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Did Judas Lose His Salvation

Did Judas fall from salvation or did he fall from apostleship?

Moderator - Both.

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 ---catherine on 4/24/10
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'if'... the word is 'if'
---micha9344 on 5/6/10


Francis, many have been inlighten and stopped following Christ. They never made a true confession of faith or else they would have continued.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manisfest, that none of them were of us"
Do you understand this passage? They were not of us because they didn't continue. They left that they might be made manisfest that none of them were of us. They were never saved.
---MarkV. on 5/6/10


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once ENLIGHTENED, and have tasted of the HEAVENLY GIFT gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the GOOD WORD OF GOD, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall FALL AWAY to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

these people were ENLIGHTENED, they tasted of the HEAVENLY GIFT ( SALVATION BY FAITH) they had the HOLY GHOST, and yet they FELL AEWAY.

People can always change thier mins.
---francis on 5/6/10


2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica, Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.


Here we have men who were fellowservant in the faith, and evangelist with Paul turning away from the faith.
---FRANCIS on 5/6/10


1 Samuel 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 18:12 And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.


Saul was the lord's anointed.
Why will he not be saved?

Because he DISOBEYED and would not repent. And that can happen to anyone at anytime
---francis on 5/6/10




The Idea that once a person has been born again they no longer have a choice to be lost is found in Calvanism but not in scripture. Many take the Scriptures that give assurance to the faithful and annouce the faithless if they once said the right words are saved forever and will be forced by GOD to live in heaven against their will.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So a person who hates the Commandments of GOD yet still says they are saved by this passages is a liar. Like Judas they betray JESUS.
---Samuel on 5/6/10


Nana, you always put passages down, yet none show that a person was reborn, and lost his salvation. Instead of finding passages that seem to imply, find those that are explicit. If you notice what Jesus says you will know that what genuine believers receive the lost do not receive. When God gives light to His Word none believers come to Christ. Without the light they stay lost.

Christians should already know the mysteries of the Kingdom, so parables are given to the lost so they may not understand them.
"And He said, 'To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, and Hearing they may not understand" Luke 8:10.
---MarkV. on 5/6/10


Judas is referred to as the "son of Perdition". He is in Hell as we speak.
---Gordon on 5/6/10


Judas was never saved!
---catherine on 5/6/10

your concept of saved is not as is inthe bible.

Matthew 19:28 ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ( JESUS PROMISE INCLUDED JUDAS)

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being NOW justified by his blood, we SHALL be saved from wrath through him.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Judas DREW BACK
---francis on 5/6/10


Judas was never saved! He lost his seat as an apostle. He was replaced by another. He was a devil right from the start. He betrayed my Savior, Jesus....He was never saved, in the first place. And this ought to put an end to this great controversy. Hallelujah.
---catherine on 5/6/10




"Please, parables are for the lost."
Mark 4:13: "And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" Parables are for all.
"Does God abandon you? "
Yes, He destroyed many after having delivered them from their oppressors. John 8:29: "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
FOR US:
1 Corinthians 10:9-10: "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer."
Yes, is called 'forfeiting' the inheritance like the Menendez brothers did...
---Nana on 5/5/10


I agree MarkV, also the indwelling,exiting, and re-indwelling of the HS comes into question. The seal becomes meaningless in my opinion also.
---micha9344 on 5/5/10


I'm not so sure Judas was ever fully convinced of his salvation in Christ Jesus...in many ways, he appears to be a precursor to Saul...still attached to the ways of the world, wanting to please men.
---Elaine on 5/5/10


There is not one passage that clearly says that a person who is born of the Spirit, loses his salvation. Not a one. Oh, you can find passages that seem to imply, but not a one will say that those people were truely saved. Please, parables are for the lost.
1. what happens to his new birth when he loses salvation?
2. what happens to his eternal life he was promised?
3. Does he have to repent again in order to be save again?
4. Does he need another rebirth?
5. What sin condemns him after he is truely saved?
6. Does he lose his inheritance and then gets it back if he repents?
7. Does God lie?
8. Does God go back on His word?
9. Does God abandon you?
---MarkV. on 5/5/10


There are many Bible verses that teach that people can turn back.

Matthew 19:28
Hebrews 6:4-7
Luke 9:62
Ezekiel 18:20-27
Ezekiel 33
Hebrews 10:38
2 Timothy 4:10

And verses that say we are not saved yet:
Romasn 8: 42-25
Romans 13:11
Every text that says SHALL BE SAVED, says that this salvation is future.

So maybe what needs to be done is this: Question your pastor about these texts.
Ask him to show you in the bible where it says " once saved always saved."
Ot ask him to show you where it says that one you belive you ARE saved as opposed to SHALL be saved.


Romans 5:9 Much more then, being NOW justified by his blood, we SHALL be saved from wrath through him.
---francis on 5/4/10


Even those who have the imputed righteous of Jesus, can turn back to sin, it is as a dog returns to it's vomit.
---FRANCIS on 5/3/10

The Passage you are using from 2 Peter has in it a description of God's response to the False Teachers:

2 Peter 2:3 "and in their greed they will exploit you with false words, their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."

These False Teachers did not just fall away from faith, rather, they NEVER had it.

God has reserved their judgment from LONG AGO and knew the path that they would follow. Just as God knew the path that Judas would follow.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/4/10


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John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
---micha9344 on 5/3/10


Judas, traitor: Luke 6:16
Judas, lost: John 17:12
---micha9344 on 5/3/10

So can we agree that this was not based on anything that Jesus did, but because of Judas' own actions he gave up the promised throne in glory?

Or more specifically because Judas refused to repent from his sin, he gave up his throne in glory?
---francis on 5/3/10


Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Judas, betrayer: Mat 10:4, 26:25, 27:3, Mark 3:19, 14:10, Luke 22:48, John 6:71, 12:4, 13:2, 18:2,5.
Judas, traitor: Luke 6:16
Judas, lost: John 17:12
---micha9344 on 5/3/10


God as judge-judges the heart of men.
This includes Judas.
---char on 5/3/10
YEP

at one time, Jesus judged Judas as worthy of a throne:
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
---francis on 5/3/10


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God is God.
I believe Judas did God's will-for God's purpose.
The purpose for Christ death and resurrection was for repentance and remission.
God as judge-judges the heart of men.
This includes Judas.
---char on 5/3/10


The passages have to do with behavior, and not eternal life of a believer, but of physical death.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10

Keeping in mind that those who are righteous and those who are not will all die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The association of SIN with DIE tells us that this is eternal death and not just physical death which all will suffer.

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

This verse surely does not mean that they shall live forever as mortals. It is surely speaking of immortality eternal life.
---francis on 5/3/10


Imparted righteous can only be giving to those who have imputed righteousness.
No man can be declared righteous by his works, except he first have the imputed righteousness of Jesus.

Even those who have the imputed righteous of Jesus, can turn back to sin, it is as a dog returns to it's vomit.


2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
---FRANCIS on 5/3/10


There is the original text where God promised Judas a throne.

There there is the text in Eziekel which shows that if the righteous turn to sin they will die.

Romans says that those of us who believe, our salvationis nearer, another says that we are saved by hope, and are awaiting our salvation

Peter says that some have turned back to sin, and lose the promise of slavation.

There is the one in revelation of the church which had lost it's first love

With so many verses why do some still not believe that we can lose the promise.

Or that we are saved by hope / faith. and as long as faith or hope is part of the sentence then we do not yet have what we hope for or have faith in?
---francis on 5/3/10


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Jesus saved me from death on the cross.
He said 'It is finished'.
I pray more will come to believe and accept Christ's finishing work on the cross for their salvation.
---micha9344 on 4/30/10


MacArthur makes a good point here and there but this you are peddling as your understanding is not one of those.
Concerning eternal life, Jesus was asked (Mark, Matthew, Luke), "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
What was his repply? The passages in Ezekiel concord with Mattew 5:20: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." And concerning inputed righteousness, such concoction comes not to bear when some will be told, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity"
---Nana on 4/30/10


Francis, the passages in Eze. 33:11-15, are not speaking of righteous imputation of God. Not at all. The passages have to do with behavior, and not eternal life of a believer, but of physical death. The basic principles of God's dealing with Israel is presented here. Judgment is according to personal faith and conduct. The discussion is not about eternal salvation and eternal death, but physical death in judgment for sin which, for believers could not result in eternal death. The righeous behavior in V. 15 could only characterize a true believer, who was faithfuyl from the heart. There is no distinction ade as to the matter of who is a true believer in God. There is only a discussion of the issue of behavior as a factor for physical death.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


Frances, John 6 gives us what happened to Judas as well as those who were flollowing Jesus and truned away. You see, they only wanted something....instant gratification.

Like those who truned away, Judas is given as the example if you read to the end of the Chapter. They all had their faith in the WRONG KINGDOM. Just as Judas thought Jesus came to reign and rule then over-throwing Rome, so did those who followed and turned away.

The Kingdom WE enter is not of this world, and comes as we identify in Jesus death and resurrection life AKA eating my flesh and drinking my blood! THAT'S what separates the real from the false!
---kathr4453 on 4/30/10


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The doctrine that once you accept Jesus as Lord and savour, you are instantly saved is wrong.

Salvation is a future event.
We claim it now by faith, that we will be saved.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


Salvation nearer? that indicates that we do not yet actually have it.


Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

And with patients we await the blessed hope: Our salvation.
Meanwhile, we claim it by faith.
---francis on 4/30/10


I know some here do not value the Old Testament. But I believe the entire Bible is valid for doctrine.

Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

The New Testament says:Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
---Samuel on 4/28/10

The doctrine that people can change thier minds is well stated by Samuel: The righteous will die if they turn to sin.

The bible calls them RIGHTEOUS meaning they at one time was in right standing with God in heart and deed.
---francis on 4/30/10


Francis, if a person turns from Christianity to Buddism, he was never saved to began with. For if he was truely saved by the Spirit he would abide in Christ, Abide means to remain.
Hebrews 10:38 is speaking to all the Hebrews, those who were saved and those who were not, and the passage is meant for those who were not saved for verse 39 states,
"But "we" are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"
The one's who drew back were not saved, otherwise they would be of the group of "We" are not of those who draw back.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


I know some here do not value the Old Testament. But I believe the entire Bible is valid for doctrine.

Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

The New Testament says:Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
---Samuel on 4/28/10

You know, i could not say it any better.
AMEN!
---francis on 4/28/10


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Amen again, Samuel!
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


What if you decide that you are no longer interested in christianity and turn to buddism, will you be saved?
---francis on 4/28/10

Does this verse mean anything to you:

Heb 12:5-6 "and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM, FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES"

I believe He would discipline you back.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/10


Then, christianity would just be another religion to you and you weren't saved to begin with. Buddhism, being a religion, not a relationship with the Creator, would not save you either.
---MIchael on 4/28/10


I know some here do not value the Old Testament. But I believe the entire Bible is valid for doctrine.

Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

The New Testament says:Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
---Samuel on 4/28/10


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What if you decide that you are no longer interested in christianity and turn to buddism, will you be saved?
---francis on 4/28/10


God promised judas a throne on which he was to sit, and judge israel.
Which would mean that Judas was promised salvation.
There is no way he would have had the throne if he was not saved.


Obvioulsy something happened from the time that Jesus made the promise to judas, and the dath of Judas.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Salvation remains a future event.
Ask your self, what are you saved from?
Eternal death?
Well the time of eternal death has not yet come, when it comes IF YOU ENDURE TO THE END you shall be saved from it.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
---francis on 4/28/10


God has promised us salvation, can we through our betrail give it up just as judas did his throne?
---francis on 4/27/10

God promised the WORLD salvation. Many are called...

Can you fall away from salvation? No.

Here is my reasoning. If you repent and call on the name of the Lord to be saved, afterwards you mature and bear fruit, only then are are truly His child and not before. Even though you may say the "sinners prayer", I believe you are not a child of God until you bear fruit.

Once you are a child of God, you are kept by God and will obtain salvation on the day of judgment. Even though you may stumble along the way, God will keep you.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/10


francis, as said on this blog over and over again, it's not the same.. We are sealed, He was not. We have the eternal Spirit as our guide, He did not.
Judas was never saved/lost his salvation based on several verses-17 nays
Judas was saved based on one verse- 1 yea
Do not judge- 1 maybe
---MIchael on 4/27/10


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Judas may have been promised a throne but he certainly gave ALL that up when he betrayed Jesus.

---Mark_Eaton on 4/27/10

Good.
God has promised us salvation, can we through our betrail give it up just as judas did his throne?
---francis on 4/27/10


The plan of salvation IS not complete until
the final judgment. ( hebrew 8, 9 and 10)
The plan included jesus dying for our sins, and then cleansing the heavenly sanctuary.

Those who died BEFORE Jesus, accepted the plan by faith, just as we today do.
By faith they sacrificed and looked forward to the death of christ,and the judgment.
By faith we look back to the cross, and forward to judgment.

If at anytime anyone who has accepted christ should turn away, and go on to unrepented sin, he will not be saved unless he repents.

Judas could have repented and kept his throine.

If we like judas refuse to repent, when judgment comes, we will not be covered by the blood.
---francis on 4/27/10


Also, don't you believe that the millenial reign of Jesus is in heaven? Is Judas then to be sitting and ruling in heaven? I think not.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/27/10

No, judas will not reign as a judge, because gave up his throne in heaven to rule AS A JUDGE.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
---francis on 4/27/10


Francis, you assume everything. That a person is save and then loses his salvation. No where did is say Judas was saved. He didn't follow Christ all the way, he betrayed Him. He didn't abide in Christ, remain with Him. How could he be one of the ones in heaven? The passage in Matthew does not allow him to be one that follows Him. Peter points out that they had already followed Him, but Christ told them of the times of restoration of all things which God had spoken through the mouths of all the prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21). Juda's didn't follow all the way. Only those answered the "who then can be save" Abide is to remain with Him.
---MarkV. on 4/27/10


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Does the text say that Judas would be the one to betray Jesus?
How does this relate to the 12 thones?
When Jesus said you will sit of 12 thrones judging israel, who were he referring to that whould sit on these 12 thrones?
---francis on 4/27/10

Your twelve throne issue is a red herring.

I tend to agree with those who have said that the Plan of Salvation was not complete and that Judas Iscariot was NEVER saved.

Judas may have been promised a throne but he certainly gave ALL that up when he betrayed Jesus.

Also, don't you believe that the millenial reign of Jesus is in heaven? Is Judas then to be sitting and ruling in heaven? I think not.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/27/10


The problem with making GOD cause all things to happen. Means He causes men to sin and hurt others. That GOD is the author of evil. That Satan was only doing what GOD made him do.

This transfers the responsiblity for sin from us to GOD. The same thing Adam and Eve tried to do when caught in the garden of eden.

I am a sinner because I choose to sin. Not because GOD forced me. I am a christians because when GOD called me as He calls everyone I responded.
---Samuel on 4/27/10


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Was one of these thrones for Judas?
---francis on 4/27/10


---francis according to your logic the devil(Judas)(reference John 6:70) will be sitting on one of the 12 thrones in heaven and judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Isn't that an outrageous and ridiculous idea?
---mima on 4/25/10


When jesus promised that they would sit on 12 thrones judging israel, was not one of these thrones the throne of Judas?

If one of the thrones was for judas, what happened so cause him not to keep it?

And what does that tell us about " losing" salvation?
---francis on 4/27/10


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Nowhere in your text does it inplicate judas as the one who must betray jesus. It surely did not have to be judas.
---FRANCIS on 4/25/10

This argument is the same reason you cannot understand this verse:

Rom 9:13 "Just as it is written, 'JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED'.

Does God not foreknow us?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/26/10

Does the text say that Judas would be the one to betray Jesus?
How does this relate to the 12 thones?
When Jesus said you will sit of 12 thrones judging israel, who were he referring to that whould sit on these 12 thrones?
---francis on 4/27/10


.. Jonah when you see him, as he certainly seemed to be unwilling to do what God wanted him to do. God sent a storm and a "big fish" to make Jonah do what he didn't want to do. God has control over all humans and CAN make us do anything He wants us to do. He prefers us to chose to do His will out of love and obedience for/to Him, but, He will use His Omni-potence to make things happen. .. God is SOVEREIGN and that means His will WILL be done.
---tommy3007 on 4/27/10

God is Sovereign BUT..
God sent those things to teach Jonah. Jonah could have still NOT submitted to God if he wanted. Jonah submitted to God's will because he was tired of being "whipped" by God.
Stop being double toungued.
---miche3754 on 4/27/10


Is Judas the only man who has done satan's bidding? Whose bidding a sinner follows? I dare not trow a rock at Judas. Who knows, maybe he was Osas and you like minded might get to see him again...
after all, you do say that no matter what you do (or don't do) you are still saved and only per chance only lose perks?
---Nana on 4/27/10


I do not believe the Bible portrays humans as being forced by GOD to do anything, GOD gave human beings free will and we are responsible for your choices because we have free will.
---Samuel on 4/26/10

You MIGHT want to talk to Jonah when you see him, as he certainly seemed to be unwilling to do what God wanted him to do. God sent a storm and a "big fish" to make Jonah do what he didn't want to do. God has control over all humans and CAN make us do anything He wants us to do. He prefers us to chose to do His will out of love and obedience for/to Him, but, He will use His Omni-potence to make things happen. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some folk, but, God is SOVEREIGN and that means His will WILL be done.
---tommy3007 on 4/27/10


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"There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there's no evidence whatsoever"

There is no evidence that any of them were saved before the plan of salvation was completed. They were believers at that time not saved.

Now, when the Holy Spirit blew in after the Resurrection, that is a different story.
---aka_joseph on 4/26/10


In studying I have come to an conclusion, just as I have already maintained, he was an unsaved christian worker. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him, because Jesus is God in the flesh and now He is the Person of God, and God knew and knows everything about everything, including people....Noone really knows why Judas betrayed Jesus, but, some believes Judas was hoping that Jesus would use His powers and overthrow the Roman government. Or Judas might've been upset because Jesus went around healing people on the Sabbath. To name only a couple.
---catherine on 4/26/10


Nowhere in your text does it inplicate judas as the one who must betray jesus. It surely did not have to be judas.
---FRANCIS on 4/25/10

This argument is the same reason you cannot understand this verse:

Rom 9:13 "Just as it is written, 'JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED'.

Does God not foreknow us?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/26/10


Judas was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn't. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever heard. He was a man totally dominated by greed. There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there's no evidence whatsoever. " One of you is a devil" said Jesus. And again Jesus said, "it is better for that man if he'd never been born" And when he died it say's "he went to his what? "His own place."
No, I don't believe judas was saved, he is even called the son of perdition.
---MarkV. on 4/26/10


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I do not believe the Bible portrays humans as being forced by GOD to do anything, GOD gave human beings free will and we are responsible for your choices because we have free will.
---Samuel on 4/26/10


You can't lose something you never had.
---michael_e on 4/26/10


This for you, FRANCIS: Luke 9: Then he called his TWELVE disciples together, and gave them power and authority over ALL devils..., and he sent them to preach the kingdom of God...and THEY departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel...

Mat 12 "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself, how shall then his kingdom stand?"

However, If one argues that the thief on the cross could not be saved until Jesus died and resurrected, then why do any of the 12 Apostles get a pass? Just because they hung with Jesus, does that mean any of them was saved yet?
---aka_joseph on 4/26/10


Nowhere in your text does it inplicate judas as the one who must betray jesus. It surely did not have to be judas.-FRANCIS on 4/25/10
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Acts 1:25-26 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
---MIchael on 4/25/10


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The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

---francis can you not see how ridiculous your argument that Judas was saved is?
---mima on 4/25/10


hhmm now i wonder who that 12 th throne was for.
and which 12 people he was speaking to at that time?

Yes that 12 throne ws for Judas, and judas did not have to betray jesus,


Nowhere in your text does it inplicate judas as the one who must betray jesus. It surely did not have to be judas.
---FRANCIS on 4/25/10


Acts 1:20 quotes Psalm 109:8 as the basis for electing another person to fill the place vacated by Judas "let another take his office". When the 11 remaining apostles cast lots for Judas replacement, "the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles [Acts 1:26].
---catherine on 4/25/10


---francis, here's what Jesus said about Judas in Mark 14:21

" The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

---francis can you not see how ridiculous your argument that Judas was saved is?
---mima on 4/25/10


Clarification. Judas was not saved and didn't fall from apostleship. Sorry, for being short answered above.
---Moderator on 4/25/10


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---francis according to your logic the devil(Judas)(reference John 6:70) will be sitting on one of the 12 thrones in heaven and judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Isn't that an outrageous and ridiculous idea?
---mima on 4/25/10


Moderator, A-men.
---Eloy on 4/25/10


For those who think a person can lose their salvation, read the parable of the wheat and tares in Matt. 13:24-30. The tares here are weeds, when they start growing they look exactly like wheat, but when they mature they do not have the same fruit as the wheat. As has been pointed out in Matt. 7:22-23, many will do works "similar" to christian fruits, but their motivation and "source" are entirely different from a true christian's motivation and source. That's why Jesus told them to depart from Me for I never knew you. That is also why we are told by the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith..."
---tommy3007 on 4/25/10


Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

One of these thrones was for Judas, Because he was talking to his 12 disciples.

So,was Judas saved and then lost his salvation?

No one is saved yet. We claim it by faith, and like Judas, we can change our mind by words or works.
---francis on 4/24/10


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Nothing I know about Judas leads me to think he ever WAS saved. Not only did he mismanage funds entrusted to him, but also
Jesus Himself admitted, Jhn 6:70...Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Judas apparently suffered remorse when he saw that Jesus had been condemned, because he tried to return the 30 pieces of silver, throwing them down in the temple
Matt 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

But instead of seeking to find forgiveness from Jesus, he went and hanged himself.
Even the pharisees were so disgusted with this blood money, they used it for a potter's field instead of for the temple.

---Donna66 on 4/24/10


Ahhhhh, we have a smart one on here. His name is Tommy3007. Jesus said, "you will have to put the rest of it on here". So, I have to work some too. I am so excited.... Judas is a perfect example of those unsaved Christian workers mentioned by Jesus in the conclusion of the sermon on the mount. "Not everyone that saith Lord, Lord unto Me shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, in thy name have cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works". And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from Me, ye that work iniquity [Matthew 7:21-23]....
---catherine on 4/24/10


Since Jesus did say 'it would be better if he had never been born'(wording may be incorrect), that seems possible only if he lost his salvation
---peter3594 on 4/24/10


Sorry moderator, but you are wrong here. According to Scripture Judas "lost" his office of Apostle, but according to Jesus in John 6:70, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Although Judas was a part of the group that went around with Jesus and even did the same miracles as the others, he was never truly a believer.
---tommy3007 on 4/24/10


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Well he did not fall from salvation. It's impossible to fall(or lose) something you never had.

Jesus himself makes it very plain in John 6:70," Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

It should also be pointed out that the devil is a fallen angel, and a no angel can receive salvation, in fact salvation is not offered to the angels.
---mima on 4/24/10


Judas was never saved if that is what you mean by falling from Salvation. Didn't Jesus say that He had chosen 12 and one of them was a Devil? Yes He did.
This goes to prove that nothing will stand in the way of God completing His purpose. Judas was lost and still worked the purpose of God.
As far as being an Apostle, he held that position but we do not see any thing that he really did. He was also keeper of the money.
---Elder on 4/24/10


Judas being 1 of the 12 Disciples took his own life & he Is lost. When people do such, they are lost. The devil puts these ideas in peoples minds. This puts the Man-made False teachings of the once saved always saved, no works salvation, the sinners prayer which Are here Matt.15 v 9 & came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 in the lake of fire also.
---Lawrence on 4/24/10


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