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What Is A Sinful Action

How can we know if our actions are sinful?

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 ---jerry6593 on 6/18/10
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MarkV- In reality, you believe in an unjust God. Your God would punish someone with an eternity of torture for something they had done in the space of 70 or 80 years of imperfect life. You not only believe in an unjust God, but also one who is unloving & unforgiving.

Christ never uttered the word 'hell', nor did he teach people are given eternal life to experience this torture. You also refuse to recognise the fact that the demon knew he was to be destroyed ('apollymi') at Mark 1:24 in the 'everlasting fire' of Mt.25:41. Thus it's you who promotes a 2nd false gospel.

God gives eternal life only to the righteous (Ro.6:23). For unrepentant sinners and those promoting falsehoods, God's wrath will be in the form of eternal death.
---David8318 on 9/30/10


MarkV-
//In fact the reason we need salvation, because it's salvation from the wrath of God.///

I Agree.

We are all subject to error-ALL of us.
I stand in agreement with you on this statement.
And the beauty behind the truth of who Christ is-that would be the Word of God in flesh and in agreement confirming it
(Holy Sprirt within those who believe)---Now.
(Yehovah saves by HIS Word-Yeshua)---The 'Word of God is Eternal-Truth--Period. Proven through Christ resurrection.

If this is not confessed-it is another gospel being preached.

Blessing brother.
---char on 9/30/10


David, I never say someone is saved or not, I can assume all I want but I don't know. I do not try to find out, for when I answer I assume everyone who answers is saved already. I listen to what they say and it gives me a clue if they are preaching another gospel or not.
As to answer your questions below, which one's? You made a lot of statements with no questions. If you are saying that God is a God of love and not burn anyone in hell, then you don't know the gospel of Christ. You don't know the God of Scripture. Your God is only Love, Mine is a God of Love and Justice, who brings wrath on those who rebel against Him. So yes, you are preaching another gospel.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


David, 2 continue: My response to you on 9/29/10 was not saying you were lost. Only that what you say, is what the lost say and think. There is no hell, so what why worry about rebelling against God. In fact the reason we need salvation, because it's salvation from the wrath of God. So to not believe God is also just, really gives no reason to except Christ as your Savior since He cannot save your from no wrath to come. But in no way do I believe you are not saved. In the end only God knows. If someone is really lost, they need to know about the wrath of God. I hope you don't think I go around judging everyone heart whether they are saved or not.
---MarkV. on 9/29/10


Well can I suggest MarkV that before you start to get on your self-righteous soap box and begin to suggest who is saved and who is not, that you get your facts straight.

If you think you are preaching the truth, perhaps you can have a go at answering the questions I have posed below. Maybe then we can see whether you are preaching what is true and scriptural.
---David8318 on 9/29/10




David, I am not worried about you at all. Not one bit. If I worried about others salvation and what they believe I would be a mess today. My duty is to present the Truth. Not to force anyone to believe what I believe to be true. That is not my duty as a Christian. It is my duty to be prepared Scripture, and present it for the glory of God and that is it. I don't take care of anything else, God does the work through His Word. I cannot change no one, I cannot save anyone soul, not even mine. God does all that. Nice talking to you.
---MarkV. on 9/28/10


To my understanding,
God declared the end from the beginning-within Him is completion.(Is 46:11-Mt 13:33)
He is Complete.
We-are still going through this process.
Two different time-frames.
In this day-symbolism is used to respresent the day that is already completed.
That is the reality-
In Gods day this is already complete.
Jn 19:30
Rev 22:21
In this day only In-Christ we have victory.

To the question-How can we know if our actions are sinful?

Check and ask who is being edified through your them-you or God.
The Holy Spirit Works through us as our mind is renewed with HIS WORD and no other.
To Him be the Glory.
---char on 9/28/10


MarkV- Work out your own salvation, don't worry about me. Wisdom is not saving me from hell-fire because hell in the shape and form you believe does not exist for the scriptural reasons I have given- which you are unable to dispute.

The demon knew he was going to be destroyed in the 'everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels', the same fire the unrepentant wicked are sent.- Mark 1:24, Mt.25:41.

Death 'acquits' a person of previous sins.- Romans 6:7.

God is a God of love, and burning people alive in fire is something 'detestable' and not in God's heart to do. Jer.7:31, 1 Jo.4:8.

The fact that you confuse reality with symbolisms in your comments 9/22/10 show you simply do not know what you're talking about.
---David8318 on 9/27/10


MarkV takes OT scripture spoken to rebellious Israel and applies them to ALL TODAY that no one cares about God. Now if that's not the pot calling the kettle black.


We see Cornelius who shows a man NOT DEPRAVED, and also not BORN again of the Spirit either praying to GOD!!! God sends Peter to share the Gospel of Salvation with Cornelius and his household. The Holy Spirit THEN falls on then and THEN they are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/27/10


David8318, here is how you sound to me from your answers. You sound like you are not even saved. Here is why, the world doesn't care about God. They rebel against Him all the time. They murder, envy, cheat, lie, and everything you can think of with no worry at all, anyway in the end they will just die just like everyone. Why even come to Christ to forgive you for your rebellion? Who cares of the afterlife? Why not do what I want. There is no hell, and for that matter there is no God to punish me after. Your wisdom will not get you out of hell. God does not sin, He gives justice.
You again gave passages in Jer. out of context again which have nothing to do with what God has commanded He would do, only those He commanded them not to do.
---MarkV. on 9/27/10




Donna66: "Jerry6593 -- If you are a Christian and the Holy Spirit lives within you, HE will let you know when you have sinned...if you listen."

Do you think that He will ever speak in opposition to the revealed Word? Is the standard different for different people? Is the LAW that He writes in our hearts different than the LAW He wrote in stone with His own finger? If so, why?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---jerry6593 on 9/27/10


Jerry6593 -- If you are a Christian and the Holy Spirit lives within you, HE will let you know when you have sinned...if you listen.
One promise of the new covanent is (Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
---Donna66 on 9/26/10


MarkV- When something is destroyed, it is gone forever. Everyone desires the end of wickedness- and it will happen. Wickedness in the form of the 'Devil and his angels' and wicked people will be destroyed forever, never to return. In that sense, their destruction when it happens will be eternal or everlasting (Mt.25:41-46).

A fundamental, inescapable truth is the fact that 'eternal life' is given only to the 'righteous' (Mt.25:46, Ro.6:23). No where scripturally is eternal life given to wicked ones. Wicked people will not be given eternal life to experience anything. Their punishment is eternal death, with no hope of resurrection. Matthew 10:28 confirms some will be destroyed forever, symbolically thrown to 'Gehenna', never to return.
---David8318 on 9/26/10


"Eternal destruction" is a self contradictory term

Once a thing has been destroyed, you cannot go on destroying it.

Similarly "everlasting annihilation"
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/26/10


MarkV- God's justice is perfect. But I do believe you are now trying to 'water-down' your hell-fire doctrine.

So you believe burning someone conscious for the rest of eternity in fire is not cruel? If your young son or daughter sinned against you, would you hold their hand over a hot stove as punishment and watch them scream mercifully? You believe such punishment is not cruel?

When cruel men burned their sons and daughters in fire in the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) as a sacrifice, what was Jehovah's reaction?

'...a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.'- Jer.7:31, 19:5 & 32:35.

Regarding God's justice- Romans 6:7 reads, 'For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.'
---David8318 on 9/26/10


MarkV- That the 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of eternal destruction can be deduced from what the demon said to Jesus at Mark 1:24, and the correct understanding of 'apollymi'.

Jesus said at Matthew 25:41 that the 'everlasting fire' had been prepared for 'the Devil and his angels'.

The Greek word 'apollymi' (destroy) is used at Mark 1:24 to describe what the demon knew to be his fate. The demon's question to Jesus- 'Did you come to destroy (apollymi) us?'

So the 'everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels' (Mt.25:41) is symbolic of eternal destruction with no hope of return, for 'the Devil and his demons' as well as 'goat-like' wicked people who show no consideration for Christ.
---David8318 on 9/26/10


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David, "everlasting annihilation?" and on going process? Give us a break. And to show how right you are you give Matthew 10:28 without context. Of course God is able to kill the body and the soul. God is able to do what He wants, it does not mean He does. He could save the whole world if He wanted, but doesn't.
The problem with those who reject hell, the ungodly, because they don't believe in God's justice, will not be separation from God, they would love that since they are separated from God already, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.
---MarkV. on 9/26/10


David 2 continue: And here is another thing why your theory is wrong, we can tatke it in full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust and God is not unjust. If all were annihilated there would be no punishment, and sins would not be punished justly. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. Punishment involves pain. Mere annihilation, which you have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards in preaching Rev. 6:15,16 said,
Wiched men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God"
---MarkV. on 9/26/10


Somehow, this blog has morphed into a "hell-fire" blog. But how do you keep from sinning and from ending up in the lake of fire if you don't know whether or not you are sinning?

The 'atheist claims "a sinful action is as always anything Jerry wants it to be." I don't agree with that, but I'd be curious to learn what determines an atheist's definition of sin (or if he even thinks there is such a thing).

The Bible says that sin is defined by the transgression of the law. But many claim that they are "free from the law" - free to sin, I suppose.

What do you think?
---jerry6593 on 9/26/10


MarkV- Jesus never mentioned the word 'hell'. The word hell is from the English word 'helan', which meant to conceal or cover. In the old English dialect the saying, 'helling potatoes' meant not to roast them, but simply to put them in the ground or in the cellar.

The word 'hell' is not a Bible word, and not one Jesus used. Rather, 'hell' is used by some translators in place of such words as the Greek word 'Gehenna', to promote the false hell-fire doctrine.

The 'destruction' Jesus spoke of would be everlasting. Annihilation is ongoing, That which is destroyed is forever gone. Never to return. (Mt.10:28)
---David8318 on 9/26/10


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MarkV- you are beginning to sound a little bit contradictory if not confused.

You stated on 9/22/10: 'I do believe people will be conscious during their time in hell.'

Again on 9/22/10 (referring to the 'Lake of Fire' etc...): 'I suspect they are symbols.'

How can someone be 'conscious' in that which you believe to be 'symbolic'? Ruben kept telling me not to mix the literal with the symbolic, which I agree you can't. But it seems you have!

If someone is conscious in the 'Lake of Fire', then he will also see a '7 headed 10 horned' wild beast (Re.20:10). However, this is not the case- the 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic. Symbolic of eternal destruction for the 'wild beast' and the wicked.
---David8318 on 9/26/10


Micha9344- you are the one who tried to twist the Greek and deceive everyone in your use of 1 Corinthians 10:4, when in fact, the structure of 1 Cor.10:4 supports the reason why John 1:1 is accurately rendered, 'and the Word was a god'.

Thus your scriptures regarding 'false prophets' are most certainly pointing in your direction!

I am simply pointing out the fact that 'apollymi' means 'destroy', as every translator agrees. This contradicts what MarkV stated on 9/22/10: 'The word "destruction" is "Olethros" from "Ollumi" which means "to ruin," '

'Apollymi' (Ollumi) does not mean 'ruin', but means 'destroy'.
---David8318 on 9/26/10


He's got you running in circles, MarkV.
Typical JW maneuver, almost like bait and switch.
Matt 25:46 says nothing of destruction, only punishment.
'appollymi' is never used with 'eternal' or 'everlasting'.
The greek word got switched a few posts ago.
2The 1:9 'everlasting destruction' or 'ainios olethros' which is where you started, but not where he had you finishing.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
---micha9344 on 9/25/10


David, my answers were from what is given on the words from my lexicon books concerning the rendering of words. And the word, "Everlasting" has to imply that it is forever, and annihiliation is not something that goes on forever. You can also remove "everlasting" from Matt. if you want but it will not do you any good either if you are heading that way. You see, you do not have to believe in hell if you don't want. You can excuse yourself from it with words, but you cannot excuse yourself from going there if you reject the Gospel of Christ. He said hell, and you say no hell, now I wonder who I will believe? Not you of course.
---MarkV. on 9/25/10


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MarkV- I disagree with your rendering and understanding of 'apollymi' ('Ollumi', as you say). You state 'apollymi' means "to ruin", which is not a correct definition. 'Apollymi' means 'to destroy'.

Every translator will render 'apollymi' as 'destroy' and not simply 'ruin', as can be seen at James 4:12- 'One there is that is lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy.' (Also, Mark 1:24)

'Apol'lyon' is the Greek name used by the apostle John to translate the Hebrew 'Abaddon' at Revelation 9:11. Apollyon means 'Destroyer.' Vulgate adds at Re.19:11: 'and in Latin he has the name Exterminator'.

'Destruction' is the appropriate word to use and all translators do.
---David8318 on 9/25/10


running Headlong into trouble:

Acting, happening, or done in an impetuous way with little or no thought for the consequences.

moving or traveling in a fast uncontrolled manner with the head in front of the rest of the body, especially in a rapid uncontrolled movement
---kathr4453 on 9/22/10


David 2:
After reading Scripture and the biblical teachings that come from the lips of Christ I have come to the conclusion the words use about hell, "a place of outer Darkness" "a lake of fire" "a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth" " a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God" "a place of torment where the worm doesn't turn or die" are all graphic images of eternal punishment literally or merely symbols. I suspect they are symbols. If the images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude the reality is worse than the symbol suggest. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.
---MarkV. on 9/22/10


David8318, when I said I didn't mention people going to hell fire, I was refering to the passages in 2 Thess 1:7-9 only. I do believe people will be conscious during their time in hell. And I distinguished the difference by going to my Grk Lexicon books on words. The word "destruction" is "Olethros" from "Ollumi" which means "to ruin," found in the word destruction in (1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:3, 2 Thess. 1:9, 1 Tim. 6:9). The fundamental thought is not by any means annihilation, but corruption, an injurious force. from the word "apollumi" And the added word, "everlasting" proofs it is not something that is annihilated since the duration is everlasting.
---MarkV. on 9/22/10


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MarkV- Neither did I! I also never said anything about people being sent to a hell with fire- 2 Thess.1:7-9 does not teach people are sent to hell-fire. So why did you say on 9/15/10 that I was 'wrong in my interpretation' of 2 Thess.1:7-9? How does my understanding differ from yours? In fact I agree with your reasoning-

'"Flaming fire" is a symbol of Judgment', 'They shall be punished with "everlasting distruction" Matt. 25:46.'

I agree! However, when you say 'distruction means ruin and does not involve annihilation', do you thus believe some will be conscious during this 'everlasting destruction'? How do you distinguish the difference between 'destruction' and 'annihilation'?
---David8318 on 9/20/10


David, I never mentioned people were going to hell with fire. I did say that the Lord on Judgment Day will come with vengeance on those who do not obey the gospel and those who do not know God. "Flaming fire" is a symbol of Judgment (Ex. 3:2, 19:16-20, Deut. 5:4, Ps. 104:4, Isa. 66:15,16, Matt. 3:11,12). They shall be punished with "everlasting distruction" Matt. 25:46 says,
"And these will go away into "everlasting punishment" but the righeous into eternal life"
Paul in 2 Thess. 1:7-10, discribes the duration and extent of that punishment, First, it is for forever, thus it is not a reversible experience. Second, distruction means ruin and does not involve annihilation.
---MarkV. on 9/20/10


An action that does not barewitness of God-is the opposite of Christ within you.
The Word of God baring witness of Him acting within you---His Spirit moving (Holy Spririt)
Phil 2(all)

An opposite and other action that does not result from the Holy Spirit within you is
Actions of Your Flesh-sinful nature.

God is a consuming fire:
Deut 4:24,9:3, Heb 12:29

The word you confess will be judged.
If it is His Word---in truth it stands.

The Word of God is Eternal.
---char on 9/19/10


Become a Christian filled with Christ's Holy Spirit, then your actions will be Christ's actions and not sin's actions.
---Eloy on 9/19/10


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Ruben- Regarding Is.66:24 and Mk.9:48, Isaiah shows the 2 ways corpses were usually destroyed: putrefaction and incineration. The juxtaposition in the text of maggots and fire reinforces the idea of destruction. Both destructive forces are described as permanent ('is not quenched, does not die'): there is simply no way to escape them.

The only survivors are the maggot and the fire - not man - and they both annihilate anything that falls within their power. Hence, this is not a description of everlasting torment, but one of total destruction which, as it prevents resurrection from occurring, is tantamount to final death. 'Fire' is then a symbol of annihilation, eternal destruction.
---David8318 on 9/19/10


Jesus does allude to Isaiah 66:24 in describing Gehenna as a place 'where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.' (Mr 9:47,48) That the symbolic picture here is not one of torture but, rather, of 'eternal destruction' is evident from the fact that the Isaiah text dealt, not with persons who were alive, but with 'the carcasses of the men that were transgressing' against God.

The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was a place for the destruction of garbage and carcasses. Where the fire did not reach, worms, or maggots, would breed, consuming anything not destroyed by the fire. On this basis, Jesus' words would mean that the destructive effect of God's adverse judgment would not cease until complete destruction was attained.
---David8318 on 9/19/10


MarkV- So are you also trying to say that 2 Thess.1:7-9 teaches people are sent into a burning 'hell-fire'? This passage doesn't teach 'hell-fire' does it. That's the point I was making. It's not people who are in a 'flaming fire', it's Jesus, who comes in a 'flaming fire'. This fire is of course symbolic- Jesus isn't literally on fire. I thus agree with you that the fire here represents judgment. As I've said before, the 'fire' here and in other scriptures is symbolic of the judgment resulting in 'eternal destruction'.

Ruben on the other hand believes the fire is literal. Ruben tried to use 2 Thess.1:7-9 to try to show people burn in fire. But he doesn't understand the scripture shows that it's Jesus who comes in a 'flaming fire'.
---David8318 on 9/19/10


David8318 * Ruben- 'hell' is a word used to describe something that cannot be seen, touched or anything else.

Passage Revelation 14:11:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and , they have no rest day nor night,.. whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Sounds like something they will feel forever.

David8318 * Unless of course you know where 'hell-fire' exists, literally?

If you say Heaven is above then Hell is below!

David8318* The idea of 'hell-fire' exists only in the minds of 'Babylonians' masquerading as christians.

Isaiah 66:24 mention a fire be quenched and Jesus himself quotes that verse in Mark 9:47-48.
---Ruben on 9/15/10


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David, your wrong in your interpretation of 2 Thess. 1:6-9. You did not read the whole context. "Since it is a righeous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengence on those who do not know God," So far He tells the believers that are been troubled not to worry because when He comes He will give them rest. And when He comes He comes in flaming fire, (In Scripture fire is a symbol of judgment) Ex. 3:2, 19:16-20, Deut. 5:4, Psa. 104:4, Isa. 66:15,16, Rev. 19:12). Paul explained the duration and extend of the punishment when he said, "everlasting"
---MarkV. on 9/15/10


Ruben- Don't you think you're being a little bit economical with the truth in your use of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9? Verse 7 doesn't say people will be 'in a flaming fire'- It's JESUS who comes 'in a flaming fire! ...who takes vengeance etc...'

These verses do not teach bad people or anyone is sent to a burning hell. You are twisting what is being taught here. The word 'hell' is not used. Rather, 'fire' is used with reference to JESUS' coming, not with 'eternal damnation'. In fact, the verse you cite states Jesus' coming vengeance is with regard to 'everlasting destruction', which is what I have always said 'fire' represents. It appears your analytical skills remain below par. Is this how your 'church' has taught you to reason? It's shocking!
---David8318 on 9/12/10


Ruben- 'Bible' is a word used to describe something which can be seen, touched, read, and used, On the other hand, 'hell' is a word used to describe something that cannot be seen, touched or anything else. You again fall into the trap you keep telling me to avoid! You can't mix reality with symbolisms. You can't compare something tangible (ie. a book) with something which is not (ie. hell).

Unless of course you know where 'hell-fire' exists, literally? Can you point out where this 'hell' of yours physically exists? I doubt if you can- in fact, I know you can't! The idea of 'hell-fire' exists only in the minds of 'Babylonians' masquerading as christians.
---David8318 on 9/12/10


David8318 * you are unable to show me where Paul taught hell-fire or where he mentioned the word hell.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power," ( 2 Thess 1:7-9)

Paul never mention the word 'Bible' or that there will be a collections of letters complile in a book!


David8318 * Jesus never used the word hell either. The word hell is used by some translators in place of the word Jesus actually spoke- 'Gehenna'.

Gehenna was a place that burn day-night, a hell(no punn) off a place to use for symbolic!
---Ruben on 9/8/10


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Ruben- As I've told you before, forget my interpretation of the Bible. Fact is, you are unable to show me where Paul taught hell-fire or where he mentioned the word hell. Thus, hell is a 'sacred tradition' of yours and your church and not that of Paul.

Jesus never used the word hell either. The word hell is used by some translators in place of the word Jesus actually spoke- 'Gehenna'. And Jesus' use of 'fire' is symbolic of eternal destruction with no hope of return, unless you want to believe literal fire can burn spirit creatures. (Dan.3:25, Mt25:41)

The Bible does contain sacred traditions, but not your sacred traditions- ie. hell, trinity & immortal soul. These 3 false traditions hallmark 'Babylon the Great'- Rev.17:5,6.
---David8318 on 9/7/10


David8318* What that means Ruben, is you believe your 'sacred traditions' (ie. hell) over what is recorded in 'sacred scripture'.

No David I do not believe in your interpretation of scripture!

David8318* As already shown, neither Jesus nor Paul taught your 'hell-fire' tradition and belief. But your church (evidently part of 'Babylon the Great') does.

You have shown that your interpretaion of scripture 'overides' those Early Church Fathers who were disciples of the Apostles.

David8318 *So you ignore Jesus' and Paul's teachings in favour of your 'church' which you believe to be teaching truth.


No,I Ignore yours and your Church interpretation of scripture.
---Ruben on 9/7/10


Ruben- Your 'sacred traditions' and the Bible are two very different things.

Your statement about me- 'David believes in Scared Tradition, (the Bible!) but all of the sudden when it goes against his beliefs it not true!' I dispute your 'sacred traditions' but not the Bible.

The Bible is a Sacred Tradition....
---Ruben on 9/7/10


No Ruben, what I said was- 'In Rubens mind his "Sacred Traditions" override 'Sacred Scripture'. There's no 'and' in this statement of mine anywhere is there? I can't see one. You've even re-printed my statement in your post! No wonder you believe Babylonian teachings if your analytical skills are this poor!

What that means Ruben, is you believe your 'sacred traditions' (ie. hell) over what is recorded in 'sacred scripture'. As already shown, neither Jesus nor Paul taught your 'hell-fire' tradition and belief. But your church (evidently part of 'Babylon the Great') does. So you ignore Jesus' and Paul's teachings in favour of your 'church' which you believe to be teaching truth.
---David8318 on 9/5/10


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Ruben- Your 'sacred traditions' and the Bible are two very different things.

Your statement about me- 'David believes in Scared Tradition, (the Bible!) but all of the sudden when it goes against his beliefs it not true!' I dispute your 'sacred traditions' but not the Bible.

I believe the Bible is sacred scripture. Contained in the Bible are Paul's letters recording teachings such as the resurrection and God's Kingdom etc..., and sacred traditions such as the operation of the Christian congregation. None of the sacred traditions of Paul (nor Christ's teachings) include hell, trinity or immortality of the soul. These are teachings of modern day Babylon, or false religion collectively known as 'Babylon the Great' (Re.18:2,4).
---David8318 on 9/5/10


David8318 * Ruben reveals what is more important to him in his statement, 'Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture,

David believes in Scared Tradition, (the Bible!) but all of the sudden when it goes against his beliefs it not true!

David8318 * In Rubens mind his "Sacred Traditions" override 'Sacred Scripture'.

How does Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture overide.

David8318 *Sacred Traditions' of his 'church'.

David can't say that because it's his interpretation over any Church.

David8318 * Neither Jesus nor Paul taught the false Babylonian doctrine of 'Hell-fire'.

And here he just prove that his interpretation of scripture is the correct one, yet again!
---Ruben on 9/3/10


Ruben, you ask if the 'seven mountains' and the 'seven kings' are symbolic (Re.17:9,10). What do you think Ruben? I'm not so sure now whether you are able to distinguish between reality and symbolisms.

You also say, 'As already mention, if the complete destruction is symbolic then to must be the eternal life.'

I disagree with you. The DESCRIPTION of complete destruction is symbolic. As you've mentioned before- you cannot mix the literal with the symbolic. The reality of eternal life can't be compared to the symbolic description of complete destruction.

Your reasoning still means you and your 'church' believe there will be a human literally with '7 heads and 10 horns'.
---David8318 on 9/3/10


Ruben, I believe you do not understand what 'symbolic' means. I think you need to look up the definition of 'symbolic'.

You appear not to be able to distinguish between reality and what is symbolic because you believe Jesus Christ was literally a Lamb! Please, get out a dictionary and look up what 'symbolic' means.

If you want to believe Jesus Christ was literally a Lamb and the 'wild beast' with '7 heads and 10 horns' will literally be a human (because he's got to burn in your literal 'Lake of Fire') then you go ahead and believe it that way. You don't have to believe the way I do.

I don't believe Jesus was a literal Lamb or that there'll be a human walking around with '7 heads and 10 horns' either.
---David8318 on 9/3/10


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David8318 *I don't believe the 'wild beast' is literal. I don't believe there will be a 'real' person with '7 heads and 10 horns'

David is hanging his hat on the 7 heads and 10 horns. David clearly knows what they represents. Are the Seven Mountains and the 10 kings also symbolic?

David8318 * what the 'wild beast' sybolises is not the point.

Of course is not the point to you, because what it sybolises is real. Like the 'the Lamb Slain' is symbolic but it sybolises is Jesus Christ himself.

David8318* Thus, the 'Lake of Fire' must also be symbolic- symbolic of complete destruction with no hope of return.rn.

As already mention, if the complete destruction is symbolic then to must be the eternal life.
---Ruben on 9/3/10


Ruben- As I've said before, because your 'church' tells you to believe that Jesus' use of 'fire' at Mt.25:41, Re.19:20 is literal, you are forced to believe that the 'wild beast' with '7 heads and 10 horns' is also literal. You are also forced to believe literal fire can burn spirit creatures.

It's very revealing your statement, 'If the Church teaches that Jesus spoke literally about Hell/Fire...'- So regardless of what the Bible teaches, if your 'church' teaches hell-fire, you believe it.

This is common among those trapped in 'Babylon the Great'. Babylons teaching must come first, irrespective of what the Bible actually says. 'Babylon the Great' teaches hell-fire, trinity and immortality of the human soul. Her adherents obey!
---David8318 on 9/3/10


Ruben reveals what is more important to him in his statement, 'Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, If the Church teaches that Jesus spoke literally about Hell/Fire, then it supports the truth!'

Oh dear! Notice Ruben says, 'Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture'. In Rubens mind his "Sacred Traditions" override 'Sacred Scripture'. Not only that, but it's 'Sacred Traditions' of his 'church'. A 'church' which he holds so dear, he believes 'hell-fire' is true simply because his 'church' says it's true.

Neither Jesus nor Paul taught the false Babylonian doctrine of 'Hell-fire'. Hell is not a 'sacred tradition' of Paul's teaching but of apostate Christendom, a prominent part of 'Babylon the Great' (2 Thess.2:3, Re.18:2)
---David8318 on 9/3/10


Learn to discern between that what is right and that what is wrong: for good actions are in oppostion to bad actions, and bad actions are in oppostion to good actions.
---Eloy on 9/3/10


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Ruben- You've got it all wrong. I said the symbolic 'wild beast' will be thrown into the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'. Whatever understanding you have of the 'wild beast', it is symbolic and as you've said before, you can't mix the symbolic with the literal.

I don't believe the 'wild beast' is literal. I don't believe there will be a 'real' person with '7 heads and 10 horns' thrown into the 'Lake of Fire'. But in this discussion, what the 'wild beast' sybolises is not the point. The point is the 'wild beast' is symbolic.

Thus, the 'Lake of Fire' must also be symbolic- symbolic of complete destruction with no hope of return. And like the symbolic 'eternal fire' of Sodom, the symbolic 'wild beast' will not return.
---David8318 on 9/2/10


David8318* Ruben- I do not believe the 'traditions' Paul spoke about include the false doctrine of hell-fire or any other Babylonian doctrine. Paul doesn't even come close to saying 'hell'. Hell-fire is not a 'tradition' or belief recorded by Paul.

He didn't have to, Jesus mentions Hell/Fire many times.

David8318* The traditions Paul spoke of however are recorded in his letters.

And by word of mouth...

David8318 * The 'church' is not the truth, but a 'foundation (support) OF THE truth.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, If the Church teaches that Jesus spoke literally about Hell/Fire, then it supports the truth!
---Ruben on 9/2/10


Revelation uses the 'wild beast' and the 'Lamb' as symbolic word pictures of real people or organisations.

The symbolic 'wild beast with 7 heads and 10 horns' (who or what ever that is) will be destroyed forever (like Sodom) in the symbolic 'Lake of Fire' with no hope of return. (Re.19:20)
---David8318 on 9/2/


David,

As you said real people going into real fire. Sodom was real fire not symbolic...
---Ruben on 9/2/10


Ruben- I do not believe the 'traditions' Paul spoke about include the false doctrine of hell-fire or any other Babylonian doctrine. Paul doesn't even come close to saying 'hell'. Hell-fire is not a 'tradition' or belief recorded by Paul. The traditions Paul spoke of however are recorded in his letters.

I also disagree with your understanding of 1 Tim.3:15. Paul discussed 'God's household ...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.' (NIV) The 'truth' as Jesus said is 'God's word', (Jo.17:17) of which the church is a 'pillar' and 'foundation'. The church supports the 'truth of God's word'.

The 'church' is not the truth, but a 'foundation (support) OF THE truth.'
---David8318 on 9/2/10


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Ruben- Your line of reasoning is suspect. In response to my use of John 17:17 ('your word is truth') you state, 'Yes it is but not all his words were written down.' Well that's not the point I'm making. Does that mean you believe what is written down is not true? What are you trying to say? Don't you believe what Jesus said about God's word being true is true? Or are you saying Jesus is leading us astray?

If everything God and Jesus said could and was written down, it would still be truth, wouldn't it? Regardless of how much is written for us, what has been recorded as Jesus said is "truth" (Jo.17:17).

I understand now why you have difficulty understanding how the Bible interprets itself.
---David8318 on 9/2/10


Ruben- Why should we conclude Jesus is not a real person just because Revelation refers to him symbolically as a 'Lamb'? Please explain further?

It may be that you believe the 'wild beast with 7 heads and 10 horns' is or will be a human. But the point is he won't literally be a 'wild beast with 7 heads and 10 horns' will he! No more than the Christ literally was/is a 'Lamb'. Revelation uses the 'wild beast' and the 'Lamb' as symbolic word pictures of real people or organisations.

The symbolic 'wild beast with 7 heads and 10 horns' (who or what ever that is) will be destroyed forever (like Sodom) in the symbolic 'Lake of Fire' with no hope of return. (Re.19:20)
---David8318 on 9/2/10


David8318* Paul: 'All Scripture is inspired of God ...for setting things straight.' 2 Tim.3:16.

Paul said all not 'Only' and the same Paul said ""Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

"which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."(1 Tim 3:15)

Notice Paul said the Church and not the Bible as the pillar and ground of truth!

David* Just because others disagree among themselves doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. 'Let God be found true, though every man a Liar.' (Ro.3:4)

Who determines which interpretation of scripture is correct yours or mine?
---Ruben on 9/1/10


David8318* Ruben- I am surprised you do not believe the Bible to be the final authority on scriptural matters. If you do not believe the Bible to be the final authority, then how can you be sure that your belief(s) are God ordained?

Sacred Tradition, how do you know that the books of the bible are from God? Where does Jesus tell the apostles to write everything down? Besides Jesus did many other things not written in the Scriptures.(JHN 21:25)

It's Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the Bible teaches:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.( 2 Thess 2:15)
---Ruben on 9/1/10


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David8318* 1 John 4:1 says, 'test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.'

First John tell them how to test:

"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us, he that is not of God heareth , not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

David8318* Jesus: 'your word is truth.' John 17:17.

Yes it is but not all his words were written down:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen"(JHn 21:25)
---Ruben on 9/1/10


Ruben- I am surprised you do not believe the Bible to be the final authority on scriptural matters. If you do not believe the Bible to be the final authority, then how can you be sure that your belief(s) are God ordained?

1 John 4:1 says, 'test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.'

Jesus: 'your word is truth.' John 17:17.

Paul: 'All Scripture is inspired of God ...for setting things straight.' 2 Tim.3:16.

Don't you believe the Bible is inspired of God and can 'set things straight'? Just because others disagree among themselves doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. 'Let God be found true, though every man a Liar.' (Ro.3:4) The determining factor is not my interpretation. It's the Bible's.
---David8318 on 9/1/10


How can we know if our actions are sinful?

ANSWER: BY THE LAW

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by THE LAW is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the LAW: for I had not known lust, except the LAW HAD SAID, Thou shalt not covet.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also THE LAW: for sin is the transgression of THE LAW.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of THE LAW.
---francis on 8/27/10


What a wonderful tool we Christians have. The conviction of the person of the holy ghost.
---catherine on 8/25/10


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Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for BY THE LAW [is] the knowledge of sin.
---francis on 6/21/10


are prosperity preachers or preachers convicted of sin when they have multi-million $$ homes, luxury cars & salaries?

is that self-denial?
is that practicing what they preach?

in this case, sin is justified, the bible perverted & exploited.

if they justify sin, then they won't know their actions are sinful.
---mike on 6/21/10


I thought of something else that is really cool.

If you can't do it in front of Jesus and God, then it's sinful, amen?

I thought that was neat.
---Donna5535 on 6/21/10


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
If you don't feed the hungry, you have not broken the 10 stone commandments, but have broken God's true commandments as revealed by Jesus.
Mat 25:31-46 We won't be judged by the ten stone commandments.
---micha9344 on 6/20/10


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"How can we know if our actions are sinful?"
Simple. Any action that violate the commandments of God, written in stone, and rewritten upon the "tables of the heart", are sinful.
---Josef on 6/20/10


When our words or actions contradict the teachings of Jesus. When we feel a "check" within our "Spirit" that makes us uncomfortable over something we know we should not have said or done. When our actions or words are hurtful or harmful to someone else or dishonor Jesus. But God is merciful and quick to forgive when we are truly sorry and repent.
---Vel on 6/19/10


Anything not of faith.
---Linda on 6/18/10


I believe that I included this question on another blog. Thank You Jesus...Creator. There are too Scriptures. Ahh.
---catherine on 6/18/10


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By studying what the Word of God says to do and not to do.

Deuteronomy Chapter 28 gives us the blessings and curses. I know some will say this is Old Testament, but God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Study what Jesus said to do and if you don't do it, it's sin. The Holy Spirit does convict us of sin, but there are people who don't pay attention to that conviction and I know some who are going by what they think is right and they are in danger.
God says I desire obedience rather than sacrifice. Jesus said, if you love me, you'll obey me. Pure and simple truths here.
---Donna5535 on 6/18/10


The Bible lists (new testament) a number of things that are not what God desires of us, and we can read and learn

Christ also told us that the whole law is summed up in two statemtns, about loving God and our neighbour, so, if we are not sure from other scripture, we can consider - is this loving God and my neighbour
---peter3594 on 6/18/10


Given that this is a religious blog, any secular definition would be rejected. Therefore, the proper answer here would be what is found in 'scripture'.

This is of course problematic since accepted 'scripture' varies religion to religion and what pieces were candidates for inclusion in a scriptural canon varied by religion.

Scriptural content varies, but of course past interpretations and translations also vary, and what an individual's interpretation of his chosen scripture varies, along with a propensity for cherry picking.

So the short, simple, and correct answer is that a sinful action is as always anything Jerry wants it to be. And if someone does not agree with you, then they just wrongly read the wrong scripture.
---atheist on 6/18/10


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