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Performance Salvation

Everyone who does not believe in once saved always saved must base their salvation on their own individual performance and interpretation of scripture. If they are all different from one another than who is right?

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 ---Bob on 4/27/10
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Miche, I am so very happy there is something we do agree on. SMILE!!!
---Rob on 5/3/10


/Mk. 16:14-18 baptism a must - John said I baptize you in water, but He baptizes us with Spirit and fire. The former is profitable, the latter is a must./aka joseph

Wonderful!!!!

Rob you are very correct! Who is the one doing the perfomring? Is it you or CHRIST IN YOU, thats doing the work?
Thats a question we should ask ourselves each day.
Its not a good idea to say someone is wrong.
Its better to just say "i disagree" and show scripture as to why you disagree.
You should never tell someone they are wrong, because they may not be.
Not a single person posseses the 100% truth of God's word. Only pieces. We are here to share the piece that we have.
---miche3754 on 5/3/10


It all comes down to who is doing it.

Is a person doing things in themselves and through the "FLESH", Romans 8:1-17, or are they doing things in and through Christ, Galatians 2:20-21?
---Rob on 5/2/10


---Donna66 on 5/2/10 I know from past entries that you and I generally agree on doctrine..so I'm interested in your ideas. But I'm not looking to wade into an argument.
God bless, zero arguments

I see a more than one gospel, in the Bible.
but only one that is not perfomance based,
1 Cor 15:1-4
---michael_e on 5/2/10


Aka, I have not been a Christain for 30 years. It has been for 20. I can say you are wrong when you are wrong. If I was to say you are right when you are wrong, it would be a rediculous answer, now wouldn't it? I believe when someone speaks and they are wrong, I can say they are if I give them Scripture to proof they are. And saying they are wrong is to be curtious. It is better then saying they are false teachers, apostrates, or any other name as many say here. I am not trying to be right, I am searching for the Truth of God with a passion for Christ not for any glory to myself, so my motives are correct. And when I give the Truth, it is not up to me to convince anyone, it is up to God to bring light to that Truth if He desires to do so.
---MarkV. on 5/2/10




aka_joseph on 5/2/10 Red letters confuse me and you make everything so simple

Thank you aka, I'm just a simple old man.
---michael_e on 5/2/10


michael e --- I've read all the scriptures you gave and they are all great. I feel I understand them, but I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make. Perhaps my mind is a bit muddled with all these different blog topics. What is it you are trying to say?

I disagree with aka joseph on some points, but don't feel a need to discuss them with him right now

I know from past entries that you and I generally agree on doctrine..so I'm interested in your ideas. But I'm not looking to wade into an argument.
---Donna66 on 5/2/10


michael_e, I apologize. I thought that I was clear that I do not argue with certain people. Donna66 is not one of them. If I see something that she or others might be interested in I will let them see it.

If what you present is solid, then present it and do not worry what others think.
---aka_joseph on 5/2/10


michael_e #2

Thank you for helping me with 1 Tim 1:16 andMatt.10:5. Who was 'he' in Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.?

Red letters confuse me and you make everything so simple
---aka_joseph on 5/2/10


There are people who like to argue about doctrine of men using scriptural words. That is not me.
If you ever can make sense of 1Tim1:16 and how it applies, let me know.
1 Tim 1:16 Paul is a... pattern to them which should(when) hereafter believe on him to life everlasting (simple)

Jesus speaks of His commandments, One is Matt.10:5

Mk. 16:14-18 baptism a must to be saved.
The 12 could do no spiritual baptizing, so this must be water.

Mt. 28:16-20 vs 20 what did Jesus teach them? law
Peter apparently understood His teaching Acts 10 esp. Vs 28
---michael_e on 5/2/10




Donna66,
Mk. 16:14-18 baptism a must - John said I baptize you in water, but He baptizes us with Spirit and fire. The former is profitable, the latter is a must.

Christ was born, lived and died under Law.- and He rose again to fulfill the Law and the prophets freeing us from the impossible ability to keep the Law and the penalties forthwith.

Mt. 28:16-20 vs 20 what did Jesus teach them? law - v. 20 - but Jesus speaks of His commandments not law. He defended the disciples when they gathered some wheat for food on the Sabbath, which was a no-no under the Law.

Christ pattern? to follow the two great commandments (and everything applicable).

If you ever can make sense of 1Tim1:16 and how it applies, let me know.
---aka_joseph on 5/2/10


---Donna66 on 5/1/10
1Tim. 1:16
1Cor.4:16, 11:1
Phil.3:17
2 Thess.3:7,3:9
---michael_e on 5/2/10


Rightly dividing the Word is a good thing.
---aka_joseph on 5/1/10


Thank Heaven above, our admission to Heaven doesn't depend on our being "right". It just depends on us being saved.

The bare-boned, essential doctrine of salvation is something most Christians agree on. (although whatever accompanies it, can be a subject of much disagreement).
---Donna66 on 5/1/10


If they are all different from one another than who is right?
We can think anything we want.
But at the end of it all, the WORD of GOD RIGHTLY DIVIDED is always right
---michael_e on 5/1/10


MarkV and Kath

The funny thing about this is that we are saying the same thing, however,I notice that there are some people that will argue about every jot and tittle.

Can salt season salt?

There are some on this site that help me to understand more gospel. There are some people who know the words of the gospel who confuse the issue. I like to post things that may edify.

MarkV you claim 30 years of serving Christ, yet I see you say to alot of people "You are wrong..." I say, "well this is the way I see it..." I am not trying to be right, I am trying to cover myself with Righteousness. Therefore, I yield to you.
---aka_joseph on 4/30/10


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All Souls belong to God-they are His regardless.Ex18:4
*For the whosoever-Once the eyes are opened-you see.
The purpose of the Plan of Salvation-the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ for repentance and Remission.
The perfect offering for-sin-God's Word he swore by-and Son he sacrificed-ONCE and for ALL.

*The Elect--Truly know they cannot work for their salvation. Truly know they must solely rely on Christ and Him alone for everything.

Some are still seeking Salvation through obedience and under the law.
Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes.
Only the Holy Spirit performs.
Only He get the Glory.
Rom11:8
Deut29:4
Is 29:10
---char on 4/30/10


""I think that rebirth does not happen right at conception. It is not until we see deliverance and fruit of the Spirit that we can "claim" rebirth."

Luke 8:15: "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
2 Pet 1, "giving all diligence, add to your faith..."
"But he that lacketh these things is blind," and "hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." James 1:23-24.
"KEEP IT", how? It entails labor for which Paul said, Hebrews 12:12 "Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,..."
---Nana on 4/30/10


Miche, one of the most important things the Lord taught me was the FAITH that saved me is the exact SAME FAITH that has and is sanctifying me. In other words, God works in us THROUGH FAITH. We believe, and grow in His Word and Promises. ***2 Peter 1***


Also, God's WORD is being Wrought in us through trials and tribs.

Look up the word WROUGHT and see the definition.
---kathr4453 on 4/30/10


Miche, Interestingly when I got saved, I knew nothing initially about the sanctification process. It just Happened. WHILE it was happening, the Lord would bring me to scripture to re-assure me that this was/is God's working in me. We are to Yield, KNOW and Reckon these facts. As I read the scripture the Lord brought to me, I had peace and hope knowing the Lord was up to something.

We don't control that though. It was a very long time before I understood what dying to self meant. It wasn't until I could look back, that I could actually see How and What the Lord was/is doing. However I had FAITH that whatever it was...it was for His Glory.

I couldn't have brought myself here where I am today in my wildest imagination.
---kathr4453 on 4/30/10


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Aka, you were not speaking about a parable, you gave your opinion on rebirth. Born again. I answered to that opinion.
About the planted seed, that is a parable which is an implicit statement, that imply's something, Luke 8:11-15, the seed that "heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience" This parable is about the evidence of true salvation. "Heard" is a reference to understanding and believing (John 8:31,47), "Keep" refers to ongoing obedience (11:28, John 14:21-24), "Fruit" is good works (Matt. 7:16-20, James 2:14-26).
This is not an explicit statement but a parable.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


---MarkV. on 4/30/10
Concerning this post.

True, but they cannot receive the Holy Spirit until they repent and believe Christ is the son of God.
The Bible says that.
It says Repent and believe and then me and my father will come and make our abode in you.(John 14:23)
The bible says they will come in and sup with us(Rev. 3:20) AFTER we repent.

Markv, you can't ignore the out pouring of the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28-30, Acts 2:17-19)on all flesh to convict them of their sins when they HEAR the WORD OF GOD being spoken (Rom. 10:16-18).
This was done at the cross when Christ split the veil. Anyone who believes Christ is the Savior can be saved.
---miche3754 on 4/30/10


MarkV,

For me, your responses are just too difficult to follow. You say things that are true, but you confuse the issue by jumping around Scripture (which is a very common practice today.)

I am simply (or simplistically) looking at one parable. I can only tackle the guy with the ball and not the whole team. I said 'I think' out of humility and fear and trembling. If Jesus did not mean that seeds scattered that do not take or are choked out by weeds are not saved (like I believe), then that can only mean that scattered seeds that grow for a little while or are choked out lose their salvation.

Now, hopefully you will stick with the point of the parable and address that so we can go on.
---aka_joseph on 4/30/10


Aka Part 2:
If a sinner is to desire redemption through Christ, he must receive a new dispostion. He must be born again, and from above (John 3:3). If man is dead in sin, and we know he is, then nothing short of this supernatural life-giving power of the Holy Spirit will ever cause him to do that which is spiritually good. The devil and his demons would have to be thus sovereignly changed if they were ever to be saved, yet the innate sinful principles which move fallen man are of the same nature.
The Scriptures call this change a regeneration (Titus 3:5), a spiritual resurrection which is wrought by the same mighty power with which God wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead (Eph. 1:19,20).
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


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Kath,
You do realize we are saying the same thing but in a different way, right?

I hope so, sis.

Submit is the same thing as to yield.
Sumbit = yield = obey
ALL through/by/in Christ.

You can and do die to your flesh by and though Christ.
Please see my earlier comments on that.
It is by/through/in Christ that ALL these things happen.
---miche3754 on 4/30/10


Miche, I agree with you that when these things are manifest in you, your faith in Christ is real.

If these things are not manifest in you then one must check to make sure they are really in the faith.

We are always carrying about in our body the dying of Christ so that the life of Christ is manifest. ONLY The Lord can do this. All we do is YIELD and SURRENDER to this truth. THIS IS our obedience!
---kathr4453 on 4/30/10


Miche, The Lord works in you both to will and to do. When we receive Jesus Christ HIS SPIRIT works all these things in you. The ONLY thing I'm to do is YIELD to the Spirit as He works in me both death and resurrection life.

I can no more resurrect myself then I can have any power to die to self. It's HIS Spirit that is working in me.

We count it ALL Joy when we go through trials, KNOWING the testing of our FAITH brings maturity.

My focus is on MATURING and my faith is believing that He who has begun this GOOD WORK IN ME WILL CONTINUE it until the Day of Jesus Christ.

In all the 30 plus years I have NEVER been disappointed in the Promises of God.
---kathr4453 on 4/30/10


Aka, you say,
"I think that rebirth does not happen right at conception. It is not until we see deliverance and fruit of the Spirit that we can "claim" rebirth. Paul is a great example of one who diplays true fruit and we can see his deliverance, sanctification, and fruit."
It is a good thing that what you said is what you think. For it is not from Scripture. Man in his natural state is radically corrupt, and he can never become holy and happy through any power of his own. He is spiritually dead, and must be saved by Christ if at all. Man is so fallen in that he is at enmity against God. That enmity must be removed before he can have any desire to do God's will.
---MarkV. on 4/30/10


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Kath,

To crucify your flesh IS to die to your flesh.
It means you do not follow after the wants of your flesh.
It means that You follow that wants of GOD. It means you follow after the Holy Spirit.

This walk with God IN CHRIST is a daily walk.
You must crucify your flesh DAILY.
If a person is not doing this and letting their flesh rise, then they are still a babe in Christ and have not put on the MIND of CHRIST.

I am not sure why you are arguing with me on this when you and I have already discussed and agreed on this particular subject.
---miche3754 on 4/30/10


Also, Kath,
It was through his actions that all died.
We followed those actions.

I know I am righteous because CHRIST makes me righteous. To die to the flesh means what Kath?
---miche3754 on 4/29/10

miche, I can't die to my flesh.

Romans 6 state DON'T YOU KNOW. the fact is, when we receive Christ we receive His death as much as His life right then BY FAITH. My faith in Jesus Christ has baptized me into His death and resurrection life.

HE works death in me as much as HE works life in me.

Romans 8:11-13. This was not possible under the Old Covenant, but Parise God, In Christ IT IS FINISHED ,I've entered His REST!!!. I am COMPLETE In Christ ..I'm SAVED today, tomorrow and forever more!
---kathr4453 on 4/29/10


MarkV, Part 2

If you (pl) want to believe Seed = Born Again, you (pl) can.

However, Scripture clearly shows Seed + Deliverance + Fruit = Salvation. Then, Salvation x Works (Through Fruit) = Crowns.

So, keep arguing with those who doggedly think they can lose their salvation, they probably never had it in the first place. However, I think you are smart enough to invest your denarius more wisely.

Miche, the DNA rebuttal was brilliant.
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


Thank you Aka Joseph.
That is what the word of God says.
I believe it 100%. It is in fallible and God will never steer us wrong.
I know that.

Just want to say that I am humbled everyday, by what some of my brothers and sisters say on this site. God is still revealing things all the time.

I am still learning myself like you said. And as each day passes, God shows me something new.
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


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\\But, then the Holy Spirit reels me back in and says, "Let's KISS!" Let's Keep It Simple Sinner!\\

There's a difference between simple and simplistic.

Most people seem to want the latter, especially when dealing with spiritual issues.
---Cluny on 4/29/10

I love Cluny. You here a lot about iron sharpening iron...(yada, yada, yada :~)... but, this man will break you if you don fool's iron.

"Keep It Simplistic Sinner" is much better!
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


MarkV, Part 1

//When people claim they can be save, and later sin, and lose salvation...AND repent.. to gain salvation again. Believers are born again once and for all.// MarkV

I TOTALLY agree but let's qualify the last statement.

I think that rebirth does not happen right at conception. It is not until we see deliverance and fruit of the Spirit that we can "claim" rebirth. Paul is a great example of one who diplays true fruit and we can see his deliverance, sanctification, and fruit.

I am sorry, but "many" are going to find out that salvation in thier own understanding is not there...
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


Miche, that was awesome.
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


Amen to your last post mima.

Our actions should show that it is Christ who lives in us and it is Christ people should see by our actions, NOT us.
Because our own righteousness is rags.
It is only through and BY Christ any man is made truly righteous in the eyes of God.

That is what dying to self is.
That is what submitting to God is.
Letting HIM dictate our actions. That IS Christ in us. HIS Light!
Like doing something because of love and asking for nothing in return.
"There is no greater love than one who would lay down his life for his brother".
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


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Also, Kath,
It was through his actions that all died.
We followed those actions.

I know I am righteous because CHRIST makes me righteous. To die to the flesh means what Kath?
When Jesus told us to follow HIM, what did he really mean.
Didn't Jesus come to save us and SHOW us the RIGHT way?
In Adam, all follow the WRONG way, right?
Yes, and how is that? because we see it.
All died in adam because of his actions.
NOT because he was made that way. That is like sayin ghe was made to disobey God, when really he was not.
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


Matthew 7:13-14," 13-Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14-Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

The above verse alluded to by ---miche3754 speaks of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the narrow and strait gate. He is the one that few find.

Many people think the above verse refers to their behavior when it actually refers to the personage of the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
---mima on 4/29/10


\\But, then the Holy Spirit reels me back in and says, "Let's KISS!" Let's Keep It Simple Sinner!\\

There's a difference between simple and simplistic.

Most people seem to want the latter, especially when dealing with spiritual issues.
---Cluny on 4/29/10


also, I noticed that you said we have Christ dna. NO, we have his spirit. The Holy Spirit.
The flesh profits nothing remember.

His Spirit lives in us, and shows us the RIGHT way to be and trusting that IS trusting in Christ.

How would we get Christ's dna?
DNA is flesh NOT spirit.
And what is it we have in us once we are saved? Christ's Spirit!
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


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It is a false statement to say Once saved always saved is doctrinal, biblical, or scriptural.

People always have a choice, they can walk with God at one time,a nd walk away at another time.

Consider what the BIBLE has to say.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity,.. shall he live?.. in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
---francis on 4/29/10


Kath,

You know from the beginning, disobedience- sin- is a choice.
BUT none are righteous unless they are in Christ.
You can be the most righteous person on the planet, but it don't mean a hill of beans unless you are in Christ.
Sin is NOT in our dna.
That would mean that God made us that way, Kath.
Did God make us to sin?
No, he did not. We chose it.
All died in Adam because all followed after his example.
If not then why was righteousness imputed to Abraham?
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


Mima,

Very well said.
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


sister miche...you never did answer the question i asked. You just said that it happened to you. How would you answer the question?
---JIM on 4/29/10
Yes I did, brother....

//Doesn't God say that thieves and liars do not inherit the kingdom?

Yes.
Are you a Christian if you do something like that?
Not in my opinion and not according to the Word of God, sorry to sound so harsh but that shows iniquity in the heart, bro.
---miche3754 on 4/28/10 //

That is why we are told to hold EVERY THOUGHT captive.
Remember that the gate is very narrow, too.
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


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Miche, I believe SIN is in our DNA,in Adam ALL have died, period.

When we receive Jesus Christ we now have HIS DNA, and imputed Righteousness in God's eyes. This is our position before God.

From there, now we GROW, called sanctification. Our Imputed Righteousness can NEVER be taken away NEVER. And as MarkV said, WE BELIEVE that He who has begun a good work in you WILL continue to teh day of Jesus Christ.

Now know MarkV didn't say those exact words, but did say, and I agree 100% that faith in God's Promises is what really matters. Either you believe it or you don't.

I do, and KNOW He keeps His promises! The JUST shall live by FAITH..in His Promises
---kathr4453 on 4/29/10


Everyone's salvation is based on performance, is based on works. Not our works or performance but based solely on the performance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If a person is depending upon their performance by doing so they are nullifying or making of no effect the performance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As the great evangelist John R. Rice said, nowhere in the Bible does it say that salvation is 99 percent dependence on God and 1% attendance on our own works(performance).
---mima on 4/29/10


miche3754,

My flesh would like to say, "that's what I do!" But, then the Holy Spirit reels me back in and says, "Let's KISS!" Let's Keep It Simple Sinner!

BTW, I am currently being delivered from verbosity, wanting to be "right", and trying to "educate" the masses...(among all the other things Paul and the others list). If the Lord can say through me one simple thing that will make a difference in one person's daily living, that's good enough for me.

I do appreciate how the Spirit shows me the changes that He made in me through your kind words. Thank you, Lord!
---aka_joseph on 4/29/10


sister miche...you never did answer the question i asked. You just said that it happened to you. How would you answer the question?
---JIM on 4/29/10


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Samuel, you said,
"We do not believe that saying a phrase or words obligates GOD to save us even if we do not have a relationship with GOD"
God promises that if you believe with your heart that Jesus died on the cross for your sins an that He has risen, you will be saved. You say it does not obligate Him, but He never goes back on His promise. Otherwise you are saying His promises should not be taken as Truth.
The reason you believe that people can lose salvation is because you follow the doctrine of the RCC on salvation by works. If you use your free will to come to Christ, and God does not draw you, you can also lose your salvation by your own free will. A salvation by self works. RCC doctrine.
---MarkV. on 4/29/10


Christ died on the Cross for the sins of all those who put their faith and trust in Him, one time only. It is once for all time.
---MarkV. on 4/29/10

True
it still doesn't give a license to sin when you want and still claim it's covered. That's making a mockery of God.
Sin is not imbedded in our dna.
We sin from habit/ watching other people do it.
You can choose sin or not. Christ gives you POWER to say you don't have to follow the will of your flesh.
Please understand the Power Christ IN you gives you. You are NOT some depraved idiot who can't help but sin. You are a son of God!
You have the power of Christ in you to make the devil flee when he comes against you with temptations!
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


Aka, you said,
"When people argue that Jesus would have to die over if I repent over and over are being either shortsighted or they want to hold onto the stuff of the sin state and claim Jesus"
When people claim they can be save, and later sin, and lose salvation, that person would have to repent again to gain salvation again, then lose it again if he sins and backslides, and repent again to gain salvation again. Believers are born again once and for all. We are considered cleansed before the Father, but underneath, in our flesh we are still sinners for the body has not been redeemed yet.
Christ died on the Cross for the sins of all those who put their faith and trust in Him, one time only. It is once for all time.
---MarkV. on 4/29/10


By the way, Jim,

I had that happen to me before, and I gave the money back.

WHY? Because God is always watching. We can't hide from him.

We can't pick and choose when we want to be a Christian. This is a way of life. You either live it or you don't. You can't straddle the fence. Serve one or the other.

AKA Joseph said it best, God is always showing me things that I need to remove from my life daily.

By the way, I apologize (again) if I sounded really harsh.
---miche3754 on 4/29/10


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Since we only know inpart, we must go with what we know. Some are more anointed than others. None-the-less, I believe God when He says to me, "go on what you know".
---catherine on 4/28/10


//...God suggested, "just go on what you know". Hallelujah.//
---catherine on 4/28/10

By your blogs, I cannot figure out who you are hailing! This is the exact opposite of what true sanctification through the Holy Spirit is.

There might be some misguided people on here, including me, but you and one other person on CN does not have to live according to the Scriptures by God's permission.
---aka_joseph on 4/28/10


miche....are you saying that if someone woke up one morning, confessed their sins to God and asked for forgiveness drove to mcdonalds, got breakfast, and was given more money back than they were suppose to get and kept it knowing it was more than they should have received and drove off and was killed in a car accident they will go to hell.
Is this what you aew saying?
---JIM on 4/28/10

Doesn't God say that thieves and liars do not inherit the kingdom?

Yes.
Are you a Christian if you do something like that?
Not in my opinion and not according to the Word of God, sorry to sound so harsh but that shows iniquity in the heart, bro.
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


If you will notice in the parable of the sower, there is a difference in the seed as well as the ground. In the first three where nothing or little is produced then dies, it is called "SOME seed". In the last, it is called "OTHER seed". Upon noticing this difference, I asked the Holy Spirit why He was so inclined to differentiate. He said, "The reason it is some in the first three is because it is just one among many. The reason the "other" is "other" is because it is the "only". When the seed of the Sower is just among the many different seeds you receive in your heart, it is regarded as "some" by the hearer and it is not attended to. No attention, no life.
---Linda on 4/28/10


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Michael,
Not one time have I ever questioned Markv's salvation.
I believe he is saved.
His doctrine is different than mine.
He believes a different OSAS than I do.
I believe he is immature in the Holy Spirit, that is all.
And why would I be mad at you?
You are just trying to mediate. I don't have a problem with that at all.
I know I say somethings that step on peoples toes, but, so did Jesus.
Even the thief on the cross recognized his sin and repented before he died.
And AKA Joe,
I loved your last post too. are you ever going to stop amazing me with your simple and to the point posts that speak truth? Probably not.:-)
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


It is not until fruit is produced and measurable that the plant is "saved."
There are some plants that die, there are some who live but do not produce fruit. It is not that they have "lost" their salvation, they never born fruit, so they were never actually born again.
---aka_joseph on 4/28/10

Amen, sir. Very well put. My understanding as well.

As I tell people, THREE seeds in the parable of the sower grow. But only one makes it to maturity and produces fruit.

The Heavenly Father wants us to produce fruit and it is by our fruit that we are known.

No maturity and fruit, no salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/10


part 2. MarkV ,There is general sin condition "we have all fallen short..." and individual sins such as lying, adultery, backbiting...

We all need to repent for our fallen state is necessary for salvation. Also, some like me, live a life of repentance because the Holy Spirit constantly reveals habits that need to be sanctified. In order to be delivered, I need to repent (or turn away from)the habits that I have from when I was in a sin state..."let the Spirit renew your mind."

When people argue that Jesus would have to die over if I repent over and over are being either shortsighted or they want to hold onto the stuff of the sin state and claim Jesus. ...
---aka_joseph on 4/28/10


Oh, I am going to go with what God suggested, when I asked Him this similar question: He said, "just go on what you know". Hallelujah.
---catherine on 4/28/10


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Miche3754 and MarkV
Are you two married? or like siblings?
You fight all the time, question each others salvation in Christ, pick on each other about the simplist statement, phrase, or word, come to a point of either calling names or implying an ungodly characteristic trait, and just not seeing the work of Christ in each other.
I suppose now you will agree to turn your attention to me and disregard the work of Christ in my life as well.
I do admire each of you for your passion and zeal for the Truth in God's Word. Let us not continue in worldly bonds, but the relationships that flow from the Father: edifying, encouraging, and receiving instruction from each other to the glory of God.
---MIchael on 4/28/10


miche....are you saying that if someone woke up one morning, confessed their sins to God and asked for forgiveness drove to mcdonalds, got breakfast, and was given more money back than they were suppose to get and kept it knowing it was more than they should have received and drove off and was killed in a car accident they will go to hell.
Is this what you aew saying?
---JIM on 4/28/10


Amen Samuel.
As long as we are in a relationship with God, we are saved. As long as God is LORD in your life, you are saved.
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


I cannot understand why through the parable of the sower that salvation is not clear. The seed that is growing can fall away and die. It is not until fruit is produced and measurable that the plant is "saved."
There are some plants that die, there are some who live but do not produce fruit. It is not that they have "lost" their salvation, they never born fruit, so they were never actually born again.

Now, there is the issue of "tilling" the soil. That may sound like works, but it is not. We submit to Him allow Him to the till the stony places in our heart.

Cluny is right. Saved by grace, works for fruit in which we all benefit. Paul spoke quite often about earning "crowns".
---aka_joseph on 4/28/10


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First this statment makes an assumption that is not valid. Methodist, Lutherns, Adventist, and many other denominations do not believe in the Predestionation doctrine of Once Saved always saved.

We do not believe that saying a phrase or words obligates GOD to save us even if we do not have a relationship with GOD. Those who believe that GOD has given us free will believe that when we our in relationship with JESUS we are saved. But when we divorce GOD by ending that relationship we are not saved just like a person who lives in adultery is not saved.

Chuck Swindol who does believe osas says it this way if GOD is not LORD of your life you are not saved.
---Samuel on 4/28/10


No, Markv,

It can send a believer to hell for lack of repentance.
I realize we slip and fall but we still have to ask for fogiveness when we do. We can't take for granted the blood of Christ.

When we sin, we should own up to it and repent.
NOT say "well, it is alright Jesus already covered it" because that is mocking God.

And the word says we are rewarded crowns for the work we do for God. Do you deny that?

You are trying to combine 2 subjects to trip me up when it will not work. I stand the word of God, Markv.
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


Miche, if you Amen that, then why do you say that a sin can send a genuine believer back to hell because of his lack of performance? Or his lack of performance in repenting? A lack of performance by his none actions. If we are saved by grace and rewarded for our works doesn't that tell you, you are saved by Grace and not by anything you do? You want to hold on to the two concepts and refuse to believe that Jesus died for those who are drawn by God, once for all time. Again, you say Amen to saved by grace and rewarded for their works is true?
---MarkV. on 4/28/10


I base everything in what the living God tells me face to face. Still, there is a lot that we don't know, and never will. We only know inpart. I only know that I do thank God everyday for keeping me.
---catherine on 4/28/10


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/The significant difference to me is that the "many" said "we did this..." That is the definition of performance. And, the thief said "[You] remember me." That is the definition of total submission./

Amen. Anybody who thinks they can stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and boast in their own works to gain a foothold will find themselves without a leg to even stand on and won't have a choice of whether to bow the knee or not.
---Linda on 4/28/10


He would have to do it again, if you repented again. And if you fail again, you would have to do it again, just like the Old testament people, sacrificing every time over and over.
---MarkV. on 4/28/10

Not true according to scripture.
Philippians 2:12-13 (New American Standard Bible)
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13for it is God who is at work in you,
both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

God IS working. NOT has.

Also 1 Corinthians 15:30-36
Die daily, Repent daily, Jesus told us to do.
Matt 6:9-13
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


How about the TRUTH, which you are not considering: Saved by grace, rewarded according to works.
---Cluny on 4/27/10

Amen!
---miche3754 on 4/28/10


Bob, you're absolutely right. They want salvation to be on their performance. Or one sin sending a genuine Christian to hell. They say one sin will remove you from the body of Christ, remove your inheritence, send you back to been an orphan, and put you on the road to hell again, all because you could not perform as God told you to perform. He wanted perfection and you didn't become perfect so you are thrown to the lake of fire. Such nonesense.
Nothing is mention about the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for your sin once forever. He would have to do it again, if you repented again. And if you fail again, you would have to do it again, just like the Old testament people, sacrificing every time over and over. More nonesense.
---MarkV. on 4/28/10


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As so many people here do, you have posed a false dichotomy.

OSAS is true--but there is a difference, as I've said elsewhere, between being saved and a conversion experience.

How about the TRUTH, which you are not considering: Saved by grace, rewarded according to works.
---Cluny on 4/27/10


When you consider the many and the "thief on the cross", it makes you wonder not about once saved, always saved. It makes you wonder about our commonly accepted definition of salvation.

How many of those "many" that Jesus told to depart from Him thought they were saved? about 100%?

The significant difference to me is that the "many" said "we did this..." That is the definition of performance. And, the thief said "[You] remember me." That is the definition of total submission.

There is no interpretation here, it's just what I read.
---aka_joseph on 4/28/10


Starting with Apostle Peter who delivered The Salvation message from God, Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20 to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost, Apostolic which Is the teachings of the apostles. There is less of The Church of The Living God in the world. Fear ye not little flock for ye are the Fathers good pleasure.

The so called Man-made teachings once saved alway saved, no works salvation, the sinners prayer etc All started with the rcc even her offspring churches, Matt.15 v 9 which came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15., even the god of the buddha, muslams, hindu's etc, will end up here, Rev.17 v's 4 - 6. There is more of the Man-made relig-org's churches in the world.
---Lawrence on 4/28/10


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