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Making Sign Of The Cross

Certainly praying the Rosary is not biblical, but what can be said about making the sign of the cross? Is making the sign of the cross biblical or more tradition?

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 ---mima on 6/3/10
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Ruben, as I said before, I am sorry there has been no change. Maybe one day you will be free. It could be your Texas pride. I had it once. It disappeared. Praise God, I do love Texas but my pride was just like yours.
---Mark_V. on 6/18/10


Making the sign of the cross seems to help batters in baseball like pointing to the sky and looking up seems to help football players.
---aka.joseph on 6/15/10


MarkV.* Ruben, your reply gives evidence there has been no change in you. I am sorry for that.

One reason is how can someone believe in a fallibe man made interpretation of scripture.

MarkV. * Many do escape from the chains of pride in the RCC and become free to permit the Spirit to bring light to God's Word.

And that Spirit you are following is the spirit of 'Sola Scpritura' which is not taught in scripture.

MarkV. * Many others go back to the teachings of the RCC traditions.

And those who leave are those who say " when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying, who can hear it" and "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him"(Jhn 6:60-66)
---Ruben on 6/15/10


Ruben, your reply gives evidence there has been no change in you. I am sorry for that. It could be you are destine to remain there for reasons only God knows. Many do escape from the chains of pride in the RCC and become free to permit the Spirit to bring light to God's Word. Many others go back to the teachings of the law of works and the RCC traditions. They give evidence also that they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us, but they went out, that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


We already discussed almost every doctrine with Ruben.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10

And you've been wrong on every single one of them.....
---Ruben on 6/14/10




Ignatius, I was confused about what denomination you belong to since they are many and both of you answer to Eastern Orthodox. In fact it doesn't really matter to me which one. It is still the same teachings as the RCC or else you and Cluny would not defend it so much. Which is fine with me. You can defend whatever Truth you feel you should. We already discussed almost every doctrine with Ruben.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


"You and him keep mentioning but never say which Eastern Orthodox you belong to, since there is many and many differences between them." (Mark V)

Which canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction we belong to, whether it is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America or the Orthodox Church of America or the Russian Orthodox Church (headed by The Moscow Patriarchate) or the Russian Orthodox Church Aboard or the Ukrainian Orthodox Church or whatever, it doesn't manner as we all share the same Apostolic Faith, and only differ in local customs/traditions/language and minor differences in the Divine Liturgy.

You are confuse for no reason. If you must know, I belong to the Russian Orthodox Church Aboard.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/13/10


Ignatius, you are back, just like Arnold S. My answer to Cluny was in response to what Eastern Orthodox really means. You and him keep mentioning but never say which Eastern Orthodox you belong to, since there is many and many differences between them. And since most of the questions you both have responded to and defended are from the RCC, I can see that most of their doctrines are your doctrines. Or else neather of you would have responded. Other then the pope most everything is from the Roman Catholic Church.
---MarkV. on 6/13/10


"Churches but not satified as to who they are since so many different teachings" (Mark V)

But there is a difference between the Eastern Orthodox Church (a family of self-governing churches- with the four Ancient Patrarchates such as Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, & Jerusalem and several authocephalaous and autonomous Churches- such as the Greek Orthodox Churches and the Orthodox Church in America) and other Eastern Churches NOT IN COMMUNION with us, such as the Non-Chalcedonian Churches, Armenian Apostolic Churches, Assyrian Church of the East, etc.

It shouldn't be hard finding who we are and what we believe if one go to a canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction website.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/12/10


Cluny, I do believe that Christ was incarnated and rose from the dead. In fact I believe we have a lot of doctrines we agree on. Yet we have a lot that we do not agree on. Also I have taken the time to look at a lot of the teachings from the Eastern Orthodox Churches but not satified as to who they are since so many different teachings from many of the Eastern Orthodox churches all over the East, breaking away from each other for disagreements on Doctrines. So many deferent names attached to the Orthodox Church. But they do have almost all of the same beliefs as the RCC. With the exceptions of the disagreements that broke them apart.
---MarkV. on 6/12/10




\\I do not agree with your church teachings in many area's and only want to discuss those. \\

Do you have any idea what the Orthodox Church teaches, MarkV?

Only then can you say you don't agree with them.

Do you believe that Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead?

That's one of the things Orthodox teach.
---Cluny on 6/12/10


Rob: Until about AD1000 the Orthodox and Catholic churches were together, then they split, 4 sections bacame the Orthodox Church, one (the Bishop of Rome) became the RCC

Cluny does have a point..... and its a much more realistic name than Catholic (the RCC is NOT catholic, as catholic means - the one single church, for everyone)
---Peter3594 on 6/8/10


Cluny, I'm sorry for the words that are said against your person. I do not believe it is right to accuse someone of not been saved. I do not agree with your church teachings in many area's and only want to discuss those. If we discuss anything between us, I want to keep it in a discussion. Nothing can be accomplish by throwing arrows all over the place. I don't like to discuss anything with athiest or those who speak against the deity of Christ. I can discuss doctrines and a little history with you.
Concerning what I said about the RCC church starting at the time of Constantine, I didn't mean when the separation of the church happened between the East and the West. Only when the church took the roots that made the RCC.
---MarkV. on 6/8/10


Cluny, my pleasure, repent and get saved.
---Eloy on 6/6/10


\\Cluny, I suggest that you leave your dead religion and accept the only Salvation, Christ Jesus.
---Eloy on 6/6/10\\

Indulging in ad hominem attacks simply means you cannot refute what I actually say, Eloy.

And if you think I'm not saved, that means I'm in good spiritual shape.

Keep blessing me, Eloy.
---Cluny on 6/6/10


aka Joseph, Sometimes the antiChrist person in the debate will indeed persecute the Christian with their dissing words, and if the Christian is a novice and unexperienced with dealing with the antiChrist spirit in the world, then they may become beaten by the bully. That is why scripture says to "Study to show yourself honorable to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, dividing the word of truth justly." II Tim.2:15. And "Put on the whole armor of God." Ephesians 6:10-18. And again, "the Lord God worship in the hearts of you, and ready always for an answer to everyone asking you a reason for the hope in you, with meekness and respect." I Pt.3:15.
---Eloy on 6/6/10


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I think it is respect to our Lord, even if you weren't a Catholic.
---Ann on 6/6/10


The hardest thing about cults and cult-like behavior, such false religions and self claimed prophets, is that the more that you point out things the more they think you are 'persecuting' them. Therefore, you are attacking their god and the more true their religion must be and that gives them more fuel for the fallacy.

The same is true for true Christianity, however, debate is not persecution like loss of job, imprisonment, or loss of life is. True persecution is coming soon.
---aka.joseph on 6/6/10


I see nothing wrong with it. It's a symbolic gesture that's all. It has no effectiveness on it's own, but if it reminds people of Jesus and what He did for us, then it's worthwhile to them.

Catherine ---//What right do you people have to judge anyone.// Is followed by the MOST judgemental statement on this blog ... My goodness, if you would look in the mirror at yourselves and see what God sees, you would throw-up all over your unholy shoes// Do you, Catherine, have a right that you claim none of the rest of us has? See the irony?
---Donna66 on 6/5/10


Cluny, I suggest that you leave your dead religion and accept the only Salvation, Christ Jesus.
---Eloy on 6/6/10


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iam sure that making this sign will offend those whos doctrine does not accept the trinity,but blessing people in the name of the father son and holy spirit,or making this sign doesn,t bother me
---tom2 on 6/6/10


Cluny, if being orthodox is the first pre-denominational Church how come the Apostle Paul never mentioned them?

Also the Orthodox Religion believes we received the New Testament for some Orthodox Council of Men. If this is true, what was the purpose of the Apstle Paul.

Earlier this year I was watching a documentary on television. I thought is was about the Roman Catholic Church, until a so called Monk showing his Monestary said he was Orthodox.

I see very little difference between those who are Orthodux and those who are Catholic.
---Rob on 6/5/10


\\Cluny, yours what? I have no religion, none at all, for I am a Christian and Christ is not a religion.
---Eloy on 6/5/10\\

Christianity is not a religion only if you don't believe that words have meanings.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm Orthodox--the world's only PRE-denominational Church.
---Cluny on 6/5/10


I told the truth!
---catherine on 6/5/10


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Cluny, yours what? I have no religion, none at all, for I am a Christian and Christ is not a religion.
---Eloy on 6/5/10


Linda wrote:"My goodness, if you would look in the mirror at yourselves and see what God sees, you would throw-up all over your unholy shoes."

The above statement only applies to those to those who are lost but not to those that are saved.

When God looks at the save individual he see the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. It was the giving of his blood at Mount Calvary that makes us acceptable to the father through the Lord Jesus Christ!!!
Thank you Jesus!!!!
---mima on 6/5/10


"My goodness, if you would look in the mirror at yourselves and see what God sees, you would throw-up all over your unholy shoes."

If we would look in the right mirror and really see what God sees, we would worship Him in a way we have never worshiped Him before. He has put more in us than we realize and if we looked into the spirit rather than the flesh, we would find a greater truth than what we can see naturally. The natural man sees natural man because he cannot discern the things of God. The spiritual man, however, sees the revelation of the person and work of Christ and can't help but be thankful.
---Linda on 6/4/10


\\It is more or the same crap, dead religion.
---Eloy on 6/4/10\\

And you actually think that yours is living and true, Eloy?
---Cluny on 6/4/10


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On the contrary, when Jesus is seen (and it doesn't even have to be an up-close view) not even a man full of the Legion can help but worship. When the church begins to walk in what she has been called to, not a devil in the world can stand. Behold, I have given you power (authority) over all power of the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
---Linda on 6/4/10


Catherine, you blow me away with your latest comments. I though Eloy was bad with his but lately you I believe you are leading. I love you though.
---MarkV. on 6/4/10


It is more or the same crap, dead religion.
---Eloy on 6/4/10


What right do you people have to judge anyone. Are you Blood-bought? My goodness, if you would look in the mirror at yourselves and see what God sees, you would throw-up all over your unholy shoes. Only the Blood makes you right with the living God. I love the Blood, it is my guarantee that indeed I belong to the living God. And we wonder why this country is under attack by Satan. Because, there is more devils in it than you can shake a stick at. And most of them are in control. I say get the devils out and God will come in. God is not going to bless a country filled with people who hates Him.
---catherine on 6/4/10


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The 'sign of the cross' is very useful for some, who find that reminds them of the sacrifice of Christ, while others find it simply an action, without Christian usefulness, that can become a danger

Decide for yourself!
---peter3594 on 6/4/10


\\The RCC was really born when they Constantine came into the picture. So much to learn and study about history.\\

I did, and it shows you are wrong in most of what you say.

But because I know history is why I'm not a Western Christian (either Roman Catholic or Protestant) but Orthodox.
---Cluny on 6/3/10


Lawrence, that was a good explanation about history. The real church of Christ was perscuted and even went into hiding. The RCC was really born when they Constantine came into the picture. So much to learn and study about history.
---MarkV. on 6/3/10


\\Still again, making the insignia with the hand
Is just a formality part of the (rcc the first trin-church) idol worship, just like the prayer-beads, graven images etc., & still again in the which came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14-15.\\

Actually, tracing the cross with one's hand was first made by Christians OUTSIDE Rome.

Did you know that?

And Protestants NEVER have formalities, do they?
---Cluny on 6/3/10


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Ruben
They were apostles, NO such a thing as fathers.
The fathers even the first pope of the rcc the first trin-church, the mother apostate church was NO part of the early church. They came around 300 yr's aft God's Church was born on the day of Pentecost according to Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20.
The roman emperor rcc with nero etc & the great crusades went to kill off those in the early Church that was born on the day of Pentecost. They wanted their own following in the which came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15. The rcc offspring churches came later on, & God has Nothing to do with it.
---Lawrence on 6/3/10


It is traditional, and yet not sin or wrong.

There are some traditions that are not sin. Examples: Jesus went to a feast which was a wedding feast, very tradition not sin.

Jesus went to a feast called feast of lights, very traditional and historical, not sin.

Some traditions do not violate the law of God, and are not taken from pagan tradition.

These include feast of light, and feast of purim ( hope i spelled that right) use of a fish to signify christianity, and so on.
---francis on 6/3/10


Lawrence....AMEN! Can you imagine Jesus giving a car away to someone so they would come hear him? Jesus is the only way!!!!!
---KarenD on 6/3/10


God has Nothing to do with it.
---Lawrence on 6/3/10


The Early Church Fathers disagree with you:

Basil, taught that the sign of the cross was a tradition the originated with the apostles, "who taught us to mark with the sign of the cross those who put their hope in the name of the Lord."

Cyril of Jerusalem : "Let us not be ashamed to confess the Crucified.Let the cross, as our seal, be boldly made with our fingers upon our brow...

Even Martin Luther wrote : "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'
---Ruben on 6/3/10


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Mima, there are essentials of the Christian faith that have to be defended, and there is none essentials that many do that does not have to be defended. The sign of the cross should not be one that has to be defended. It is not a doctrine of faith but a tradition of the church that does not effect any doctrine. It is a habit done by the RCC and does not need to be defended. It is a habit but not one that effects your life bad if you do it. I think we should stay on the doctrines that do effect our salvation. The RCC has many doctrines also that we agee in. And both sides defend them. The rosary is bad, it worships Mary. We do not believe in Idol worship.
---MarkV. on 6/3/10


Mima,


Is the sign of the cross biblical? Unless we can see the actions of those in the bible or it is described in some manner like, Lamentations 3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens... we cannot know whether it is biblical.

Perhaps, the tradition came because when Jesus was delivering v.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost... to His disciples, a fly was in his face, and when he tried to swat it, He made a cross like sign, which the Apostles took literally.

Who cares? The only thing I can say is that it seems to edify some people and it seems to upset other people.
---aka.joseph on 6/3/10


I thank God for the cross.
It's the One who died on the cross is supposed to be recognized.

Still again, making the insignia with the hand
Is just a formality part of the (rcc the first trin-church) idol worship, just like the prayer-beads, graven images etc., & still again in the which came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14-15.

God has Nothing to do with it.
---Lawrence on 6/3/10


Mima ... "The FREE chance(not a gamble) that I give away is my method of reaching(compelling them to come in) the unchurched masses"

That says it all!!

Mima ... I know two gambling addict. Both of them say that even if they receive a free raffle ticket for a thing as small as a box of chocolates or bottle of wine, they would be straight back on the slippery slope leading to theft from their wive's purse, from their childrens' savings tin, and from their employers.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/3/10


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Is using a computer Biblical, mima?

How about using hymnals? Where is this permitted or directed?

Where on earth is the word "biblical" used in the Bible? I can't find it in any English version.

Most Christian customs you yourself are fond of, mima, will not be found in the Bible.

Consider this: If the very word "Cross" is foolishness to those who are perishing (as the Slavonic version of the passage puts it), how much more foolish will any visual reminder of it?
---Cluny on 6/3/10


Yes biblical!!!
And it is based on Mark 14:23,
" And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."
The FREE chance(not a gamble) that I give away is my method of reaching(compelling them to come im) the unchurched masses.
I am perfectly willing to be slandered, or accused of causing people to gamble, or anything else unsavory in your mind. I am not trying to impress you I am trying to deliver a message about salvation and how it comes about too people. Question: what is your method of soulwinning Alan.
---mima on 6/3/10


Alan...Thank you. After ministering in Vegas for many years, we can't even understand why Christians think it is a place to visit or that "raffles" are alright for churhes.
---KarenD on 6/3/10


Mima ... Is encouraging people to gamble on winning a car if they attend your mission meetings biblical?
---alan8566_0f_uk on 6/3/10


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