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Is Jesus Lower Than Angels

Was Jesus lower then an angel? Very important blog so that the deity of Christ can be discuss.

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 ---MarkV. on 6/7/10
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Warwick, your 6/16/10 post is very true. I was given all the books from the witnessess by my sister who was a witness herself. I took the New World Translation and put it next to two bibles, Niv, Nkjv and in most cases, where the subject of Christ was talked about, they tried to cover it up with something different as in John 1:1. where "a god" was added to show Jesus was not "God Almighty" but a little god. Yet even after all the changes in their Bible they left much more to be done by them. So I am assuming that in a later time, you will see another Bible with those topics removed also or change. If you do not believe the Holy Scripture they suppose, why not make one and change it' meaning.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/10


A few years ago, when I was just a toddler in Christ, I "studied" with two JWs. I thought I might be able to 'show them the way.' I was always cordial and i always wished them God's blessings. After a few visits, I realized that these men were not there to discuss what I cared about. Then, I read 2 John 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world... 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed [God bless you]:11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
---aka.joseph on 6/16/10


Ruben

No, not until Constantinople 381 was the HS revealed to be 'God' equal to the Father and Son.
---scott on 6/15/10

Wrong:

Now the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son,." Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 8:1 (A.D. 216).

We consider therefore that there are three hypostases, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and at the same time we believe nothing to be uncreated but the Father. We therefore, as the more pious and the truer course, admit that all things were made by the Logos, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was made by the Father through Christ." Origen, Commentary on John, 2:6 (A.D. 229
---Ruben on 6/16/10


John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are many Jesus' out there. Let's make sure our faith is in the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON...ONLY meaning singular. This cannot be Michael since we have Gabriel...another archangel.

The WORD WAS GOD..God is the WORD.

We try to think of the trinity in our human understanding. As a person we are also a triune person..body soul and spirit. Yet ONE.

God is not a body soul and spirit as we, He is SPIRIT/WORD/POWER, working as ONE.


The WORD AKA LOGOS of God became flesh.
---kathr4453 on 6/16/10


Or since they can be filled with the fullness of Christ they are actually Christ?
---scott on 6/16/10

Nowhere in the verses you listed does it say that we can be filled with the DIETY of God.

As these verses point out, we can be filled with God, but not His diety.

Phil 2:6-7 "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men"

What Jesus emptied from Himself was the fullness of the Diety, or glory that Moses asked to see in Exod 33.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/16/10




Scott you try hard.

What we have is Scripture and the person of the Holy Spirit so can discern what God is telling us. With prayer, study and time we discern the difference between real and fake. We need no Councils good or corrupt to establish this.

Jesus and the apostles quoted from/alluded to just the Book of Genesis 200 times, always as historical reality. I do not need any Council to ratify what they have already ratified.

You are fascinated with Councils!

I believe in the Trinity because it is well established in Scripture.
---Warwick on 6/16/10


Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Before Yeshua came in the flesh, He was "The Word" of YaHWeH. The Word has always been with The Father, but the Word is not the Father, though He knows the Father's Mind and follows His Father's Will perfectly.

Yeshua never existed as "The Only BEGOTTEN Son" until He was born in the flesh through Mary around 3 B.C. Though The Word of God was made flesh, He still could command the armies of Heaven and only He sits at the right hand of The Father. He was always greater than the angels and not even Satan could contend with Him during His 40 days of fasting in the wilderness.
---Higgins on 6/16/10


Exodus 3:14. So much Scripture to the eternity of Christ.
I could go on and on.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/10

Amen and I really am enjoying your posts.

Christ is eternal, but before he came in the form of flesh and was known as God's Son, he was and is and always be the Word, according to St. John.
I believe that Jesus is God.
In the beginning he was with God, created all things and IS God.
I believe that God himself, came down, and created a body for himself, was called Christ died for our sins to reconcile us back to himself.
1=3 and 3=1, so God is BOTH.
Also please let us know how things go woth your studies, God bless!
---miche3754 on 6/16/10


My question to you is, do you in fact believe these verses:" Mark_Eaton

Absolutely.

However at Eph. 3:19 we see Paul expressing the thought "that you [Ephesian Christians] may be filled with all the fulness of God" - RSV.

At Eph. 4:13 we find - "until we all attain ... to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" RSV

And at Eph. 1:22, 23 we read- "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all."

Do you feel that because Christians can be filled with all the fullness of God" they are actually God?

Or since they can be filled with the fullness of Christ they are actually Christ?
---scott on 6/16/10


"People like you..." MarkV

Nice Mark.

Re "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting"
Micah 5:2

The RSV, cf. JB, NEB, REB, NAB, NIV, AT, Mo, NRSV, NJB, Byington, and Young's render this verse:

"O Bethlehem ..., from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days"

"Origin"- From the Hebrew 'Motsaah'

Not only does this verse not teach that Jesus has always existed, it even speaks of his origin in very ancient times.

Origin: "a coming into existence" - Webster's New World Dictionary, 1973
---scott on 6/16/10




Christ in the flesh was lower than angels

religious christianity cannot comprehend Christ would have DIED if he sinned and all mankind would perish

Christ was a God always existing prior to being born of flesh - His deity was established in the beginning John 1

per scripture no flesh inherits the Kingdom of God ...becoming flesh Christ gave up his deity becoming firstfruits of MANY to be resurrected to eternal life - as Christ will resurrect those in Him when He returns to earth

per scripture glorified Christ returned to his deity after his resurrection ...now sitting at the right hand of The Father in Heaven

no angel is sitting on The Fathers Throne - angels worship The Father in Heaven at His throne
---Rhonda on 6/16/10


"We only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We don't need councils, or dictators to believe in the Trinity. "Warwick

And yet with only a cursory study of church history we find that it was theses very councils that determined what was the orthodox view.

Constantine who officiated over the council of Nicea (a council that did not 'ratify' the trinity doctrine) was a sun worshipper and only became 'christian' on his deathbed.

In reality then, since no scripture states that everlasting life is dependent on belief in the trinity (a mandate given at Constantinople 381) then who really is following the words of men rather than scripture?

Sounds a little cultic.
---scott on 6/16/10


Scott:

I must agree with Warwick. We need only the Bible and the HS and not Councils to determine truth about Jesus.

My question to you is, do you in fact believe these verses:

2 Pet 1:20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"

Do you in face, believe that Scripture is spoken from God? If so, then you must believe verses like this:

Col 2:9 "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"
---Mark_Eaton on 6/16/10


Scott, there is no quick answer in explaining the deity of Christ. In fact I have been studying Christology now for two months, and am just scratching the surfice. The case with all cults is, they pull passages without explaining why that passage says what it says. People like you have been around since Christ came. They either do not believe in His incarnation, resurrection, birth, His humanity, His prexistance, and His deity as God. The Old Testament people only looked forward to the coming of Christ. Even when He appeared many times in different manifestations. In Messianic prophecy Christ is spoken of as the Child to be born in Bethlehem "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" Micah 5:2.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/10


Scott 2: first, I do not hate you. The answers Ruben gave you were correct. That is only throwing one's opinion on what happened and why. The Truth of Christ can only be known by the Holy Spirit revealing it to you. There is much I do not know, but my faith allows me to find out. Isaiah 9:6 Christ is declared to be not only "Mighty God" but also "Everlasting Father" or, better translated, "Father of eternity" The name Jehovah frequently given to Christ as well as to God the Father and the Holy Spirit is another assertion of eternity, for this title is defined as referring to the eternal "I AM" Exodus 3:14. So much Scripture to the eternity of Christ.
I could go on and on.
---Mark_V. on 6/16/10


When you compare the JW New world Translation to their own Greek Interlinear you notice they have changed the English to support their erroneous view.

See Romans 14:8-9 where in the NIV, RSV,KJV etc the Greek root word Kyrios is correctly and logically translated as Lord four times. The final verse being "For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

The JW New World Translation translates Kyrios as 'Jehovah' 3 times but when Kyrios refers to Jesus it uses 'Lord' thereby avoiding applying Jehovah to Jesus! This is illogical and incorrect when viewed in the light of their own Greek Interlinear.
---Warwick on 6/16/10


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Fascinating to watch you (mark5)avoid answering simple and direct questions and instead, formulate entirely unrelated topics for you to pontificate upon.---scott on 6/15/10

Pontification runs amok.
A wolf we're warned, ha....I haven't seen you trash-can the prophets of the Old Covenant. You are searching, you will find what you are searching for.
Here is logic it took 40 years to logic for me...ha. Smart ain't i.
All branded religions...have somethings right. 1/2, 3/4 even 99% is not light though. The prophets and Scripture witnesses get it 100% right. When pontificating expounders/branded denoms avoid these. Why be yoked? If they won't/can't hear or see?
---Trav on 6/16/10


Scott, having had long first and second-hand experience with various cults I am aware of the very negative consequences of following them. Breaking up families is a common one.

I have been fortunate enough to meet a few who 'studied' with the JW's and got them out before they were indoctrinated. A certain point occurs after which they cannot think independantly.

As regards the Trinity and councils, Kath sums it up well "God gave us His Word. No one needs to sit around for hundreds of years formulating concepts of doctrine."

Reuben's comment regarding problems caused by Arianism is also very relevant. Much earlier NT writers, wrote against various errors and heresies which were, even then, creeping in.
---Warwick on 6/16/10


//I would like to clarify 'begotten' and 'firstborn' in my understanding at this time.
Jesus is the only begotten (Son) of God but He is also the firstborn from the dead.
We must know and maintain this difference to keep wolves in sheep's clothing at bay.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
'begotten' is His relation to the Father, 'firstborn' is His relation to us.//
---micha9344 on 6/15/10
---aka.joseph on 6/16/10


Scott, as Kath says we only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We don't need councils, or dictators to believe in the Trinity.

As we know the OT describes God Almighty as the only Creator and Saviour. However in the NT these exclusive titles are given to Jesus. In fact Peter (2 Peter 1:1) calls Jesus "our God and Saviour." Paul, (Titus chs. 2 and 3) writes of "God our Saviour," and "Christ Jesus our Saviour," then puts it all together with "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." How many Gods and Saviours are there?

And as Ephesians 1:20 says God has placed Jesus at His right hand signifying that Jesus is God's equal.

Jesus is God.
---Warwick on 6/16/10


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Scott, Interesting reading on both sides.

However, see verses 5, 6, 11, 12, 20. If you take 7 and 8 apart. The former verses say what was taken out.

Anyway, Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Name of... not names of.
---aka.joseph on 6/15/10


"You know explaining the deity of Christ would take many post for anyone to answer." Mark_V.

How many posts do you think it would take for a Jew (as well as many non-Jews) to answer that question regarding the deity of YHWH?

That would be very easy. With the inspired text of the OT along with the NT, the pre-Christian Jew, the 1st century Jewish Christian convert and the modern day Jew could all easily cite many verses that clearly identify YHWH (Jehovah) as the Almighty.

In addition to those Jews, many who consider themselves Christian today (who have rejected the false teaching of the trinity) find your question very easy to answer as well.

How about Psalm 83:18?
---scott on 6/15/10


It is obvious that scott has the Arian view in which both the councils were conveined to address and also obviously discounted to which a formal statement was made to the agreement of over 300 only but 3 disagreed and were from the same school of thought and not from Apostolic teachings...2nd century Elders confirm the true teachings...
Newer Arians focus on a word (trinity) to try to disprove this, but cannot tell us when this word was first used.. Why would the word be in a book that was written before the word was actually used? There are many words that express a past concept, yet was not used in the past, i.e. prehistoric.
Shall we continue to quote 2nd and 3rd century christians only for scott and others to be blind to truth?
---micha9344 on 6/15/10


MarkV,

My simple question to you 'what kind of God does that?' was directly and obviously related to the context above. (6/15/10)

Providing an equally simple answer should be easy for someone like you who assumes such an enlightened, theological posture.

Fascinating to watch you avoid answering simple and direct questions and instead, formulate entirely unrelated topics for you to pontificate upon.

Though I don't expect you to, feel free to re-read my comments and offer a straight forward answer.

Really quite interesting to behold.
---scott on 6/15/10


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Scott, I heard your comments before "what kind of God is that?" some say, what kind of God would make some for heaven and let the others go to hell? Or, if God did that, we would be robots, but they forget they make God a robot they can use when they want.
Your a J. Witness the very wolves I was talking about. The reason they are called cults. In your heart, your job is to trash the deity of Christ. You know that explaining the deity of Christ would take many post for anyone to answer. And here we are not allowed that many, for some are deleted, and in no way can anyone in one short post bring the real Truth to you. Even if they could, it would take an act of God for you to belief it. A revelation only the Spirit can bring.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/10


aka.joseph on 6/15/10

"labels do not mean anything." Fair enough.

Regarding 1 Jo 5:7, 8-

Dig a little deeper. You'll find the so called 'Johannine comma' was not part of the oldest manuscripts. Why it is allowed to remain in modern bibles is most telling as well.
---scott on 6/15/10


"It was confirm in Nicea 325 because that when someone question about the Trinity." Ruben

No, not until Constantinople 381 was the HS revealed to be 'God' equal to the Father and Son.
---scott on 6/15/10


"it brings the wolves out..."MarkV

Yes MarkV, wouldn't it be so much easier if the inspired bible writers had, not only used the word trinity, but better still, provided a clear description of what it was.

Paul used, essentially, the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 to teach and describe the concept of the resurrection, Romans chapter 4 to teach salvation by faith, etc.

Wouldn't this teaching, absolutely foreign to pre-Christian Jews, require a little explanation? Especially if (as decreed 100s of years later and not in scripture) their very eternal lives were dependent on excepting this teaching?

What kind of loving God does that?
---scott on 6/15/10


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Scott, You can call yourself a baptist that studies with JWs if you want, but titles and labels do not mean anything.

In the Bible version that I prefer (as well as most baptists) in 1Jo 5:7 it says: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This was written decidedly before 325 or 381. Amen?
---aka.joseph on 6/15/10


As is usullay the case.. a explanation or correction is not needed until a division or misdirection starts.. such is the case when Arius and a couple followers of the same view came to the council with his heretical views of Christ. He was outvoted, by most accounts, over 300 to 3, the 300+ being from churches that were all over the known world at that time. All these churches had the same view of corruption? or was Arius' viewpoint not in accord with the Apostolic teachings?
God can be seen in His fulness throughout scripture, confounding the wise, and being misunderstood by the natural.
---micha9344 on 6/15/10


scott * If the trinity was clearly understood and believed by 1st century Christians why was that concept not simply confirmed (yes 'ratified') in Nicea 325?

It was confirm in Nicea 325 because that when someone question about the Trinity,

Namely-Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)

The 1st century Christians did believe in the Trinity:

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all, for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
---Ruben on 6/15/10


As many unbiased historians have observed, this was a concept that took hundreds of years to formulate.
---scott on 6/15/10


Only for the RCC Scott.

God gave us His Word. No one needs to sit around ofr hundreds of years formulating concepts of doctrine.

The Holy Spirit is our teacher...and reveals truth to those who are saved. Thank goodness it doesn't take us ( we don't live that long) hundreds of years for us to formulate and understand.
---kathr4453 on 6/15/10


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Why was the 3rd part of the trinity (HS) not described as God (part of the three-in-one) until Constantinople 381 ce, 56 years later?

---scott on 6/15/10

Scott, it was confirm again in 381 because of this :

Arianism was causing much confusion to the Christians. First Council of Constantinople put a stamp on the HS.

Polycarp of Smyrna

"I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 [A.D. 155] emphasis added).
---Ruben on 6/15/10


Constantine and Constantinople - Warwick

Thank you for your humble, Christlike concern.

But your casual dismissal of any significant difference between the Council of Constantine (your title- actually the Council of Nicea) and Constantinople, overlooks what has given many (including Baptists like me) great pause:

If the trinity was clearly understood and believed by 1st century Christians why was that concept not simply confirmed (yes 'ratified') in Nicea 325?

Why was the 3rd part of the trinity (HS) not described as God (part of the three-in-one) until Constantinople 381 ce, 56 years later?


As many unbiased historians have observed, this was a concept that took hundreds of years to formulate.
---scott on 6/15/10


I know there is a part in the old testament (I believe Moses and the burning bush), where Moses asks who he should say sent him, and God replys "I AM." Somewhere in one of the Gospels Jesus calls himself "I AM." We all know that angels are lower then God, and therefore, if God AND Jesus are both I AM, then angels ARE lower then Jesus.
---Jessica on 6/15/10


"They will not release its translators or their credentials". aka.joseph


"We have not used any scholar's name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God's Word should stand on its merits."


My apologies. I failed to provide the source for this quote. (I'm sure in your honest search for truth, this would be important.

The above quote is attributed to the translation committee of the
New American Standard Bible.

Just what are they trying to hide?
---scott on 6/15/10


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Titles of Christ:

Firstborn over all creation:
Head of the Church:
Holy One:
Judge:
King of kings and Lord of lords:
Light of the World:
Prince of peace:
Son of God: Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14). Used 42 times in the New Testament, Son of God affirms the deity of Christ.
Son of man: Word:
Word of God:
Word of Life: )
Alpha and Omega:
Emmanuel: Literally God with us.

I Am:
Lord of All:
True God: (
Bread of Life:
Good Shepherd:
High Priest:
Lamb of God:
Rock:
Resurrection and Life:
Savior:
True Vine:
Way, Truth, Life:
---kathr4453 on 6/15/10


Even though they are still God and the Word, time affected this infite being in such a way as to obtain new titles.
Does anyone else see something wrong here?
---micha9344 on 6/15/10

well micha9344, there are many titles given to Christ. Prince of Peace, Son of David, The LAMB of God. Was the Lamb of God always the Lamb? Or was the Word/GOD who was made flesh, come at at perticular time in our History?
---kathr4453 on 6/15/10


Oh, I get it. God changed and became the Father. The Word changed and became the Son.
This must have happened to an infinite being at a point in time. Even though they are still God and the Word, time affected this infite being in such a way as to obtain new titles.
Does anyone else see something wrong here?
---micha9344 on 6/15/10


Kathr, I appriciate that you answered the way you did. Though it is a concept that is hard to understand, it is very important that we do not make comments that go against the deity of the Son, because He never became the Son, if He did, then we have a created being. The Father was always the Father, and the Son was always the Son. Thats why when we make a comment like what you said before, it brings the wolves out, the cults who love to trash the deity of Christ. Jehovah Witnessess have a field day with what you said. So do Mormons. And it is why a good study into the Trinity should be made before addressing the deity of Christ. To just throw things to the wind is not recommanded. Again thanks for your kind answer.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/10


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MarkV, I don't doubt the Trinity, however we know the word is not used in scripture. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit used only in the NT, is clear, however no such words are used in the OT.

The Trinity is absolutely impossible for the human mind to grasp. To try and do so, is man's attempt to explain it. When we get to Heaven God will explain it.


I find no OT scripture supporting an eternal son before His incarnation. I do find numerous scriptures addressing the second person, if that's what we want to say, as THE WORD( apparently keeping His name THE WORD in Revelation. His Name is called THE WORD of God.

THIS DAY I have begotten you certainly addresses a day in time.

This is what I will always believe.
---kathr4453 on 6/15/10


Scott, yes I see my great error. I wrote Constantine when I should have written Constantinople.

Nonetheless my comments stand. A ratification of a belief is not the creation of a belief.

As has been discussed before, and ignored by you, there is more than adequate Biblical proof that Jesus, being The Creator is God. Biblical references are ignored by you.

The problem is that being a student of the Watchtower Society you are like a citizen of a dictatorship. You, and he, are told what to believe and can be disfellowshipped/imprisoned should you voice opposition to the party line.
---Warwick on 6/14/10


"The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs. The New World Bible Translation Committee went through the Bible and changed any Scripture that did not agree with Jehovah's Witness theology. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that as new editions to the New World Translation were published, additional changes were made to the biblical text. As biblical Christians continued to point out, Scriptures that clearly argue for the deity of Christ (e.g.), the Watchtower Society would publish a new edition of the New World Translation with those Scriptures changed." gotquestions
---aka.joseph on 6/14/10


Jesus is The Almighty God who created every angel to serve him, and his angels worship him their Maker. "And let all the angels of God worship him. The Son of man will send forward his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and will cast them into a furnace of fire: there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Hebrews 1:6+ Matthew 13:41,42.
---Eloy on 6/15/10


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Laura, I believe you misread what was written in the 117 and 118 of "The kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin and aditted by Hank Hanegraaff. No where on those two pages are other passages does it say what you quoted. What you quoted is what the Jehovah witnessess claim. You need to read the passages again. The only spot that mentions something to your comments is found when Arius took the popular folk tunes of his day and composed new lyrics expressing his heretical views.
---Mark_V. on 6/15/10


Kathr 3, as to your answer, the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit subsist or exist under the pure essence of deity. Concerning Christ, the divine attributes ascribe to Christ present a clear revelation that in Him "the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily" Col. 2:9. Every attribute related to Deity or ascribed to the Father or the Holy Spirit can also be attributed to Christ. Only in Their personal properties is it possible to distinquish the Members of the Trinity and in no case are these properties such as the term Father, any reflection on the deity of Christ. Since the council of Nicaea in 325 there has been no denial of the deity and eternity of the Christ, which did not also deny the infallibility of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


Well, Jesus didn't look much like either. Fools, didn't know who they were whipping up on. Didn't know that they were putting their in-piety hands on holy God. They thought that they were above the law, God's laws. They thought that they were above God. Ha, Ha Ha. Those wicked men in power. THE SON OF GOD. What fools. WELL, THEY ARE BURNING IN HELL, NOW. HA, HA,. There is justice after all.
---catherine on 6/14/10


Kathr 2: Please post,
Tritheism, on the other hand, falsely declares that there are three beings who together make up God.
The term person does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead. Each person subsists or exists "under" the pure essence of deity. All persons have the attributes of deity.
There is also a distinction in the work done by each member of the Trinity. The work of salvation is in one common to all three persons of the Trinity. Yet the manner of activity there are differing operations. The Father initiates creation, and redemption, The Son redeems the creation, and the Holy Spirit regenerates and sanctifies, applying redemption to believers.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


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"They will not release its translators or their credentials". aka.joseph

You may (or may not) find this of interest-

"We have not used any scholar's name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God's Word should stand on its merits."
---scott on 6/14/10


Kathr, I believe you have no idea what the Trinity is. Because if you did you would not be asking questions like,
"Would that include the Father as well, He was BEFORE the Father?
Mark does the Father also consist IN HIM?"

Though the term Trinity is not in the Bible the concept is clearly there. On the one hand the Bible strongly affirms the unity of God (Deut. 6:4). On the other hand the Bible clearly affirms the full deity of the three persons of the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Church has rejected the heresies of modalism and trithism. Modalism denies the distinction of persons within the Godhead, claiming that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just ways of God expressing Himself.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


I find it very interesting that this verse does not say, the Lord said to His eternal Son, sit here....I wonder why.

Colossians again is saying GOD created all things for Himself!!! We also see in 1st Corinthians..after Jesus as Son of God/Son of Man reigns and rules, that ALL WILL BE DELIVERED UP TO THE FATHER...

Many want to use this and insist there was the eternal son all along. What this scripture is stating is Jesus Christ IS GOD. The one who created the heavens and earth.
---kathr4453 on 6/14/10


Please post.


aka-Joseph here is what MarkV quoted. In () markv added the Son, however I see no such words in scripture. Where in all of scripture does any scripture explicitly say the eternal Son created all things for Himself? Not even john 1:3.

For by Him (the Son), all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."---MarkV. on 6/12/10

Would that include the Father as well, He was BEFORE the Father?

Mark does the Father also consist IN HIM?
---kathr4453 on 6/14/10


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---Warwick on 6/13/10
Scott,... What denomination do you attend?

JW...No, correction, he studies with them.
---aka.joseph on 6/14/10


The Scripture nowhere calls Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God, and He is never called Son at all prior to the incarnation, except in prophetic passages in the Old Testament. The term "Son" itself is a functional term, as is the term "Father" and has no meaning apart from time. . . . Many heresies have seized upon the confusion created by the illogical "eternal Sonship" or "eternal generation" theory of Roman Catholic theology, unfortunately carried over to some aspects of Protestant theology. Finally, there cannot be any such thing as eternal Sonship . . . . the word "Son" definitely suggests inferiority. [Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults [Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1985) 117-118.]
---Laura on 6/14/10


The word begotten has more meanings than "birthed by".

There are 4 different words used for begotten in the Greek:
(OT)
mowledeth - kindred, nativity, born, begotten, issue, native,
(NT)
monogens - only begotten, only, only child,
prtotokos - firstborn, first begotten,
huios - son(s), Son of Man, Son of God, child(ren), Son, his Son, Son of David, my beloved Son, thy Son, only begotten Son, his (David's) son, firstborn son

The New World Translation is not based on the original Greek. It is a book produced by the Watchtower org, and they will not release its translators or their credentials. "Birthed by" is the only meaning that Watchtower releases to its subordinates.
---aka.joseph on 6/14/10


I didn't write Hebrews. If that is your interpretation of it, so be it. But It still says He made the worlds by His Son.
Hebrews also references the Psalms verse to His Son a millenia before His birth.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
kathr4453, you can imagine all you want, but God was always a Father to His Son, the begotten Word.
There was never a time when God, the Father was Sonless or Wordless.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---micha9344 on 6/14/10


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Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,micha9344 on 6/14/10
OK, but are you suggesting before these last days HIS SON did not speak to us?

In the OT the WORD of the Lord came to prophets speaking...Jeremiah 1:4
Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jeremiah 1:3-5
Jeremiah 1:11
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah,
Jeremiah 1:10-12
Jeremiah 1:13
And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,..

Who is the WORD of the Lord.

To say God always had a Son is to deny the TRUE understanding of the trinity. 3 separate beings???
---kathr4453 on 6/14/10


"Likewise the Council of Constantine, to which you refer..." Warwick

In your haste to pontificate some self-important and unsolicited response, clearly you have (big surprise) not actually read my comments.

I have 'referred' to no such thing.
---scott on 6/14/10


"In Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9

2.


Trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up" "(a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23...in 3:19, of their being filled ...`with' all the fulness of God, of their being 'made full' in Him, Col. 2:10." Expository Dictionary of NT Words, p. 426

New International Dictionary of NT Theology:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-18 is entirely related to Christ's cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, 1986, 1991
---scott on 6/14/10


Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom
Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
There was never a time when God was Sonless, Wordless, or Wisdomless.
Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
---micha9344 on 6/14/10


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MarkV, what you have is a total confusion about God in the flesh.

The reason so many do not believe in the deity of Christ is because of the eternal son theory, believing the eternal son from before His birth was subordinate to God in eternity past. He was only subordinate (he made himself in submission to the Father).

The eternal son did not become the Begotten son. There is only ONE SON..and that is the BEGOTTEN SON. This day have I begotten you...

That day was when Mary was over shadowed by
the Holy Spirit.

Angels were also sons of God...and they are eternal..but are not Begotten...birthed by God.
---kathr4453 on 6/14/10


Kathr4453, could you please tell me the verse number in which Son was added?
---aka.joseph on 6/14/10


"For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily." Col. 2:9 MarkV

1.


As you are perhaps aware, having "the fulness" of someone or something could similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. This is why the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:

"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734, pg 4

Likewise when we read at Eph. 1:22, 23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all Christians are actually Christ do we?
---scott on 6/14/10


MarkV, Genesis says, in the beginning GOD created the heavens and earth.

John says, the WORD became flesh. Hebrews says the worlds were framed by the WORD of God.

your previous scripture quoted where you added SON, is not there, you added it. These verses are telling us teh WORD always existed.

The word was with God and the WORD was God. John does not say In the beginning was the eternal son, and the eternal son was with God and the eternal son was God. Son was with God and the Son was God.

GOD became flesh.

I believe just like scripture tells it.


Can you show any scripture in the OT referring to the eternal SON.

---kathr4453 on 6/14/10


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Micha, thank you for that information which is very true. Scott seems to believe that at that time the Son was made eternal by the church but he is wrong. He was always considered eternal. What happen at those meetings was to make clear the stand of the church when it was attack by heresy. And Jesus deity is always attack. It nothing new. "For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily" (Col. 2:9). It was decreed by God from eternity past that Christ should become incarnated, that He should suffer the death on the Cross for the sin of the world, and that He should triumph in His resurrection, in the salvation of all who believe, and in the ultmate consummation of God's plan.
---MarkV. on 6/14/10


"...in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation, and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King..." Irenaeus(2nd century)Against Heresies Book I
"The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by, and is therefore distinct from and inferior to, God the Father"-wiki
This Arian view which some promote was deemed heresy in the 4th century because of its conception and promotion starting late in the 3rd century. Read earlier writing to see truth.
---micha9344 on 6/13/10


Scott, Christian fundamentalism arose in the late 19th, and early 20th century. They confirmed their belief in the Biblical docrtrines of inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ.

They did not invent them, simply stated they were the fundamentals of Christianity.

Likewise the Council of Constantine, to which you refer, confirmed what Christians believed. The doctrine of the Trinity is firmly established, and believed by those who hold to Scripture as opposed to those who belong to man-made organizations who dictate personal belief.

What denomination do you attend?
---Warwick on 6/13/10


"He was God as the second person of the Trinity...very true." Kathr 2, MarkV

Notice there are no scriptural references provided to support this claim.

This would not become Church doctrine until the council of Constantinople 381 ce.

Yes, that's 348 years after the death of Christ and 283 years after the last Bible writer (John) died.

To provide some perspective, 348 years ago there were only about 1,500,000 colonists living in America.

Slavery was only abolished 145 years ago in the US.

283 years after the last inspired stroke was made in God's word provided a vast amount of time for uninspired men to muddy and adulterate the clear waters of first century Christianity.
---scott on 6/13/10


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There was never a time in eternity when God was Sonless, Wordless, or Wisdomless.
Malachi 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
He has always had His Word, His Wisdom, His title as Father.
---micha9344 on 6/12/10


Kathr 2: You also said,
"He was God as the second person of the Trinity."
This statement is very true. He was the second person of the Trinity from all eternity. He did not become the Son of God when He was born of Mary. He was always the Son. One question you have to ask yourself is, if Jesus became the Son when He was incarnated, then the Father became the Father at that time. Which is not true at all. The Father has existed from eternity, The Son, has also and so has the Holy Spirit. The Son claimed that He was the I AM. How could the Son claim such a deed?
---MarkV. on 6/12/10


Kathr, Sorry, your wrong concerning the Son of God. He was always the Son. That He has many titles is a fact. He was not made the Son at His birth.
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Him (the Son) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He (the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him (the Son) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

Joseph, your answer was right on.
---MarkV. on 6/12/10


The Real meaning:

Hebrews 1:4. the word "made" is ginomai, meaning, "to become." Not CREATED Hebrews 1:4 is referring to Christ as God's Son. Christ as a man became lower than angels. But as a result of His faithful obedience, He was exalted above the angels, (Phil 2) which is where He had been before. (John 17).

Christ became the Son of God at His incarnation. He wasnt the Son of God in eternity past, He was God as the second person of the Trinity. For a while He was lower than the angels,(in His Humility WHEN the WORD was MADE flesh( ginomai Heb 1:4) . He became better than the angels as the exalted Son. Phil 2..God HIGHLY EXALTED HIMWHEN/WHY????.
---kathr4453 on 6/10/10


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Hebrews tells us WHY Jesus was made lower than the angels....FOR the suffering of death.

Hebrews 2:9-10

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
---kathr4453 on 6/10/10


Amen cluny,
right on point
---francis on 6/10/10


Amen cluny,
Good thinking.
---char on 6/8/10


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