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Tossed By False Doctrines

Looking at the world today along with what is written in Romans 1:18-32, Matthew 24:24 and 2 Timothy 4:3-4, would you say the people you encounter are grounded in unaltered, undistorted, and unperverted truth? Or are they tossed back and forth by every doctrine, Ephesians 4:14?

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 ---Rob on 4/25/10
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AKA Joseph, my point is Cluny, Ignatius, and probably others say we received the Books of The New Testament from some Orthodox Council of Men.

I find this to be a very hard "pill to swallow". This goes against what is written in Romans 11:34 and Isaiah 40:13-14.

For people to say we received the New Testament from some Orthodox Council of Men, this clearly goes against what is written in Ephesians 3:1-13.

If we received the New Testament from some Othodox Council of Men, what was the purpose of the Apostle Paul?
---Rob on 5/10/10


"The monastery of Cluny (in France, northwest of Lyons) was a center for the reform and spiritual renewal of Western monasticism in the tenth and eleventh centuries. It was founded in 909 under Abbot Berno, as a reformed monastery, observing the Benedictine Rule with a strictness unusual at the time. Many monasteries in Europe at that time were dominated by a nearby king or nobleman. It was intended that Cluny should be independent of all but papal jurisdiction..."

google cluny anglican early abbots

What is your point, Rob?
---aka_joseph on 5/10/10


We received the Bible as it was written.
The only thing the councils did was verify, among the hundreds of elders that were present, most of which could trace their teachings thru an elderly line back to the apostles, what books they were using and why, thus maintaining the unity in Christ.
Now, 2010AD, come people questioning their judgment without having been there and knowing exactly what was discussed.
Were they not brothers in Christ?
Do you not have faith in Christ doing a good work through them?
Do you have any fellowship and unity with followers of Christ and rely on Him to work through your and their lives?
Where is your faith?
Which books would you say are from God, historical but not inspired, or just heretical?
---micha9344 on 5/9/10


Trav, it is a very serious problem when a person believes we received the Bible in the fourth century from some Orthodox Council of Men.

Please do research on what the name "CLUNY" means and where it came from.
---Rob on 5/9/10


Trav, "CLUNY" is very far from being like the Bereans mentioned in Acts 17:11.
---Rob on 5/7/10

Well...just my personal experience, but Cluny searches scriptures daily and beyond searching original languages and their compatibility's using sum that he has learned.

Strict advocate of proper language...pointing out spelling, grammatical errors. (In which everyone of us may learn something,if nothing else, to slow down and double check).
He does not baby coddle,tickle ears...realizing (presuming) we may not have tomorrow.
While we/him/me don't agree on every thing..we are both open minded enough to leave it for witnessing facts proving....as we search out questionable subjects/topics. He sharpens my sword.
---Trav on 5/8/10




Trav, "CLUNY" is very far from being like the Bereans which are mentioned in Acts 17:11.
---Rob on 5/7/10


For many years the apostles taught the church all that God was revealing to them, and the church accepted their teachings. The church had every confidence that what the apostles taught them, was indeed the will of God. Like the prophets before them they too would die, but God had taken steps to ensure His message would always be available. The Holy Spirit guided the apostles to recored God's will in the Scriptures, and the church accepted their writings. Jesus gave the apostles the very words the Father had given Him (John 17:8) and promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide them and recall to their minds all that He had told them during His earthly ministry.
The church takes credit even for the Word of God. That is how low it has gone.
---MarkV. on 5/7/10


Both MarkV and Cluny have good points

We must be VERY careful not to take everything as either/or

YES, a large numberr of Christian matter ARE either/or - but all too often we may have two people with a different understanding of the Bible - then the best is for them to work to guide each other to the place which is most Biblical - but if they accuse each other of being hertics, the chance of the person who is making a mistake realiseng that is lower

I have been shown my errors much more ofter by people who slowly guide me than by people who accuse my of gross errors
---peter3594 on 5/7/10


Even though it takes time, it does pay to study and do research.
Has anyone ever done research on what the name "CLUNY" means?
Doing this will help a person understand what the Cluny on this site is really about.
---Rob on 5/6/10

"Cluny"...I'm guessing here....but, Berean comes to mind.
---Trav on 5/7/10


Even though it takes time, it does pay to study and do research.

Has anyone ever done research on what the name "CLUNY" means?

Doing this will help a person understand what the Cluny on this site is really about.
---Rob on 5/6/10




Cluny 2: Had to post this again,
In addition, Jesus was able to make clear distinction between what Scripture teaches and what religious tradition teaches. He said, "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men" You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions" This people nullify the word of God by their own traditions just as the church has done through the centuries. Adding their own traditions and call it the Word of God. The Sudducees made the same mistake when Jesus said, "you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God" Matt. 22:29.
---MarkV. on 5/6/10


Ruben, 2 Thess: How will we church with Him (2:1)?
By rejecting word not of him (2:2), or the mind will be troubled. Both sender and receivers were set apart for this purpose (2:13), or does God rely on men? So 2:15 might rephrase: "Whichever way our message/ instruction/ teaching reached you, whether directly or through the grapevine, hold to it". At 3:6 Paul cautions us to withdraw from those who don't adhere to the word he sent. And Paul left no doubt as to who holds authority over these traditions at 3:14 - obey this epistle - which presupposes that you are obeying all that precedes or derives from it. To have the opening that you desire for an institution of men simply undermines the Church of God.
---John_II on 5/6/10


I think MarkV is right on. Let me add some thoughts on who canonized the Bible. Here's an illustration. Did Galileo make the earth revolve around the sun, or did he discover that it was so? In similar fashion, Holy Tradition discovered the canon, it did not make it so.
As I recall, part of the system used to "canonize" the Bible was to gather many leaders and ask them which scriptures were being used and already accepted as from God.
---Rod4Him on 5/6/10


Cluny: I take it you mean the Bible as defined at Nicea?

We must, of course, take it that the people who picked the books were gouided by God, as they were guided to prepare the Creed

Thus, as I take it you also assume, we should take traditions and teachings that do not go against the Bible..... after all, we cannot expect to fully understand eveything in the Bible

PS - there is also another blog about meanings of things in the Bible, recently intorduced - the two blogs may actually be dealing with the same matter
---peter3594 on 5/6/10


Most people are trying to get away from doctrine and sound Bible teaching. Opting for nondenominational churches that teach JESUS lite for everyone.

There are many doctrines tossed around but the majority actually do not care. In some churches you can find people who do not agree on doctrine but since it is never taught they can still attend the same churches.

The scripture is true many doctrines are taught by many groups. Especially by ministers who get rich promising others they will get rich quick.
---Samuel on 5/6/10


For one thing, the traditions in II Thess. is talking about behavior. In verse 3:6, Paul says "keep aloof from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you recieved from us." The next verse further explains that "you ought to follow our example...not an undisciplined life...we did not eat anyone's bread without paying for it...working day and night..as a model for you, that you might follow our example."

I don't think it refers to the churches after Paul. I think it refers to how believers are to act. Not what they are to believe.
---Rod4Him on 5/6/10


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Cluny, there is a big difference between the traditions Paul talked about and the traditions the religious Church's teaches after the Bible was put together. The time the Universal Church put the Bible together inspired by the Holy Spirit was when the church accepted the Bible as the Truth of God's Word. The Church did not make the Bible truth but accepted what was already Truth.
The Old Testament Scriptures were endorsed as been the authentic Word of God by Jesus Christ. After the resurrection Jesus met with the disciples and told them everything that had been written about Him in the Scriptures: Beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, what was said concerning Himself" Luke 24:27. There was already sacred Scriptures.
---MarkV. on 5/6/10


\\This is an example of scripture being changed. Paul said in II Thess to keep the traditions he taught, and now "the church," [which "church?] says to keep their traditions.\\

The Church that put the Bible together to start with.

You don't think it refers to those so-called churches that came AFTER the Bible, do you?
---Cluny on 5/6/10


//"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church,//

This is an example of scripture being changed. Paul said in II Thess to keep the traditions he taught, and now "the church," [which "church?] says to keep their traditions. I get a bit confused because I get reminded that Tradition is supposed to be singular,but Cyril of Jerusalem says to keep the traditions, plural, and what are these? Thess says be careful.

However, the Bible already says to "hid thy Word in my heart...." I am so busy doing that that I don't have time to learn "the churches" tradition, though I am working on what the issues are about.
---Rod4Him on 5/4/10


What were the "traditions (plural here)" in II Thess 3:15 that Paul taught?

The challenge with scripture is whether we believe it or not.
---Rod4Him on 5/3/10


"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures....Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye now receive, and write them and the table of your heart." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 (A.D. 350).
---Ruben on 5/4/10


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Ruben, the trouble I have with Holy Tradition and Scripture is that many times it appears that Holy Tradition supercedes the clear understanding of scripture. The Tradition seems similar to JW's teachings, Mormons, and such in that they have some kind of "insight/deeper meanings" different than the apparent clear reading of Scripture.

The way I read/study scripture is like most any other academic book. Study the culture, context, history of the setting, author, and evalutate its meaning or application.

What were the "traditions (plural here)" in II Thess 3:15 that Paul taught?

The challenge with scripture is whether we believe it or not.
---Rod4Him on 5/3/10


John II, Rebun, which is it, scripture or Holy Tradition? make up your minds because you won't find your interpretation from scripture.

---Rod4Him on 4/29/10

It's both:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thess 2:15)

Tell me again why your interpretation of scripture is correct?
---Ruben on 5/3/10


John 2, I understand your arguments very clearly. A lot of the Scriptures imply something and are not directly implicit as fact, and we have to say what you say, "seems to me," because it implies something in the passages. Parables, metaphors and aligores implies something and the reason many have different results. I believe when we stays with one argument at a time things could be worked out. It is when people like David, who do not believe that Jesus is God, and throw many arguments at a time to kind of lose you in all the talk, that makes it difficult to answer one passage at a time by its context. It is a great feeling to discuss the Word of God but by using the context of each passage to come out with the real Truth.
---MarkV. on 5/3/10


John II, I would have dropped this and maybe I should have, but you asked how my heart is now. So, I thought you deserved an answer.

My heart is great with the Lord, but sorry that you seem to think the worst of people. My heart is sorry that you react and then accuse me of the offense. I acknowledged where I could have paid more attention to what you said or didn't say, but to no avail. I apologize now for being cynical in one of the replys.

BTW, the face to face suggestion was because more words can be said. Frankly, I "assumed," no shouting, that people like to discuss Godly things in a mature manner. This is limited to 125. That is challenging, consiceness without offense is a virture here.

Good day to you.
---Rod4Him on 5/1/10


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Rod4Him, where you've twice shouted 'ASSUME' you should have noticed the keywords 'probable' and 'seems', so I assumed nothing. You assumed that I went to school - I know what was implied - but this is evidently dialogue of some intellect which attests to some schooling (you really should look at you own posts before your use these comments as leverage). And if you say that your offensiveness is not intentional, does this make it right? You warn me to be careful by the authority of your own words, isn't this self-righteousness! You want to face-up so you can make me see it your way by bluntness of some way, shape or form? You're not the only one to have had it tough in the world and are now in the ranks of Jesus. So how is your heart now?
---John_II on 5/1/10


John II, be careful not to impose your own attitudes onto someone else.

I live in Northern California, and I would be happy to meet you somewhere where in a face to face exchange which is more condusive to an exchange of ideas.

I do tend to be blunt, my offensiveness is not intended. However, I am trying to point out with "I assume you all went to school" that there are basic concepts of "what is the context, what does it say, and what are the possible conclusions?

I do get extra blunt when someone imposes onto scripture an idea that just isn't there.

BTW, you have come to your own conclusion that it was not due to disobedience/deception which is more likely. Ananias.
---Rod4Him on 4/30/10


John II, God judges the heart and its motives. A life with God is not a list of rules. When someone reduces a relationship with God to rules, I react, perhaps a bit strong. Rules for rules sake is false teaching.

God was going to kill the Israelite community for grumbling, but Moses pled with God.
God was going to kill Moses because Moses was disobedient and had not circumcised his son.
God killed Korah and his men because they treated the Lord with contempt.
Achan like Ananias hid silver and gold and was killed.
Aarons sons died because of disobedience.
And list goes on. God judges actions of the heart, not a list of dos and don'ts.
In general, religion makes a supposed life with God a list of dos and don'ts.
---Rod4Him on 4/30/10


The problem we also have is if the church people attend actually does teach true scripture(toherwise the bible itself w/o adding or making a big production) sometimes the people don't want to hear the truth because it touches peoples nerves because they donot want correction. they go to the other "feel good"churches where as the show "Cheers" says,"everyone knows your name....." Sorry but scripture isn't suppose to be fun, we are suppose to be learning it & yes God does rebuke/discipline us when neccessary.
---blessedsister on 4/30/10


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John II, perhaps if you had made your last presentation first, I could have followed it better, or perhaps it's me reacting to "legalism". But to ASSUME Proverbs directly relates to Onan is a stretch. You also made a statement ASSUMED as fact that Onan's "action" was way over the mark. I could have looked up your reference to the son in Matt, I didn't, but didn't see a correlation to Onan. And I didn't understand your one-sandalled man as it applied to Onan. Sorry. Still don't.

Your last relied made more sense to me. Yes, it was either Onan's attitude/deception/disobedience or specific action. The first makes more sense as God is more concerned with the heart motives rather than specific dos and don'ts.
---Rod4Him on 4/30/10


Rod4Him, John II--

Jesus said that if your brother sins against you and repents, to forgive him.

He did NOT authorize anyone to judge of the apology were sincere. Therefore, it should be accepted at face value.

I think BOTH of you should apologize to each other, and each should accept the other's apology.
---Cluny on 4/30/10


Rod4Him, but you did intend to offend, and your apologies are insincere, are they not? Be truthful! You haven't held back with lines: "I assume you all went to school", this since I questioned your insistence that others hadn't accepted what you accept as exegesis. The thing could be attributed to either his disobedience or his spillages. The former is unlikely as many more passages would end this way. Now something that could displease a Holy God is the latter - otherwise it wouldn't even get a mention. I tried to give you what you asked for, if it didn't make sense to you then how come you passed judgement on it? Maybe if you were more open to discussion then you might understand the counter-arguement, even of it's wrong!
---John_II on 4/30/10


John II, no offense intended, but you sound like a used car salesman. Proverbs says this, therefore Er did that, and it's probable that he did this, and it seems Onan did wrong and had his own agenda, and Ananias also altered his agreement. Therefore, since God is conderned about the one-sandalled men, natural contraception is wrong.

From a very expensive lesson I learned in life, if it doesn't make sense, don't buy it.

Sorry, I don't buy it.
---Rod4Him on 4/30/10


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Rod4Him, Proverbs speaks of the wicked man being taken out without remedy, it happened to Er. Now Judah was no saint in his younger years and it seems his parenthood wasn't that great neither. Er was wicked and it's quite probable that Onan was too, seems his seed spilling took him way over the mark. Onan was like the son in the parable [Matt 21:28] who said he would but had his own agenda. Ananias had altered his agreement also which draws the parallel. They both did have the freewill not to enter into their respective deals, but they did enter to get something out of it, and in doing so defrauded the Lord. So, is God concerned about one-sandalled men or about them treating His intercourse design for humans with perversion?
---John_II on 4/30/10


Steven G, you said,
"MarkV: "Ignatius, MarkV, Satan has had two thousand years of infiltrating the Christ's church and make subtle changes neccessary to deceive the world"
The world is deceived, but only because it is a fallen world. And that comes through the curse. They are deceived, sinful and lost and are heading to hell already. Scripture tells us that fallen man is so fallen so to be at enmity with God, that enmity must be removed before he can have any desire to do God's will. They already do the will of their father the devil.
But the real Church of Christ or the elect, they cannot be deceive. So all those you mentioned were already deceived because they are lost.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


StrongAxe, did Onan really "agree" to marry Tamar? The text clearly states that Judah ordered him to go into her. The text makes it clear that he was reluctant on at least one count. Apparently Tamar was quite fetching, he obviously beheld her as desirable as he went into her time after time, but he didn't want to have a child with her. Quite the pattern isn't it? So his contrivance to misuse that which is sacred by God brought instant repugnance and judgement for all to witness. The bible has a Way of pooh-poohing the ideal notions of men. Also, if every hardship caused by man's selfish actions, and the promises he breaks, had him dispatched by God...well, who can work that out?
---John_II on 4/30/10


John_II:

What made Onan's actions heinous was NOT that he refused a duty (i.e. marrying his brother's widow to sire a child for him). He could have said "no thanks" and let another kinsman do it. He AGREED to (by marrying her), and then reneged on his promise (and made it impossible for her to marry anyone else).

In effect, he used a law whose specific purpose was to ensure the propagation of his brother's line, and used it to ensure the exact opposite.

While the Bible nowhere else mentions Onan's specific act of "onanism" (so it's hard to derive any doctrine from this), it frequently mentions the seriousness of covenants, and evil of those who enter into them, and subsequently break them.
---StrongAxe on 4/29/10


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John II, Rebun, which is it, scripture or Holy Tradition? make up your minds because you won't find your interpretation from scripture.

So, using your same arguments with Ananias, God has great displeasure with selling property and keeping some of the money.

Using your system of interpretation, one will never know what scriptures says. The interpretation will be up to "The Church." So, we can just throw all our Bibles away and listen to "the Bishop."

I assume you all went to school, if you read books the way you read the Bible, you won't know anything. Sorry for the bluntness, but just admit you get your belief not from the Bible.
---Rod4Him on 4/29/10


About the curious story of Onan and levirate marriage.

Remember that in those days, there were no widow's pensions, social security, or survivors' benefits.

To be widowed and childless was not only a sorrow, but a calamity, especially for women who under these circumstances had no children to help provide for them.

THIS is why it was the duty of a surviving brother (as understood at the time) to impregnate a dead brother's childless widow. Any child thus conceived, especially a son, would be considered the dead man's son--and would have the obligation to support his widowed mother.
---Cluny on 4/29/10


Rod4Him, did it really displease God because a man didn't want to dutifully sire a child for his brother - which Judah told him to go and fulfil? Surely our God understands why a man would begrudge this duty! But the thing that he did (what thing? That detestable thing that need not be mentioned twice) caused revulsion. Why doesn't the text simply read that God killed both Er and Onan for being wicked? Why does it extend on Onan's wickedness and not Er's? Because God wanted us to know why Onan chose to spill his seed on the ground. So, it's not a law but it shows us God's character by His great displeasure at coitus interruptus (it's noticeable how people warm to it better in Latin than by using the common term 'withdrawal').
---John_II on 4/29/10


Rod4Him * Rebun,Yes, I lean very strong to sola scriptura.

If you had said you believe what you believe because "The Church" told you what to believe, OK. But you used scripture incorrectly for your teaching. Same old medival church teachings, "believe the church, "

First, with scripture! Where in scripture does it tells us that the Bible is the final authorithy? I believe in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture as the Bible says so!

Secondly, How do you know your interpretation of scripture is the correct one, and yet another one who is infallible! The Bible tells us that the church is the pillar and bulwark in truth(1 Tim 3:15)
---Ruben on 4/29/10


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Rebun, I am curious, where did you research?

Yes, I lean very strong to sola scriptura.

If you had said you believe what you believe because "The Church" told you what to believe, OK. But you used scripture incorrectly for your teaching. Same old medival church teachings, "believe the church, you can't understand, pay your indugences, pay homage, etc, to "The Church."

From Ananias, do you believe that it is wrong to sell land and keep some of the money? According to your rational, it is wrong to sell land and keep some money, after all, God killed Ananias for doing that.
---Rod4Him on 4/29/10


John II, Ruben, I got it. I just researched your teaching. It comes from the Roman Catholic Church. Ok, I know where you are coming from.

It's the classic eisegess system. One learns a teaching, and then reads into a passage the preconceived teaching. Got it.

BTW, many people died in the Bible for disobedience. Ananias was an example of purposeful deception and was killed.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10

And I did some research myself on your teaching. It also a classic system call 'Sola Scriptura' invented in the 15th Century by Martin Luther.

Yes many died for disobedience But Onan was killed for wasting seed.
---Ruben on 4/29/10


What is also interesting of the story of Tamar, Onan,and Judah is that Jesus had to come through that line. Since Er and Onan did not do the deed, Judah unknowingly fulfilled the line of Judah.

The messiah had to come through Judah, maybe that's a part of the reason of God's judgement to Onan, Judah had no more sons.

It's also an incredible story because it reveals why Judah would be sensitivity to Joseph's life when the brothers threw Joseph in a pit, and Judah's sensitivity to Benjamin in Egypt. Judah was aware of his own failings.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10


\\You do not die because you were disobedience, just look at Judah who rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage,(Gen 38:11-26) he was not killed.\\

As a matter of fact, Judah DID keep up the family lineage by impregnating his daughter-in-law, whom he took for a prostitute.

Tamar and her son Perez become the subjects of a very strange blessing at the end of Ruth.
---Cluny on 4/28/10


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MarkV: "Steven G, I know you are against any kind of teaching from anyone, that is clear. So you say,.."

There are a few people in the world who is taught from the Holy Spirit.

Ignatius, MarkV, Satan has had two thousand years of infiltrating the Christ's church and make subtle changes neccessary to deceive the world. Christian teachers today have watered down the gospel that it is almost impossible to find the truth. They have polluted the gospel with the culture they live. You two are so blinded by Satan that you think all is right in christiandom. Well, it isn't. Christians do not recognize that we are living in the end times and if you have any true knowledge pf prophesy, well, figure it out.
---Steveng on 4/28/10


As I wrote previously, if a christian does not have a solid foundation in the Word of God, meaning the whole bible, then he can be tossed back and forth by any doctrine that "sounds" right. I've been in hundreds of denominational churches over the past forty years and presided over dozens of services. There is one in particular I remember. It was a week before Easter a few years back where the pastor had an unexpected call to another state - Washington if I remember. Everyone was expecting an Easter sermon as they have been learning every year for the past seventy years, but the Holy Spirit put words into my mouth to talk about what was going on in the church - pride and backstabbing. (to be continued)
---Steveng on 4/28/10


(continued) There was not the usual rituals during that sermon. No standing and sitting. No praying and singing of the hymns. The next day, the elders asked me to leave the church and not return.

The pastor and I crossed paths a year later, a week before the Holy Spirit lead me to Michigan, and decided to have a chat at a nearby cafe. He confided in me that he knew what was going on in the church, but his hands were tied because he had to conform to the Lurtheran sermons about Easter. He said that people's attitudes changed for a couple of months, but things slowly went back to the normal pride and backstabbing. My heart sank that day.

This is what is happening all over the world today. Love has surely waxed cold.
---Steveng on 4/28/10


John II, Ruben, I got it. I just researched your teaching. It comes from the Roman Catholic Church. Ok, I know where you are coming from.

It's the classic eisegess system. One learns a teaching, and then reads into a passage the preconceived teaching. Got it.

BTW, many people died in the Bible for disobedience. Ananias was an example of purposeful deception and was killed.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10


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If you are going to teach anti-contraception by this passage, you have to teach that a young brother must marry the wife of a dead brother. You can't pick and choose.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10


Rod,

You need to ask why Onan was killed by God. So please give me your infallible interpretation of scripture..So many here at this blog are infallible when it comes to scripture verses!
---Ruben on 4/28/10


If you are going to teach anti-contraception by this passage, you have to teach that a young brother must marry the wife of a dead brother.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10

fine:

"If brethren dwell together, and one of them die,... unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her."(Deu 25:5-10)

If he refuses:

"And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife...Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house"

Nothing here about DEATH!
---Ruben on 4/28/10


John II, Ruben, I assume you get your teachings from somewhere other than scripture as you both make assumptions that are not there. You use circular reasoning to come up with the answer you want. Since this means that, and that would mean this, therefore that means what I want it to mean.

Would God have killed Onam is he ran to the hills? I don't know, but you seem to know.

There may be an extra element on Onan's part of deception with Tamar, Judah, and God, but that hardly makes a blanket policy/teaching against contraception.

If you are going to teach anti-contraception by this passage, you have to teach that a young brother must marry the wife of a dead brother. You can't pick and choose.
---Rod4Him on 4/28/10


Onan refused to fulfill his duties to his brother's wife, since Er had died, and Onan was to carry on Er's family line through Er's wife, Tamar. Onan knew the family line would not be his. His selfness and disobedience was the sin. In Israel's society, if an older brother had died, the younger brother was to carry on the older brother's family line.

---Rod4Him on 4/27/10

Rod,

You do not die because you were disobedience, just look at Judah who rejected God's command to keep up the family lineage,(Gen 38:11-26) he was not killed. However Onan is killed by God for practing contraception(withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground!
---Ruben on 4/28/10


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Rod4Him, the key points are the method (withdrawal) and how it displeased the Lord. If Onan had run to the hills (so as not to make love at all to Tamar), would God have still have killed him? After all, He has great patience as the whole world baulks againsts His will. And if He killed Onan for not doing his duty, what did that accomplish as Tamar would still not conceive? God is not incapable of making things happen when it pleases Him. No, the warning is of Onan's cheap and nasty trick of preventing the siring of a child and how this method displeases our Lord. And the example was made, anyone who uses this method of contraception displeases Almighty God.

This is not the same response as disobedience.
---John_II on 4/28/10


Ruben,

Last time I checked, the Roman Catholic Church DOES allow natural forms of birth control (such as Natural Family Planning, which is quite effective), but strictly forbid any artificial birth control methods, and not to mention abortion.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/27/10

The differences of the two is NFP couples are open for conception, while the couples who use artificial bith control have no intentions of having children. Besides the Early Church Fathers were against contraception!
---Ruben on 4/28/10


Steven G, I know you are against any kind of teaching from anyone, that is clear. So you say,
Without knowing the entire Word of God from beginning to end, how would one discern what is being preached or what is written (by others) is the truth or not"
The answer is by comparing to what Scripture tells us. No matter the speaker, we can compare what they say if its true or not. Scripture interprets Scripture.
You forget God gifted many a great man to help new born again believers, in different subjects of Scripture. No one person understand the whole of Scripture. They have read it many times, but God through the Spirit has not revealed everything.
---MarkV. on 4/28/10


Steven G-

Nope. According to the Holy Bible God sent men who have teaching authority within the Apostolic Church (Acts 13:1). Saint Paul recognized teachers as gifts of God to the Church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). This authority has transfer to successors of the Holy Apostles (1 Tim. 5:22, 2 Tim. 1:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:5). These teachers are given by the Lord to help us correctly understand and obey Holy Scripture. The Early Christians was instructed through the OT and those who was given the authority to teach within the Church (cf. Acts 20:17-35.)

But since you have such a negative view on all churches, you also reject those in the Church given the authority to teach.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/27/10


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more_excellent_way: "Throwing away all the books/commentaries and other reference books in order that GOD be the only teacher is a very bold and radical move (this is how we know that we are headed in the right direction)..."

This is not a "bold and radical move." for hundreds of years, before there were concordances, before there were christian reference books, before there were books and novels galore written by opinionated authors, christians relied solely on reading Scripture - used as its own reference. Without knowing the entire Word of God from beginning to end, how would one discern what is being preached or what is written (by others) is the truth or not.
---Steveng on 4/27/10


Using the story of Onan to teach a belief of no birth control is a great mis-interpretation and application of Scripture. No wonder people have trouble knowing what to believe.

Onan refused to fulfill his duties to his brother's wife, since Er had died, and Onan was to carry on Er's family line through Er's wife, Tamar. Onan knew the family line would not be his. His selfness and disobedience was the sin. In Israel's society, if an older brother had died, the younger brother was to carry on the older brother's family line.

If one uses this passage, the teaching should be as stated above, carry on the brother's line. Do you believe that?
---Rod4Him on 4/27/10


Ruben,

Last time I checked, the Roman Catholic Church DOES allow natural forms of birth control (such as Natural Family Planning, which is quite effective), but strictly forbid any artificial birth control methods, and not to mention abortion.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/27/10


Orthodoxy never had an official teaching on contraception.

In any case, this is a pastoral matter,
---Cluny on 4/27/10

Orthodoxy may never had a official teaching on contraception but God did!

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,"(Gen 1:28)

"And Onan knew that the seed should not be his, and it came to pass,... that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

"And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also" (Gen 38:8-10)

The Orthodox Church stood one time with the Catholic Church on this matter, perhaps not having an authority figure is why it is a pastoral matter....
---Ruben on 4/27/10


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"Which doctrine are you referring to?"

From a Roman Catholic side or Protestantism?

"The Orthodox Church along with (Protestantism), has relaxed its views on contraception." (Ruben)

Orthodoxy does not have a official teaching on contraception (There is complete unanimity, however, that no form of contraception that is abortifacient is acceptable) and thus will vary from one canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction & parish to another. And as Cluny stated, this is not a doctrinal manner.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/27/10


//What I am asking is why do people sit under the teaching of others, but they never follow the command found in 2 Timothy 2:14-19 along with never following the example found in Acts 17:11.// -Rob on 4/26/10

Rob,

I have been meditating all last night. The usual things came up...tickling ears, tares, profit, self-centeredness...But, you and I know these things.

It astounds me too, but the only real answer that I can find (that encapsulates it all) is to fulfill prophecy.
---aka_joseph on 4/27/10


Most people just blindly follow their preacher or some TV evangelist. Very few get out their Bible and check for themselves with a good Concordance to help.

The problem with doing all on your own is that in reality almost every question has been asked before so you are repeating the same ground others have trod. It is best to learn not just on your own but the with the experience of others.

On this website all sides are represented. Most here have at least studied to come to their beliefs.
---Samuel on 4/27/10


\\The Orthodox Church along with (Protestantism), has relaxed its views on contraception.
---Ruben on 4/26/10\\

Orthodoxy never had an official teaching on contraception.

In any case, this is a pastoral matter, NOT a doctrinal one.
---Cluny on 4/27/10


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I would say: Sincere, but decieved for the most part. A common belief is that the pastor knows best and knows more.
People are using the pastor to tell them if what is in th ebible is right.

They should use the bible to show whether or not what the pastor is saying is true.

Example: Many pastors teach that upon death people either go to heaven, or to torment, and the bible does not teach that.
---francis on 4/27/10


Throwing away all the books/commentaries and other reference books in order that GOD be the only teacher is a very bold and radical move (this is how we know that we are headed in the right direction)...

2 Timothy 1:7
"God did not give us a spirit of TIMIDITY".

1 Corinthians 2:5
"that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God...
verse 6...among the MATURE we do impart wisdom".

The secret and HIDDEN wisdom of God is not laid out in scripture for ALL to see regardless of their pride, greed, and worldly agendas/kingdoms/desires, but it has been reserved for (verse 9)..."those who love HIM [not MAN]".
---more_excellent_way on 4/27/10


Religions are man-made. They are your denominational churches each having their own traditions, rituals, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible. Today's christians are tossed back and forth like a tsunami. And it's the advent of technology that has literally everyone voicing their own opinions.

The only way to be grounded in unaltered, undistorted, and unperverted truth is to read and meditate on the bible only - without the use of concordances, novels, opinionated authors and other christian reference books. And to trust the Holy Spirit for guidance. Today's christians make living a christian life complicated. They read everything in books, magazine articles and websites and if it SOUNDS good then it must be. Colossians 2:8-10
---Steveng on 4/26/10


Western Christianity (Roman Catholicism & Protestantism) is the prime example of those who are tossed back and forth by every doctrine.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/26/10


Which doctrine are you referring to?

The Orthodox Church along with (Protestantism), has relaxed its views on contraception.
---Ruben on 4/26/10


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aka,, What I am asking is why do people sit under the teaching of others, but they never follow the command found in 2 Timothy 2:14-19 along with never following the example found in Acts 17:11.
---Rob on 4/26/10


Donna? really means Donna!

Good job, Donna!
---aka_joseph on 4/26/10


Good job, Donna? Do you really think that people are going to answer 'yes' and 'no' to your question, Rob?

We all have a point-of-view that makes us conclude the "we" are right "grounded in unaltered, undistorted, and unperverted truth" and "they" are wrong and "tossed back and forth by every doctrine."

I am in no way trying to be disrespectful, but what are you really asking?
---aka_joseph on 4/26/10


Donna5535...Wow! Do you mean that you are the only person you know who is walking in the unpeverted truth?
---KarenD on 4/26/10


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People are tossed here and there, back and forth by their circumstances, blaming God, having a spirit of spiritual pride thinking they are walking with God and are instead blaming Him for things going wrong in their lives.

No one I know is walking in unperverted truth. And the reason I don't get along with these folks is because I tell them that and they stone me to death with false accusations and of coure they say I'm the one with a demon. They told Jesus that too and he had to go through such horrible persecution to stand and walk in truth all the time.

The word of God should not be compromised - if God said it, I believe it and I say what God says.
---Donna5535 on 4/26/10


Tossed by False doctrines, Matt.15 v 9. Which Are Man-made (2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15) beginning with the rcc, then her offspring churches, the luth, aog, presby, bapt, naz, cog, episco etc (Not in this order) came later on but which Are All here Rev.17 v's 4 - 6. There is more Man-mades relig-org's churches in the world.

Apostolic which Is the teachings of the apostles. Which started with apostle Peter delivering The salvation message from God, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20 to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost. The other apostles did the very same teaching. There is less of Jesus Christ Church of The Living God in the world. Fear ye not little flock for ye are the Fathers good pleasure.
---Lawrence on 4/26/10


Eastern Christianity has it ground in the unaltered, undistorted, and unperverted Truth. Perhaps you haven't meant any Eastern Orthodox Christian.

Western Christianity (Roman Catholicism & Protestantism) is the prime example of those who are tossed back and forth by every doctrine.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/26/10


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