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Who Is The Church

Who IS the Church? Is it the RCC, the Eastern Orthodox, or is it every true believing Christian on this planet?

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 ---miche3754 on 4/13/10
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-- Ruben :

The verse prior tell us who they were: even now are there many > ANTICHRISTS.
So who is swifter to speak and not listen? --Ruben


Brother, :-) Still you !!!

You're only confirming what I was sharing about them not being God's Children Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise and at the same time you DISPROVED your own earlier clam that "no where is he saying that all who departs had never been Christians. -- Ruben 4/20/10", The antichrists are not Christian !!!!!

Ruben, Next time be swifter to Hear and Slower to speak & wrath, b/c your wrath to speak your dogma quickly worketh not the Righteousness of God. James 1:19-20

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T on 4/22/10


-- Nana :

Which voice? Is it the loudspeaker who says, "To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?" --Nana

Brother, I've already shared with you in the Blog "Can You Lose Salvation" the scriptures Exodus 23:20-21 of "Which voice to Obey". So don't hate the reproof of the correction of God's Word that keeps us in the 'Way' which you've received in that Blog, by provokingly dragging that matter into this Blog, b/c all you're doing is revealing your "Envy" !!!

"I send an Angel before thee, to KEEP thee in the 'Way', and to bring thee into the place which I have Prepared.

Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not... for My name is in him." Exodus 23:20-21
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/22/10


-- Miche :

When friends I have had turn back from the plow... --Miche

Sister, Your denying the Truth of 1 John 2:19, b/c you can't accept "They[your friends] went out from us, that they might be made manifest THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US, b/c had they been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us.

The Hearts of God's Children Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise are 'Persuaded' that neither things PRESENT[meaning all those scripture "IF" WARNINGS] nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from God's Love in Christ.

Miche you say your Heart is convicted to this, but still you deny that ALL of God's Children's Hearts are like-wise convicted by His Loving Seal of Promise !!!
---ShawnM.T. on 4/22/10


Brothers and Sister:

This is what I know. I hope you all listen in love.

Only God knows the hearts of men. Only He knows who will truly abide within Jesus and who will not.

For this reason we believers should not try to discern who is a tare and who is wheat. Or try to discern who is saved and who is not really saved but claiming to be.

We should admonish everyone to heed the words of both sides of the issue, that we have been "chosen, elect from the foundation of the world for obedience to Christ" and that "He will keep us from stumbling" to the other side that we should "keep ourselves in the love of God" and "work out our own salvation".
---Mark_Eaton on 4/21/10


Elder * Ruben are you trying to say I can sin and overpower the Lord? Paul never warned us about it. Neither did any other writer.

Not sure what you mean by overpower, but sin can cut you off from him (Mtt 5:29-30)(1 Cor 6:15-18)

Elder * John 15 has to do with abiding in Christ to bear fruit. Bearing fruit does not make or keep a Christian. It has to do with service towards the cause of Christ.
If we don't abide in Christ we become very ineffective.

Ineffective, how about thrown away and burn:

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." v6
---Ruben on 4/21/10




"IF" IS A VERY BIG WORD!!!!!
---KarenD on 4/21/10


-- Ruben : Brother, You don't Hear 1 John 2:19 saying all who departs has never been Christians b/c you're swifter to speak than to listen !!!

"US" would be Christians, and "they who were not ALL of us" would be all who depart having never been of US which are Christians.

---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10

Shawn

The vesre prior tell us who they were:

"even now are there many > antichrists , whereby we know that it is the last time.

They went out from us, but they were not of us"

So who is swifter to speak and not listen?
---Ruben on 4/21/10


BTW~Rom.8:37-39 covers all present verb IF'S, not being able to separate us from God. AMEN
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10

Really:

Romans 11:20-22 If we do not continue in Gods kindness we will get cut off.


"They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud , but stand in awe . For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness , otherwise you too will be cut off. "
---Ruben on 4/21/10


---Shawn.M.T. has pointed out and demonstrated a great truth in first John 2:19. However I am not under any illusions that those who insist you can be saved and then be lost again giving credence to---Shawn's.M.T. excellent points.
---mima on 4/21/10


Ruben are you trying to say I can sin and overpower the Lord? Paul never warned us about it. Neither did any other writer.
John 15 has to do with abiding in Christ to bear fruit. Bearing fruit does not make or keep a Christian. It has to do with service towards the cause of Christ.
If we don't abide in Christ we become very ineffective. His blessings and fellowship with/on us is withheld.
The word "abide" is "Meno" it means "a given place, relation, dwell or continue to be present.
A Saved man in I Cor 5 was involved in physical sin. He was ineffective for the Lord and judged by Paul. Yet he remained Saved. How do you or the "you can lose your Salvation" crowd account for that?
---Elder on 4/21/10




The true church is made up of all those who Love GOD with all their heart. Not like an adulterer who says they love their wife but goes sleeps around on her. No they will look to GOD and wish to please HIM. Those who say they love GOD but live for the world show they are lying. I john.

The true church will also love their neighbor. They will not withold funds that could feed the starving because they need a nicer car or house. The will remeber what JESUS said about if you treat others like you would treat me. Matthew 25.
---Samuel on 4/21/10


Shawn,

What about verses 1 john 2:20-25?

What if the person who left us still believes in God and Jesus BUT decides they can't serve any more? I believe the Bible calls this dead faith. These people do exist.

Has their belief changed and are they still sealed? I believe they have unsealed themselves because they fell prey to the world. They still believe but are not acting on that belief.
Especially in light of the fact that as soon as we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, he comes to live in us, we receive the Holy Spirit Seal.
---miche3754 on 4/21/10


-- Ruben :

no where is [1 John 2:19] saying all who departs had never been Christians --Ruben

Brother, You don't Hear 1 John 2:19 saying all who departs has never been Christians b/c you're swifter to speak than to listen !!!

They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not ALL of us. 1 John 2:19

"US" would be Christians, and "they who were not ALL of us" would be all who depart having never been of US which are Christians.

BTW~Rom.8:37-39 covers all present verb IF'S, not being able to separate us from God. AMEN
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10


"Nana, You cherry-pick scriptures & apostle's name as witnesses, like a false prophets in sheep's clothing led away with the error of the wicked, who support dogma which does not obey the voice which is sent to keep us in the 'WAY' and bring us unto the place which our Lord has prepared : The Redemption of Salvation."
Which voice? Is it the loudspeaker who says, "To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?"
You betray yourself in that you acknowledge the cherries, yet deny them as if saying, "There shall be no cherries in the house of the Lord!"
---Nana on 4/21/10


Actually Shawn I did mean to say faith
as in "SHOWING OUR FAITH".

We can say all day long that we have faith but it is nothing unless we can SHOW WE HAVE FAITH.

By the way, as long as man has freewill, anyone who is in the ark can jump out if they want.
My point is WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO?!?!?
I'll stay with God. The world can stay out there, lol.
When friends I have had turn back from the plow, I ask them why. After they found out how good God really is how could they just walk away?
Well, the cares of the world were too much at that time is usually what happens. But I believe God keeps his eye on them. And on HIS time he pulls them back in.
---miche3754 on 4/21/10


Brother, You ignore Rom.8:37-39, nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from God's Love in Christ Jesus....
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10


Jesus say in Jhn 10:29-30, that no one can snatch us out of his Hands. No exterior force can do that.(as Paul explains in the verse in question)However he does not say that we can not sin our way out from his hands,we can though sin do it by ourselfs. In John 15 a few chapters later he says " I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
---Ruben on 4/20/10


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--Miche :

I just wonder what those who throw the false "works for salvation" card think...?

Do they think they can speak that they have faith but NOT show that they have[I believe you meant to say "Works"] faith?

HOW is obeying God works for salvation --Miche


Amen~Sister, I would like to Hear that explanation as well.... and would like to add & ask "How does our flesh not being able to Perfectly Fulfill all the Works & Law cause anyone Sealed in Christ, to Lose Salvation ??"... b/c we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, when the Seal of God's Holy Spirit dwell in us. Rom.8:1-9

I Praise God Miche for you still being with us enduring in the Truth !!
---Shawn.M.T on 4/20/10


It is individual Christians.We are living stones part of the body of Christ.
---shirley on 4/20/10


b/c if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. 1 John 2:18-19 AMEN
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10

Shawn

Context,Context, Context:

He is speaking about a group of people(Gnostics) who came into the Church and acted like Christians,(v 18 Anti-Christs) no where is he saying that all who departs had never been Christians before. A few verse on it reads to CHRISTIANS:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments .

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 JHN 2:2-5)
---Ruben on 4/20/10


Peter, I do not have room enough to go through the teachings of the RCC here on line, but one thing you should focus on, that Evangelicals teaches different then Roman Catholicism, and that is that Christ paid once and for all, our (genuine believers) sins on the Cross. It did not need to be supplimented with the ritual of a Mass. The Mass is a continuous sacrifice done over and over.
Only God knows who is truly saved and who isn't. His Church is comprised of all the redeemed, who are perfectly united together in Christ. This unity is not always visible to us, but it is to God. Unity embraces all redeemed believers and no one else.
There is some doctrines we agree on but not on the main topic of salvation.
---MarkV. on 4/20/10


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-- Ruben :

you ignore the numbers of scriptures verse that warns [with the present verb IF'S] --Ruben

Brother, You ignore Rom.8:37-39, that the Hearts of God's Children are 'Persuaded' that neither things present [meaning all those scripture IF'S] nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from God's Love in Christ Jesus.... and when all the hearts that are 'Not Persuaded', decides to walk away from God's Children which are the Church, they do so that they might be made manifest they were not all of us who are Sealed with God's Holy Spirit of Promise unto the Redemption of Salvation, b/c if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. 1 John 2:18-19 AMEN
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/20/10


In the Old T. the vine is used commonly as a symbol of Israel (Ps. 80:9-16, Is. 5:1-7, 27:2-6, Jer. 2:21, 12:10, Ezek. 15:1-8, 17:1-21, etc). ..The Vine has two types of branches,
---MarkV. on 4/17/10

Both vines are of Israel. The Northern house divorced and Judah/Benj.

Heb 8:8, Jer 31:31,
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Nations/Ethnos be come in.

26And so all (both houses)Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(Jacob=all nations of Israel....his offspring)
---Trav on 4/20/10


Amen Ruben!!!

I just wonder what those who throw the false "works for salvation" card think about what Jesus says for us to do?

Do they think they are not supposed to obey God?
Do they think they can speak that they have faith but NOT show that they have faith?

HOW is obeying God works for salvation?!

I obey because Christ is in me telling me to obey and I love him so I do obey. That is submitting to HIS WILL!

Anyway, keep speaking this truth brother!!
---miche3754 on 4/20/10


-- Ruben :

Brother, Your dogma of the 'Prodigal Son' being Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise before leaving his father, is what's forcing & leading your thoughts astray from a sincere & pure devotion to Christ being able to FULFILL God's Will, that He should Lose Nothing which God has given Him !!!

---ShawnM.T. on 4/19/10

And your dogma of not losing salvation nor you have no Free Will is clogging your mind. Case in point is the "Podigal Son", when God the Father says, you were 'Dead' it still means you are saved!
---Ruben on 4/20/10


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ShawnM.T.* You lack the Hopes of Faith to Trust in Rom.14:4 of God's Charity to keep us Sealed til the Day of Redemption.

And you ignore the numbers of scriptures verse that warns us how we can walk away from the Holy Spirit promise..

ShawnM.T.* which is why our Hearts are 'Persuaded' that neither things present[IF'S] nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from His Love which is in Christ Jesus.

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away, (MT 5:29)

If you do not forgive men their trespasses(MT 6:15)

If a man does not abide in me(Jhn 15:6)

If we keep his commandments( 1 Jhn 2:3)




---Ruben on 4/20/10


Mark Eaton, Ruben, Nana,

Amen brothers!!
Keep defending the true full word of God!
---miche3754 on 4/20/10


MarkV, I think you somewhat overstate your point there. Yes, there are things that the RCC has that I do not agree with, but some have a reasonable (even if not correct) base in the scriptures. I do not tink that indulgences remain a teaching in these later days of the RCC. Purgatory I cannot find in scripture, or any evidence that it existes, but neither do I find a direct ban on thinking that way, so we must argue with the RCC about it. Baptismal regeration is based, as far as I can see, on Jesus' phrase 'those who beleive AND ARE BAPTIZED' will be saved, while I am not usre about which of the teaching about mass you mind.
---peter3594 on 4/20/10


Nana, let me say that there can never be any unity between the RCC and evangelicals Churches when the doctrines of the RCC, the teachings regarding mass, purgatory, indulgences, baptismal regeneration undermine the one Sacifice of Jesus forever secured the remission of sins. The RCC does not teach the saving gospel as set forth in the Word of God. The gospel state that the atoning death of Jesus paid in full the penalty of all our sins, rendering us sinless before God, free of all condemnation, and assuring us that upon death we will join the Lord in heaven. Jesus offers that forgiveness as a gift, it cannot be earned by the performance of good and noble deeds as if they possessed spiritual collateral.
---MarkV. on 4/20/10


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"Additionally, you must remember that in John 15 that abide is written using the present participle in Greek, meaning continual/habitual action or a "lifestyle". We cannot abide once and get the job done. "
---Mark_Eaton on 4/18/10

That is an excellent doctrinal point, Mark-Eaton.
---Nana on 4/20/10


-- Ruben :

Brother, Your dogma of the 'Prodigal Son' being Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise before leaving his father, is what's forcing & leading your thoughts astray from a sincere & pure devotion to Christ being able to FULFILL God's Will, that He should Lose Nothing which God has given Him !!!

You lack the Hopes of Faith to Trust in Rom.14:4 of God's Charity to keep us Sealed til the Day of Redemption. It's why you can't Trust & Believe that God's Holy Spirit of Promise is an 'Unbreakable Seal' upon His Children's Hearts, which is why our Hearts are 'Persuaded' that neither things present[IF'S] nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from His Love which is in Christ Jesus.
---ShawnM.T. on 4/19/10


Those who continue to miss use John 15:2,

The unfruitful branches were under the Old Covenant and were NEVER SEALED : t.
---ShawnM.T. on 4/18/10

" if ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

" if ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Shawn, your theology forces you to believe that you can not lose your Salvation..."If" is a present verb not a past action....
---Ruben on 4/19/10


Mark E. whether you abide or not is not the question. The question is, does a genuine Christian have secured salvation, and the answer is yes. He can never lose it if he has it. Those that are lost never had true faith, if they had they would have abided in Christ. They left as 1 John 2:19 states, "that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"
What that tells us is that we should know them who are not save, when you see them leaving, and the reason they did was to show us they were not of us.
Her argument is that if you sin, you can lose your salvation, which makes salvation base on works of the law, and not on the Works of Christ on the Cross for the forgivness of sins once and for all.
---MarkV. on 4/19/10


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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Ear?

Brethren, God's Holy Spirit of Promise is an 'Unbreakable Seal' upon His Children's Hearts : 'Persuaded' that neither things present nor things to come, shall be able to separate us from His Love which is in Christ Jesus.

Those who continue to miss use John 15:2, lack the Hopes of Faith in God's Charity to keep us Sealed til the Day of Redemption.

The unfruitful branches were under the Old Covenant and were NEVER SEALED : While the Fruitful branches which came from the Old Covenant are now part of the Church Sealed until Redemption with the New & Better Covenant of the Holy Spirit of Promise, who shall continue to bear God's Spiritual Fruits b/c of His indwelling Holy Spirit.
---ShawnM.T. on 4/18/10


None of them, but the obedient from Christ.
---Eloy on 4/19/10


MarkV:

I repeat, your argument with Miche is about WHO is saved and who is not.

In John 15, you define the branches that do not abide as apostate christians who never genuinely believed. If you had stopped at saying apostate christians, Miche would agree with you.

It is the second part of the definition, "never genuinely believed" where the dissent comes in. I am unsure if you have a biblical basis for this statement.

Additionally, you must remember that in John 15 that abide is written using the present participle in Greek, meaning continual/habitual action or a "lifestyle". We cannot abide once and get the job done.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/18/10


Mark 3: The picture is of the Vinedresser, the Father getting rid of dead wood so the living fruit bearing branches may be sharply distinquished. This is also a picture of Apostate Christians who never genuinely believed and will be taken away in judgment (Matt. 7:16, Eph. 2:10) the transforming life of Christ has never pulsated within them (8:31,32, Mathew 13:18-23, 24:12, Heb. 3:14-19 etc). "He Prunes," here God removes all things in the believers life that would hinder fruit-bearing. He chastises to cut away sin and hindrances. "Abide in Me, the word abide means to remain or stay around. The remaining is evidence that salvation has already taken place (1 John 2:19). The ones who left were not sheep. They did'nt Abide.
---MarkV. on 4/17/10


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Mark E, welcome to the discussion. If we can go through your passages it would be great. First of all what I put down is what Shawn T stated.
John 15:1 is not clearly stated as you suggest. It is a Metaphor, and interpreting a metaphor is to interpret an implicit statement (imply), not an explicit one (fact) that clearly states something. Second Jesus used the imagery of agricultural life at the time, vine and vine crops. In the Old T. the vine is used commonly as a symbol of Israel (Ps. 80:9-16, Is. 5:1-7, 27:2-6, Jer. 2:21, 12:10, Ezek. 15:1-8, 17:1-21, etc). Third, He specifically indentified Himself as the "True Vine" and the Father as the "Vinedresser" or caretaker of the vine.
The Vine has two types of branches,
---MarkV. on 4/17/10


Mark E 2: branches that bear fruit (vv.2,8) and 2. branches that do not (vv.2<6). The branches that bear fruit are genuine believers. Though in the immediated context the focus is upon the 11 disciples, the imagery also encompasses all believers down through the ages. The branches that do not bear fruit are those who profess to believe, but lack of fruit indicates genuine salvation has never taken place and they have no life from the vine. Especially in the immediate context, Judas was in view, but the imagery extends from him to all those who make a profession of faith in Christ but do not actually possess salvation. The image of no-fruit bearing branches being burned pictures Judgment to those branches Ez. 15:6-8.
---MarkV. on 4/17/10


-- Miche :

the parable of the 10 brides. 5 were wise, 5 were not. Seems to me all were brides... --Miche

Sister, Fear of the Lord that is 'Wisdom' Job.28:28

The 5 Wise Brides were our Lord's True Brides. The 5 that were not wise could not continue with the True Brides & had to go out from them : They went out from them that they might be made manifest that they were not all of them, who were the True Brides of the Bridegroom Christ Jesus, and these are the Last Times !!! 1 John 2:18-19

Miche, Your 'beef', as you put it, with me is I cater only to God's Truth and not to your teaching !!!

BTW~The Church Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, endures till the end to redeem Salvation.
---Shawn.M.T. on 4/16/10


II Pete 2:20-22

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
---KarenD on 4/16/10


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//No building or organization constitutes the church. They are simply congregations and meeting places for those of like docrinal beliefs.
The Church is,and has always been the 'body'(the family of believers in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus as a sound whole, collectively and individually, delivered and protected) of Christ.No more, no less.
"Now you are 'the body of Christ', and members individually."1Cr 12:27"So we,[being]many, are 'one body in Christ', and individually members of one another.Rom12:5(NKJV)//
joseph on 4/16/10
In Agreement-again...
-Amen-


Christ's Body-sacrificed in righteousness for the body-not in righteousness-renewal.[By-Through-For him-New Man].
Repentance-remission.
Rom5-6
---char on 4/16/10


Mark E,

I could not have put it better myself.

I believe it the way you just put it.

It is too bad some just don't get it and refuse to stop falsely accusing me of saying work for salvation. I have NEVER said that.


God bless you brother.

I also agree that no, we have not received full salvation, yet. But that is another topic for discussion, AMEN.
---miche3754 on 4/16/10


MarkV, Miche:

I believe in eternal security for the believer. It is obvious that we are kept by God and nothing can separate us from His love, Romans 8.

However, I believe that we can walk away from God and faith to the point of being removed by our Heavenly Father. John 15:1 clearly states that every branch that does not produce fruit is removed by God. If we combine this with John 15:6, these branches are then thrown into the fire and are burned.

Whether these people have salvation or not is what you are fighting about.

I would suggest you consider that we do not have salvation YET.

Heb 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end"
---Mark_Eaton on 4/16/10


A Bride in the real physical world does change her mind many times. No question about it.
But in the Spiritual realm, the Bride is the Bride forever. This is not a matter of any physical actions of man, but the Spiritual actions of God. When you think in the flesh it is only flesh, you have to think in the Spirit for our salvation is Spiritual, our baptism into one body is spiritual, and when we are brought to live, it is spiritual rebirth. The physical flesh has not been redeemed, but will when it is glorified.
Miche is still thinking carnal, in the flesh.
---MarkV. on 4/16/10


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Even a bride can change her mind before the wedding supper.
---KarenD on 4/16/10


AMEN!!!!!
---miche3754 on 4/16/10


Even a bride can change her mind before the wedding supper.
---KarenD on 4/16/10


No building or organization constitutes the church. They are simply congregations and meeting places for those of like doctrinal beliefs.
The Church is, and has always been the 'body' (the family of believers in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, as a sound whole, collectively and individually, delivered and protected) of Christ. No more, no less.
"Now you are 'the body of Christ', and members individually." 1Cr 12:27
"So we, [being] many, are 'one body in Christ', and individually members of one another. Rom 12:5 (NKJV)
---joseph on 4/16/10


miche3754...I have already answer the blog question.


Those of us who sincerely love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to live for HIM are the "true church" of Jesus Christ.
---KarenD on 4/13/10
---KarenD on 4/15/10

Then you believe as I do. I especially like what you said about LIVING for Christ.
Our actions certainly show if we are his or not.
Fruit is what I see.
God bless you sis.
---miche3754 on 4/16/10


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Miche, what bothers you is that Shawn agree's with what I say not because he likes me but because it is from Scripture and you don't like that. How can he go against Scripture just to support my view? But you do, you abandon the truth to support your false view.
"You make the blood of Christ to no effect. You suggest that His blood is not good enough once for all to cleanse you, that it needs your works in order to cleanse and forgive you."
I said it was the same doctrine from the RCC and same doctrine of Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnessess, Buddah etc. Salvation by works. You want Shawn T to be against what I say, but he is not because he believes the same truth that I do. He just explains it different.
---MarkV. on 4/16/10


Markv,
The true believer can fall away when NOT doing the things God has them do.
They can turn their back on God.

You don't understand freewill given to us by God so I can't explain properly to you. You are just to immature in spirit to understand the meat of God's word.
And my beef with Shawn has every thing to do with him catering to your false teachings.

Another thing that comes to my mind is the parable of the 10 brides. 5 were wise, 5 were not.
Seems to me all were brides but only 5 were ready for the Bridegroom. But you don't understand the meat of the word of God, Markv. So, again, how can I explain?
---miche3754 on 4/15/10


miche3754...I have already answer the blog question.


Those of us who sincerely love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to live for HIM are the "true church" of Jesus Christ.
---KarenD on 4/13/10
---KarenD on 4/15/10


Miche, I've read your blogs, you posted this one and have not explained your answer. If as you say, the true believer is the church, the
Bride of Christ, how can they fall away?
Because if they fall away they are not the Bride. The true believers are either the Bride or they are not the Bride. Which is it?
You refused to pay attention to what Shawn T said, that they could not possibly be the Bride if they did not follow and gave you the Scripture 1 John 2:19, "They went out of us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"
For what reason do you think this passage was given?
---MarkV. on 4/15/10


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miche3754...You don't want to answer my question because you think it is for another blog. Then you turn around and ask me what I believe. Are you just wanting to convert people to your way of thinking?
---KarenD on 4/14/10


Actually, no that is not what I meant.
I just wanted you to answer the blog question.

Nothing else.
Why would you think any of that about me?
Have you even bothered reading any blogs I have posted? If you had, you would not have asked that question, you would already know.
---miche3754 on 4/15/10


the church is every born again believer,and they are the bride.
---tom2 on 4/14/10


1Cr 1:11-13a For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?
Mat 7:24b a wise man, which built his house upon a rock(petra):
Rom 9:33b a stumblingstone and rock(petra) of offence
1Cr 10:4b that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock(petra) was Christ.
Jhn 1:42 called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone(petros).
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you(his disciples-Mat 18:1), Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
---MIchael on 4/14/10


michael e- Obviously I meant an assembly of Christians assembled for the purpose of worshipping God.
---Betty on 4/14/10


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miche3754...You don't want to answer my question because you think it is for another blog. Then you turn around and ask me what I believe. Are you just wanting to convert people to your way of thinking?
---KarenD on 4/14/10


There are people who believe that the denomination they are in is the ONLY true church. Such as the Rcc, or Eastern Ortho., Mormons, etc.
That is just not biblically supported.

---miche3754 on 4/14/10

It is biblically supported:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (MT 16:1619)
---Ruben on 4/14/10


Markv,
The point is is that YOU can walk away from GOD.
I did not ever say God walks away from us.
You are Christ's bride as long as YOU ABIDE IN HIM AND HIM IN YOU.
But you ignore that you are to abide in him and be conformed to Christ.

I believe we must have FAITH + WORKS.
You believe you only need Faith.
What does the Bible say?
The Bible says :
FAITH + WORKS = ETERNAL SALVATION.
There is no other DOOR but Christ and he has to be in you and you in him and if you are in him your actions will display that.
If you aren't, you ARE NOT THE BRIDE.
Faith - works = death
works - faith = death
Stop telling me what I believe, because you are not me and you don't KNOW me. GOD DOES.
---miche3754 on 4/14/10


Miche, as I understand very clearly from your prior statements, is that those who are saved and belong to the body of Christ can be lost, and here you say they are the Bride,

"I believe that those who are a part of Christ's body as defined by HIM are his Church, HIS Bride."

But you believe the church members of His body can be lost, so they are really not His bride if they are lost after they become His bride. So you suggest they can be a Bride and then not be a Bride by walking away makes your statement not true at all.
You should have said, some of those in the body of Christ as define by Him (Christ) cannot be the Bride.
---MarkV. on 4/14/10


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Karen,

I am glad to answer those questions for you but on a different blog or personal email.
This blog is about who YOU believe the true church is.

I believe that those who are a part of Christ's body as defined by HIM are his Church, HIS Bride.
There are people who believe that the denomination they are in is the ONLY true church. Such as the Rcc, or Eastern Ortho., Mormons, etc.
That is just not biblically supported.

What do you believe?
---miche3754 on 4/14/10


miche3754...There are many truths in the pages of the Bible. For instance, do you believe that Jesus is God and part of the Godhead/Trinity? Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as recorded in Acts? Do you believe in eternal security or that you can lose your salvation? Do you believe that all people calling themselves Christian (Mormons, etc) are included in the "church"?
---KarenD on 4/13/10


EVERYONE who accepts Christ as savior and Lord (boss) whether Jew or Gentile is the church.
---Leslie on 4/13/10


The church [true] is not a building. The church are God's people, His redeemed people. The ones that He has bought with His Blood.
---catherine on 4/13/10


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The church is the assembly of people.
---Betty on 4/13/10
we can have an assembly of people anywhere anytime.
A union meeting is an assembly of people.
Masonic lodge has an assembly of people
Ball games have an assembly of people.

Are these churches?
---michael_e on 4/13/10


The church is the assembly of people.
---Betty on 4/13/10


The problem with this question is that we don't know what Miche3754 thinks is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God (the Bible) has the truth. Many people today who call themselves Christians have perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ to suit their own lifestyle.
---KarenD on 4/13/10

Okay, Im not going to get upset, but Im going to ask you why you would think I don't believe the true Gospel?
I have read your blogs, haven't you read mine?
I believe that ALL believers are the Body of Christ. NO denom can get you into heaven. Only Christ can.
But there are those on this site who believe their denom does get them into heaven. Thats why I asked the question.
---miche3754 on 4/13/10


The problem with this question is that we don't know what Miche3754 thinks is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God (the Bible) has the truth. Many people today who call themselves Christians have perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ to suit their own lifestyle. Personally, I don't think there is a church organization today that is teaching the "pure" Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those of us who sincerely love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to live for HIM are the "true church" of Jesus Christ. Fellowshiping with a church body is important in serving the Lord.
---KarenD on 4/13/10


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Miche: The Church of Jesus Christ is as you've stated, i.e., every true believing Christian on the planet. The Church, in essence, is the Body of Christ with the Lord Jesus being its head. (Matt. 16:18)
---Leon on 4/13/10


it's The Body of Christ, revealed to the Apostle Paul, every true believing Christian on this planet? Believers of The Gospel 1Cor.15:1-4

Col. 1: 18 And he is the head of the body, the church...

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
---michael_e on 4/13/10


The church is made up of people that follow these directions,

Romans 10:13,"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Acts 2:21,"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Joel 12:32," And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered"

---mima on 4/13/10


All through history, I can see, there have been religious individuals who have ignored or suppressed the real Christians, even making sure they were not reported in historical records. These more showing individuals are like hoarders who keep trash in their houses, and animal hoarders who keep animals that are not fed right and are sick, and yet these hoarders think they are rescuing these animals, when in fact they do not give them what they need. Like this, now, we have various religious *people hoarders*, show-and-tellers who are not personally involved with their people. Christ's leaders personally share with us, so we can feed on their *examples* (1 Peter 5:3), while we share with them in their real lives.
---Bill_bila5659 on 4/13/10


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My answer is that it is everyone who loves GOD with all their heart soul and mind and who loves their neighbors as themselves.

It is the called out people of GOD who put GOD first in their lives and who really care and try to help others.
---Samuel on 4/13/10


Apostolic which Is the teachings of the Apostles. Beginning with Apostle Peter delivering Acts 2 v 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20 to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost. Apostle Paul was brought into & saved with The Same Light, even the others.

The Man-mades, beginning with the rcc then her offspring churches came later. 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, the devil being like the pied-piper playing his deceiving tunes of the Man-made salvation plans, once saved always saved, no works salvation, the sinners prayer, easy believism etc. There's No scriptural basis for these Man-made salvations. The devil, like the pied-piper sure has people believing there is.
---Lawrence on 4/13/10


It is "every true believing Christian on this planet". Together believers form the "Bride of Christ" which is the Church.
---jody on 4/13/10


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