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Can Anyone Come To Christ

Can a person come to Christ while at enmity against God?

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 ---MarkV. on 5/18/10
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I never said that at all, Mark. Once again so you know where I stand!

---Jesus Christ died for the sins of ALL men
(fact)

---Jesus said the Father draws people to Him.
(fact) Otherwise we would be captives by satans will.

---God predestines people to be conformed to the image of Christ (fact)

---God has blinded and hardened certain men in history (fact)

---Gods will is that all men know the truth, come to repentance and be saved (fact)

The blindness that God brought upon the Jews was for what Mark? "...Because they sought it not by FAITH, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone, "
---JackB on 5/21/10


The only way for ALL of these Biblical truths to NOT contradict one another is for one other thing to be true.

Man has the ability to decide what he will believe when it is presented to him.

Satan has the world blind to keep them from believing at his will.

Mans eyes and ears are opened to Jesus Christ (by the power of God), when he hears the gospel. If he likes what he hears, he put his FAITH in that. If he doesnt, he rejects it.

And yes sir there ARE people who could hear such good news and not want to believe it.

1. Those who are so full of pride they wont accept that they arent already righteous.
2. Those who love their sin so much that they dont want to be changed
---JackB on 5/21/10


"It's hard for them to except the fact that God is God and that He has a right to do what He so desires with His creation."

Nah He CAN do what he wants with his creation. I dont think anyone is arguing that.

Just because someone doesnt agree with what you think God does with his creation doesnt limit Gods authority or power.

Youre assumption that I was different? ....does that mean you assumed that you could convert me and now youre angry because you see that you cant?
---JackB on 5/21/10


Oh and Mark if you choose to be Calvanist. Thats your decision.

It seems we hold a LOT of common beliefs all of which can lead people to Christ.

The difference is that some of Calvanist doctrine leads people away from Christ and it seems that you have yet to learn when it is appropriate to discuss things that should be kept amongst Christians and not told to the unbelieving so that it doesnt cause them to believe they have no hope.

That is just cruel. Thats kicking someone while they are down and Im sorry... that is NOT Godly.
---JackB on 5/21/10


markv, did you not notice how jack b phrases his sentences? do they remind you of someone? think markv.
---mary on 5/21/10




Jesus said, " It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father
Jesus spoke about the moral impotence of the flesh. He taught His disciples that the flesh "profits nothing." And:
"No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." It states a universal inability. The word "can" does not discribe permission, but power or ability.
---MarkV. on 5/21/10


Jack B, I thought you wanted to discuss Scripture. I gave you the Word of God, you read it and deny it. It does not fit what you believe so you call me a wolf in sheeps clothing for speaking on behalf of God and not man. I heard what you said to me on the other blog, you are no different then the rest. I thought you were. I glory in the Lord and not on myself. I know who had mercy on me, that was God. He gets all the glory, I get nothing.
You are not the only one who does that, all others who speak on behalf of man and his rights do the same thing. It's hard for them to except the fact that God is God and that He has a right to do what He so desires with His creation. It just shows the humanist nature still within them. Pride.
---MarkV. on 5/21/10


Many are the excuses for not witnessing to others about Christ. Many believe that a drunk cannot be saved while drunk, many state they do not want to embarrass anyone or annoy them by witnessing to them, and on and on the excuses go. Which is better to embarrass and annoy someone with our witness are never tell them how they may be saved. Truth is we all fall short(through ignorance or fear to fulfill our obligation, as Christians, to witness every opportunity we have.
---mima on 5/21/10


markv..
So this spiritual Israel would be the few Jews or remnant saved at Pentecost, and the unbelievers at that time would be physical israel?
---michael_e on 5/21/10


Jack B, 2: If you believe that you drew God to yourself, then so be it. If you want to believe you brought spiritual live to yourself, so be it. If you want to believe you brought light to God's Word, so be it. If you believe you changed your own filthy heart, so be it. If you believe you created genuine faith to believe in Christ, so be it. If you believe you can convict your own heart of sin in order to repent, so be it. If you believe that you can do all those things by your own self, then you are better man then me. Which makes you special because God gave you abilities He didn't give anyone else.
---MarkV. on 5/21/10




Jesus, the Son of God, came in the flesh to die and resurrect from the dead so the nations (Jew and Gentile) can have salvation.

To answer the blogs question, yes, that is what deliverance is all about.
---aka_joseph on 5/21/10


Michael e, there is an Israel after the flesh, and one after the Spirit. 1 Cor. 10:18 explains the one after the flesh, and what they were doing, and was talking to the Israel of the spirit when he said to them in verse 21, "you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons." He had just talked about the Israel of the flesh in verse 18. Now he is talking to the one in the Spirit.
Verse 22, "or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger then He?"
The others were already provoking the Lord, this Israel was been warned not to.
---MarkV. on 5/21/10


Mark, if you would rather spend more time here spreading election than the love that God has for the world then thats what you do.

Most of your posts are you defending your denomination and its beliefs. They arent even ON topic a lot of times.

Talking about predestination on a blog that was started by the friend of an atheist asking how to lead their friend to Christ? Seriously?
It was WAY over the line sir and thats why lost people see Christians the way they do.
As thumpers who dont show the love they preach. Yes I am HIGHLY upset right now.

It seems you are more concerned about converting people to Calvanism than helping them lead someone to Jesus Christ.

That DOES cause me to question you.
---JackB on 5/21/10


I suspect that you had assurance problems before you converted to Calvanism and now you dont because of what they have taught you about predestination.

The doctrine of predestination is supposed to give people who have placed their faith in Christ assurance that God already had a plan for them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

If a man rejects the truth of Christ, he voids that plan God had for his life.

Calvanists twist predestination to teach that God never wanted to save him in the first place.
Thats when it becomes a self-gratifying doctrine and its wrong.

What a travesty! To think how many have rejected God because of this teaching.

I pray that the Lord will deliver you soon, Mark.
---JackB on 5/21/10


Ive never once seen a person "elected" to an office that didnt want to first hold the position. If they were, once elected they could quit whenever they wanted to anyways.

How many 1000s of scriptures does God have to beg us to repent so we dont die, before it sinks in that WE STILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO DECIDE?

Repentance and faith is what God is looking for. He even helps us to believe.

Grace is what He gives in return for that.

We still cannot boast because He everything He gives to us by His grace is only given to us because the obedience of His Son, Jesus Christ. Faithful unto death.
---JackB on 5/21/10


"..., you've got to be kidding, what God are you reading about?"
That statement ridicules JackB and makes him out to be ignorant. We get as we give.
Jesus used an expression John 4:22: "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."
However he also said, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."
John 4:21: "Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."
That woman got re-educated, confirmed and became a believer, and others through her witness, no predestination and enmity vanished (Jew/Samaritan) through knowledge.
---Nana on 5/21/10


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2 points are missed in this question,first jesus is God,so when you come to him your coming to God,secondwe are or were all at enmity with God before being saved,thats why God sent jesus to die on the cross.
---tom2 on 5/21/10


Romans 15:8.... to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9And that the Nations/ethnos might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written,
---aka_joseph on 5/20/10

Well, this is why I post here. You give a great scripture. But, did not show the "AS IT WAS WRITTEN" witness. Which would be a prophet and will underscore as nothing else can.

Don't forget,to find this prophetic witness you have to apply the non-catholic translation of Gentile....which is Nations/Ethnos. Nations of whom? Ethnos of whom?
You think my post are about taking away. They are about contextual proof/witness/truth....not supposition denom one scripture, not supported by "AS IT WAS WRITTEN" prophets.
---Trav on 5/21/10


Jack B, I do not know why you would say such things to me if you do not know my heart and my love for Christ. You said,
"Dont let your lust for knowledge harden your heart to love. If that hasnt already happened"

You are now questioning my faith. I posted the blog so that in good terms, you and I could discuss this subject which was closed on another blog, about God. If you cannot reframe yourself from calling me something bad, or questioning my faith in Christ, then there is nothing for us as brothers to discuss. I leave you with peace.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


This statement, "He who has an ear...",a call to all, just as 2 Tim. 3:16, that all Scripture is "... by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:...".
No mistery, no secret enabling, no ear letting, just plain speaking:
John.18:20: "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world, I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing."
To those harming Jesus, who had not faith in Him, He spoke to them as if they had all the neccesary understanding to believe: John 18:23 "... If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?"
---Nana on 5/20/10


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Jack B, your all over the place its hard to keep up. You spoke about abiding in Christ. The word "Abide" means to remain, stay around. Which means the "remaining" is evidence that salvation has taken place. See 1 John 2:19.
Second, you said,
To reject this calling is to reject Gods predestined plan to conform them to the image of Christ. (Rom 8:29)" You suggest fallible man can stay the hand of God, you've got to be kidding, what God are you reading about? "Pre" means before in time, "destine or destination" means, the place toward which one is going or sent.
Predestination means, that before in time, God chose where people are going or sent.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


Dont let your lust for knowledge harden your heart to love.

If that hasnt already happened...
---JackB on 5/20/10


Because all men wont be saved that must mean that God didnt give them spiritual insight to believe in Christ in the first place????
No sir!!!

It is Gods will that:

All men be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
All should come unto repentance (2 Peter 3:9)
Christ died for ALL. (2 Cor 5:14)


To reject this calling is to reject Gods predestined plan to conform them to the image of Christ. (Rom 8:29)
Rejecting this would be the same sin that Esau committed when he sold his birthright! Why do you think God felt the way He did about Esau?

Romans explains that God brought partial blindness upon Israel so that the GENTILES can be saved!!! Dont apply that blindness to the Gentile world. That is NOT scriptural.
---JackB on 5/20/10


"When these words were spoken by God they were not spoken to the world at large, they were spoken to the Laodicean Church. "

speculation

Mark, faith does not produce fruit. Its the object of our faith that does. Jesus Christ is the vine.

John 15:4,5

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for
without me ye can do nothing.


Faith IN Christ brings us the faith OF Christ thing I mentioned from Gal 2:16. Its not OUR fruit, its HIS. HE is living in us.
---JackB on 5/20/10


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Jesus has ALREADY died for the sinner even before the sinner repented.
---duane on 5/20/10


markv

Just like there is two Israels, even so are there two kinds of Jews

I read it in three translations and they don't mention two Israels, Or two kinds of jews
maybe you can point it out.
---michael_e on 5/20/10


Jack B, sir, not my opinion but Scripture: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, "may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him." The eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints," If God does not do this, you continue dead in your traspasses and sins. Dead to God.
If the lost had faith, they would not be lost. Only believers have faith. Genuine faith produces fruit. Faith that does not produce is not genuine faith. We don't have faith in order to be saved, we have faith because we are saved. If we were not save we would not have faith.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


Catherine, very good words sister. Salvation is all of God, from beginning to end. Eloy says, "I stand at the door and knock"
When these words were spoken by God they were not spoken to the world at large, they were spoken to the Laodicean Church. It had become rich and forgotten to depend on Christ or have need of Him. In the context Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. This poignant letter was His knocking. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and responded in saving faith, He would enter the Church. "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" no one heard.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


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ALL men have faith, Mark. When you promise your children something do they not exercise their faith in you by believing what you have said? Yet they dont always do as you say. They rebel. But they still trust you with their lives do they not?

Why would we boast of our faith anyways? Our faith isnt what saves us! Its the object of our faith that saves us and He does that BY HIS GRACE. I boast of Jesus Christ, not my faith in Him.

Remember Peter when Christ called him out onto the water..... the strength of his faith faded (fear) and he began to sink. Jesus rescued him right before he sank.

Its not the strength of our faith that matters... it the OBJECT of it. Thats why we cant boast of our faith.
---JackB on 5/20/10


Jesus says, "Here I stand at the door and knock, IF ANY ONE hear my voice and OPEN THE DOOR, I WILL COME IN to that one and will supper with that person, and the person with me." Revelation 3:20. (emphasis mine). We can be at enmity against God, or else we can be at one with God: the free choice is ours whether to be obedient and blessed, or else to be disobedient and damned.
---Eloy on 5/20/10


Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,
Hbr 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
So, does the Son(Mat 11:27), the HS(Eph 3:5)
, the Father(Hbr 1:1,2), or the Trinity in all their operations show us the good news of salvation?
---micha9344 on 5/20/10


Not unless God, Himself, brings you to His Son. Convicts you that you are a sinner and that you need forgiveness of all your sins. It is the Blood which saves lost souls. Very powerful, Blood.
---catherine on 5/20/10


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Jesus comes to knock at your hearts door & you can let Him in & to let Him have control of your life. If you will let Him in, He Will clean up your actions of enmity, if not, He will leave. It's your choice to let Him clean up your life of All strife.
---Lawrence on 5/20/10


Michael e, read the Scriptures. I put them down for you. It is explained very carefully by God in His Word. For not all Israel is Israel. My quotes were from (Romans 2:17, 25-26, 28-29). When Jesus discerned Nathanael's spiritual lineage to Abraham and Jacob, He called him "an Israelite indeed" Just as Jacob himself had become a spiritual Israel, even so had Nathanael become "an Israelite indeed" He was part of God's true spiritual Israel. When Jesus saw Nathanael, He joyfully declared, " Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit" (John 1:47). Nathanael had a lineage that went back to Abraham, but he had more, in his spiritual life, he had victories over guile, which means deception.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


Here Able trusted God, (believed in Him) because he offered a more excellent sacrifice.
All those who had faith, were not separated from God, spiritually dead to God, or at enmity against Him, they believed in Him by genuine faith that displayed works, as they obeyed Him.
---MarkV. on 5/19/10

Where does the Bible say God gave Abel faith to believe God?
Can you show me scripture, MarkV?

You should really listen to JackB, He is speaking the truth.

Misplaced faith IS unbelief, MarkV.
People have faith in themselves these days and not God. That is misplaced faith OR UNBELIEF!
---miche3754 on 5/20/10


Jack B, Gal. 2:16 you quote wrong. It doesn't say what you quoted. Just to make the quote corrected, There is no "Of Christ" in the passage. Also you did not finish reading it. "Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith ("in Christ") and not by works of the law," clearly any works that you do, do not count. So you cannot produce that faith, if you could, then it would be by your own works that you confessed Christ and you would be able to boast. But there is no boasting from us, because it is all of God. So even that faith to believe is a gift of God.
"So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy" Romans 9:16.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


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Jack B, do you not know, that true genuine faith comes from God not man. Man does not have or can produce that genuine faith on his own. Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are wrought in the soul through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast" We are saved by grace when we are drawn to God John 6:44. And the instrument use is faith, which is a gift of God. Why? so that no one can boast.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ "you should not only believe in him but also suffer for His sake" all the work of God.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


markvon 5/20/10
Just like there is two Israels, even so are there two kinds of Jews.
Where is this scripture?
---michael_e on 5/20/10


Trav 2

...For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles, and laud him, all ye people. 12And again, Esaias (Isaiah) saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he [the root of Jesse] that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, in him shall the Gentiles trust. 13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Who needs the Ghostbusters, who are powerless against the Holy Ghost, who gives witness in the OT and the NT to our hope?
---aka_joseph on 5/20/10


Trav, your are confused. Everlasting is alway everlasting.
Just like there is two Israels, even so are there two kinds of Jews. There is Jewish people in the flesh and Jewish people in the Spirit. Paul wrote, "Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God..for circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law, but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumsised man (a Gentile) keeps the rightous requirments of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God"
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


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Trav, 2: Did you hear that Trav? Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a pysical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, is "not a Jew" His circumcision has become uncircumcision. To God, he is a Gentile. And the believing Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteous requirements of the law, his uncircumcision is counted as circumcision," To God, he is a Jew. John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and Paul all agree, that natural linage is not enough. This issue is at the core of prophetic interpretation. In it, we are faced with two options. One is the Truth, the other is a lie. One leads to Heaven, and the other, possibly hell.
---MarkV. on 5/20/10


Sorry but Eph 2:8,9 says its GRACE that saves not faith. Faith is the tool we use to access that grace.

God doesnt make mistakes in His word.

Galatians 2:16

"...a man is not justified... but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith ofChrist... "

"But as many as received him, gave he them the power to become the sons of God" That birth into Gods family is at the will of God himself.

Our reward isnt based on our faith, but on Christs faith. We just have to simply trust in that fact.
---JackB on 5/20/10


Ephesians 2:8

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

God doesnt need any help explaning his plan of salvation. Dont add words!!

Calvanist version:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that FAITH IS NOT WITHIN yourselves: it is the gift of God"

Bzzzt! Wrong! Thats not what it says!

Dont be fooled.

Being SAVED is the gift - not faith

Romans 10:8 The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of FAITH, which we preach
---JackB on 5/20/10


MarkV- "Jack B, you sir are suggesting that lost people have faith."

Of course lost people have faith. Its just misplaced faith. Its in themselves.

Paul is telling us that faith is right there within our mouth and heart (Romans 10:8), If we will put it in the truth of Jesus Christ we will be saved.

Romans 10:11
"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

If this isnt an exhortation from God to get us to shift our faith in the right direction, then idk what is.

Apparently God thinks he have faith too...
---JackB on 5/20/10


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I hope and pray this makes you think, MarkV. I am literally out of scripture and it all bounces off of you the same way it does an atheist anyway.

If FAITH is a gift of God, why, sir, does he TEST it in us?

The answer is obvious.

Because its OURS and He is trying to strengthen it and give us patience! (1 James 1:3)
---JackB on 5/20/10


His word lights every man that is born into the world. The deeds are evil, people enjoy what they are doing, more than loving Gods word. A person can't continue in fornication and abide in The word of God at the same time. God word is for anyone that will hear. Even wisdom puts forth her voice and cries outloud in the streets, even to the foolish and the simple of mind. God give the Power to every man who believes the power to become the sons of God. But if they choose not to hear the word of God, that is thier own very bad decision. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
---Tiffany on 5/20/10


Trav 1
And I think Paul didn't disobey/ignore these either whaddya think? So it appears something doesn't jive. Who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters? Nah. Prophets? Dial 411OT. Talk to Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea,Moses,Ezekiel,Daniel etc.
---Trav on 5/19/10
I am assuming that 'etc' includes the prophet Isaiah, but we will start with NT scripture from Paul, who would not disobey prophecy, and confirm in the OT scriptures:

Romans 15:8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy, as it is written,
---aka_joseph on 5/20/10


Trav, excluded the Church but all of us are the Church. In the Old Testament it was only for Israel but now it is for all.---MarkV. on 5/19/10

Exclude the eklesia? Nah, not likely.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

You say that everlasting is not everlasting? For ever is not for ever?
Isaiah 25:9
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God, we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD, we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Isaiah 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
---Trav on 5/19/10


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Aka, what Trav does not realize when he excludes the Church, that when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost it fell on only Jews, ...
---MarkV. on 5/19/10

It says,"you men of Israel". Not Judah. You say Jesus failed. Matt 10:6,15:24. He did not find the Lost Sheep Nth Divorced,House of Israel? My messiah doesn't fail. You don't know your scriptures yet. You may never, in denial.
Some sheep will that are looking. From afar.
Jeremiah 30:10
Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD, neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity, and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, be quiet, none shall make him afraid.
---Trav on 5/19/10


Jack B, you sir are suggesting that lost people have faith. If that is the case, then all unbelievers are really not unbelievers and there is no such thing as unbelievers at all. That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. They are called unbelievers because they do not have faith. Hebrews 11:4 says,
"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain"
Here Able trusted God, (believed in Him) because he offered a more excellent sacrifice.
All those who had faith, were not separated from God, spiritually dead to God, or at enmity against Him, they believed in Him by genuine faith that displayed works, as they obeyed Him.
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


Aka, what Trav does not realize when he excludes the Church, that when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost it fell on only Jews, 3,000 of them who were later batized. The Early Church was Jewish. But what I want you to consider is, When Spirit-filled Stephen looked back into history, he call Israel in Moses time, "The Church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:38. Thus, according to Stephen who was enlightened by the Holy Ghost perception-Old Testament Israel was God's Church.
After God's Spirit fell on the non Jews, (Act 10:44,45) Slowly prejudice started to break down. A Jewish council of believers convened in Jerusalem to discuss "the Jew-Gentile issue" in Acts 15, and after much dispute between the two,
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


Aka 2: my point is that Peter rose up at the counsel meeting and told the Jews that after God had come to the Gentiles, that God had made no distinction between the two, purifying the Gentiles hearts by faith. and in verse 11 he says, " But we believe that through the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they"
Trav, excluded the Church but all of us are the Church. In the Old Testament it was only for Israel but now it is for all. No distinction between the two.
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


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Yes, people can come to Christ while at enmity with God. ALL people are sinners and at enmity with God. When you surrender your life and repent (confess and forsake) your sins, then you are comming to Christ. Look at Paul when he was Saul, God knocked him off his high horse and he came to Christ.
---Leslie on 5/19/10


MarkV ---- "All lost who are spiritually dead have no faith."

(Hebrews 11:4) Lost man WITH faith #1.

By FAITH Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Im not assuming anything here or adding anything thats not written by the Holy Ghost himself. Please read it 100 times until it sinks in.

The Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth/Holy Spirit are all the same as Christ explains (John 14). He comes in AFTER we believe (Eph 1:13)
(Acts 19:2-7)
---JackB on 5/19/10


Trav, I get what you are not saying.
At least Jesus had the decency to call us dogs to our faces and then threw us a bone. (That is why He is our only Hope.)
The Talmud does not permit... ---aka_joseph on 5/19/10

The foul Talmud-d is a source book guide for you? Not me. I'm not a Judahite by known pedigree. It was the other side of the sheep house that would/will accept.
Dogs cannot see truth as indicated by verse below, and rend or trample. Are you rending me,or trampling? If I'm a dog,I'll be a blue ribbon sheep dog. You?
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:5-7
---Trav on 5/19/10


Jack B, you gave an example, you said,
"Ok lets say...
Mark and I are at enmity with one another.
Marks son yells "I can end all of this hostility between you two! Trust me!"
Does the fact that Im hostile towards Mark make it impossible for me to believe his son?"

Yes, if you do not have faith in the Son. In order to believe someone you have to have faith. Without it there is no fruit. Enmity remains. All lost who are spiritually dead have no faith. In Scripture we are told we need to be change, and this change is called regeneration (Titus 3:5). A spiritual resurrection which is wrought by the same mighty power with which God wrought in Christ when He raised Him from the dead (Eph. 1:19,20).
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


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Jack B, second question, you said,
"Of course he can. If hes not at enmity with God then why does he need to come to Christ in the first place?
---JackB on 5/19/10"

The fact is that while you are at enmity against God there is no way you can come to Christ while in rebellion, you cannot love Him, have faith in Him, Trust Him, or even believe that you are in rebellion against God. What you need is the Spirit of God to bring you to spiritual life,
"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them beacuse they are spiritually discern"
It says, "He is not able"
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


Jack B, as to your third question you spoke truth about the power in His Word. I say this though, in 1 Thess. 1:4,5:
"For we know, brethren beloved by God, (talking about the believers only) that He has chosen you, for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction"
He was telling the believers that the gospel came to them not only in word but in power and full conviction. What about those that hear the word and do not respond? The gospel did not come to them in power and full conviction because if it had they too would have seen their rebellion and would have repented. They were dead to the spiritual gifts of God.
---MarkV. on 5/19/10


Trav, I get what you are not saying.

At least Jesus had the decency to call us dogs to our faces and then threw us a bone. (That is why He is our only Hope.) If we have to depend on a people who get the management positions from pedigree instead of qualification, what does it matter?

The Talmud does not permit Jews to teach Gentiles, but you insist on 'leading' us to the truth. Is this your attempt at present compassion or is it an indicator of future cruelty?
---aka_joseph on 5/19/10


"Whosoever" would seem to include anyone.

Once I was witnessing to a lady in Mexico and realizing that English was not her mother tongue, I asked her what does whosoever mean? To which she replied well sir that means anybody anybody at all.
---mima on 5/19/10


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YES! Only God calls them to draw near to him. He knows our hearts & even if we're messed up & not right with him he can still call us.
---candice on 5/19/10


When we witness to a lost person, it is not a mere mans words. We are speaking the words which were written according to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God...

2 Peter 1:21
...but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I can see where this is headed already....

The blinding and the election had it purpose and God made that very clear. God has a tendency to explain himself very well so we see understand the intentions of His heart. He did it to make Israel jealous and to bring US salvation as well. (Romans 11:11,32)
---JackB on 5/19/10


Christ instructed Paul, who was Jew of all Jews, to go out and give the gospel of grace to the Gentile nations. This means the Messiah, who Trav does not believe in, we are all one.)
---aka_joseph on 5/15/10

Well, aka I believe in truth and in multiple scripture witnessing truth. Lets post: Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Non Judean by the way)And I think Paul didn't disobey/ignore these either whaddya think? So it appears something doesn't jive. Who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters? Nah. Prophets? Dial 411OT. Talk to Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea,Moses,Ezekiel,Daniel etc.
---Trav on 5/19/10


"If hes not at enmity with God then why does he need to come to Christ in the first place?
---JackB on 5/19/10

This statement by JackB is very defineing, very clear, to understand the statement is to understand what calling on the name the Lord Jesus Christ is all about.
---mima on 5/19/10


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Jesus said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32
The fact that a person is at enmity against God makes him a sinner whom Christ came for.
---sam on 5/18/10


this question makes little sense to me. Conviction by the holy spirit,and belief in jesus christ are required for salvation,aka being born again.man is naturally in enmity with God because of the flesh,because of mans sin nature,but in trying to answer your question to come to God scripture specifically says we must believe that he is ,that he is a rewarder of those who deligently seek him,you cant hate God,or not believe in God,and be saved,if you love jesus then you love the father.
---tom2 on 5/18/10


Of course he can.

If hes not at enmity with God then why does he need to come to Christ in the first place?
---JackB on 5/19/10


Ok lets say...

Mark and I are at enmity with one another.

Marks son yells "I can end all of this hostility between you two! Trust me!"

Does the fact that Im hostile towards Mark make it impossible for me to believe his son?
---JackB on 5/19/10


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MarkV, That's the best question! This question has tied so much scripture for me and further understanding. The 125 word limit will do my response no justice. This is huge! All I can do now is summarize and praise God!

John 6:44a No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...

In my life, through many events and many years the Father brought me to the Christ Jesus. All along, I really thought I loved the Father. However, I could not understand the teachings of Jesus. Then, when God showed me my spiritual poverty and ineptness, that is when I started to see. And, that is when Jesus started to show me my enmity was really towards the Father...

John 6:44b And I will raise him up on the last day...
---aka_joseph on 5/19/10


MarkV #2,

...And I will raise him up on the last day.

Since I have truly been drawn to the Son, he is delivering me from my enmity for the Father by showing me things that I was blind to before.
---aka_joseph on 5/19/10


To a certain extend we all come to christ that way.

Most of us are FIRST drawn to christ, not because of what he did on the cross, but because we fear a hot foot.

As time goes on, we learn how to love him.

Remember, our emotional responce which we call love is not what christ primarily wants, he wants a love that keeps his commandments.

Essencially, those of us who claim love towards god and continue to willingly break his commandments are stil at enmity with God.
---francis on 5/19/10


There has been Law from Adam to Moses and from Moses to today, for Adam was imputed with sin as well as all who were roundabout Noah and were drowned.
That all men were dead in sin (enmity) is a farce disproved in the Christian era. John called men to repentance, men without the light and guidance of the HG. What about Mary?
Luke 8:15: "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
---Nana on 5/18/10


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The Incarnation of the Son by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and His Advent clearly shows the Father's initiative to destroy the enmity between humans and God.

As someone else said, quoting St. Paul, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us--yea, and rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven.

What more can God do?
---Cluny on 5/18/10


Anybody that wants to, Paul said while we yet sinners Christ died for us
---michael_e on 5/18/10


Jesus tore down the wall. His flesh was the veil rent in twain that opened up the way to the Father. All men have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ and salvation is offered to "whosoever will". We were enemies with God in our minds by wicked works but NOW hath He reconciled us to Himself. If the sacrifice of Jesus didn't deal with the gulf between God and man, man is hopeless to deal with it himself.
---Linda on 5/18/10


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