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Coming Of The Lord Rapture

Is the Coming of the Lord and the Pretrib Resurrection Rapture the same event?

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 ---glen on 5/6/10
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Glen:

Your tying of Luke 21:24 the "times of the Gentiles" to Rev 11:2, I think is incorrect.

As I read the verse in Luke, it is a foretelling of the eventual disbursement of the Jewish people into the nations between the sack of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and the eventual regathering and establishment of Jerusalem as their nations capital.

The verse in Revelation relates to a definitive time but not the time of vengence. The time of vengence is for the past sins of Israel and this is the reason or Jerusalem's devastation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/12/10


the AOD is both 70 ad in the past, and future
in luke 21 it mentions an event to start happening before the day of the lord

"jerusalem will be trodden by gentiles until the times of the gentles are fulfilled"

this is not currently happening but it will start later before the day of the lord

revelation 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
---glen on 5/12/10


luke 22 : 28And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh.

one of "these things" is the trampling of jerusalem which does not occur again until the last 42 months, then later the coming of christ for his saints

NOT after the 42 months, but within it, after it begins, but before it ends

the last time jerusalem started to be trampled was ages ago, so "that generation" could not be the ones that "look up and lift up they're heads"
---glen on 5/12/10


even nearly all the pretribbers disagree with you, even they realise rev 7 happens some way into the tribulation!!!
---glen on 5/11/10

That is why everyone agrees that they are wrong.

The sequence of the verses in Matt 24 and the sequence of events in Matt 24 are not the same.

I have told you there are three different time periods being described in this chapter and still you disregard this.

Answer this: Is the AOD, a sign of the temple being torn down, a sign of Jesus coming, or a sign of the end of the age?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/10


francis
thats right, almost all believers are resurrected in rev 7 during the trib

some are taken later
1. 2 witnesses just before the 7th trumpet
2. 144000 at the 7th trumpet
3. those that sing the song of moses on sea of glass
4. the woman(israel) that is protected for 1260 days

all the above are jewish messianic saints

even though some of them are here during the day of the lord, Gods wrath doesn't affect them. only the antichrist kills some of them
---glen on 5/11/10




Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, >


Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The great multitude comes out of the great tribulation. Which mean the rapture happened AFTER the tribulation. remember there are only TWO resurrection, and rapture and ressurection is the same day.
---francis on 5/11/10


mark
you still miss the fact they come out of GREAT TRIBULATION

also the fact that jesus mentioned in matthew in this order

1. birthpains (1st 4 seals)
2. abomination of desolation
3. tribulation (unequalled distress)
4. then after this - the celestial signs which are in the 6th seal
5. then the gathering of the elect, which is in revelation 7

Gods wrath (day of the lord)that follows after this is tribulation for unbelievers, this is the punishment for the world because they killed the saints
tribulation isn't even mentioned after the 7th seal
Gods wrath is SEPARATE from the saints tribulation




---glen on 5/11/10


Glen:

I cannot answer so many posts at a time. I can answer one point at a time, if you like. I am having trouble getting my posts accepted as it is.

Okay, the great multitude is seen at the sixth seal and before the seventh seal.

When is this? Has the wrath started? NO, the wrath has not started yet.

The judgment and the sentence of wrath to be carried out is IN the scroll. The scroll is not open until the seventh seal is lifted. This is still PRETRIB. The seals are not the Tribulation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/10


what amazes me mark is that i haven't put in my chronology i've only put in whats laid out in the bible

even nearly all the pretribbers disagree with you, even they realise rev 7 happens some way into the tribulation!!!
---glen on 5/11/10


mark

you just said the day of the lord starts with the opening of the scroll
wrong it starts after the opening of the 6th seal

you also ignore the fact that the abomination of desolation comes before the day of the lord

the AOD is already there beofre the celestial signs

are you saying they are 2 different tribulations?

jesus clearly said the greatest distress comes BEFORE the signs of the 6th seal
is that true or not?
great tribulation is always a reference to the saints not the unbelievers
"those who dwell on the earth" only applies to unbelievers and is apparent after the rersurrection/rapture in rev 7


---glen on 5/11/10




mark
which part of this don't you understand?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of *GREAT TRIBULATION*, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

does that look pretrib to you?

and when is this multitude seen in heaven?

AFTER the trib (jesus clearly said unequalled tribulation) of those days, the sun, moon, stars, (6th seal) then the multitude in heaven
how is that before the tribulation?
---glen on 5/11/10


john
your right there is no pre trib rapture but rev 7 is NOT PRE TRIB
AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE days, the sun,moon darken and stars fall matthew 24 - this is also what happens in the 6th seal, followed by a multitude seen in heaven who come out of great tribulation

israel is no longer blinded because they have witnessed it and the 144000 are sealed - the fullness of gentiles has come in

the LAST DAY marks the end of the age when Gods wrath begins

6th seal - "come did the great day of his wrath and who is able to stand?"
---glen on 5/11/10


In revelation 7 we do see a great multitude before the throne, but this is in no way a pre tribulation rapture.

In fact the text does indicate that some of them came out of the great tribulation.

There is no indication here that this is a pre tribulation rapture at all.
---francis on 5/11/10


hey guys, i am not getting the revelation 7 idea.
---FRANCIS on 5/10/10

See how the church is described in this verse:

Rev 5:9 "And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals, for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation"

And this verse:

Rev 7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands"

The "and behold" tells you they appeared suddenly.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/10


your right there is no pre trib rapture but your timing of rev 7 is wrong
where did that multitude come from in heaven?
that is well into the tribulation
---glen on 5/10/10

Your chronology is pure fantasy.

The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation.

It starts with the opening of the scroll.

Joel 2:30-31 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood. BEFORE the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

When does this line up with Revelation?

The Sixth seal, just prior to the start of the Tribulation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/11/10


john
your right there is no pre trib rapture but your timing of rev 7 is wrong
where did that multitude come from in heaven?

that is well into the tribulation
jesus said he would cut those days short for the sake of the elect, that is the reason we do not know the day or hour

can't you see the day of the lord starts at the 6th/7th seal?

"for the great day of his wrath is come and who is able to stand?"

look at my previous post and read ,matt 24 closely with revelation

"last day" is the day before the day of the lord starts - which is in rev 7
---glen on 5/10/10


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i get the feeling that people are confused about the timing of rev 11,12 and 13 and that it starts after the 6th and 7th trumpets
IT DOESN"T!!
it starts way before then
those chapters are "interludes" in the book, basically "flashbacks" to what started before the 6th seal was opened

the 6th seal is opened "after the tribulation of those days"
---glen on 5/10/10


hey guys, i am not getting the revelation 7 idea. I read it, i did not see rapture or ressurection there
---FRANCIS on 5/10/10

BECAUSE THERE IS NONE!.
PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY STARTED BY AN OCCULTIST WITCH NAMED MARGARET MAC DOWELL (GOOGLE IT)

She had seance which was attended by John Darby who later told Scoffield who added it to his study bible that came to America. That is where this heresy came from. Today it's "in" with the Psuedo Carnal Beoguiose Fake Christians who follow Ricky Warren and Joel Osteen. To them Christianity has no suffering just joy and potluck gluttony.

Read John 6. Matt 24 and hear what Christ said. "on the LAST day I will.....
"AFTER the tribulation...
---John on 5/10/10


francis
read matthew 24 carefully and compare them to the seals
jesus said there would be birthpains
1.false christs (1st seal)
2.war (2nd seal)
3.famine (3rd seal)
4.pestilence etc (4th seal)
5.later the abomination of desolation and tribulation (5th seal)
6.then after that tribulation, the sun,moon and stars - (6th seal)
then gathering of the elect (multitiude in rev 7 before Gods throne)
following this Gods wrath begins with the trumpets
the first trumpet mirrors what jesus said about lot leaving sodom (fire from heaven)
too many parallels to be a coincidence
---glen on 5/10/10


The Great Tribulation starts before the 1st seal is broken.
---Elder on 5/9/10

I do not believe the calling up of John in Rev 4:1 is the Rapture of the Church nor is it the beginning of the Tribulation.

As Rev 1:19 says, everything in Rev is either the things John has seen, the things that are currently happening, or the things that will happen in the future.

I believe Rev chapters 4 and 5 are things that are happening in heaven NOW, not in the future.

The future starts with Rev 6:1.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/10/10


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hey guys, i am not getting the revelation 7 idea. I read it, i did not see rapture or ressurection there

can you help me see that?
---FRANCIS on 5/10/10


15According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the *coming of the Lord*....

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be *caught up*

as you can see 1 thess is not pre trib

1 thess 4 ties the "coming"(presence) and *catching* up together

saints who are alive till the *coming of the lord* will be *caught up*
when does this happen?

read the 6th seal event, "the great day of his wrath is come"
---glen on 5/10/10


we see the saints before the throne of God in rev 7

other saints are resurrected and caught up just before and at the 7th trumpet

they are in the *presence of the lord*

this is the literal term of *coming of the lord* (for his saints)

then he touches down on earth to complete his wrath
---glen on 5/10/10


we see the saints before the throne of God in rev 7

other saints are resurrected and caught up just before and at the 7th trumpet

they are in the *presence of the lord*

this is the literal term of *coming of the lord* (for his saints)

then he touches down on earth to complete his wrath
---glen on 5/10/10


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elder

you and mark disagree on the great trib
mark thinks it is pre trib (rev 7)

anyway in revelation 3 john is in the spirit *on the lords day*, and hears a trumpet *behind him*

in rev 7 a multitude is caught up with a trumpet (same as matt 24)

followed by the *day of the lord* from the 7th seal

later *come up here* is mirrored in the 6th trumpet with the 2 witnesses
---glen on 5/10/10


michael

the coming of the lord literally renders "presence of the lord"

it doesn't mean that he touches down on earth straight away

the day of the lord is not just one day

it starts after the events of the 6th seal

coming (presence)of the lord and catching up are simultaneous,

"parousia" is a continued presence, not just a one day event

a multitude are caught up in rev 7, then later other saints are caught up just before the 7th trumpet
---glen on 5/10/10


SECOND COMING, RAPTURE, AND RESURRECTION ON THE SAM DAY:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

TRIBULATION BEFORE RESURRECTION:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
---francis on 5/10/10


glen you seem to be assuming that I assume the things you said.
All people will go through the Great Tribulation that haven't accepted Christ before it starts.
The Great Tribulation starts before the 1st seal is broken. It starts in between Rev 3:22 and Rev 4:1. The 1st seal is broken in Rev 6. That is when Satan comes on the scene.
Rev 7 is teaching that many many will be Saved and not just a 144,000.
---Elder on 5/9/10


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---glen on 5/9/10 17 After that,*WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE* and are left will be *CAUGHT UP* together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
After we (the BoC meet Him in the AIR) then what?
What about Zech 14:4 And Acts 1:11 Where He stands on terra firma?
---michael_e on 5/10/10


michael e

with respect your incorrect
the 2nd coming and catching up occur on the same day, it's confirmed in 1 thessalonians chapter 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that *WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE*, who are left till the *COMING OF THE LORD*, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that,*WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE* and are left will be *CAUGHT UP* together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

here it says clearly the coming and catching up happen on the same day
---glen on 5/9/10


elder
you seem to be assuming that only jews and israel go through great tribulation but the multitude in rev 7 come out of GREAT TRIBULATION, they are from every tribe nation and language (mainly gentiles)

also you assume Gods wrath starts the great tribulation, it doesn't it starts after the great tribulation is underway

the beast is already killing saints before the 6th seal is opened, and that is nothing to do with Gods judgment
Gods judgment follows because of this persecution
---glen on 5/9/10


No, the 2nd (Zech. 14:4) coming of the Lord is a prophesied (Acts 3:21) Event as was the 1st.(which was not understood either)
The Rapture,(catching away,catching up)(1 Thess 4, 1 Cor.15)was not prophesied, so it was kept secret(Deut 29:29) until revealed to our Apostle (Rom. 16:25)
---michael_e on 5/9/10


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I do not believe that it is the same event, however, I must do somemore studying in this.
---catherine on 5/9/10


I read Matt. chapter 13 this morning. Many of the parables basically say that there is a day of judgement. The parables don't say when the day of judgement happens, only that it will happen. That is what's most important. Be ready.

One could read the parables with an explanation that the Kingdom of heaven will grow and grow taking over the earth and at the end the tares, unbelievers, will be destroyed.

I know that these parable need to be understood in light of other scriptures. However, some of the end times understanding depends on how much emphasis people put on which passages.
---Rod4Him on 5/9/10


Jodi, I totally agree with your answer. I do like to hear the three views because so many have many different ideas.
---MarkV. on 5/8/10


Glen you need to look closer at what I wrote. I said "Great Tribulation," there is a difference there too. Maybe I need to say Jacob's trouble. Christians go through tribulations every day but never the Great tribulation.
Cluny the flood waters of Noah, on the earth was an example of God's wrath. No door on the Ark was an example of Christ being the way. Noah was raised above it. Noah did not stay on the earth. Not one drop of water touched Noah's crowd.
Lot was removed, no fire and brimstone on them either.
The hindrance of total evil taking over now is the Holy Spirit in Believers. When He is taken out of the way and believers with Him then the Great Tribulation will start.
PS. Look around that day you won't see me there.
---Elder on 5/8/10


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I see no evedince of a pre-trib rapture which has been taught in many churches for some time now. The way I read it, Jesus will come back only one more time and at that time, the dead in Christ will rise first and then those(Christians) who remain and are alive will rise to meet Him in the air. Once His children are all with Him , He finally decends to earth and thus begins the Battle of Armegedon which He wins:) I don't see where He comes back 2 times with the first one being a time where certain Believers who are "right with God" dissapear off of the planet with others wondering what happened as in the Left Behind series. That notion is a product of man's wishful thinking not God's Word.
---jody on 5/8/10


Psa 91:5-8 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, nor for the arrow that flieth by day, Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
---jerry6593 on 5/8/10


Moderator

I have tried to post to this blog several times without success. Am I being blocked?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/10


---Cluny on 5/7/10Those who are looking for a pre-trib rapture will be the first to fall down and worship the Beast.

Where did you get that idea?
---michael_e on 5/8/10


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elder
again the tribulation of saints IS NOT THE SAME AS GODS WRATH

believers are removed before the trumpets (GODS WRATH)

what happens to them before Gods wrath?

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
---glen on 5/7/10


\\If Christians are to go through this Tribulation then why did God remove all of His people in every other destruction/judgement event?\\

Where did you get that idea?

Noah and his family were not removed from the earth during the Flood, but were preserved THROUGH it.

Jesus prayed, "I ask that You do NOT take them out of this world, but that you keep them safe from the Evil One."

The rapturist prays, "You don't listen to Jesus! You take us OUT of this world."

Those who are looking for a pre-trib rapture will be the first to fall down and worship the Beast.
---Cluny on 5/7/10


elder
again the tribulation of saints IS NOT THE SAME AS GODS WRATH

believers are removed before the trumpets (GODS WRATH)

what happens to them before Gods wrath?

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
---glen on 5/7/10


mark
that is not the first resurrection, it's the resurrection of the wicked (rev 20)

what about the multitude who come out of GREAT TRIBULATION in rev 7?

are they not resurrected?

if the dead in christ rise first that is a resurrection agreed?
---glen on 5/7/10


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If, as some mistakenly say, Christians will go through the Great Tribulation what is God's purpose for the Tribulation.
If Christians are to go through this Tribulation then why did God remove all of His people in every other destruction/judgement event?
How many Christians/Believers died in the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the Red sea event? If you say between zero and 0 you will be correct.
As many continue to do here, do not use the Great Tribulation and Second Coming events and verses to try to describe what is going to happen before the Tribulation. If you do you will never get it right, as has been proven by some here.
As far as the word Rapture not being in the Bible niether is bus but how many have ridden one to school?
---Elder on 5/7/10


the coming, rapture, and resurrection are all the same day

do you disagree with the above scripture?
---glen on 5/7/10

No, but I disagree with you.

The Resurrection is at the end of the Lord's Day, as seen in this verse:

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds"
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/10


mark
the seals contain the presecution of the anrichrist
after this the resurrectuion in rev 7
THEN the judgment of God
the tribulation of saints IS NOT THE SAME THING AS GODS JUDGMENT

AOD comes first with persecution (this is not Gods judgment)

followed by christs coming, then the 7th seal is opened
---glen on 5/7/10


cluny and candice

i agree to an extent with you, but the day of the lord isn't just one day but an unspecified time

the day of the lord begins at the conclusion of the 6th seal

16and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the anger of the Lamb,'

17because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand? (rev 6)

this is the beginning of his wrath which is after the signs jesus said to watch out for
---glen on 5/7/10


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You will see that EVERY place it mentions "the coming/return of the Lord," it refers to His return AS JUDGE ON THE LAST DAY.
---Cluny on 5/7/10


Some places, but not every place
---francis on 5/7/10


AGAIN TRIB BEFORE RAPTURE
---francis on 5/7/10

You have not convinced me.

Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name"

Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a GREAT tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will"

Two kinds of tribulation and not the same event.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/10


\\The Coming of the Lord and the Rapture are the same event. \\

Read the Bible more carefully.

You will see that EVERY place it mentions "the coming/return of the Lord," it refers to His return AS JUDGE ON THE LAST DAY.
---Cluny on 5/7/10


mark
the coming, rapture, and resurrection are all the same day

you are right about the 6th seal and matthew it is the church, but it's NOT pretrib

and the resurrection happens before the rapture

*and the dead in Christ will rise first*(resurrection). 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

do you disagree with the above scripture?
---glen on 5/7/10


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Glen no I donot. I believe all will be risen at the same time & judged at the same time. Pretrib & rapture, tribulation are manmade words & ideas.Sorry. I believe in the ressurection Jesus spoke of where the just & unjust are equally judged.
---candice on 5/7/10


Daniel 12:1 there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

RAPTURE POST TRIB


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation >>
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

RAPTURE POST TRIB
---FRANCIS on 5/7/10


The word Rapture is connected to the Latin word rapiemur, which appears in Pauls first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up:

The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:1617)

Therefore, those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord.
---Steven on 5/7/10


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation >>
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AGAIN TRIB BEFORE RAPTURE
---francis on 5/7/10


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the 2nd coming is at the 6th seal(unknown day) which is well into the last 42 month tribulation
---glen on 5/7/10

How many times do I need to explain that the seals occur before the Tribulation and are not part of the Tribulation?

The tribulation is God's wrath on those who dwell on the earth and the sentence of God's judgment is contained within the scroll. Only Jesus is worthy to unseal the scroll and not until the scroll is opened can the sentence been read. This is why there is silence in heaven when the seventh seal is removed, the judgment can be clearly seen by all.

The seals are not part of the judgment thus not part of the Tribulation.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/10


i actually wanted pretribbers to answer this question but so far it seems none have turned up!!!!!!
---glen on 5/6/10

What do you want? Are you willing to listen?

I can answer this question easily.

There are three events in this question, The Coming of our Lord, the Rapture, and the Resurrection.

The Coming of the Lord and the Rapture are the same event. The events of the Matt 24 sign in the sky and Rev 6 sixth seal and Eze 38 Magog War align themselves around the sixth seal. At this same time a great multitude arrives in heaven, from every tribe, tongue, all worshipping Jesus with white robes cleansed by Jesus blood. Sounds like the church to me.

The Resurrection occurs later.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/7/10


i still haven't got a direct answer from pretribbers

is the coming of the lord and catching up the same event on the same day?
---glen on 5/7/10


some people seem to think the resurrection happens at the same time as armageddon
not possible

the 2nd coming is at the 6th seal(unknown day) which is well into the last 42 month tribulation

following this Gods wrath begins (day of the lord), and there is a catching up of the 144000 and 2 witnesses just before the 7th trumpet

then later christ comes and touches down on the earth at armageddon and completes his wrath

the term "parousia" means "presence"

it is a singular term, there are not 2 presences of the lord,when the saints in rev 7 are caught up they are in the presence of the lord, and so are the 144000 and 2 witnesses
---glen on 5/7/10


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A thought on 1 Thess 4:16 - "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first." I know there are people out there that know another Scripture I'm thinking of, relating to the "dead in Christ". It's a New Testament reference to the "spiritually dead." The spiritually dead are people that have left their love of God, and slid back into the apathies of the world. Their spiritual connections to God are severed and their faith is gone. If the "dead in Christ" rise first, doesn't it stand to reason that it is the backslidden who will return to their faith first as the time draws near for Christ's return? And that others will surely follow, hearing the Gospel amid the agonies of Tribulation ?
---Elaine on 5/7/10


Michael_e. "in the air" Is a reference to our encounter with The LORD clothed in our "Spiritual" Breath of Life bodies to join Him, along with the resurrected, likewise clothed, on the Mount of Olives as He executes His wrath upon the wicked. The witness is the chapter you quoted, specifically verse five, and 1 Cor. 15:51,52. The Change is this corruptible (image of the Earthly) verse 48) "putting on" incorruption (image of the heavenly), and for the overcomer, this will include this mortal putting on immortality. Both references the body, one was made from the earth and made a living soul, the other will be one spoken into existence with the 'soul' -conscious awareness- of the resurrected restored. Psa. 23:3
---joseph on 5/7/10


i actually wanted pretribbers to answer this question but so far it seems none have turned up!!!!!!

the description of christ descending from heaven in 1 thess is the same one as in matthew 24
---glen on 5/6/10


Anybody know where 1 Thess. 4:13-17 is prophesied.

I find a lot of prophecy that speaks to His second coming to set up His Kingdom,Zech 14, being very clear about Him standing on the Earth.
I am having a time finding any prophecy about people meeting Him in the air, maybe it was a secret as Deut 29:29 says can happen
---michael_e on 5/6/10


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Francis, :~(

don't you hate it when someone has to get up at 5:00a, and they set the alarm for 4:20, and keep hitting the snooze button for 40 minutes.

Either way, I plan to get up when Jesus comes "with clouds", (which is really an OT reference to Judgement. )
---aka_joseph on 5/6/10


Since there's no such thing as the Pre-Trib rapture, this cannot be the same as anything.

The Rapture, or gathering of Christ's people, takes place when He descends to earth at the Last Judgement, as 1 Thess says.

There's NOTHING in there about Christ doing a U-turn in mid-air, which is what rapturists think.
---Cluny on 5/6/10


Yawwwwwwwn!

Wake me up when you all are done beating a dead horse, again.
---aka_joseph on 5/6/10

AKA WAKE UP
AKA WAKE UP

BUZZZZZ can you hear the alarm
WAKE UP
---francis on 5/6/10


Bible:
- 1st Coming (2000 years ago)
- a period of great tribulation
- 2nd Coming
a. believers
b. non-believers

Not Bible:
- 1st Coming (2000 years ago)
- Rapture (which would really be a 2nd Coming)
- a period called "the Great Tribulation"
- 2nd Coming (which would really be a Third Coming)

Yawwwwwwwn!

Wake me up when you all are done beating a dead horse, again. Then, again...this argument will go on until the Second Coming of the Lord. No need to wake me up then, "It is going to be very noisy and very visible also as the Bible teaches." ---Pierre on 5/6/10 and I believe a period of great tribulation will keep me on my toes!
---aka_joseph on 5/6/10


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Good point, Samuel. The Thess. passage does not sound secret.

My summarized eschatology view is that there is a day of judgement for each person, and everyone will have to give an account. How, when, and where I don't know, but people need to be ready whenever it happens, and how it happens.

Personally, I don't think there is such a thing of pre-trib rapture. However, I leave room for error, so there might be a 1% chance of such a thing. In either case, if there is or if there isn't, be ready.
---Rod4Him on 5/6/10


Is the Coming of the Lord and the Pretrib Resurrection Rapture the same event?

NO the tribulation occurs BEFORE jesus second coming.
The second coming of Jesus will stop the tribulation.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
---francis on 5/6/10


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does not sound like a secret coming to me. The Second Coming is when JESUS returns for HIS church.
---Sameul on 5/6/10


I believe that the Coming of the Rapture is when God's people will be quicken in Spirit and caught up with Him, and it will be final ending. Revelation is the book in the Bible that holds the key to everything about the Returning of the Lord, and I pray to escape it.
---Kimbe7395 on 5/6/10


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pierre
i agree

candice
do you believe in a pretrib rapture?
---glen on 5/6/10


The Pretrib Resurrection Rapture IS A NON-EVENT!
The Coming of the Lord is THE EVENT!
Comment: The RESURRECTIONS are going to take place after the tribulations. At the 1st resurrection, the saints are going to be caught up in the air to meet their Savior. At the 2nd resurrection the wicked will receive their punishment which will result in their complete distruction.
Some people see the saints as being RAPTURED at the 1st resurrection but it is definitly not a SECRET EVENT like so many profess. It is going to be very noisy and very visible also as the Bible teaches.
---Pierre on 5/6/10


Samething. when he comes again it'll be when the ressurection is. I donot pay attention to man made terms only what God shows us in the bible.
---candice on 5/6/10


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