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Should Pastors Attend School

Why are pastors today judged primarily by where they went to school instead of if they are called?

Moderator - A pastor needs to be called and then go to school. Just like a doctor must be called and then attend school. Would you want a doctor that is called and then doesn't go to school to operate on your heart? Most of the pastors today are neither called nor properly Biblically educated.

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strongax, Paul was speaking about meeting Jesus face to face in heaven, he was not talking about himself not knowing the truth. The verse right before the one you miscontexted and misapplied reads: " When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." I Cor.13:11. So Paul is not saying that he is continuing to walk in darkness not ignorantly continuing to sin in persecuting the church. On the contrary he is saying that when his day comes to leave earth, and he meets Jesus, then at that time there will be no more need to pray nor to call on the Lord about anything.
---Eloy on 5/15/10


Strongax, Scripture reads that the "teacher" is Not for "the learned", but for "the unlearned" or the person who does not yet know the truth.---Eloy on 5/14/10

We think "Teacher". Ignoring the Student. We all have an individual choice. Are you a student? Who is your teacher. Mine will be Yahshua. Where most preachers and Christians flounder. They do not go to the "Only Teacher" but, to their earthy teachers.
They can become earthy mans students...sometimes for life. Some love it so.
My "Only",teacher provides two+ witnesses for everything he teaches. Thereby founded upon truth, not speculation/doctrine/theory writings of earthy men.
---Trav on 5/14/10


Eloy:

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known."

If we have humility, like Paul, we all acknowledge that our knowledge is imperfect, so we can always benefit from teaching. It is only the perfect (like Jesus) or the extremely arrogant (like anyone else) who believe that they know everything and have no further need of instruction.
---StrongAxe on 5/14/10


Strongax, You continue to speak falsehood, for how can the knowing not know. Scripture reads that the "teacher" is Not for "the learned", but for "the unlearned" or the person who does not yet know the truth. If I say to you, strongax, "Jesus is the Savior", am I teaching you anything? No not at all if you already knew this truth, but Yes indeed I am teaching you if you did not know this truth.
---Eloy on 5/14/10


David, man looks upon the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart. Jesus says, look not upon the height of his stature not on his elequence of speech nor even upon his fancy attire, for I have refused him. I refuse him, and him, and him, and him, and him, and him, and him, but I accept this little one and he will be a leader. And I refuse him, and him, and him, and him, and him, and him, and him, but I accept this little one and he will be a leader.
---Eloy on 5/14/10




Eloy:

Then please explain the myriad scriptures in the New Testament where Apostles are teaching (in many cases, born-again spirit-filled Christian congregations), and why Teacher is one of the offices of the church? If we have no need of them, why have they been there as part of the church from the very beginning?
---StrongAxe on 5/14/10


I don't know anyone who is more concerned with a "pastor's" education over their "calling."
However, for the sake of discussion, I'll assume that the "pastor" should have an overwhelming desire, rather than a "calling," to be an overseer.
First, rather than focus on an intellectual education, that person needs to focus on the behavioral qualifications, God's school of hard knots. That will probable take more time than a four to eight year intellectual education. He could do both at the same time, and that is not saying that he must have a cementery, opps, seminary school.
However, the overseer should have a good education, being able to read, write, study, and communicate oppropriately.
---Rod4Him on 5/14/10


strongax, Jesus never went to seminary, he never received ordination from man, but he was genuinely ordained and higher than all, which he proved by his supernatural miracles and raising himself back up from the dead. And he also says that we likewise will have his same mind, and we need not that any other lesser teach us when he himself calls us by name and leads us into all truth. The unregenerate say they are "ordained" because that is the piece of paper given from their education, but they have no supernatural power nor salvation, and their ordination is falsehood and vain. They are not ordained, for God himself ordains men by what he sees in the person's heart. Seminaries Cannot produce any saints, not a one, for only God does.
---Eloy on 5/14/10


Moderator, I agree with what you say that "Most of the pastors today are neither called nor properly Biblically educated." And when the blind lead the blind, then both will fall into the ditch.
---Eloy on 5/14/10


I think people that believe that they have been called to be a Pastor,should go to a certified seminary school.
---L. on 5/13/10




Eloy:

I agree. Just because someone teaches doesn't necessarily mean they are teaching the truth. (In an earlier post I said heretics have their own seminaries where they instruct their own believers heresy).

However, my last point was merely countering your argument that the Holy Spirit will teaches us everything. While John says this (ONCE), there are dozens of verses saying teachers are necessary. The very fact that one of the main church offices is teacher should tell us that this is an important issue.

There can be good teaching and bad teaching, and just as with anything else, we need to use discernment to tell one from the other.
---StrongAxe on 5/13/10


Eloy, if you were saved, you'd realize what StrongAxe, others, and I are saying are right.

And if you were saved, you would not mistranslate the Greek word "thelo" as "joy."
---Cluny on 5/13/10


strongax, until you get saved, you will continue to believe whatever you desire, including misapplying and miscontexting the scriptures in order to support false doctrine and nonChristian ways. The Bible is replete with admonitions and instructions to not listen to false teachers who contradict the truth. Just because someone or some school or university or seminary sets themself up to teach, does not automatically mean that they teach the truth because they teach. They must be in accord with the Christ's teachings in order to be true, else they are rightly judged as nonChristian inspite of the title which they have chosen to name themself. I have met many a pastor which are unsaved, and blind guides to the blind.
---Eloy on 5/13/10


Eloy:

You cite one single verse saying that teaching is not necessary. However, here are several dozens of verses that say or imply the exact opposite. "Teacher" is one of the fundamental offices of the New Testament church, 1 John 2:27 notwithstanding:

Acts 4:18, 5:25,28,42, 13:1, 15:35, 16:21, 18:11, 21:21,28, 28:31
Romans 2:20, 12:7
1 Corinthians 2:13, 4:17, 12:28-29, 14:19
Galatians 6:6
Ephesians 4:11
Colossians 1:28, 3:16
1 Timothy 2:7, 3:2, 4:11-12, 6:2-3
2 Timothy 1:11, 2:2,24
Titus 2:3-4
Hebrews 5:12
---StrongAxe on 5/13/10


Cluny, you continue to speak falsehood. Addressing the born-again Christian whom has The Omniscient Christ himself already dwelling in them, the scripture reads, lit.Gk: "Indeed the anointing which you all received from him dwells in you, and no need you all have that anyone teach you: therefore since his own anointing teaches you concerning all things, and being true and not being false, then as he taught you all, continue in him." I John 2:27.
---Eloy on 5/13/10


Cluny, good observation. However, where is the Biblical instruction that those the duties of a "pastor?" The believers are to do the work of the ministry with the overseers giving guidance. A "minister" cannot do all that, nor are they expected to Biblically.
As you ask, where is the "personal relationship concept?" I ask, where are all these instructions for the duties of the "pastor?"

Let me repeat, "ministers" give guidance and oversight as the believers do the work, encouraging, exhorting, rebuking, loving, and all the other ways to minister to "one-another?
---Rod4Him on 5/13/10


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\\Each seminary teaches the already indoctrinated, how to proliferate their manmade doctrines/traditions.\\

Of course, you NEVER repeat manmade doctrines or traditions, do you, John?

And when you are asked WHAT school books have been burned by the US Government, that is, specific titles...

Or WHO was put into gulags by T. Roosevelt,..

Or WHERE FEMA's concentration camps are....

You always answer these questions directly and NEVER merely repeat your sensational assertions, right?
---Cluny on 5/13/10


If a man is so directed by The Holy Spirit to be a Shepherd. He will also realize he lacks the knowledge to do so and would read and study in order to fulfill the decree sent to him by G-d.

Seminary is the cart before the horse. It is manmade school they're not directed by G-d.

Each seminary teaches the already indoctrinated, how to proliferate their manmade doctrines/traditions.
As many Priest, Pastor would who belong to these traditions would admit to... They Dont believe all the garbage taught, it's a job.

They preach the word of their church agendas only. Dont care about G-d at all.

Many don't believe in Infant Baptism, but will do it to keep his job. Same with Pre-trib heresy. It's just a job Nothing more!
---John on 5/12/10


I might point out that pastors have a double burden.

As well as seeing to his own soul, a pastor has to advise, comfort, support, instruct, exhort, and counsel a number of people at extremely varying levels of intelligence, knowledge, and spiritual maturity.

This is in addition to preaching one or two sermons weekly aimed at such a diverse congregation all at once.

I wonder how many people here are up to that responsibility.
---Cluny on 5/12/10


Eloy is right, in that education cannot impart the Holy Spirit.
Catherine is right, in that one should not depend on one's education, money, power, looks, etc.

All that being said, however, a good education is still a useful tool. It is a mistake to over-estimate its value or rely on it to the exclusion of all other tools, but it is also a mistake to underestimate it.

Money is a similar tool. While Jesus did warn people about serving it, he did still say that we should use it, tainted as it is:
Luke 16:9:
"And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."
---StrongAxe on 5/12/10


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Why do you assume either of these pastors, now in their seventies, have failed in the ministry? and WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE? They have probably been in the ministry for some years. Do you know their entire histories or the fruits of their past ministry? Do you know how many have had their lives changed under their preaching.

I know ministers of that age who are struggling, trying to minister because of failing health and diminished energy. They may have dreams of a growing thriving church (what pastor doesn't). But If they do not have an assistant, it is doubtful they can pastor a church alone. If they have an assistant pastor who is young and dynamic, it's no surprise if people follow him.

Does this make them failures?
---Donna66 on 5/12/10


\\Now, pay attention: And learn frm this most simple minded person of God. God does tell me things\\

No, He doesn't.

And He told me to tell you that.
---Cluny on 5/12/10


Why do you assume either of these pastors, now in their seventies, have failed in the ministry? and WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE? They have probably been in the ministry for some years. Do you know their entire histories or the fruits of their past ministry? Do you know how many have had their lives changed under their preaching.

I know ministers of that age who are struggling, trying to minister because of failing health and diminished energy. They may have dreams of a growing thriving church (what pastor doesn't). But If they do not have an assistant, it is doubtful they can pastor a church alone. If they have an assistant pastor who is young and dynamic, it's no surprise if people follow him.

Does this make them failures?
---Donna66 on 5/12/10


The Holy Spirit calls all things to remembrance, but He doesn't call up things that aren't in the memory to start with.
---Cluny on 5/12/10

I GOTTA SAY AMEN TO THAT
---francis on 5/12/10


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\\All the book learning and university attending in the world cannot impart the Holy Spirit.\\

The opposite is true.

The Holy Spirit calls all things to remembrance, but He doesn't call up things that aren't in the memory to start with.
---Cluny on 5/12/10


Dittos Eloy! Good point!
---JOHN on 5/12/10


I strongly disagree with the moderator in this. God can take the most simple minded person and make him or her more knowledgeable that a Bible scholar. Most of your teachers are unsaved, whether it be in church or college....Now, pay attention: And learn frm this most simple minded person of God. God does tell me things....Here it is: "Don't worry about your commentary it may be as good as anyone's. He said to me, not too long after He saved me.... Never depend on your education, your money, your power, your looks, your religion, your intelligence, nothing....HALLELUJAH, THANK YOU JESUS.
---catherine on 5/12/10


A-men Moderator, "Many are called, but few are chosen." All the book learning and university attending in the world cannot impart the Holy Spirit. The Saducees and the Pharisees had many years of formal education, but they lacked the most important thing, namely, God's Spirit. Now Jesus on the otherhand had zero formal education, a mere shepherd boy and a carpenter, yet he had the most important thing, namely, The Real Almighty Power of God's Spirit: indeed he walked on top of the water and raised the dead, but none of those highly educated ones nor degree holding fellows had that power, as a matter of fact they had no power at all from God but only a scholarly mind devoid of God's mind.
---Eloy on 5/12/10


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Donna5535:

Education, understanding, wisdom, zeal, a calling, the guidance of the Holy Spirit - these are all good things. The more one has, the better. One can do well without one or more of these, but not as well as well as one has them.

The pastors you mentioned did not necessary fail JUST because they were educated. They would probably have failed much sooner if they didn't have a good undestanding of what they were preaching about.
---StrongAxe on 5/11/10


Basing pastoral success on church attendance seems worldly to me.
Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away, blessed be the name of the LORD.
1Cor 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mark 4:16-17 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground, who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness, And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
---micha9344 on 5/11/10


I know of two Pastors, both are in their 70's.

Both lost most of their members. One bought a bigger building thinking the people would come, instead they left his church (and so did I back in 1999). The other one lost his members when the Assistant Pastor left and took the members with him. (Who were they following? The Pastor or the Lord?).

I feel sorry for both of them. They are good men. HOWEVER, I see where they went wrong as Pastors.

Both are educated. Both went to Seminary School/College whatever you call it...I call it CEMETARY school...lol.

My point is this: They are educated, loveable men, but where do YOU think they went wrong? and if they were schooled, why didn't they have a successful church?
---Donna5535 on 5/11/10


\\Cluny, so what PART of God's word that I'm quoting don't you agree with?\\

It's the part of God's Word you are NOT quoting.

THAT is what I don't agree with.
---Cluny on 5/11/10


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the problem with schooling is the lack of practicality in the real world. experts in the law in the bible is a good example of the problems it creates. pastors lack the knowledge & understanding. just bec. they quote a verse in the bible does not mean they know everything.

analogy is a person with college degree does not have the skill when he graduates & enters the real world of business. all he/she has is information not skill which business needs.
but a person who studied a particular skill will need a small amt of training & understand his job.
---alan5322 on 5/11/10


You can either go to a formal school, or learn from a competent pastor.

Either way, ou need much ede=ucation before taking on the role of pastor
---francis on 5/11/10


Friendly_Blogger:

I was saying that training was generally advantageous and advisable. However, every situation is different. There are some who can do quite well by learning without formal training. (For example, for purposes of qualifying for permanent residency, the United States government considers two years of work experience to be equivalent to an undergraduate degree.) And even though training is advisable, there is no specific Biblical mandate for any specific amount of training.

Also, don't forget that heretics have thier own seminaries too, to indoctrinate their own followers into those heresies in great detail - so education per se is not necessarily a good thing either.
---StrongAxe on 5/11/10


Paul had to dump John Mark in one the missionary journeys because he was not trained, immature and would not follow instructions.
It is only the Seminary System that can generate Competent Educated Clergy.
---Friendly_Blogger on 5/11/10

Friendly, so everyone who is trained through the Seminary System can minister to a brokenhearted person? Can heal the sick? Can cast out demons? and those of us who were taught to do these things by the Power of the Holy Spirit, shouldn't do them because we didn't go to Cemetary School. I mean Seminary School.

Paul also was the one who was schooled and went around killing Christians. How quickly we forget.
---Donna5535 on 5/11/10


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2 Peter 1:5-10 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, And to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness, And to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
---micha9344 on 5/11/10


People always judge where you went to school. For example, I have a bachelor of science in Elementary education, but instead people are going to look at the fact that I went to a public, black school.
---anonymous2 on 5/11/10


Well, the bible was not writen in english.
So it is beneficial to a personto go to school to learn the greek, aramaic, and hebrew to aide in understanding the translation.

Also the bible stories takes place ina variety of context, it is important that pastors learn the proper context in which these stories are writen.

The bible must be stidies line upon line, precept upon precept. have you noticed how many christians call themself NT christians?
How many see a seperation between spiritual Israel and the church?

It takes time to learn what is in the bible properly. And so a school is always needed.

There have always been people who went to school to study the scriptures.
---francis on 5/11/10


For Trev, John and StoneAxe, Calling without Training = Heresies, Errant Theology and Errant Hermeneutics.

We don't need more untrained idiots in the clergy, there are too many out there now that don't know what they are doing or preaching. That is how we get Heresies like Pre-trib and Mid- trib rapture, believers only baptism and the Tommy Rot that you must speak in tongues to be saved that comes out of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

Paul had to dump John Mark in one the missionary journeys because he was not trained, immature and would not follow instructions.

It is only the Seminary System that can generate Competent Educated Clergy.
---Friendly_Blogger on 5/11/10


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2 Kings 2:15 And when the SONS OF THE PROPHET which [were] to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

2 Kings 9:1 And Elisha the prophet called one of the CHILDREN OF THE PROPHETS, and said unto him, Gird up thy loins, and take this box of oil in thine hand, and go to Ramoth gilead:

SONS OF THE PROPHET AND CHILDREN OF THE PROPHETS are terms used to desrcribed student of the word of God.

If they did it back then, why should we abandon this good thing?
---francis on 5/11/10


Cluny, so what PART of God's word that I'm quoting don't you agree with?

Another thing, Paul may have stuided under someone, but remember in the beginning he was going around killing Christians.

I guess that's what they taught Paul when he was schooled? Too funny. It's the Holy Spirit that teaches people, anoints people and God calls them to the ministry, not a school.

Schools don't say, "okay you're coming here to learn from us, so we're going to make sure you're called of God." LOL Schools don't work that way-the Holy Spirit anoints and appoints.
---Donna5535 on 5/11/10


Cluny -- You make a good point... "try a vocation". This is one purpose of all vocational education. Inexperienced people may easily fantasize about a profession they admire, even sincerely believing they are "called" to the ministry.

It is in the discipline of studying and of "practicing" the vocation you have chosen, that you discover where your true calling is (or isn't). If your calling is elsewhere, school is the time to realize it...rather than go out into society doing damage through ignorance and suffering the pains of failure.
---Donna66 on 5/10/10


And you see the Parrots here repeat their Demon-nation religions and not G-ds religion/truth!

Blasphemy G-d with heresy of their manmade traditions.
---John on 5/10/10

Wide is the way. Even the elect....

I've offended many here with scriptures witnessing scriptures! How is it possible? On a Christian web site.....to be offended by prophets witnessing other prophets/apostles or fulfillment of prophecies.
I read once that it is ten times as hard to unlearn than learn. I can testify to that personally, so I let the Lord turn the light on...if switch is available.

Matt 15:24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
---Trav on 5/10/10


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\\I am the dumb donkey that sticks to what God says, nothing else, no compromising God's word, amen?\\

Donna, you're reading only PART of what God says, and quoting only the part that proves your point.

John, we don't have to go to school to learn YOUR man-made creeds. All we have to do is read your postings.
---Cluny on 5/10/10


Rod4Him...I agree regarding the "pastor" title that churches use. My husband and I prefer that people call us by our first names as that is Biblical. In the culture in which we minister it is customary to call the pastor's wife "Pastora" which is, of course, not at all Biblical, but is a tradition of honoring the pastor's wife. Since we are pentecostals most of the Christians with whom we fellowship call each other Brother and Sister. Using the term pastor is a very hard habit for people in a church to break.
---KarenD on 5/10/10


Friendly_Blogger:

You wrote: The absolute minimum credentials for any full time pastor as a Master of Divinity form an accredited Main Line Seminary. There are no exceptions.

Where do you get this from? It certainly isn't anywhere in the Bible (in fact, the terms Master of Divinity and Seminary aren't in the Bible either). As such, such qualifications are, at best, a man-made tradition.
---StrongAxe on 5/10/10


He blessed you John, may he continue.
Like Paul, GOD can use even over educated idiots. Not saying you are one....but, I've met many...who studied but never learned at the feet of the "only" Rabbi/teacher.

"Cemetary" is a more proper term for seminary.
---Trav on 5/10/10

AMEN TRAV!

Learning Greek, Hebrew, History etc. No need to go to a "Cementary"
If you are called, you will just pick up a book and learn.

So why have Seminary??? To train an idiots to teach their manmade creeds, Lutherism, Rcc, Orthodoxy etc.

And you see the Parrots here repeat their Demon-nation religions and not G-ds religion/truth!

Blasphemy G-d with heresy of their manmade traditions.
---John on 5/10/10


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Help me out here. Could we have some definitions of what a "calling" is?

Is it a desire? Is it discovering the strengths, abilities, and gifts that God has given? Is it a process? Does it happen in one day? Or is it a Saul/Paul experience? What is it?

As demonstrated by the useages of the word "called/calling," it is used all the time with perhaps different meanings to different people. It is a word taken for granted. Again, what is it?
---Rod4Him on 5/10/10


Naturally, the school alone is not enough - though one would hope that the school (seminary) would be able to weed out people who were not able to be a good pastor, and logically to check whether their calling was genuine

But the main point is the calling, which is followed by school, and then, to what particular type of work is the pastor called (one pastor I know in Greece appears to have one special gift - speaking to immigrants and refugees - and God showed him his gifts/calling after many years as a church pastor, and now he does what he loves, what the refugees love, and God is clearly using him in a great work!)
---peter3594 on 5/10/10


\\Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men..\\

Cluny said: No, they were not. They studied directly under Christ for 3 years, remember.

Cluny, #1 I took that scripture right out of the bible, so you're saying the bible has an error in it, right? That whoever wrote the book of Acts, made a mistake in using the wrong words, right?
#2 Cluny-When Peter denied Jesus and said, "I never knew you" he was telling the truth. The difference in Peter's life was when he got the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts Ch 2) that's when the anointing came upon him and CHANGED him and TAUGHT him.
---Donna5535 on 5/10/10


The rest is just Hogwash, Baloney, taught by men. EVERY seminary out there teaches it own man made agendas, nothing more! They school you for their church views only! ... Thank G-d he reschooled me in the truth, as he did with Saul!

ALL GARBAGE!!!!

AMEN DARLENE!!!!!!
---JOHN on 5/10/10

He blessed you John, may he continue.
Like Paul, GOD can use even over educated idiots. Not saying you are one....but, I've met many...who studied but never learned at the feet of the "only" Rabbi/teacher.

"Cemetary" is a more proper term for seminary.
---Trav on 5/10/10


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Cluny #3--about Paul. So his education turned him into killing Christians for MANY years UNTIL God got a hold of him, what does that say? Come on now, I'm preaching good....it was the HOLY SPIRIT who taught Paul God's ways.

Paul said, "I did not come with persuasive words, but in the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT."

I know you are smart, but you gotta stick to what scripture says. I am the dumb donkey that sticks to what God says, nothing else, no compromising God's word, amen?
---Donna5535 on 5/10/10


BTW--please notice that the expression is "try a vocation", not "try on a vocation."

The two terms do NOT mean the same things, and I did not say the latter.

A possible vocation to ministry is "tried" in seminary. Ability to complete the studies well is a sign, but only one, that the candidate has a vocation.

Among other signs, the professors and spiritual authorities being confident (which takes time) that someone indeed has a vocation (is called) to ordained ministry.

Historically, the original "vocatio" was when the bishop or archdeacon called your name to come forward and be ordained at the Eucharistic Liturgy.

THIS is the only way to know one is truly called.
---Cluny on 5/10/10


\\Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men..\\

No, they were not. They studied directly under Christ for 3 years, remember.
---Cluny on 5/10/10

\\What about Paul? Where did he go to school?\\

I forgot to mention that St. Paul studied under Gamaliel, one of the foremost scholars of his day. (I think he's referred to as a "tanna" in the Talmud, I know he's quoted as an authority.) ---Cluny on 5/10/10

Nice bit of steak there Cluny....mmmm, don't mind if I do. Just right, by the way. The Lords cut, you say. Isn't that a sword you are turning the meat with....interesting.
Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.
---Trav on 5/10/10


I agree with Cluny.

I have a friend who graduated from seminary and was a "pastor" for years, when he discovered it was not a fit for him.

I have heard of doctors and such that no longer practice in their trained fields because it wasn't a fit.

I think this "called" is a misnomer which leads to some misconceptions.

Timothy is clear that a person can "desire" that position, but they must "qualify." If that "desire" is "called," ok, I can buy that. However, call it that, "I desire to be an overseer," not, "I am called."

BTW, Karen, you have let people know that "you were called."
---Rod4Him on 5/10/10


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\\What about Paul? Where did he go to school?\\

I forgot to mention that St. Paul studied under Gamaliel, one of the foremost scholars of his day. (I think he's referred to as a "tanna" in the Talmud, I know he's quoted as an authority.) From Gamaliel, St. Paul learned a certain way of thinking and logic that is reflected in his letters, especially Romans.

St. Paul was also quite learned in Greek literature and letters, and probably Latin as well, since he was a Roman citizen.
---Cluny on 5/10/10


KarenD, about "knowing them by their fruit" is talking about professing believers and is not specifically "pastors." Although, I agree that overseers are people who desire that position and people acknowledge that "by the overseer's fruit/qualifications." They are because they are, not because of this mystical "calling" that is totally subjective.

BTW, I have never met a "pastor" that didn't inform me one way or another that they were "called." Why else do people use that phrase as a given without much thought? They also expect to be called "pastor," in contrast to scripture.

Maybe "called" needs to be defined. What is that?
---Rod4Him on 5/10/10


What about Paul? Where did he go to school? Damascus road, right? When God took the scales off of his eyes, he became the greatest apostle.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of GAMALIEL, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

and the lord
---francis on 5/10/10


\\Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men..\\

No, they were not. They studied directly under Christ for 3 years, remember.

"Trying a vocation" means to test an individual who has a subjective feeling that he's "called" to see that he really is called by God. If he is, others will be convinced of it.

I might add that graduation from a seminary does NOT guarantee ordination. And some of the holiest priests I've known never saw the inside of one.
---Cluny on 5/10/10


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Moderator, I have to disagree with you here. Acts 4:13 says - Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled, and they took knowledge of them,

Peter and John were unlearned and ignorant men...yet they had the anointing of God on them so powerfully that Peter's shadow was healing people.

What about Paul? Where did he go to school? Damascus road, right? When God took the scales off of his eyes, he became the greatest apostle.

Do you really think one needs to go to school to be able to Teach the Word? Paul taught not with words but with the Power of the Holy Spirit. I would say that it's the school of the Holy Spirit that one would attend, amen?
---Donna5535 on 5/10/10


Going to Seminary for a Masters of Divinity (MDV) program is anything bit trying out a vocation. It is an exceptionally vigorous three year academic program of study to train a competent pastor to start a carrier. It will involve mastering Hebrew, Greek, Latin and German [Luther wrote in German] the dominant New Testament textual commentaries are in Latin and German. You are going to Study the old and new Testament, Hermeneutics, church history and a lot of supplementary courses, you have to know about contemporary cult movements. If you plan to do any Christian Counseling you are going to have an additional curriculum on tom of the MDV and all of that is on top of a BA or BS. This are the minimum qualifications for any legitimate pastor.
---Friendly_Blogger on 5/10/10


Rod4Him...When God calls a person to pastor you will know it. As the Bible says....you will know them by their fruits." A true called of God minister will not be out there enriching himself in the worldly goods. A true called of God minister will not go around telling people that he is called of God either.
---KarenD on 5/10/10


Although the terminology is different, "trying on a vocation" has some merit. As with any occupation, people many times find out if the vocation is a fit.

However, this "called" to a pastor is strange. How does one know if a person is called? Because they say so. The implication is that if such a person is called, the rest of us are supposed to listen to them.

Sorry, but I see this "called" to the pastor as a person with the audacity to get up front and tell people that God personally "called" them, but not the laity, and then these pastors tell the laity what to do. Sounds more like a narcisist.

No doubt many of these people are sincere.
---Rod4Him on 5/9/10


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DARLENE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

The rest is just Hogwash, Baloney, taught by men. EVERY seminary out there teaches it own man made agendas, nothing more! They school you for their church views only! G-d has nothing to do with Seminaries.

I know! I AM a pastor, a rabbi, a theologian. Nice to know history and culture etc, But G-d reveals truth to infants, he won't reveal to the intellectual. Thank G-d he reschooled me in the truth, as he did with Saul!

Just how educated were the 12 Apostles Jesus chose. I don't remember him asking what Seminary they went to. Because seminaries teach the traditions of men as doctrine(Mark 7:7) Then the pollution gets passed on the demon-ination.

ALL GARBAGE!!!!

AMEN DARLENE!!!!!!
---JOHN on 5/10/10


KarenD:

Yes, while it is true that either God calls you or he doesn't, it's also true that most people don't have such a clear understanding of God's voice to be able to discern this immediately. (If that were true, we wouldn't be having constant religious quarrels, wars, an schisms. Even in the New Testament, look at Paul quarreling with Mark so much they couldn't travel together, and Paul rebuking Peter).

So when one THINKS that one hears from God, the best one can do is to act tentatively to see whether such a word or calling is confirmed in other ways.
---StrongAxe on 5/9/10


One challenge a person has in going to a Bible College/seminary are the teachings taught. For example, if the school teaches that one can lose their salvation that's what most of the students believe. If one goes to a school of a different persausion, that's what they believe.

It depends on what a person learns to how good the education is.

I suggest that a good secular education is needed with maybe a Bible School education second. The person needs to know how to read, study, and write.

Seminaries generally teach "systems of belief" rather than a relationship with the Living God.
---Rod4Him on 5/9/10


I agree with moderator. A Seminary education will not diminish a true call from God.
A good BIBLICAL seminary will teach the rules for interpreting scripture, so that passion and enthusiasm alone will not lead to erroneous teachings. These "rules" in no way hinder the leading of the Holy Spirit.
There are professional skills a pastor needs in order to counsel, guide and lead his church responsibly.

There were many gifted and anointed preachers and teachers in the past who served without much formal education. But a preacher today will likely need to minister to the educated as well as the uneducated. He will surely lose some who need his message, if his speech and general knowledge show him to be poorly educated.
---Donna66 on 5/9/10


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---StrongAxe on 5/9/10
The reason why Paul was able to write such concise letters as Romans and Hebrews was that he was well educated and well versed in apologetics. (What book do you read this?)
Note that much more of common Christian beliefs are based on the writings of Paul(to Gentiles) than those of Peter, James,(legalist to Israel) etc.
---michael_e on 5/9/10


The absolute minimum credentials for any full time pastor as a Master of Divinity form an accredited Main Line Seminary. There are no exceptions.
---Friendly_Blogger on 5/9/10


NOT!!!! This is absolutely not the truth. In fact, it is hogwash!


One of the purposes of seminary is to "try a vocation", as the saying goes, to see if the person is indeed called.
---Cluny on 5/9/10

Now that is a strange phrase - "try a vocation"! Either a minister is called or not. Only God does that. It isn't something you "try out".

I have nothing against ministers getting an education. But, all the education in the world won't help a minister that is not called of God.
---KarenD on 5/9/10


No. If they are truly called by God, God will show them what to do. the bible IS the textbook, I know plenty of pastors who went to Seminary school & are NOT in the word of God. They are teaching from the bibel, but in the "mans"traditional teachings,NOT how God has it Yes it is good for education, & if you can afford it,do it, but if you can't you can still be called of God. School is made by man & it's not up to them for your calling, but God calls you.
---candice on 5/9/10


The absolute minimum credentials for any full time pastor as a Master of Divinity form an accredited Main Line Seminary. There are no exceptions.
---Friendly_Blogger on 5/9/10


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michael_e:

The reason why Paul was able to write such concise letters as Romans and Hebrews was that he was well educated and well versed in apologetics. Note that much more of common Christian beliefs are based on the writings of Paul than those of Peter, James, etc.
---StrongAxe on 5/9/10


I agree with Darlene.
---a_friend on 5/9/10


The Apostle Paul Was "Schooled then called.
Then had to forget his formal schooling, then he was Schooled by the Master professor
---michael_e on 5/9/10




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