualize an institutional/organization when the term "church is used. However, most times the "church" is used of all believers anywhere.

There were local assemblies who gather to fellowship with "one another," rebuking, exhorting, encouraging, stimulating to good works with one another.
---Rod4Him on 4/12/10


\\If I understand right, only "The Church" can administer the "Eucharist," which maintains or gives salvation. I may be wrong on that, so someone can correct my understanding on that issue. \\

The Roman Catholic Church says that the Eucharist, as celebrated by the Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonians, and Assyrian Church of the East, are true Eucharists.

Orthodoxy makes no statements about the Eucharist or other sacraments celebrated outside of herself.

\\However, if we are beholden to the "church," especially the RCC or the like, we are in trouble.\\

The Bible says that the CHURCH is the pillar and ground of the truth, and that those who will not hear THE CHURCH are to be considered as heathen.
---Cluny on 4/12/10


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\\Cluny, why should we look?\\

To find out the truth of the matter.

Obviously, you're not interested.

But again, the MSM is misrepresenting things, saying that CDF has posted "revised" procedures.
---Cluny on 4/12/10


One of the biggest problems with this issue and the RCC is that the RCC present themselves as the only institution/method for people to have a relationship with God. If I understand right, only "The Church" can administer the "Eucharist," which maintains or gives salvation. I may be wrong on that, so someone can correct my understanding on that issue. However, if we are beholden to the "church," especially the RCC or the like, we are in trouble.

This appalling issue should reveal that the established church is not the way to have a relationship with the Living God through Jesus Christ.
---Rod4Him on 4/12/10


Cluny, why should we look? Nothing was done, not by the local parrish or the Vatican. Does it take four years to answer? How about an email? I think that takes seconds. How about a phone call? Every second would save one more child. Do you even know that the RCC has one of the biggest intelligence in the world? They have known this was a problem for a long time with the priest.
I heard about the steps they should take by their lawyer that were written on the article but no steps were taken. people are not dumb enough to believe that the RCC is going to give you information that will hurt them on their website? They will give you want they want you to know and no more.
---MarkV. on 4/12/10


YES, I DO! And I am TIRED of God's name being ran through the mud. Satan, I'll be so glad when your day comes. No wonder nobody believes. No wonder no one knows what to believe. We all ought to, all of God'people, we ought to take to the streets, wailing and praying. I do not understand God's patience. The whole world is laughing as it rejoices in it's gods, and you can just imagine the atheists and the field-day that they are havng!
---catherine on 4/12/10


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For those who want the truth of what the Roman Catholic Church has done in the matter of abuse of minors, and an outline of the procedures to be followed when a priest is charged with it, these can be found on the Vatican web site.

Those who do not want to know and rejoice in slander will ignore this information.
---Cluny on 4/12/10


Cluny: 1 Corinthians 3:18. Surely I am not the first to bring this to you? In the letter you are so proud, yet in the spirit you are so dull! What you maintain about a non-denominational can be said about a professing Christian. Who is right? He who seeks the Lord with all his heart, not he who's sole determination is to beat other denominations into submission. Where's the perfect church? It's in the heart of every believer who makes the best efforts to ingest and digest God's Word, not the one whose best efforts are driven to the comparing of catechisms, rivalling them like hate-filled footballing derbies. Get there as an individual before you claim yours is the Congregation. You have your priorities in man.
---John_II on 4/12/10


What's a pope?
---Eloy on 4/12/10


\\ What I'm saying is, that the RCC is suppose to have infallible leadership,\\

In fairness, it should be pointed out that in the Roman Catholic Church, infallibility is limited ONLY to the Pope, and then only under certain carefully defined conditions.

None of these conditions include his making a merely prudential or administrative judgement.

Still less does it extend under ANY circumstances those in lower positions of authority--even cardinals.
---Cluny on 4/11/10


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Alan, no you are not defending them just speaking your mind. If you know of such actions by others, why do you not post where you got that information and who they are and what is been done about it. Expose it.
And, I didn't say it was the only denomination that does that. What I'm saying is, that the RCC is suppose to have infallible leadership, it proclaims that authority, their Apostolic succesion, yet it took four years in just one case. Four years for the Pope to do something, when they knew all along what was happening. Can you compare that to anyone? Do you have any idea how many children Kiesle did molest in that time? That is not even speaking of others. It is important to me and should be to you too.
---MarkV. on 4/11/10


\\Cluny: I've told you that I'm non-denominational, but the way you constantly charge at Protestants has me wondering about Orthodox, or if you're really a Catholic\\

1. I've frequently said that there's no such thing as non-denominational. It might be a denomination of just one congregation (or individual), but more likely the congregation or individual will be found to fit quite nicely into one of the existing denominations.

2. Do you actually think that the principal sign of being non-Catholic is playing Bash the Catholics?

NOBODY here has said the real problem with Roman Catholicism, namely Filioque That's because ALL western Christians (including Protestants and so-called non-demoninationals) are infected with it.
---Cluny on 4/11/10


Cluny, they should have stopped any priest from been around children. Stopped them from preaching. Not just send them to other places as they did all through history. This is the Church's fault, the leaders who are infallible. Four years it took for something to be done in one case only. The only reason they begin to do something is because of all the cases that came up. If the victims had not said anything, no one would know. When a priest hears the prayers of others, they learn what is inside a persons heart, and they abuse that privilage because of what they hear. The money they have had to pay is close to a billion. All they have to do is sell a couple of priceless artifacts out of the thousands they have and they have their money.
---MarkV. on 4/11/10


Cluny: I've told you that I'm non-denominational, but the way you constantly charge at Protestants has me wondering about Orthodox, or if you're really a Catholic. I've attended some Protestant churches: from the liberal to those still squeezing what they can from the Holy Spirit (instead of preaching repentance). And a Catholic one where they pray to Mary, to a Catholic church where Mary gets but a token mention. However, the service sheets are not that dissimilar. I used to think you were okay for keeping us on our toes, but you're just antagonistic. I'd ask if all Orthodox are like you, but I see how some say you are a lore unto yourself. I'm being swayed into thinking you're one of the deceitful workers that St. Paul warned about!
---John_II on 4/10/10


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\\But the RCC is by no means alone in having the problem and in failing to deal with the offenders, and protecting them rather than the children\\

This is the point I'm trying to make.

Pope Benedict, since his election, has actually done the MOST to revoke the faculties of such priests. (Deposition, defrocking, and laicization are NOT canonical terms, btw.)

BTW--contrary to what the secular media says, suspension of a priest from active ministry is the duty of the LOCAL diocese. Revoking of faculties to function and dismissal from the clerical state is a different juridical and penal action, and like and like all such processes, takes time.

As in secular criminal law, mere accusation is NOT proof.
---Cluny on 4/10/10


Cluny ... I have personal knowledge of a fundamentalist bible-believin' group covering child abuse by their own leaders.

MarkV ... That does NOT mean that I am supporting the RCC on this issue.

But the RCC is by no means alone in having the problem and in failing to deal with the offenders, and protecting them rather than the children
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/10/10


Nurseroberts, I could speak about what happened in the RCC til I am blue in the face and nothing will change. Any subject becomes personal among those that come from that denomination. Today they will defend their church no matter what. Ten years from now they will still defend it. The issues are not important, the church is. Their faith is in their church. Comments like, "Whosoever does not agree with the Apostolic See is without a doubt a heretic" Everything they say has to be believed. And when they are told there is no more problems they believe it. So they defend it. Everyone else is just trying to break the Church, but they will not let the real Truth come out. And I have no power to do change any of them.
---MarkV. on 4/10/10


The San Francisco Chronicle today had an article that says, "Future Pope slow to remove priest" It mentions that in 1985, four years after the Vatican learned of Stephen Kiesle's request to leave the priesthood, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins asking for more time to the consider the matter. Kiesle pleaded no contest in 1978 to lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two boys at Our Lady of the Rosary" parish in Union City. It took four years for the great future Pope to consider the case to be of grave significance because he worried about the reaction against the Church. He got six years for molesting five children when it could have stopped at two.
---MarkV. on 4/10/10


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\\Tv and the news have given Christianity a very bad name No, it hasn't. The Catholic church, by its attempts to bury this, has given the Catholic Church a bad name, NOT Christianity. \\

Would you like to hear about examples of Protestants burying child abuse?
---Cluny on 4/10/10


Mark, I have to disagree with you on so many points...

I do not believe this subject is a good one to bring up. What has happened has happened. What has happened is STILL happening. The only way to stop it is to expose it and those who are trying to hide it.

Tv and the news have given Christianity a very bad name No, it hasn't. The Catholic church, by its attempts to bury this, has given the Catholic Church a bad name, NOT Christianity.

for no one here has the power to stop it from happening. Yes, we do. If you continue to expose this, stand up for what is right, the Cathoic church will be forced to deal with it.
---NurseRobert on 4/9/10


Ruben, I rather stop there with my last response. I do not believe this subject is a good one to bring up. What has happened has happened. I hope they clean house for the sake of the children. Tv and the news have given Christianity a very bad name because of this actions and it hurts the whole body of Christ. I talked about this subject already a long time ago and it does not bring anything good just talking about it, for no one here has the power to stop it from happening.
---MarkV. on 4/9/10


\\Sexual abuse does happen in homes, in schools, and many other places but those places don't have the stamp of God.\\

Are you saying that homes were not started by God and should not bear his stamp? Or they are not supposed to teach what is Godly?

Why does an institution which we all agree was started by God Himself responsible for 30-60% of pedophilia?

On one particular case, that of Fr. Murphy of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, if you want to find more information that is given in the NY Times's on documentation (which they ignore) look up Priestly Pugilist, and go from there.

That is, if you really want a glimpse of the truth.
---Cluny on 4/9/10


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Ruben your comparison is no where close to the same. Sexual abuse does happen in homes, in schools, and many other places but those places don't have the stamp of God. The RCC is suppose to teach what is Godly, who represent the gospel of Jesus Christ, who are suppose to teach the morals and values, who listen to people prayers, yet were hiding the abusers, moving them from place to place after they had abuse many in one place and moved them to other places knowing very well they had a problem yet hide them, where they were allowed to abuse again and again and you are standing there telling us all that it is the same thing. Only its not. Many children could have been spared but were not in order to protect the Church.
---MarkV. on 4/9/10


Can we trust those stats? Wouldn't a child being abused by an outsider be less afraid of reporting than him/her being abused by a family member? How much more afraid in the church? Held back by pressure, devotion, loyalty, etc, and even love, and the not wanting to bring dishonour, guilt, and the losing of love? No, only one thing stops the child from reporting the outsider, the fear for him/herself and/or his/her family. In the family - church or home - the fear is of the family and the reactions and implications. A terrible array of conflicting emotions. You can pray, but if it's to a goddess then they resound to nowhere, when having a goddess is the most likely cause of why their is so much sexual misappropriation in the first place.
---John_II on 4/9/10


\\Cluny, boy you should be an attorney because you sure do defend the Pope alot.

And you seem so proud to be Orthodox? Is that what you are? So you wouldn't just call yourself a Believer in Christ Jesus? Why not?\\

I'm not defending the pope as such, or the papacy.

I'm pointing out the silly reasoning some people are using, to say nothing about totally unjust accusations that are being made in the MSM and apparently evangelicals here are believing, because it agrees with their prejudices.

Were I not limited to 125 words on replies, I could give a fuller story of the late Fr. Murphy who DIED while CDF (under Ratzinger) was prosecuting his case.
---Cluny on 4/9/10


Ruben is right, sexual abuse happens everywhere. Sexual sin on children does not stop. But what he forgets is that at the RCC those abusers were hidden from everyone.

---MarkV. on 4/9/10


MarkV you still don't get it. They did the say thing at the schools with Teachers and Janitors they just moved them or fired them w/o saying why. Mark how many Fathers abused thier kids at home with the Mother knowing about it but did not say a word..Think about it..It happen within my own family... IT IS A SOCIETY PROBLEM!!!!
---Ruben on 4/9/10


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Cluny, boy you should be an attorney because you sure do defend the Pope alot.

And you seem so proud to be Orthodox? Is that what you are? So you wouldn't just call yourself a Believer in Christ Jesus? Why not?

You're theology and explanation of the word is excellent, but your defense of a man, the Pope, ordained by other men (Bishops, Cardinals) is atrocious. You will see when you get to heaven that Catholicism is a cult. It draws and puts too much attention on the Pope, man-made rules such as praying to Mary, to statues, and praying to saints. They are not all-knowing, neither are they sovereign. And anything that takes the attention off of God is idolatry.
---anon on 4/9/10


\\And the whole Church is responsible. I read the number could be in the ten of thousands through the ages. They knew and didn't do a thing about it.
---MarkV. on 4/9/10\\

MarkV, is YOUR whole church (including you) responsible for abuses it did?
---Cluny on 4/9/10


Ruben is right, sexual abuse happens everywhere. Sexual sin on children does not stop. But what he forgets is that at the RCC those abusers were hidden from everyone. They were moved to other locations where they abused others. They were permitted to continue, in order to protect the Church from scandal. All the way up to the Pope this problem has been known and the worse sin was that they allowed them to continue. No one really knows the number since many abusers are still there and many more died with their secrets. And the whole Church is responsible. I read the number could be in the ten of thousands through the ages. They knew and didn't do a thing about it.
---MarkV. on 4/9/10


May I suggest that instead of criticizing the Pope for the words and actions the MSM (which have a vested interest) have attributed to him as well as a bias) why not go to the Vatican web site and Ossovatore Romano and find out what he actually did say and do?
---Cluny on 4/9/10


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The scandal is not so much that these things happened, but that when they came to light, the church just moved the priest to another place where he could carry on as before. The church thus became complicit in the original abuse.

Bishops felt it was more important to protect the reputation of the church than to protect the children from the abuse

That is not easily forgettable or forgiveable.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/9/10


The ministry in general is a perfect venue for pedafiles. Here's the thing"to who much is given, much is required". With the RCC as the richest single organization in the world and the largest denomination, it will always be heavily scrutinized. They should not make light of legal issues as serious as molestation of children. I agree that the Pope should be apologetic rather than denying such crimes. When all is said and done, God will judge those who are cruel and disobedient. "Nothing will be hidden that is hidden" and "all things will come to light" and will be exposed. May God have mercy on their souls.
---jody on 4/8/10


According to a study made in 2004, there is more sexual abuse of children by teachers (5%) than by Roman Catholic priests (2%), to say nothing about the percentage (estimated as between 30 and 60) of victims who are abused by their own family members.

Of course ANY amount by anybody is too much.

\\The Pope is regarded more highly than God himself......
---Robyn on 4/7/10 \\

Robyn, please tell us the number of people you personally know who regard the pope more highly than they do God.

If I knew how to reach her, I would ask Rosie O'Donnell a similar question. She made an equally unfounded and tasteless comment about gold toilets in the Vatican.
---Cluny on 4/8/10


"The catholic church has been plagued by allegations of these type for years and years......" (Robyn)

The majority of cases of sexual abuse are in the family life. You see Robyn, sexual abuse is a society problem as Ruben rightfully stated. The RCC is not the number one place where sexual abuses has occurred. It has happen in numerous Protestant churches and in non-church settings. Instead of pointing your big figure at the RCC, why not address the problem directly? Why not pray for those sick individuals who sexual abuse children?

We just hear about the sexual abuses in the RCC because it is the largest Christian church. But these allegations have plagued families long before any case arose in the RCC.

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 4/8/10


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For God sake,leave these poor kids alone! The Pope is regarded more highly than God himself. This is so wrong. It is a wonder more than this has not happened within this religion. And that's exactly what it is: a dead religion. That no one needs to be associated with.
---Robyn on 4/7/10

Robyn,

Do you know there is more sexual abuses in protestant's Church than they are in the RCC and also in school's....It is a society problem...
---Ruben on 4/8/10


The catholic church has been plagued by allegations of these type for years and years. What I can't understand is: why is everything of a sexual nature in the catholic church? If perhaps these man-made rules and regulations were lifted off of these cardinals, popes and other positions within the catholic church, these acts would stop. For God sake,leave these poor kids alone! The Pope is regarded more highly than God himself. This is so wrong. It is a wonder more than this has not happened within this religion. And that's exactly what it is: a dead religion. That no one needs to be associated with.
---Robyn on 4/7/10


Anon: you misquote the Pope - what he said was that the accusations are petty gossip - i.e. he does not [yet] beleive that it happenned. He NEVER said that molestation was either petty or gossip - I would be concerned that the blog question may even be a false accusation
---peter3594 on 4/7/10


\\My friend is suffering big time because her brother was molested by a Catholic Priest when he was little and she wants the priest prosecuted. \\

It cannot be denied that the media's repeatedly bringing up a case that Joseph Ratzinger was never involved in to start with yet blaming him for it IS petty gossip--especially since the priest involved DIED THREE YEARS before such cases were transferred to him as head of CDF.

By all means, the accused should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, for both criminal and ecclesiastical penalties.

The only thing the Church can do is revoke his faculties as a priest.

What is the sister doing to prosecute the case?
---Cluny on 4/7/10


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if the pope actually made that statement,then he too is wrong.accusations are just that,until proven.I would hope as the pope he would be sorely interested in what his priests are doing,and whether he realizes it or not molesting anyone is a sin,and he will answer to God for his part,and his words about this issue.does molestation make me angry? of course,and so does turning a blind eye to it maybe the pope is more concerned with the well being of the roman catholic church,than his sheep.
---tom2 on 4/7/10


What makes you think they are accurate when talking about Catholics?
---Cluny on 4/7/10

Cluny, what the Pope said about PETTY GOSSIP was quoted over and over again on ALL of the news shows including: Fox News, CNN, Good Morning America, Today Show, ABC nightly news, weekend news with Dan Harris, and on and on. They can't all be mis-quoting him.

The point is Cluny: It doesn't matter WHO repeated what the Pope said, MSN or not, it's WHAT he said that matters. My friend is suffering big time because her brother was molested by a Catholic Priest when he was little and she wants the priest prosecuted. She can't even think straight these days because it's being broadcasted all over the nations, nations is plural.
---anon on 4/7/10


Looking at your original post, anon, it seems that you are being influenced by the petty gossip of the MSM.

You know they are never accurate when talking about the faith and doings of Evangelicals. I know they frequently miss the point about Orthodox.

What makes you think they are accurate when talking about Catholics?
---Cluny on 4/7/10


In his Palm Sunday address the Pope reminded worshippers that belief in Jesus Christ helped lead Christians towards the courage of not allowing oneself to be intimidated by the PETTY GOSSIP of dominant opinion. He also spoke of how man can sometimes fall to the lowest, vulgar levels and sink into the swamp of sin and dishonesty.

But the growing sexual abuse scandals emerging out of mainland Europe, Ireland and North America have put the Vatican, and the Pope himself, firmly on the back foot as critics and abuse victims have called on Benedict to open up the Congregations files to see how the department handled abuse allegations. Some have even gone as far as calling for the Pope to resign.
---anon on 4/7/10


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The pope has not brushed off sexual abuse as you imply. But I guess it's okay to lie about Catholics as long as it helps the Evangelical cause.
---ger.toshav on 4/6/10


BTW, contrary to the title given this blog, Pope Benedict has NEVER said that pedophilia was petty.

You might want to look at what the Pope has actually said on the subject, instead of what secular media claims he has said.

The malicious and deliberate misrepresentation of his actions are hardly petty gossip, but a deliberate bearing of false witness against him.
---Cluny on 4/6/10


Actually, the secular MSM have been totally misrepresenting the facts of at least one particular case of clerical pedophilia.

It's would take more than 125 words to tell the story, but suffice it to say that the priest in question died during the canonical process against him.

He therefore had to answer for his actions in the highest court in the universe.

I, for one, hope that God was as merciful to this man as I would like Him to be to me.
---Cluny on 4/6/10


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