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What Is Spiritual Fornication

Based on what is written in Galatians 2:11-21, if the people who try to mix the LAW with GRACE are they guilty of committing SPIRITUAL ADULTRY, or SPRITUAL FORNICATION?

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 ---Rob on 6/1/10
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According to Scripture, what was written and engraven in stones and was done away?
---Linda on 6/10/
So you are OK with adultery, and murder?

maybe the text does not say that what was written in stone was done away with,

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance,

Look it was not the ten commandments that was glorious, it was the occasion of the giving of the commandments.(the ministration )It was moses face that shined not the tables of stone.

There is no death in the ten commandments. Thrath in the sanctuary which moses told of.
---francis on 6/10/10


Some 'Christian' groups that do not beieve in the deity of Jesus are , Seventh Day Adventist, In addition, Jesus is not the Christ to them.
---aka.joseph on 6/10/

i canonly speak to the Aeventh Aay Adventist belief since i am a seventh day adventist.
We do believe that Jesus is God which is the diety of Jesus, and we do believe that jesus is the christ/ the messiah.

continued
---francis on 6/10/10


richard

If every denomination used one Bible, there would be no confusion. There are non-Christian denoms that are considered Christian. These belief systems may use some verses to promote their belief, but somewhere, the gospel gets twisted. Therefore, the same words mean different things. Thus, the confusion.

Some 'Christian' groups that do not beieve in the deity of Jesus are Jehovah's Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, and Mormon (LDS). In addition, Jesus is not the Christ to them.

Other 'Christian' groups do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, like Judaism, and they believe in the law. There are other groups that believe in the law and Jesus, who are basically Judaizers.
---aka.joseph on 6/10/10


francis, there are many N.T. Laws. Real Christians DO the works of Christ. Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from wrong. Be perfect, be righteous, be good and bear good fruit, be obedient, sin not, be clean, be pure, be holy, lie not, bless and curse not, love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies, share your faith, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the shut-ins and prisoners and the infirmed, and be a father to the fatherless, a friend to the friendless, a helper to the helpless.
---Eloy on 6/10/10


To Catherine, Frances, and all others.

Concerning being under LAW or under GRACE, do you ACCEPT or do you REJECT what is written in the following scriptures?

Romans 6:15
Romans 7:4-6
Romans 10:1-4
Galatians 2:17-21
Galatians 3:1-25
Galatians 5:1-4
1 Timothy 1:3-7

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME AND READ ALL OF THEM!!!
---Rob on 6/10/10




catherine, would you rather love(thou shalt love) to do right instead having fear(thou shalt not) of doing wrong?
The difference is ever so slight, but it is there, the difference between the Old covenant and the New when He put it in our hearts(love).
The 2 summing up the whole OT. Spirit of love, not of fear...producing fruits against which there is no law.
Mercy instead of judgement.
'Thou shalt not' accentuates the negative.
'Love' demands the positive, not even thinking about it, As Jesus said about adultery..don,t even think about it..
His jugement of the sheep and goats were all based on positive action.
---micha9344 on 6/9/10


But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

According to Scripture, what was written and engraven in stones and was done away?
---Linda on 6/10/10


Jesus spoke of 2 "royal laws",if you employ your Christian conscience as you should,then it follows that you will know better than to"covet your neighbours donkey" and such like, however your liberty enables you to enjoy a bacon sandwich with impunity and mustard!
---richard on 6/10/10


No, No. I am going to support francis in this. We are to obey God's "Ten Commandments". All ten of them. And I don't where this came from that we are not. Oh, I know, the devil.
---catherine on 6/9/10


I must confess, that there are some thought processes which I would like to know more about.

The first is the notion of the OT relating to israel and not the church. The first 10000 christians were all jews, they used the OT books exclusively even to teach none hebews, and God made a covenant only with Israel and Judah.

My question is: Where is the covenant and source teaching for none hebews?


The next is very currious: What exactly does it mean to be under grace and not law? Does it mean we are not supposed or required to obey the ten commandments? YOu mean gentiles can have two gods, kill, steal, work a 7 day week, covet, lie, commit adultery, take God's name in vain?


Third: What exactly are the NT LAWS?
---francis on 6/9/10




Continued

When you say " if you break one you break all," or " if you break one you are guilty of all."

Are you saying that it is OK to break one?
Are you saying that we have already broken one so we do not have to keep any?
Are you saying that we can break all or any and it is no sin?

what does that mean to you if you break one you break all?
---francis on 6/9/10


..sorry Francis,I didnt mean to pick up on your comment in relation to yourself..its been a frustration to me how many Christians get the whole grace/law area confused,and that verse in Mal ch 4 is often taken to mean that the church should keep the law,when the prophet (I believe)was adressing Israel,in connection with Gods plan for His "chosen" people at the end-time.
---richard on 6/9/10


Richard on 6/9/10
The malachi 4 reference is given only to say that God called moses on the mountain and gave him some laws, and moses then taught the people those laws. It is given to say that the entire congregation did not hear those laws from the mouth of God, but from the mouth of moses. I am not saying we are today to obey them.

---Eloy on 6/9/10
What exactly are the NT Laws?
---francis on 6/9/10


Francis, even the passage you gave has to be understood that God did not speak directly to the people word for word. Again if that was the case why have Moses go up to the mountain? What purpose would it serve. They heard God through lighting and thunder but did not hear the words of the Lord. The Lord designed the upcoming encounter with Him so as to forestall any later accusation that Moses had himself compiled the law and had not met with the Lord on the mountain. I would also lead to great deference being accorded Moses by the people. verse 16 speaks of the thunder and lightning they heard.
---MarkV. on 6/9/10


Mal.4 only follows mal.1.vs1(read it),so God was plainly dealing with the Jewish nation,this will continue, God has NOT divorced Israel...under grace as Christians, is easiest summed up this way,since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling we have a conscience that works with our faith accordingly and therefore Paul could write that," what is not of faith is sin"! .... Yes, the law is still perfect converting the soul...but dont be puffed up into thinking that you can keep that law and thats why we need an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the righteous..
---richard on 6/9/10


---MarkV. on 6/9/10

I am amazed THat you cannot see that. I think you are just being difficult. II think that is very clear in both duet 4 and 5, and also n exodus 20.

How do you get that the lord spoke to moses and they "overheard" from moses saying THE LORD SPOKE TO YOU and YOU HEARD a voice?


OK another verse: THIS IS ABOUT THE 6TH THAT SYAS THE SAME THING all the people heard God.

Exodus 19:9 that THE PEOPLE MAY HEAR WHEN I SPEAK WITH THEE,
---francis on 6/9/10


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There is the N.T. LAW, and there is the O.T. LAW: therefore if you are saying a person who accepts grace but not N.T. law is guilty of sin, you are correct. And if you are saying a person who accepts grace and also O.T. LAW is guilty of sin, you are again correct. For every person is commanded to do N.T. LAW and God will dispense his grace, else he will dispense his wrath.
---Eloy on 6/9/10


---Rob on 6/8/10

The scriptures i quoted reference the Ten Commandments. Are you per chance suggesting that only jews are required to have only one God, not to take God's name in vain, to have not to make graven images for worship, to rest one day (7th) per week, to honour father and mother, not to kill, not to steal, not to lie, not to connit adultery, not to covet, while christians of none hebrew origin can do all these?

the bible says
Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman, but the woman for the man.

If MAN means JEWS ONLY should we not allow the Jewonly to have ALL THE WOMEN?
---francis on 6/9/10


Francis, concerning your idea that God spoke to the people in Deut. 4: two of my commentaries say that God spoke to the people through Moses. One says that God spoke to Moses in the mountain but that everyone heard Him.
I know that not everyone was on the mountain and saw the burning bush. And also the same events are mentioned in Exodus the Lord spoke to Moses, and does not say that the Lord spoke all those things to the people. In v. 33:5 of Exodus God is telling Moses what to say, and if He had already told everyone already why would God have to say it again to Moses?
---MarkV. on 6/9/10


ten commandment such a burden

lets start by worshiping other gods: this one God thing is legalism.

Lets start to carve trees into Gods ( That is the idea of grace)

Let's work seven days strait that rest thing on the 7th day is too much of a burden.

That lousy spouse has not commited adultery yet, she / he is still under law

RATS!that pesky thou shall not kill me, how dare my nieghbour put himself under law.

I just hate that neighbour who tells the truth, does he not know we are under grace?

Car still in the parking lot, no one has stolen it. Why are these people still under law!

My best friend will not lust after my spouse. Does he not know we are under grace and not law! COVET MAN COVET
---FRANCIS on 6/8/10


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seems ironic then that Jesus chose out of the Law of Moses and not the Law of God, as francis defines them,
---micha9344 on 6/8/10

I would LOVE to take credit for defining them, but God beat me to it:


Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.
---francis on 6/9/10


It seems ironic then that Jesus chose out of the Law of Moses and not the Law of God, as francis defines them, for the 2 greatest commandments for which James calls them the Royal Law. It seems to me that these 2 make up the real Law of God.
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
---micha9344 on 6/8/10


Frances, the scriptures you are sharing were for the Jews and the Jews only who were still under the LAW and not under GRACE!
---Rob on 6/8/10


Francis, I do not have to speak to anyone about this facts in Scripture. I believe you are confuse as I said because when God speaks it seems He is speaking to everyone but it doesn't say that He is speaking to everyone. He is speaking for sure, they are His words, but they are spoken to the spokesperson and he passess them on to the people. God was present with them through the desert. As a cloud in many cases in Scripture and as fire in others. He has spoken to many in Scripture, mostly to a few at a time, or one person. Now Jesus spoke to many people in His first coming. Other times He spoke to individuals and they wrote about what He said.
Again, you did not answer my questions. Answer them if you can. Or did you give up?
---MarkV. on 6/8/10


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Deuteronomy 4:12 And THE LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU..
Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU

Moses is remindING them, that God spoke DIRECTLY to them

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD COMMANDED ME at that time to teach you statutes and judgments,

MOSES is reminding them that in ADDITION to speaking directly to them, God also spoke to him privatly to speak to them.

iF YOU CANNOT GET THAS MILK, YOU WONT GET THE MEAT
---francis on 6/8/10


---MarkV. on 6/8/10
Abraham, jacob, isaac were all individual priest and God spoke them as such.
Israel was a nation of priest and God attempted to speak to them as such.

God spoke His law to israel so that there woudl be no doubt as to who gave the laws (with two or more witnesses let everything be established) In the book of Numbers, the poeple started ot question the things which God told to Moses. But never the things which God spoke directly to them.

Moses went to the mountain because the people asked him to be stand between them and God. God would have rather speak to them personally.

My question to MarkV is this: Have you asked your priest or pastor about this God speaking directly to israel?
---francis on 6/8/10


Francis, again here are my questions,
Francis, you know what? You might be right. You see, why would God use Abraham, Moses, and all others whom He used? What was the purpose, if God spoke to all the People Himself? He didn't need a spokesperson. Just scream it out to everyone. Why send Moses to the mountain? Why let Moses go hungry while in the mountains so many days? Just to torcher him? When God could have wrote on the tablets of stone right in front of everyone."
Can you answer some of them, you do not have to answer all if you cannot. I will understand.
---MarkV. on 6/8/10


Francis, In Deut. 4 verse 5 you can catch what I am talking about, "Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess" as you can see When God speaks in Scripture His words are written so that the reader will know they are the words of God, but they are spoken to the people through Moses. These were not Moses own words but God's. When they are his words, you do not hear God speaking. You have to understand these points on how to read the Bible. The same holds true when Jesus spoke. His words are written as He is talking, but Matthew or John, who ever wrote them down were writing what God said.
---MarkV. on 6/8/10


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TO everyone on this blog:

OK let us be 100% honest with each other.
Read Exodus 20, Deurotonomy 4 and 5

Exodus 20:1 Exodus 20:2

Deuteronomy 4:11 Deuteronomy 4:12 Deuteronomy 4:13

Deuteronomy 5:4 Deuteronomy 5:22
Deuteronomy 5:23

Can you honestly say from these verses that God did not speak to ALL the people directly.

And then read more and you will see that only AFTER God has spoken his ten commandments to ALL the people, did he speak to moses privatly.
---francis on 6/8/10


---MarkV. on 6/8/10

You are missing something.
God spoke the ten commandments to all israel, and when they heard HIM, they could not stand it. God later said to them all: see i speak to you all from heaevn so do not make other Gods.

Moses then went up the mountain. On the mountain God did not speak to moses about Ten commandments. God spoke to him about building a sanctuary. God had already spoken the ten commandments.

Continued
Before Moses left the mountain God himself wrote the ten commandments on stone.

You are missing the significance of this: God himself spoke and wrote the ten commandments.
---francis on 6/8/10


continued..

The fact they they made a golden calf had nothing to do with hearing Gods woice leterally.

Think of Eve and Adam, perfect sinless human beings, having face to face worship with God, God told them face to face not to eat the fruit and yet they ate.

But keep in mind that God wrote in stone.
In our language written in stone means permanent.

Also read revelation: Seen in the holy place is the ark with the Ten commandments, NOT NONE TEN.
---francis on 6/8/10


Francis, you know what? You might be right. You see, why would God use Abraham, Moses, and all others whom He used? What was the purpose, if God spoke to all the People Himself? He didn't need a spokesperson. Just scream it out to everyone. Why send Moses to the mountain? Why let Moses go hungry while in the mountains so many days? Just to torcher him? When God could have wrote on the tablets of stone right in front of everyone.
Sure, I will not deny that in many case God spoke to people, that is a fact and others heard Him. But in your case the laws were given to Moses so that he could bring them to the people. The same truth happened when Moses was with Pharaoah, He give instructions to Moses on what to say.
---MarkV. on 6/8/10


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MARKV how can you be so wrong so often?

Let me get 3 posts to show you AGAIN


Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying

Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

See verse 1, God is speaking to all of isreal. Notice it is GOD SPOKE

The test is the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

verse 19 they ask moses to be the go between after they heard his voice they were afrad.

continued..
---francis on 6/7/10


POST 3
continued


Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice,

God said THIS THING I COMMANDED.

WHO COMMANDED: GOD

Look how different this is from Law of Moses
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.

I commanded HIM
verses COMMANDED I THEM

HIM= MOSES
THEM= ALL of Israel
---francis on 6/7/10


Mark, you may very well be the only christiannot to know that God spoke all ten commandments directlky to israel.
---francis on 6/7/10


The burden of the letter is irrelevant.
The spirit of the law is liberty.
How can I break a 55 mile speed limit when my Governor is set to 54?
It's not a burden to me, of no consequence, I'm under a new covenant sealed with the Holy Spirit. The Truth has set me free from the law of sin. How can I do anything against my God? As I have said before, the OT laws are passive, meant just for Israel. Jesus wants us to be active and, through the Holy Spirit, we can bear the fruits of righteousness, not just wallow in our knowledge of sin as those that fell in the wilderness without entering the promised land, knowing that they didn't enter because of faith. Shall we continue under that yoke of bondage that even they were not able to bear?
---micha9344 on 6/7/10


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Francis, the passages you gave do not speak what you say. Exodus 20 where the commandments were given, they were given to Moses. Exodus 20:19 is clear again that God spoke to Israel through Moses for He was told to tell the people so and so. Why tell Moses to tell the people if the people were hearing what He was saying? No you got that wrong. They knew if God presented Himself there they would surely die. What God had for them were instructions, for what they were suppose to do but they were given to Moses.
---MarkV. on 6/7/10


MarkV. on 6/7/10

Mark read my last posts, all the texts are in there. They heard God literally then decided that from then on Moses would be the go between. That is given THREE times in the bible. I am not going to post it again.

micha9344 on 6/6/10
Yes we are under grace and not law. But does being under grace give us any reason to have any other gods, take gGod's name in vain, make idols and worship then, break the sabbath, dishonour father parents, kill, steal, commit adultery, lie, and covet?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
---francis on 6/7/10


I apologize and stand corrected francis.
I'm glad I'm under grace and not under the law as Israel is.
---micha9344 on 6/6/10


Francis, God spoke to the nation of Israel alright, not literally, but through Moses. When Scripture says that God spoke to them, He is saying that His words went through Moses, for He is the one that received the instructions to give to the nation. If the people had heard the words of God they would not have build a calf, they didn't see Moses return so they did not wait any longer and build a god for themselves. He did reveal Himself through their trip as a Cloud and as a pillar of fire, so they knew God was with them, but all communications came to Moses at the time.
---MarkV. on 6/7/10


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---micha9344 on 6/6/10
Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying

Exodus 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The test is the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

And they were afraid and did not want to speak to God directly, and asked Moses to be the go betwen. And from this point on Gods peaks through Moses and the prophets, never directly to the masses.

continued
---francis on 6/6/10


continued

Moses also varified that God spoke directly to the people when He wrote Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 4:11 And YE came near and stood under the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: YE HEARD THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude, only [ye heard] a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU...

So this was God speaking directly to israel. The next verses tell us what God told moses to tell israel.
---francis on 6/6/10


give a reference to where God did not use Moses to communicate the 10 commandments or be considered a false teacher and be marked as such.
---micha9344 on 6/6/10


-micha9344 on 6/5/10

You are getting closer.

God told MOSES and moses told the people. Whatever God told to MOSES is called THE LAW OF MOSES, all that stuff you posted about sacrifices was told to MOSES and moses told it to the people.

Now there were some things that God told the people directly, and not through Moses. Those things are THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
What God spoke directly to the people is called THE LAW OF GOD

What God told to Moses, who then told it to the people is called THE LAW OF MOSES.

Now I did not make that up, God did.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye THE LAW OF MOSES MY SERVANT WHICH I COMMANDED UNTO HIM in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the statutes and judgments.
---francis on 6/6/10


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look at the difference between these verses, figure out who spoke to israel, and remember the word of God: At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses,

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU... YE HEARD THE VOICE OF THE WORDS.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED unto you his.. ten commandments, and HE WROTE them upon two tables of stone.

COMPARE WITH THIS

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded ME TO TEACH YOU...

While all of Israel could varify by more than one witness the ten commandments. Only Moses could verify the laws of sacrifice and sanctuary.

Thus LAW OF GOD, and LAW OF MOSES
It is based on who WOTRE DIRECTLY
to israel.

iF YOU CANNOT GET THIS, THEN....
---francis on 6/6/10


Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
You're mixing the chronological events at Mt Sinai. God did tell His people to obey His voice, but He told Moses the commandments, all of them. Israel was not allowed on the mount yet that is where God gave Moses the commandments, all of them.
Stay in context and release yourself from false doctrine.
---micha9344 on 6/5/10


---micha9344 on 6/5/10
I am not sure what you mean by out of context. The text that I posted show that God says He did not command Israel when they came out of Egypt to sacrifice, He only commanded them to obey his voice.

The test you posted says that they did not obey his voice.
What exactly did they not obey?
They did not obey his voice.

The only voice that the Israelities heard from God after leaving Egypt, was God's voice speaking the ten commandments.

It was the voice of Moses which they heard commanding sacrifices.

Thus through the bible, the LAW OF GOD is referred to as the Ten Commandments.

And the LAW OF MOSES as Laws concerning sacrifices.
---francis on 6/5/10


Whatever your thoughts on spiritual fornication may be, the one thing it cannot be is combination of grace and law.
It is not possible for any christian to think that because he has thegraceof God that adultery is acceptable. He must abide by the LAW that says thou shall not commit adultery.

If for one minute you believe that spiritual fornication is having grace, and obeying the law, then all christians to avoid spiritual fornication must: STEAL, KILL, LIE, COVET, COMMIT ADULTERY, WORSHIP FALSE GODS, AND DIS HONOUR THIER PARENTS.
---francis on 6/5/10


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out of context ...again
Jer 7:24-28 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels [and] in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending [them]: Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers... but they will not hearken to thee...but they will not answer thee. But thou shalt say unto them, This [is] a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
---micha9344 on 6/5/10


Neither. A Christian is one whom Christ lives. The Old Testament law was powerless---the Blood is power. The law only reminded you of how rotten you are.
---catherine on 6/5/10


---Cluny on 6/4/10

I think Peter Pan was busy that day picking pickles peppers with Peter Pipper.

It is called the Law of Moses because it was taught to Israel by Moses and not be God.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Jeremiah 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

If God did not command then to sacrifice who did. I was not peter pan, we know where he was that day.

It ws Moses.
---francis on 6/5/10


\\Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded ME AT THAT TIME TO TEACH YOU statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

THIS IS THE LAW OF MOSES
---francis on 6/4/10\\

And where do you think that Moses got them?

Peter Pan?
---Cluny on 6/4/10


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So, I see a hungry person on the street. I say 'May God bless you' but do nothing about his hunger.
Which 'law of God' have I broken?
Why did Jesus not choose a 'law of God' to be either of the 2 greatest?
Why will Jesus judge us based on 'Love' instead of the 'law of God'?
Why is the above action considered 'sin' if the 'law of God' does not apply?
(law of God= ten commandments according to francis)

---micha9344 on 6/4/10


The Bible itself does not make a distinction between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws..
---Cluny on 6/4/10
WRONG

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD SPAKE UNTO YOU out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude, only [ye heard] a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And HE DECLARED UNTO YOU his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU to perform, [even] ten commandments, and HE WROTE THEM upon two tables of stone

THIS IS THE LAW OF GOD: TEN COMMANDMENTS

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded ME AT THAT TIME TO TEACH YOU statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

THIS IS THE LAW OF MOSES
---francis on 6/4/10


\\When the BIBLE speaks about LAW and GRACE being in opposition. It is speaking about the Laws of the Sanctuary. Laws like circumcision and sacrifice. I think that is what we are trying to say.\\

Wrong.

The Bible itself does not make a distinction between "moral" and "ceremonial" laws. This is a modern tradition and precept of men.

The Bible knows only ONE law: The Law.

This is seen in Leviticus 17 where in the midst of a mixture of "moral" and "ceremonial" laws comes "Keep My decrees."
---Cluny on 6/4/10


Rob, I love your answer very much. As I see it many are stuck in their false teachings. What R.C. Sproul called Theological bias.
And here is what I understand as you stated,
"Mima, I agree a person can be bombarded with False Teaching for so long it can be very difficult for them to turn to accept God's Truths. But if a person earnestly and sincerely seeks to know God's Truths, he will open their eyes to the Truth."
But this only comes when God gives that person the passion to know the Truth otherwise they will continue in their false teachings. For it is the Spirit who brings light to God's Word. Some are distine to stay there and others are not. We praise God He opened your eyes to the Truth.
---MarkV. on 6/4/10


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You don't need grace if you obey the law.
This applies to any law, rule, stipulation, etc.
A judge or law enforcement individual may grant grace or mercy when a law has been violated.
It usually depends upon the attitude of the offender.
Now, apply this to our great God, Creator, and Judge and you will see that there must be grace because of the offences of the law.
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
---micha9344 on 6/4/10


When the BIBLE speaks about LAW and GRACE being in opposition. It is speaking about the Laws of the Sanctuary. Laws like circumcision and sacrifice. I think that is what we are trying to say.

The Bible does not say that Obedience to the Law of God is in opposition to grace.

Acts 15:20 abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The gentiles accepted the grace of God, yet they are commanded to obey Act15:20 which is the Law of God.

So you see, the Law of God and grace are not in opposition. They are not keeping the law to be saved, but rather because they are saved.

So let me ask: Should christians live in SIN or in obedience to the Law of God?
---francis on 6/4/10


Very good topic. One of the best.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I must add, even those who keep all ten commandments, are not saved by keeping all ten commandments, they are saved by grace.

But a christian always obey all ten commandments and is not in conflict with grace.

Acts 5:32 .also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,
---francis on 6/4/10


ROD i only say one reference galation 3

Let me help you guys out here.

Do you know that if you are not stealing that you are keeping a cmmandment that says thou shall not steal?

Do you know that if you are faithful to your spouse that you are keeping a commandment that says Thou shall not commit adultery?

Do you believe that one who is under grace actually commits adultery and steals or do they obey the Law which commands them not to steal or commit adultery?
---francis on 6/4/10


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Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are talking about TWO different laws.
The Law of Moses, and The Law of God.
And yet spiritual fornication CANNOT be obedience to the law of Moses or to the Law of God.
---francis on 6/4/10


Mima, I agree a person can be bombarded with False Teaching for so long it can be very difficult for them to turn to accept God's Truths.

But if a person earnestly and sincerely seeks to know God's Truths, he will open their eyes to the Truth.

I am an example of this. I was caught up in False Doctrine from my pre-teen years. What made a difference is I had the desire to know the truth.
---Rob on 6/3/10


I have read the verses referenced several times. I've read all the answers several times.
Certainly those who try to make law and grace place themselves in a condemnable position.
In the new dispensation any dependency on law for salvation is wrong and condemns a person.
The problem is these people learn doctrine using the law on their mothers knee and therefore are very hard to wean off wrong doctrine.
The answer to that question is yes they're guilty of spiritual adultery!! Let us pray that the Lord would show them light and understanding.
---mima on 6/3/10


Frances, if you believe the Apostle Paul did not not have issues with the Law and we should not have an issue, you either have not read and studied the scriptures I have posted, or you reject them because you don't believe them.

The scriptures I have posted are very plain and very clear!
---Rob on 6/3/10


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Francis, what do all those passages you gave have to do with what I said to you? Not one thing.
1. Romans 6:1,2, refers to believers baptized into Christ Jesus into His death"
2. James 2:10 refers to people like you who want to be under the law, if you break one you break them all. Have not rested in Christ.
3. John 14:15, Love of Christ is inseparable from obedience (Luke 6:46, 1 John 5:2,3). Keeping the commandments Jesus gave are two, and every believer believes and abides in both commandments Jesus gave.

Now what does that have to do with what I said? When you stated you accept Christ, you are proclaiming you were cause of your salvation by your own works. But you were saved by Grace through faith. Nothing you did.
---MarkV. on 6/3/10


Paul had no issues with obeying the LAW of God, and accepting Gods grace.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


JAMES HAD NO ISSUES WITH ACCETING GRACE AND OBEYING THE LAW

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

so why should any of us have an issue acepting grace, and obeying Gods commandments?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
---FRANCIS on 6/3/10


Stop to think of what you say, if you accepted the grace of Christ for your salvation, you have earned your way into His kingdom by your own works. ---MarkV. on 6/2/10
this is jibberish, read that again, and correct it
---francis on 6/3/10


Mark V, it looks like you have the correct understanding concerning LAW and GRACE, which is a good thing.

Most people don't have this understanding, which I know is true because for too many years I was lacking the understanding.

I am now thankful I know and also understand the TRUTH.

Most people try to mix LAW with GRACE, BUT IT CANNOT BE DONE. Those people who try to mix the two together don't realize they are under a CURSE, and not under GRACE, Galatians 3:10-14.
---Rob on 6/2/10


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Francis, you said,
"NO. example: I have accepted the grace of Jesus Christ. Yet i firmly believe that THOU SHALL NOT KILL applies to me."

Stop to think of what you say, if you accepted the grace of Christ for your salvation, you have earned your way into His kingdom by your own works. You were so kind to God for accepting Him. You could have been mean and said no. So you had mercy on Him. Praise God, there is something good in you when the Bible says, "None is righteous, no not one, no one understands, (I guess you did) no one who seeks for God, (you were seeking and found Him, guess He was lost) All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong, no one does good, (you did) not even one."
---MarkV. on 6/2/10


People!

Please spell the word properly!

adultEry.

Yes, there's an E in this 4 syllable word.
---Cluny on 6/2/10


NO. example: I have accepted the grace of Jesus Christ. Yet i firmly believe that THOU SHALL NOT KILL applies to me.

The Bible also commands all believers: IF you love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Clearly God calls for those who have accepted the grace of God to keep his commandments.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,

Spiritual fornication is mixing the things of the devil with that of God

Examples include: Christmas, Easter, and a few others.
---francis on 6/2/10


Athiest, ADULTRY and FORNICATION may not be the right words to use, but I hope you get the point of the question.
---Rob on 6/1/10


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Idolatry is spiritual fornication
---fay on 6/1/10


\\I have read about sexual repression and religion, but this question has got to take the idea of repression to a whole new level.\\

Actually, atheist, there is a very thin line between sexuality and spirituality.

The Song of Solomon explores this theme, with spiritual life expressed in erotic terms.

The novel version of Humberto Eco's THE NAME OF THE ROSE has a sexual encounter described with phrases drawn from classical mystical writings, and half-in Latin, to boot.

Furthermore, Orthodox Christianity has always taught that because of the closeness of spirituality and sexuality, warping of one leads to warping of the other, and the result is "prelest," the classic example being the non-monk Rasputin.
---Cluny on 6/1/10


Rev.22 v 13. In other words Jesus Christ is saying I Am God in the beginning & I am God in the Ending. Even though His name was hid until the appointed time as it was prophesied in the O - Testament, & then revealed, came to pass in the N - Testament. Colo.2 v 9.
Spiritual adultery & fornication is when the devil being like the pied-piper playing his deceiving tunes to Man (the roman emperor who devised the rcc), & says - teaches 2 - 3 gods & or persons in a god-head. There's Only 1 God. Man says there's 2 - 3 gods & or persons in a g-head & there is NO such.
This 2 - 3 gods & or persons in a g-head idea came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, first to the Man-made rcc the first trin-church.
---Lawrence on 6/1/10


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