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Vatican's Salvation To Beatles

The vatican forgave the Beatles today for their past actions. Were the Beatles forgiven and is their sin to them no more? Who can truly forgive sins man or God?

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 ---earl on 4/12/10
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Only God can forgive the sins of a person.

God gave NO man charge or authority to do such as forgive a persons sins, specially the pope, when he Is the head of the first apostate church the rcc the first trin-relig-org which is here Matt.15 v 9 & came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 with their idol worship & also here Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.
God has Nothing to do with this Man-made relig-org.
They Are such Good people but they Are spiritually darkened & needs The Salvation that God has for them, Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20.
---Lawrence on 6/10/10

Obviously someone from the Beatles paid an INDULGENCE to the RCC for this.

All you need to do is send money to the RCC and they will forgive your dead relatives and friends. Pay the RCC to go to heaven.

They sold Indulgences to build the St Peter Basilica. Its one of their best ways to get money.

John was an advid Satanist and I believe Paul was also.
---John on 5/31/10

God alone provides-Salvation-through-
His Words.
In-Christ-Immanuel-Jesus Christ.

Any others Word is anti-
---char on 5/28/10

It's only because there is grace and election in the priestly people of God that the ordained ministry makes any sense.

But we are wandering far afield from the original subject of this blog.

I have asked several times where I can find what was actually and originally said about "forgiving the Beatles" (who have been defunct as a group for 40 years and half of them are dead now), and not what the secular media said was said, or how people with definite biases here interpret what the secular media said was said.
---Cluny on 4/16/10

"Called of God," Yes, there is a difference between a person following Christ, and one desiring to be an overseer. I suppose I was swinging the pendulum from the concept that a person is instinctaneously "called of God," which seems to trump qualifications to be an overseer.

These blogs are challenging for a person to accurately communicate what they mean to say. I prefer a face to face exchange of ideas, but obviously this is what we have to work with in this forum.
---Rod4Him on 4/16/10

\\mima, I thought all believers were "called of God."
---Rod4Him on 4/15/10\\

Right, as far as it goes.

But being drawn by the Father to the Son is NOT the same thing as being called to ordained ministry as deacon, presbyter, or bishop.

As for the other, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

It's a frequent occurrence on these blogs, isn't it?
---Cluny on 4/16/10

\\To---Rod4Him and Cluny my decisions are my own. I am not trying to decide for you. I am merely stating my experiences. And as for what I mean by ordained it is sometimes called "called of God".\\

In other words, you are deciding on the spiritual qualifications and gifts of other people simply on the basis of your own opinions being the final authority.

You seem to be claiming an infallibility that is not even claimed for the pope, mima.
---Cluny on 4/15/10

Cluny, I must not have written a clear sentence.

My statement, \\I do agree with the concept that becoming an overseer is not gained only through institutionalized education.\\

I think I am saying the same as you , and that is that a person can be an overseer without a formal education. He may have formal training, but that will not make him an overseer by itself. So, he may or may not have an formal education. I'll work on my english. :)
---Rod4Him on 4/15/10

mima, I thought all believers were "called of God."
---Rod4Him on 4/15/10

To---Rod4Him and Cluny my decisions are my own. I am not trying to decide for you. I am merely stating my experiences. And as for what I mean by ordained it is sometimes called "called of God".
---mima on 4/15/10

Cluny, Rod4 and Mima, the question is not who ordaines (naturally God does it), but how we KNOW if someone is ordained. THe odl church (RCC, orthodox and CofE - Episcopal in the US) is that new pastors are ordained by old pastors, who are given by God the understanding to know if the person should be ordained. Even that is uncertain, but it has a logic. Mima, you use ordained in a different way - that God gave that person the gift of speaking God's word. There, it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and that is also mentioned the Paul's letters
---peter3594 on 4/15/10

\\I do agree with the concept that becoming an overseer is not gained only through institutionalized education.\\

No, it's not.

At least two of the most effective Orthodox bishops never graduated from an Orthodox seminary. And one of them never had any degrees beyond his master's in another discipline.

In other words, in Orthodoxy, a seminary degree does not even guarantee ordination to the sub-diaconate.
---Cluny on 4/15/10

Rod4him, I have to agree with you about Mima's statement. I find no real cause for the question in the first place. There is things we are very much different on with the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox but picking who ordains ministers is not one of them since we have the words of Scripture to go by as you mentioned.
---MarkV. on 4/15/10

TO ---Rod4Him AND Cluny

Twice I have had the experience of being with a man that I knew was called of God and seen astounding things.

One man I was with had two different people come up to him and tell him that he saw a aura surrounding him.

Another time I experienced being with a person when another person walked up to him and said let me touch you please.

I was sold on both men before I saw the described incidents. Ever you ever experienced something like this?
---mima on 4/15/10


I could probably say the same thing - in about half a century, I have probably met a half dozen people who had a saintly aura about them - you could tell there was something special about them. If you looked at them, they seemed to glow. This kind of effect was described around Moses. It was also likely something similar that caused artists over the centuries to draw circular halos around the heads of saints.

(And, believe it or not, one of them was a sweet old Jehovah's Witness man. God is no respecter of persons, and many will end up surprised in the end by who is saved and who is not (Matthew 25))
---StrongAxe on 4/15/10

mima, I hate to be the skeptic, but are you the one to decide who is "ordained" by God? What do you mean by "ordained?"

I have observed that many people think charisma shows that one is "ordained." For example, many "successful" preachers have a sing-song mesmerizing presention.

I do agree with the concept that becoming an overseer is not gained only through institutionalized education. Paul to Timothy says being an overseer is a fine work. Paul goes on to say what qualifies as an overseerer, character. In addition, according to Paul, one can desire and become an overseer, but he must qualify.
---Rod4Him on 4/15/10

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\\After many years in and around Christian circles I have met perhaps five or six people in 50-year that show evidence of being ordained by God.\\

And who ordained you to decide this, mima?
---Cluny on 4/15/10

Cluny wrote,"Who ordained your ministers other than other men" and this statement uncovers a real problem with the Christian community.

Recently I met a man in prison who the moment he began to speak gained immediate recognition, by all present, of being ordained by God. It is this ordination that we are seeking out not an ordination brought on by education and training self-deluding ideas or any of the things that cause people to believe they should preach.

After many years in and around Christian circles I have met perhaps five or six people in 50-year that show evidence of being ordained by God. Generally speaking everyone recognized this when they hear the men speak.
---mima on 4/15/10

\\Who is the Vatcian but a man-made place where people are ordained by other people (men ordained by men) who made their house in Rome and called it the Vatican.\\

1. Who ordained your ministers other than other men?

2. Actually, anciently the Vatican was not considered one of the seven hills of Rome, which actually sits upon NINE hills.

What made you say such a silly and unhistorical thing?
---Cluny on 4/14/10

\\I searched the internet and found many sources reporting the same thing.
---Rod4Him on 4/14/10\\

And what is the original primary source?

One thing I've learned is that the MSM is usually badly mistaken about what they say about ANYBODY's church, especially when there is such a blatant agenda as we've lately seen vis-a-vis the Pope.

I know they have really been wrong about Orthodoxy, saying that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the equivalent of the Pope. He isn't and never has been.

An old Orthodox priest used to say that when the editor of the religion page does a consistently superb job for at least 10 years, he's promoted to copy boy in classfieds.
---Cluny on 4/14/10

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Only God can forgive sins. Jesus is God so He can too.

Who is the Vatcian but a man-made place where people are ordained by other people (men ordained by men) who made their house in Rome and called it the Vatican.

Did God construct the Vatican? or did man?

Did God tell the Vatican they can forgive sins? Where is that in scripture? PLEASE GIVE SCRIPTURE REFERENCE as to WHO can forgive sins?

The priests hidden in those little dark boxes cannot forgive sins YET they do it all the time (called confessional boxes). If I had to go in a box to confess my sins everytime I sinned, I'd never see the dawn of
---Donna on 4/14/10


I just did a search on "Vatican + Beatles".

The "forgiveness" (about an infamous remark) was extended TWO YEARS AGO in an article in which the writer (NOT a Churchman) expressed his PERSONAL LIKING for Beatles' songs.

Why is it being brought up now as if it were something new?

In any case, the "We're more popular than Christ" remark was apologized for decades ago.

The original post does NOT accurately summarize what really happened.

But this is so often the case on these blogs, I've noticed.

I wonder how many of the posters here make sure their preferred entertainments, TV shows, or even merchants meet their moral and spiritual requirements first?
---Cluny on 4/14/10

Cluny, I googled, Vatican forgives Beatles, and I got dozens of hits. Some may not be specifically related, but there were many that gave the same information.

If you find out that this is a hoax, I would be very interested in that information.

I am already suspect of slanted and inaccurate news. This would add fuel to my skeptic mind.

That's one reason I feel secure in going to the Bible and not a person. I like what I can see and evaluate. I don't trust people very far until I can check it out.
---Rod4Him on 4/14/10

This act of forgiving follows closely behind the problem the vatican are now confronted with and this action by coincidence may lure some pressure away from their current real problem.A good distraction sometimes works.The present catch phrase is after many years"why now"?
Why hold their forgiveness to them back for so long?
---earl on 4/14/10

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Peter- The Holy Spirit was just given to the disciples (verse 22). So actually, the Holy Spirit would be leading and guiding them about forgiving sins. The Holy Spirit Himself would be the One deciding and forgiving, not people. (John 20: 19-23)
---Betty on 4/14/10

The very phrase "The Vatican's newspaper L'Osservatore Romano.." shows that the rest of what it is reporting is inaccurate in either fact or interpretation.

Not everything in the OR is an official statement from the Vatican.

For example, there was an article in 2008 suggesting the entire issue of "brain death" needs to be rethought in light of new medical knowledge. This had to be followed by another statement saying that this was an opinion of the writer, and NOT a definitive ecclesiastical statement.

If you can give me a search string how I can find what OR is supposed to have said, I would appreciate it.
---Cluny on 4/14/10

Cluny, many news outlets are saying that the "The Vatican's newspaper L'Osservatore Romano" reports this issue. If it was only one news outlet, I would not take it too serious. However, these news outlets are quoting from the above mentioned Vatican source.

Yes, it may be rumor, but if that is the case maybe everything we read is a hoax. Maybe you don't really exist.

I know I was being facetious, but how do we know anything that is reported is true.

I searched the internet and found many sources reporting the same thing.
---Rod4Him on 4/14/10

I believe the holy see head of state wants people to believe he has power over peoples lives by saying he forgives .
---earl on 4/14/10

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\\This refers to any believer. We can pray to God for Him to forgive others.\\

No, it doesn't.

\\Earl, the official Vatican newspaper, Osservatore Romano d...\\

Osservatore Romano is NOT the official Vatican newspaper, the Holy See has its own press office. You might want to look up its history.

Franz Liszt and Richard Wagner, and Johann Strauss (pere et fils) all wrote beautiful music that is loved to this day. It is foolish to say otherwise. But this didn't stop them all from having the morals of billy goats.

To say someone writes beautiful music is not the same thing as saying you agree with him in all things.

In any case, the Beatles have been disbanded for 40 years, and two of them are dead.
---Cluny on 4/14/10

The dead are dead. They know nothing. They cannot hear or speak. The dead cannot know that they are forgiven and they cannot be forgiven. They died in their sins unless, of course, the living Beatles repent.

Ecclesiastes 9:5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."

Psalms 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish."

Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
---Steveng on 4/13/10

The dead are dead.

Isaiah 38:18,19 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."

Psalms 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
---Steveng on 4/13/10

Earl, John 20:20-24 does not give authority to Christians to forgive sin. Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainity of a sinner's forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel. The believer with certainity can also tell those who do not respond to the message of God's forgiveness through faith in Christ that their sins, as a result are not forgiven.
"Forgiveness of sins is only through Christ."
When you witness to someone and give the gospel, and that person responds to the message and repents, you can tell him his sins have been forgiven, not because you forgave them but because of their faith in Christ who will forgive them.
---MarkV. on 4/13/10

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"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." John 20:23

This refers to any believer. We can pray to God for Him to forgive others.

I have no idea what sins the RCC are being forgiven of the Beatles. What is the relationship between the Beatles and the RCC? Do they give money to RCC? This is all new to me.
---jody on 4/13/10

Earl, the official Vatican newspaper, Osservatore Romano described "their beautiful melodies live on like precious jewels".

This is the most confusing witness to the unsaved I've heard from a denomination in recent memory.
We are blessed that God deals with us as individuals because the RCC as an institution is pathetic.

Christians aren't edified by such an absurd declaration and even the unsaved, with their warped sense of right and wrong, find the church's behavior concerning child abuse disgusting and a distraction from any call by priests to true Holy living. They've long ago quit listening.
---larry on 4/13/10

Does anybody here, including earl, Rod4Him, or anyone else, know FOR SURE what this news item about the Vatican and the Beatles actually said?

Or are people just reacting to a rumor?

earl, can you give us SOME idea where you got this and where it can be verified?

Over a year ago, there was an article in L'Osservatore Romano about a list of songs liked by the author of an article, but it was no more than expressing the tastes of said author.

Ruby, I guess the verse I quoted is not in your Bible after all, because you apparently have not heard of it.
---Cluny on 4/13/10

I believe there is an additional message inside a message, one that the vatican is sending to the global public.
Why did those who condemed the actions of the Beatles years ago wait until now to announce their forgiveness.Why now?Why this week?
Did the Beatles ever tresspass against the holy see to prompt a need for the vatican/pope / forgive them?No
---earl on 4/13/10

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Betty, I certainly agree with you, but that phrase of Jesus in John's gospel is something that I do need to accept, though exactly how it is used I cannot say. Do you have any ideas about that? I would really like to hear other people's opinion. I know that, when Jesus said that, he did not mean that the person who says that himself/herself forgives - God does the forgiving, but do you have the idea of why we were told such a massive thing (John 20:20-24)
---peter3594 on 4/13/10

Amazing, the Vatican forgiving the Beatles shows how ridiculous the Vatican's position is on some spiritual concepts. This continues to discredit "The Church."

The Vatican does this and the people of the world are to take it serious?
---Rod4Him on 4/13/10

\\thus their 'excommunication' methods of putting someone out of the Church\\

Protestants do, in effect, the same thing.
---Cluny on 4/13/10

God is the ONLY one who can forgive sins. Man can NOT. Unless the Beatles repented (confessed and turned from their sins) they can NOT be forgiven by God. According to God, they (sins) are still there.
---Leslie on 4/13/10

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Only God can forgive sins.
---Betty on 4/13/10

Here the Vatican is taking the words of Jesus from John 20:23 'If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven'. It is generally not thought about much in the Protestant church, but the Catolics and Ordox Christians remember that verse a lot - thus their 'excommunication' methods of putting someone out of the Church. Personally, no particular opinion
---peter3594 on 4/13/10

\\The vatican can not forgive sins, only GOD can forgive sins!!
---Ruby7969 on 4/13/10\\

Is this verse in your Bible, Ruby?

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

In any case, if the original poster will give some idea where this information was found so that exactly what was reported can be read in context.
---Cluny on 4/13/10

Well, John was a self-proclaim Satanist. I believe Paul was as well.

I can onlY "IMAGINE" Ole John roasting Marshmellows with Ted Kennedy in Hell.

But. as he said: "I not the only one"
---John on 4/13/10

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If you do a web search, you can find articles dated yesterday and today about it on websites for Yahoo, BBC, Daily Mail, Miami Herald, the Telegraph, etc. Many of them are skeptical and suggest that this may be an attempt to distract headlines away from recent abuse cases.

In any case, it seems very conciliatory and compromising - an attitude very unlike the attitudes of the current Pope on other issues where people exhibit opinions or actions at variance with Church teachines.
---StrongAxe on 4/13/10

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, We know "the Son of man hath Power on earth to forgive sins" !!!

--- Earl :

Brother, We all were 'Forgiven', but not all "Received Forgiven".

---- Atheist :

Brother, Whether is easier to say, 'Thy sins be forgiven thee', or 'Arise and walk'?

As far as the going ons of the Vatican are concerned, it can be like a fountain sending forth at the same place sweet water and bitter : b/c out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing, BUT my brother, these things ought not so to be.
---ShawnM.T. on 4/13/10

And where did you get this tidbit?

There's nothing about it on the Vatican web site, nor, as far as I can tell, in the English version of the Osservatore Romano.
---Cluny on 4/13/10

Did you ever hear of 'Catholic heaven'?
Did you ever hear of 'Pope heaven'?
Did you ever hear of 'Bible heaven'?

Of course not....because they do not exist.

Man's forgiveness does not fulfill any requirements in order to get to the afterlife that God has waiting for us (in the book of Hebrews, the word used is "purification").

Man's forgiveness of each other is only POLITE, but not FUNCTIONAL in any way.
---more_excellent_way on 4/13/10

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The vatican can not forgive sins, only GOD can forgive sins!!
---Ruby7969 on 4/13/10

Only God can forgive the sins of people.

God gave NO man (such as a rcc-minister) designation of power to do such.
The devil being like the pied-piper with his deceiving tunes getting some people to believe anything that God has nothing to do with.
---Lawrence on 4/13/10


Were the Beatles all Catholics?

But I guess the Vatican can 'forgive' anyone they want. Or the can ignore anything that is going on that they want...
---atheist on 4/12/10

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