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Explain Gospel Of Grace

Using the principle of asking and answering the questions, WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, AND TO WHOM, do you know the differences between the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was given only to the Jews, and the Gospel of Grace, which was given to both Jew and Gentile?

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 ---Rob on 5/12/10
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>frances, can you show anywhere the CHURCH is referred to as JACOB?
---kathr4453 on 5/17/10

Sure.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
---francis on 5/18/10


No human mind and comprehend the grace of God.
The grace of God truly runs deeper than we can ever understand now, after death maybe!!
---mima on 5/18/10


Let's define GRACE. God's Riches At Christ's Expense!

Being saved by GRACE is saved by HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION LIFE....Galatians explains GRACE, No longer I but CHRIST IN ME Again Paul tells us in Col 1 CHRIST IN YOU the Hope of Glory.

So for someone to say Grace is God picking your name out of a hat does NOT fit in with what Scripture

If (GRACE) is not Clearly defined according to scripture ONLY , it's cultish. Grace is NOT Christ jumping IN ME without my consent. Grace is the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Salvation comes when I/you believe BY FAITH Christ died and rose again for your sin. Romans 10:9-10 is the way to salvation according to scripture!
---kathr4453 on 5/18/10


Steven G, I don't know where your puppy story has anything to do with edifying believers. Maybe you like puppies better then believers, because your story of the puppy is better then the stories you have about believers.
---MarkV. on 5/17/10


Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

are you expecting Jesus to do something special for israel after his death on the cross?
---francis on 5/17/10

>frances, can you show anywhere the CHURCH is referred to as JACOB? Not even in Galatains does Paul make any analogy to
the Church being JACOB, Jacob is ISRAEL after the FLESH, the father of the 12 Tribes, not the Spirit. The Spiritual body of Christ is not divided into 12 spiritual tribes of Israel.

the prophesy of Isaiah 14 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel and physical land. The Body of Christ was NEVER promised to be brought back to any land.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/10




aka_joseph, I cannot find any teacher who does not say Paul was speaking of himself( modestly in humility)--kathr4453 on 5/17/10

That's because you
---aka_joseph on 5/17/10


Michael,

That is enough for me again.
---aka_joseph on 5/17/10
Thank you
---michael_e on 5/17/10


---MarkV. on 5/17/10 You are right, I stand corrected, word for word it is not in Rom 11. but using Rom 11 israel's future with the prophecy pertaining to trib and millennial reign, Israel will lead and not follow
---michael_e on 5/17/10


MarkV, a certain man visits his friend only on the friend's birthday. One year the man gave a newly born puppy as a gift. During that year, the puppy grew to be a husky one year old. The man came to visit his friend again and exclaimed how fast the puppy grew. The friend replied that it didn't grow that fast. The man saw the puppy twice, when it was a newly born puppy and when it was one year old. The friend, on the other hand, saw the puppy grow gradually.
---Steveng on 5/17/10


The Church has already been DELIVERED from ths present evil age. We're waiting for our SAVIOR, not DELIVERER.
--kathr4453 on 5/17/10

Are you guys Krazy or just crazy?
What kind of theology is that?

The savious and deliverer are one and the same.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

are you expecting Jesus to do something special for israel after his death on the cross?
---francis on 5/17/10




RE: 2Co 12:2-4
aka_joseph, I cannot find any teacher who does not say Paul was speaking of himself( modestly in humility) . I'm really not sure what the problem is here. Paul certainly was not talking about John when he wrote Revelation, for that was many years after Paul's death.

God revealed things to Paul as He did John. What Paul did was pass what was lawful onto us, the Mystery of the Body of Christ, and those who become members of His Body. No such doctrine is found in the OT about the BRIDE/BODY OF CHRIST.

Zechariah 12-14 make no such comments about earthly man and women becoming HIS BODY. HIS BODY,The Church, (the Saints) will actually be coming back WITH HIM, stated at least three times in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/10


Michael,

That is enough for me again.
---aka_joseph on 5/17/10


The prophecies that God has provided are quite vast and detailed about the kingdom in which Jesus Christ will reign on the earth from Jerusalem. There are those who would claim that the kingdom prophecies are only to be interpreted allegorically. They say all these events are figurative and try to sweep their literal fulfillment under the rug. They despise the prophecies about the future prominence of the nation of Israel. They label as carnal, those who believe the literal meaning of the kingdom prophecies. What could be more spiritual than faith? Taking God at His Word? What could be more carnal than assuming God didn't mean what He said, and then trying to nullify His Word with the doctrine of men?
---kathr4453 on 5/17/10


aka_joseph on 5/17/10 When my son or daughter needs correction, do I ignore it in the name of building them up? .
(What names do you use on your children in correcting them?)

My question is that if you permit bad behavior in deference to correcting (when you can)in the name of Truth, do you really love your sister? We are our brother's keepers.

Kathr is referring to 2Co 12:2-4 and I can understand why should did not include the v. number
aka is this your idea of correcting with love?
---michael_e on 5/17/10


Michael E, let me make something clear, I do believe that Israel is going to be save in the future. That I know already. What you said was that what Kathr stated was found in chapter 11 of Romans.
And no where does it say anyone is going to lead anyone. Here is what you posted,
"---kathr4453 on 5/14/10 In the earthly Kingdom however JEWS will be the head, not the tail ..and Gentiles will be in submission to Jews and Israel and most of all Christ. Can you not see these differences in Zechariah 12-14?

Kath, Rom 11 backs up what you are saying."

Nowhere is anything found that says what she quote in Chapter 11. That is adding to Scripture what is not there.
---MarkV. on 5/17/10


MarkV. on 5/16/10
Romans 11:26 All Israel? Not hardly, just believers
Deut.28:13 Zech 8:22,23
Zech.13:8,9 1/3 a remnant through the fires of Tribulation, the wrath, the vexation)...
Jere31:31 "Behold, the days come, (set in concrete) that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"(All Israel.) 32,33Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers.. `After those days,..`I will put my law in their inward parts,.. and will be their God, and they shall be my people.'" 34. "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,.. for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
---michael_e on 5/17/10


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Steven G, don't you ever have something good to say to believers? Everyday it is the same old thing, they are terrible, they follow satan, they do not believe in the spirit, they go to satanic churches, they read the Bible with numbers, they learn from man, they do not read Bible only and so on.
One of this days you should be able to say something to edify the brothers and sisters, when that day is, I can only pray for and maybe God will change your thinking. I suppose you are the only believer doing everything right.
---MarkV. on 5/17/10


If you don't see Rom 11 as Israel' future, there would be no point explaining
---michael_e on 5/15/10

I don't understand how anyone CAN'T see Israel's future here. Paul clearly makes distinctions.

What is really revealing, and backed up by Zechariah 12-14, Romans 11 states out of SION (KJV and correctly stated) a DELIVERER will come and all Israel will be saved. The KEY word here is DELIVERER, as you can also note in Revelation.

The Church has already been DELIVERED from ths present evil age. We're waiting for our SAVIOR, not DELIVERER.

However, only the Holy Spirit can enlighten you on that!
---kathr4453 on 5/17/10


It is Monday morning, and I like to start my day with a good laugh. This question does give a good laugh. Gospel of kingdom to jews, gospel of grace to jews and gentiles.
thats just funny.

Where in the world did anyone come up with that idea?

The goapel was first preached to Adam by Jesus and included grace, and the restoration of all things, including the kingdom/ eden.

So yes it is very laughable to hear someone say that the gospel message is or was divided
by kingdom and grace, or jews and gentiles.
---francis on 5/17/10


michael_e //(I try to build up rather than criticize, call names and tear down)///

Correct does not mean criticize, call names and tear down. You know that.

When my son or daughter needs correction, do I ignore it in the name of building them up? No. That can be worse.

It all comes down to your willingness to stand up for God's whole Word or man's doctrine using the Word.

My question is that if you permit bad behavior in deference to correcting (when you can)in the name of Truth, do you really love your sister? We are our brother's keepers.
---aka_joseph on 5/17/10


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JackB: "Israel claimed to know God but were far from him. God blinded Israel to the messiah because they didnt seek Gods righteousness by FAITH. They sought it by their own lawfulness."

This surely sounds like the christians today, for christians are walking the same path as the Israelites did long ago.
---Steveng on 5/16/10


Michael e, I do see Israel's future there but nowhere do I see that they are leading anyone. Or that anyone is following them. Or anyone ahead or superior to anyone else. That is why I ask you to show where. I was positive nothing like that was in the context of chapter 11 of Romans. If I am wrong, and I could be wrong, please direct me to where this is mentioned.

Jack B, those statements that you make were great. I see the same thing about Israel.
---MarkV. on 5/16/10


---aka_joseph on 5/15/10 Are you trying to say that all Gentiles will be saved. (Don't recall saying that,If I did it was a mistake)
Paul, who was a Jew,(and roman) brought the gospel to the Gentles.(By the Gospel of Grace)
the Jews who believe in Christ the Messiah will be saved.(By the Kingdom Gospel)
All unbeievers to be judged by(Rom. 2:16)
I noticed that you applauded Kath on her use of Scripture, but did not correct her on her misuse of Acts 18:28.(I try to build up rather than criticize, call names and tear down)
---michael_e on 5/16/10


kathr4453 #2 //Paul spent 14 years on the side of a mountain being taught, not by man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, then Paul was carried up to Paradise, shown things he said was unlawful to utter.//

Kathr is referring to 2Co 12:2-4 and I can understand why should did not include the v. number.

3. In the next verse, Paul writes, "And I know that this man was caught up into paradise..."

4. in the 4th verse, "and he [not Paul] heard things that cannot be told..."

5. In the first verse of the chapter, Paul talks of visions and revelation. He was convicted on the road to Damascus (not abducted) and began proclaiming Jesus, the Son of God, 1 day after the three of being blinded.
---aka_joseph on 5/16/10


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kathr4453 #1 //Paul spent 14 years on the side of a mountain being taught, not by man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, then Paul was carried up to Paradise, shown things he said was unlawful to utter.//

Kathr is referring to 2Co 12:2-4 and I can understand why should did not include the v. number.

1. Paul said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago" not that he studied in the mountains for 14 years.

Anyway, Act 9:20 "And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God." Straightaway is not 14 years.

2. Why did Paul then say, "...I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up..." instead of, "I was caught up..."?
---aka_joseph on 5/16/10


-MarkV. on 5/15/10 Teach me today so that I can learn whom I am going to follow, I thought we followed Christ not man.
We do follow the risen Christ as Paul followed Him as our pattern 1 tim 1:16
1 cor.416, 11:1 Phil 3:13
If you don't see Rom 11 as Israel' future, there would be no point explaining
---michael_e on 5/15/10


What is so confusing about Romans and the explanation it gives for Gods "election"?

Israel claimed to know God but were far from him. God blinded Israel to the messiah because they didnt seek Gods righteousness by FAITH. They sought it by their own lawfulness.

There are certain Jews that God called out of Israel (the ELECT,Paul for example, "from his mother's womb") to know the truth of Christ and teach it to the Gentiles. He still does this.

When all Gentiles that will accept Christ have come in, God will remove the blinders from Israel and they will also believe in Jesus.

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL."
---JackB on 5/15/10


One of the most ironic things is God blinded Israel because they sought righteousness NOT by faith, but "as it were the works of the law". -- Romans 9:30-33

God cant be more clear that He rejects those who try to impress him with obedience to the law. Thats NOT why the law was given to Moses. It was given to prove us GUILTY. To show us our condemnation and our NEED for a Savior who did FOR US what we could not.

How many Christians in these blogs do the very same thing (rely upon obedience for righteousness instead of faith in Christ) and believe they have salvation?
---JackB on 5/15/10


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Michael e, can you direct me to where in Romans 11 it states what you and Kathr are saying? I have read that chapter many times and do not see those comments or anything to suggest anyone is going to be ahead or ruler or anyone in submission to another. I have no clue where those comments came from. Teach me today so that I can learn whom I am going to follow, I thought we followed Christ not man.
---MarkV. on 5/15/10


Obviously, Jew and Gentile were not always on the same level in God's dealings. In "time past", before God brought in this dispensation of His grace,Gentiles were "far off", "without Christ", and "without God in the world". So It is erroneous, to assume that this dispensation of grace has always been in effect. In "time past", it wasn't.
---michael_e on 5/15/10


//Jesus in His earthly ministry never revealed it. He offered the Kingdom to the NATION OF ISRAEL in the book of Acts, and they rejected it.//---michael_e on 5/14/10

Agreed. But, there are plenty of examples throughout the WHOLE NT of Jews and Gentiles that believe. Are you trying to say that all Gentiles will be saved. Paul, who was a Jew, brought the gospel to the Gentles. Those Gentiles who believe will be saved, an the Jews who believe in Christ the Messiah will be saved. That's what Paul was bringing to the WORLD. It also says that in Scripture around the few verses that you keep cherry picking. I noticed that you applauded Kath on her use of Scripture, but did not correct her on her misuse of Acts 18:28.
---aka_joseph on 5/15/10


---kathr4453 on 5/14/10 In the earthly Kingdom however JEWS will be the head, not the tail ..and Gentiles will be in submission to Jews and Israel and most of all Christ. Can you not see these differences in Zechariah 12-14?

Kath, Rom 11 backs up what you are saying
---michael_e on 5/15/10


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//Acts 18:28
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.// ---kathr4453 on 5/14/10

"For 'he'..." in that verse refers to Apollos not Paul. The narrative of Paul ended in v. 23 and v.24 started the narrative of Apollos. Look at the verses yourself and do not let another just cite one verse to support one man's doctrine.

//We must understand what we teach and preach. Our mind is being renewed through God's word. It's the WORD of God, not our words, that is empowered by the Holy Spirit.// ---kathr4453 on 5/14/10
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


In the earthly Kingdom however JEWS will be the head, not the tail ..and Gentiles will be in submission to Jews and Israel and most of all Christ. Can you not see these differences in Zechariah 12-14?
---kathr4453 on 5/14/10
There is no such thing as the JEWS being the head of anything, Deuteronomy 28:1-2 reveal which thing be the head. See also Isaiah 9:14-16.
By allegiance and subjection is a man, any man, a head or a tail before God. It has and always being the same, "if thou"..., "thy God will"...
---Nana on 5/14/10


When Paul preached grace, it was NOT Paul preaching this, he had NO knowledge of this, it was Christ through him that preached it. ONLY Christ had the knowledge of this, so ONLY He gets the glory - NOT Paul a mere man.
---Leslie on 5/14/10

Paul spent 14 years on the side of a mountain being taught, not by man, but by revelation of Jesus Christ, then Paul was carried up to Paradise, shown things he said was unlawful to utter.


Acts 18:28
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.



We must understand what we teach and preach. Our mind is being renewed through God's word. It's the WORD of God, not our words, that is empowered by the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/10


---aka_joseph on 5/14/10 You can put a spin on any words that you want. I have played that futile game with you before
I am not spinning anything and this is not a game.)
I believe that Jesus Christ, God's Only Begotten Son, lived on earth, was crucified, buried, and rose again to fulfill the Scriptures that ALL the world has salvation.1Cor 15:1-4(I believe this too.)
But the only place you find it is Christ revealing it to Paul
Jesus in His earthly ministry never revealed it. He offered the Kingdom to the NATION OF ISRAEL in the book of Acts, and they rejected it.
---michael_e on 5/14/10


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Rob - #2 You must understand the concept of THROUGH. If we lay hands on someone and pray for their healing, it is NOT us who heals them, we have NO power to do so, it is Christ through us that heals the person. The same is with preaching. When Paul preached grace, it was NOT Paul preaching this, he had NO knowledge of this, it was Christ through him that preached it. ONLY Christ had the knowledge of this, so ONLY He gets the glory - NOT Paul a mere man.
---Leslie on 5/14/10


aka_joseph.To say, I cannot hear you puzzles me.

When we are crucified with Christ our identity as well as history ended at Calvary. NO LONGER I but Christ in me...We died with Christ and are raised a New Creature IN CHRIST, as a member of HIS BODY. We don't know what we will be, but we know that we will be like Him ,

This is a great mystery as Paul tells us in Ephesians 5. All of Ephesians beginning in chapter and verse 1 leading to Chapter 5, this becoming a New creature In Christ. Without this understanding Ephesians can make no real sense to you. It may sound pretty, but pretty void of depth and understanding.

In the Earthly Kingdom Reign, Men and Women, Jew and Gentile of flesh and blood WILL ENTER.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/10


Kath,

I understand that one day, I will be subject to Noahide Laws. To discuss 613 mitzvot in 125 words is difficult, so I will address the 6 given in the Edenic paradigm and the 7th given after the Flood: Prohibition of Idolatry, Murder, Theft, Sexual immorality, Blasphemy, Dietary Law, and the Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts).

I can do the first 6. 6 might be hard because I just love to chew on a cow when it is still mooowing. However, 7 is the tricky one. You see, one, us dogs are not permitted by the Talmud to observe the 613 mitzvot at this point. Two, historically, the Jews are good are not as good as My Messiah at interperting Law. and they get naaastyyyy...
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


Trav2 ...most denom/doctrines say GOD loves everybody. Sriptures says Esau he hates. (I don't follow denominational/doctrinal lines. I do read the Bible.

I grew in a Catholic school. My only solace from getting beat up or made fun of everyday was when we had mass. But, unlike the people around me, I listed to the homily (sermon). I kept hearing about a group of people who were getting picked on and beat up unjustifiably. Then, the Catholics made a mistake. They opened the Bible. It was like when King Josiah read the scriptures that had been lost....I pay attention to Scripture. The road has been long and hard, but here I am still learning about Jesus Christ, Teacher and Messiah. A side that neither camp seems to be on.)
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


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Rob - I did NOT change my answer from my first comment. Jesus did preach grace but He did it though Paul. Jesus did not die and rise at the time, so therefore He would have looked like a loonatic preaching grace, since grace ONLY comes through Christ crucified. When Paul had his encounter with Jesus in the spirit, Jesus showed him what he needed to preach. Paul then said I preach Christ crucified, and anyone who preaches something else, let him be cursed. Therefore, Christ DID preach grace, through Paul.
---Leslie on 5/14/10


kath, I could not hear you. I was standing on the other side of the verse. My point is that, no matter the past, Scripture says (not me)that "There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

I understand about the past. I do not get it all. For instance, I also know the theory of how a radio works, but I cannot open one up and tell what each component does. But, I still enjoy the sound, especially when they are playin', "There is Power, Power, wonder' workin' Power in the Blood of the Lamb." Come on, everbody, we are all one.
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


1. Start asking the "Only Teacher" Christ. (I did/do/will...but, I have to feed off scraps remember? Truth is hard to come by. There are not many Jews or dogs willing to share...oh...except One if He marvels at your faith.)

2. Compare with Scriptural witness anything found or said with what was prophecied. Other wise you could find yourself going against those GOD chose. No light in that direction (If dogs cannot go with the chosen, what choice do I have but to go away?)

3. Pay attention as you are comparing to what is not stated in Scripture.....it speaks too. (That goes without saying :~)...
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What is this ancient secret?
---aka_joseph on 5/13/10

The MYSTERY kept secret was/is that in the Church, His Body there is neither Jew or Gentile, but a wholly NEW Man without distinction between Jew of Gentile. NOTHING even remotely expressed in the OT ever put Jew and Gentile on the exact same ground, not even prophesied for the coming earthly Kingdom reign.

In the earthly Kingdom however JEWS will be the head, not the tail ..and Gentiles will be in submission to Jews and Israel and most of all Christ. Can you not see these differences in Zechariah 12-14?
---kathr4453 on 5/14/10


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If the lamp is mostly covered, then how do the lost find there way? and If you do not have time, please do not comment on my use/misuse of scripture because ..---aka_joseph on 5/11/10

I said it wasn't fair to you. Don't want warning....will never again.
Start by:
1. Start asking the "Only Teacher" Christ.
2. Compare with Scriptural witness anything found or said with what was prophecied. Other wise you could find yourself going against those GOD chose. No light in that direction.
3. Pay attention as you are comparing to what is not stated in Scripture.....it speaks too.
1 example: most denom/doctrines say GOD loves everybody. Sriptures says Esau he hates. Kinda negates their testimoney?
---Trav on 5/14/10


Not only does the verse from Gal not preclude anyone,

Which is it does it or does it not preclude anyone, make up your mind ---michael_e on 5/14/10

Preclude?
What you are missing here, unless you just do not care.... is does, other scripture witness this? Do the prophets? All of them?
No,they don't, but check.
Galatians 4
4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

The only one ever under covenant or law...divorced by the law was Israel. All of Israel.
Paul, preached to the "ethnos/nations" the divorced of Israel.
---Trav on 5/14/10


michael_e,

You can put a spin on any words that you want. I have played that futile game with you before.

I want everyones who reads this:

I believe that Jesus Christ, God's Only Begotten Son, lived on earth, was crucified, buried, and rose again to fulfill the Scriptures that ALL the world has salvation.
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


aka_joseph on 5/14/10 There are Scripture verses that Jewish groups use of that preclude the Gentiles, there are verses that Gentile groups use to preclude the Jews.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Not only does the verse from Gal not preclude anyone,

Which is it does it or does it not preclude anyone, make up your mind
Incidentally you might want to compare the gospel Paul preached for your salvation to what the 12 preached for the saving of Israel
---michael_e on 5/14/10


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//I dont know why people are arguing over Paul like he somehow twisted the teachings of Christ.

This is the devil's work. Once he gets you to doubt part of Gods word, he'll tear you apart.//---JackB on 5/14/10

Jack, it seems you know exactly why. :~)

If you or anyone else need to get a good dose of irony and Paul's role, read Acts 19. I especially like when the seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, tried to use Jesus' Name to exorcise one demon, who ended up kicking there butt without prejudice.

This is also good to cite to Jewish elitists that think Gentile dogs have no need to apply.
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


Rob - Jesus NEVER preached we are saved by grace, however, Paul did. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Paul had an experience with Jesus, where Jesus took him in the spirit to teach him all things that He (Jesus) wanted him (Paul) to teach. So in essance through Paul, Jesus did preach we are saved by grace through faith. The reason Jesus never preached it at His time was that He had not died and rose yet.
---Leslie on 5/13/10


I believe John is different than the first three Gospels. John states Jesus came full of GRACE and truth. Jesus prayer in John 17 touches on this MYSTERY, being ONE with God in Christ, and being Glorified together with Him. THIS is the Gospel of GRACE revealed to Paul as Paul reveals to us.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/10


This vse. [Gal 3:28] doesn't preclude anyone.
These verses do matt. 10:5, 15:24 Acts 2:14,22,36, 3:12, 4:10
---michael_e on 5/14/10

Not only does the verse from Gal not preclude anyone, it ties the verses that you cite together. So, does all the verses after Acts 4:10.

You do not have to repeat the same few verses again that you hang your theological hat on. There are not that many compared to the rest of the Bible. The LDS, SDAs, JWs, and Dispensers all do this cherry picking to support a false Gospel for those who are biblically illiterate for whatever reason.
---aka_joseph on 5/14/10


I dont know why people are arguing over Paul like he somehow twisted the teachings of Christ.

This is the devil's work. Once he gets you to doubt part of Gods word, he'll tear you apart.

Paul like ALL the men that wrote the Bible are ordained by God.

Paul was born again by the Spirit of Christ. How could he teach differently than Christ did?
---JackB on 5/14/10


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I can understand people not knowing there is a difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace.

I myself did not know there was a difference for way too many years.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, Jesus Messiah and King.

The Gospel of Grace, Christ The Savior.
---Rob on 5/14/10


This is a great question that is not easily answered or understood.
In the gospels both The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of God are used very similarily. One could ask, is there is difference? Which is which, and what is the difference.
However, one concept is that the Kingdom of Heaven/God is the relm in which God operates. Jesus was revealing God's Kingdom, it is in your hearts.
There is a sense that the Jews expected an earthly Kingdom and maybe is yet to come, hence dispensational theology.
The Gospel of Grace is salvation in/through Jesus Christ. This is the believer living in the relm of God, which is an heart issue lived out now on earth with an eternal hope in Christ.
---Rod4Him on 5/14/10


---aka_joseph on 5/13/10
There are Scripture verses that Jewish groups use of that preclude the Gentiles, there are verses that Gentile groups use to preclude the Jews.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
What is this ancient secret? Salvation to gentiles apart from Israel.
This vse. doesn't preclude anyone.
These verses do matt. 10:5, 15:24 Acts 2:14,22,36, 3:12, 4:10
---michael_e on 5/14/10


Grace?
John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
Matthew 7:11: "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"
Rob, if you are being gracious with one less fortunate, are you saying it would not be grace on your part unless you use the word grace?
John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:16: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
---Nana on 5/13/10


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Leslie, it is amazing how people will change what they previously wrote to something else when presented with scripture. This is a perfect example of people doing what is written in Romans 1:25a.

First you wrote Jesus preached them both and told us to preach them both.

Now you write Jesus NEVER preached we are saved by grace, however Paul did.

Leslie there is a big difference in saying Jesus preaching it Himself and the Apostle Paul preaching it.
---Rob on 5/13/10


---Rob on 5/13/10 This is part of the Mystery of the Gospel which for some reason most Churches avoid teaching like it is a plague.

Rob you are right on track for how to attain salvation in this age of Grace, kept secret since the world began.
---michael_e on 5/13/10

What is it that not understandable?

There are Scripture verses that Jewish groups use of that preclude the Gentiles, there are verses that Gentile groups use to preclude the Jews.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What is this ancient secret?
---aka_joseph on 5/13/10


---Rob on 5/13/10 This is part of the Mystery of the Gospel which for some reason most Churches avoid teaching like it is a plague.

Rob you are right on track for how to attain salvation in this age of Grace, kept secret since the world began.
---michael_e on 5/13/10


Acts 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power.
Apparently the kingdom gospel was/is preached to all.
Both gospels are part of the Gospel of Christ. It is all good news for all to hear.
---micha9344 on 5/13/10


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Rob - Jesus NEVER preached we are saved by grace, however, Paul did. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Paul had an experience with Jesus, where Jesus took him in the spirit to teach him all things that He (Jesus) wanted him (Paul) to teach. So in essance through Paul, Jesus did preach we are saved by grace through faith. The reason Jesus never preached it at His time was that He had not died and rose yet.
---Leslie on 5/13/10


The Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was preached to the Jews concerning the Kingdom, but the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King.

Leslie, om 5/12/10, you wrote "The Gospel of the Kingdon and the Gospel of Grace are the SAME Gospel given to both Jew and Gentile. Jesus preached them both and told us to preached them both.

Leslie, if this is true, please show where Jesus ever preached we are Saved by Grace.

Also, if they are the same Gospel, please explain what is written in Ephesians Chapters two and three?

This is part of the Mystery of the Gospel which for some reason most Churches avoid teaching like it is a plague.
---Rob on 5/13/10


Matthew 24-25 clearly make a distinction between Gentiles and Israel. Zechariah 12-14 parallel Matthew 24-25.

Acts 1:6-7 ****The Apostles ask Jesus if they were to preach the Kingdom to be restored to Israel. Jesus stated ONLY the Father KNOWS when that will happen. If in fact it were now, no such comment would have been made. Also note in Matthew 24-25 that again ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS. This is taking about the earthly Kingdom Reign for 1000 years, not the rapture of the Church, or Body of Christ who are neither Jew or Gentile. Identifying with Jesus in death and resurrection life is the Mystery of the Gospel of GRACE. NOT the Kingdom. Nothing about that at all in Matthew 24-25!
---kathr4453 on 5/13/10


//Kingdom Gospel for Israel// Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord,is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Matt 10:6,15:24 aCTS 2:36 Rom. 15:8
Jesus talks of true salvation not of race or ethnic origin but the heart:

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. It has been prophisied. Acts 3:21 Kingdom Gospel = Distinction between Israel and Gentile
Rom. 16:25 Gospel of Grace= No distinction
---michael_e on 5/13/10


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//Kingdom Gospel for Israel//

John 4:22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Talk about a twist. The Greek word actually used means 'orginated from' or 'of' for short. But, in the next verse, Jesus talks of true salvation not of race or ethnic origin but the heart:

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. It has been prophisied.

However, you cannot refute the verses that I cited last night unless.....you really do not believe in the Bible as God's word. Mark my word true believers will find out the hard way soon enough.
---aka_joseph on 5/13/10


micha9344 on 5/13/10
'but if we read them as they are wrote'

Maybe you missed the point, you quoted the
Kingdom Gospel. My point is in order to make Acts 2:36-38 sound like the Gospel of Grace it has to be twisted and assumptions made.
What peter preaches in Acts 2 & 3 is totally different than what Paul calls his Gospel in 1Cor.15:1-4
---michael_e on 5/13/10


In Matthew, the Promised EARTHLY Kingdom was announced by John the Baptist, but will not be totally fulfilled until the RISEN Glorified Christ returns at His second coming Zechariah 12-14, AFTER the Great Tribulation. When Jesus Reigns and Rules in person in Jerusalem, this will be Kingdom ((LAW)) and not Grace. Those entering the Earthly Kingdom will not be saying "I am crucified with Christ"((GRACE)) , however the Body of Christ WILL, and will actually accompany Christ at His Second Coming to Earth. Christ at His second coming will touch down to Earth at the Mount of Olives.

However the Church will meet Christ in the Clouds and there forever BE WITH HIM.

That's just ONE principle.
---kathr4453 on 5/13/10


'If we twist and mix the wording enough'
'Acts 2:36-38 Repent (All of you(Israel) for killing your messiah, be baptized(and then) you will recieve the HS. Then Jesus will come back and set up His Kingdom.' ---michael_e on 5/13/10
'but if we read them as they are wrote'
Acts 2:36-38 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---micha9344 on 5/13/10


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Kingdom Gospel For Israel

Acts 2:36-38 Repent (All of you(Israel) for killing your messiah, be baptized(and then) you will recieve the HS. Then Jesus will
come back and set up His Kingdom.

Gospel of Grace for both jew and gentile
What Paul calls my Gospel.
The simplest explanation is 1 Cor 15:1-4

If we twist and mix the wording enough we can make them sound the same, but if we read them as they are wrote, its plain to see they are different.
---michael_e on 5/13/10


//There are many false gospels being preach today. But there is only one gospel that Jesus taught// -Steveng on 5/12/10

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek[non-Jew].

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek[non-Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek [non-Jew] nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
---aka_joseph on 5/12/10


WHO- God the Father and His Son, Jesus
WHAT- Eternal Salvation
WHEN -Purchased on the cross, by the shed blood of Jesus, His suffereing and temporary
complete separation from God.
WHERE- Golgotha, Jerusalem
WHY- Because God loves us. But all have sinned. Sin is in the nature of mankind. And because the wages of sin is death. No one deserves God's love or can earn a place in Heaven.
HOW-- Jesus took the penalty deserved by sinful humans. 2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. He would impute His own rightousness to those who would believe.
To WHOM-- You, me, anyone who would repent of their sin and trust Him for their salvation.
---Donna66 on 5/12/10


The Jews could could enter the kingdom by:
the males being circumcised and all following a myriad of detailed laws of diet, ritual, behavior and offerings.

Their sins were not forgiven but "covered" by the blood of many prescribed animal sacrifices. Each year their High Priest would enter "the Holy of Holies" in the Temple and sacrifice for the sins of all the people in the past year.

Jesus became, HIMSELF the Perfect Sacrifice, the Lamb of God who purchased men's salvation, once for all, on the cross of Calvary. No more sacrifices or rituals or circumcision needed.
God's GRACE and Jesus sacrifice were sufficient for all who would believe.
---Donna66 on 5/12/10


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I agree with Leslie.
One example which ties both recipients to a common denominator:
Matthew 8:8-10:
"The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it."
"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
---Nana on 5/12/10


Acts 20:21-25 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me...neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Who, Where:Acts 20:16, What, Why:Acts 20:24-25, When:Acts 20:18, To Whom:Acts 20:21, How:Acts 20:25, Rom 10:14-17
---micha9344 on 5/12/10


There are many false gospels being preach today. But there is only one gospel that Jesus taught and that is the kingdom of God and, of course, how to get there.

Don't take the joy of being a christian any more complicated than what is necessary to get into heaven. It's one word that is in essence the fulfillment of all the laws and commandments. It's a word that christians know about, but rarely know how to apply it.

---
Praying you and yours peace of mind, joy of spirit, good health and an abundance of love to share with everyone you meet. In Jesus name.
---Steveng on 5/12/10


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