Placed Under 10 Commandments
ROMAN 2:12 FOR as many as have sinned without law shall also persish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.
( Your under the law no matter what,whether you know the law,or not or if you put a sign on your lawn or not.)
---RICHARD on 8/10/10|
First century Christians were willing to pledge alegience to Ceasar they were not willing to worship him as a god.
Many Roman soldiers were pledged to Cesar and JESUS until one Dioclitian decided to reestablish Paganism and require worship of himself and the camp gods. This upset Constatine who saw a waste of good soldiers being killed for no reason.
The JW's church is one of the few churches I know who carry idols to an extreme even though they teach the ten commandments were done away with as many other modern churches now do.
By the way the U.S. Flag flies in my front yard.
---Samuel on 7/2/10|
Since the subject of the National Anthem has come up, may I make a request?
There are some songs that should simply be sung straight and not like a gospel or jazz number.
Patriotic songs, including the National Anthem, are among them.
Please don't slip, slide, and scoop between the notes.
---Cluny on 7/2/10|
I think there are some differences that are due mostly to custom rather than belief. I was taught to stand for the national anthem. Everybody did...at every baseball game and every civic celebration. Nobody objected...nobody thought to.
That was before the 60's...when the flag was burned in protest. I still think of standing for the flag as a normal act of respect. I have to remind myself that perhaps it is not so "normal" anymore.
---Donna66 on 6/28/10|
In the United States, we are granted freedom of belief (religious, ideological, political) and freedom to express such beliefs.
If I'm Democrat and you're Republican, or vice versa, or if I'm Christian and you're Jewish, or vice versa, that's all right.
But when we have an attitude "if someone doesn't stand for the anthem or salute the flag, he's unpatriotic, or a bad person" (or in more hysterical days, a traitor), such attitude effectively coerce others into belief, and turns these freedoms on their head.
In Rome, people who didn't acknowledge Caesar as Lord were considered unpatriotic (to the extreme - eventually, they were thrown to the lions).
The main difference here is the degree of disapproval.
---StrongAxe on 6/28/10|
Cluny if you're trying to be the Devils advocate,you're doing a pretty good job. Rome didn't try to convince anyone of anything,decrees were made and enforced,never caring what it meant to Christians forced to worship anything but Jesus. Donna66,so do I,my two Uncles and some Great Uncles fought in World War Two,I saw first hand what it did to families to have loved ones over there in the war. Americans pulled together and to be patriotic was the norm and not the exception. Now it is more fashionable to promote discord,hate,and anger which is a shame especially when used to try to convince it is wrong to honor the Flag,the Nation and our warriors who fought so hard for,freedom. Idolatry is whats bowed down to,patriotism is what you rise up to.
---Darlene_1 on 6/28/10|
\\no bowing down to the flag as the Bible forbids Christians to do to idols. It is citizens afirming their loyaltity to the USA\\
And I'm sure the Roman officials tried to convince Christians that burning the incense saying, "Kyrios Kaisar" was not worship, either.
---Cluny on 6/28/10|
I feel strongly about this.
I was a child during WWII, when Americans felt much different than now.
Then people had a strong EMOTIONAL attachment to the flag...because, under it, our "boys" were fighting to preserve liberty and defeat tyranny ( e.g. Hitler's regime).
Every civilian felt a DUTY to help. Meat and sugar were rationed. No nylons or new cars could be bought. Children were taught to identify aircraft from the ground and were put to work selling "war bonds".
At a "patriotic" church service I attended last 7/4, I was the only one in the congregation that stood for the national anthem. I suppose I am wrong ,but I never want to visit that church again.
---Donna66 on 6/28/10|
Donna66 you are welcome,and thank you for understanding what I said. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,and to the Republic for which it stands,one nation under God,indivisible,with liberty and justice for all." There is nothing whorshipful and certainly nothing about that which could make the flag an idol and more inportant,no bowing down to the flag as the Bible forbids Christians to do to idols. It is citizens afirming their loyaltity to the USA and for me and some others it is remembering those who fought and died that we have the freedom to express ourselves without fear. The right to believe the Bible.
---Darlene_1 on 6/28/10|
No, it could merely be an architectural decoration, much like nonbelievers wear crosses as decorative jewelry without attaching the real meaning to the symbol.
---Eloy on 6/28/10|
All such symbols depend on how we use them. If you wear a cross around your neck to remind you of Christ's sacrifice, or to let others you are a Christian, it is a symbol. If you wear it to protect you from evil, (much like vampire hunters in colloquial folklore), it is a magic charm, and an idol.
If you look at a statue to remind you of some good person who went before, it's a symbol. If you pray to it for healing, or leave offerings next to it, it's an idol.
If you look at a flag as a symbol of freedom and democracy, it's a symbol. But if you afford that piece of cloth a sanctity above even that of your most holy symbols and writings, it's an idol.
---StrongAxe on 6/27/10|
Its doesn't matter if you "placed yourself" under the commandments, it matters if you are obedient under God.
No sign can write the commandments ON YOUR HEART and the fleshly adherence to the 10 Commandments is unprofitable and neither obedient or holy.
---larry on 6/27/10|
Cluny-- I don't. And I haven't. I don't agree with it theologically. But I have good friends who are Roman Catholic. I would not think of accusing them of idolatry.
---Donna66 on 6/27/10|
\\but for the sake of those who value these things...please don't disrespect it.
---Donna on 6/27/10\\
And if you don't appreciate the Virgin Mary's role in the incarnation, at least don't disrespect those who do by accusing them of idolatry.
Works both ways, Donna.
---Cluny on 6/27/10|
Pledging allegience is not the same as "worshipping". There is nothing divine about a nation. The flag is not a "likeness" of the country, merely a symbol.
The cross is a symbol of Christ's redeeming sacrifice. If we place it in or on our churches, or wear it on our person, it only serves as a reminder to us of what it means. We do not venerate the cross or pray to it.
If you don't appreciate what the cross stands for, ignore it...but for the sake of those who value it, don't disrespect it.
If you don't appreciate the liberty, self-determination and democracy for which Americans have shed blood, ignore the flag...but for the sake of those who value these things...please don't disrespect it.
---Donna on 6/27/10|
\\When Americans Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the USA they aren't worshiping or honoring the flag or a piece of cloth\\
If you excuse what I and first century Christians called idolatry, then you have to excuse what you think is idolatry by Roman Catholics and others.
Otherwise you are guilty of the sin of a double standard, or what the Bible calls "diverse weights and measures" in Proverbs 20:10, and considers an ABOMINATION/TOEVAH.
---Cluny on 6/26/10|
If you pass a home where the 10 Commandments are posted on a sign in the yard, are the homeowners (or occupants) voluntarily placing themselves under the 10 Commandments?
A question like this can only make you wonder: What exactly does the writer mean by being under the 10 commandments?
Do they mean obey the ten commandments?
Do they mean keep the ten commandments?
Are they somehow suggesting that a believer in Christ is free from obedience to the ten commandments?
---francis on 6/26/10|
Thank You Darlene!
---Donna66 on 6/26/10|
That may be so, however, we don't say "I honor the brave and honorable dead", but rather "I pledge allegiance to the FLAG", and the law demands that the flag have special reverence above all other objects (for example, even desecrating it or burning it is a federal offense - something that doesn't apply to anything else other than money (another topic for possible worship?)).
If someone honors the dead but declines to salute the flag (because he thinks it's idolatry - something Jehovah's Witnesss do, for example), he's considered un-American.
There were many Christians in Rome who were loyal citizens, but refused to burn incense to Caesar and chose to pay for that with their lives.
---StrongAxe on 6/26/10|
When Americans Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the USA they aren't worshiping or honoring the flag or a piece of cloth but all those who fought and some who died to insure we would have the freedom to pledge allegiance to the flag and USA. To Pledge Allegiance is to say thank you to all who struggled and fought to make and keep our Nation free. It is our declaration of loyality to this Country and freedom. The difference between Caesar and the Flag,he was a man trying to take God's place,the Flag is to give honor not only to those who fought but it also gives Glory to God by admitting this Country was under God. We have no victory in anything without God's intervention.
---Darlene_1 on 6/26/10|
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**What is the fundamental difference between the two acts?
---StrongAxe on 6/25/10**
---Cluny on 6/25/10|
While veneration of the flag is a man-made law, veneration of Caesar was also a man-made law (as Cluny points out). First-century Roman Christians preferred to be ripped apart by lions than do the first. Yet American Christians willingly (and enthusiastically) do the second.What is the fundamental difference between the two acts?
---StrongAxe on 6/25/10|
\\Thanks for the contribution of all those who answered. \\
Yes, it is. To the Roman pagans, burning the pinch of incense and saying "Kyrios Kaisar" was merely a patriotic expression. But Christians saw it as worship of LATREIA, and that's why they wouldn't do it.
\\To pray to them would be worship, such as Mary and other idols. \\
Just because Protestants accept prayers to pieces of cloth does NOT stop these pieces of cloth from being idols.
Be consistent, Elder.
Either that--or you have to admit that the veneration given to Mary and other is NOT the same as the LATREIA given to God alone.
There's no third alternative.
---Cluny on 6/25/10|
Thanks for the contribution of all those who answered.
But, is pledging allegiance really worship. Do people getting married or that are married wrong if they pledge allegiance to each other? Is kissing your loved one worship?
To pray to them would be worship, such as Mary and other idols.
Burning the US flag is controlled by laws of man who made the laws. Enforcing that man made law could not be interpreted as worship either. Do we worship a stop sign by stopping at it because the law says to? Do we worship the bible by saying one version is better than another? We could have laws protecting the Bible from desecration if the people would demand it.
It appears that we don't understand what real worship is.
---Elder on 6/25/10|
In the United States, the First Amendment grants people the right to stomp on a Bible or burn a Talmud. But if you do either of these things to an American flag, you can go to jail. So if people treat (and are required to treat) their flags with more reverence than they do their own holy books, wouldn't that count as worship (and since it's in a physical object, idolatry?)
---StrongAxe on 6/25/10|
"....pledging allegiance to....flag [is]...worship?" (Elder)
Well Elder, the reasoning of many here is that having images/statues is equal to idolatry. This accusation is bought against Latin/Eastern Catholics. If this is true, then Americans are idolatry because: A) They pledge their allegiance to pieces of cloths (the American Flag) and B) They build statues and altars in memory of dead people (i.e., The Abraham Lincoln Memorial), and thousands venerate them. I have also witness venerational acts such as kissing/bowing (one such case happened in my Elementary School) towards the American Flag, etc.
Is this "worship" ("lateria", "worship" in the highest sense) to you?
---Ignatius on 6/25/10|
Elder, I think you may be proving the point of "showing respect for your country by pledging allegiance to it and its flag are wrong and a form of worship?" is what people do to Mary, and therefore that is not worship.
However, personally, I don't do "allegiance" to the flag or christian flag. My allegiance is to Christ. What does the US Flag stand for anymore? Consequently, I will render to "Caesar" the things that are Caesars, taxes and civil responsiblities, and to God my life, devotion, and allegiance.
---Rod4Him on 6/25/10|
I have experienced a baptist church that incorporated pseudo-military pomp into its worship. I never have seen anything involving a prayer cloth in these churches. Anyway, these are vile practices.
Whether how noble, every organization of man lets some degree of self bleed into whatever endeavor upon which he embarks. It's a vicious circle that has been repeating itself since the fall of man. There is no human in the flesh who hasn't looked in the mirror and said, "That is good" in some way.
That is why we all need a Messiah...Jesus..one who shed His Blood for all mankind and his ways. For all men fall short of the glory of the Lord. We did it then, we are doing it now, and we will continue until Christ returns.
---aka.joseph on 6/25/10|
Cluny stated, "They are worshiped with ritual actions executed in unison on command of the leader: "Attention! Salute! Pledge!"
Oddly enough, both prayers began with the same words, "I pledge allegiance
The even make sure the force children to defile themselves thereby in Vacation Bible School."
Are you saying showing respect for your country by pledging allegiance to it and its flag are wrong and a form of worship?
Have you ever raised your hand and swore to tell the truth? Have you told your wife that you love her? According to your statements it would be the same as worship.
Are you one that would like to stop our children from going to VBS and/or pledging allegiance to our country?
Tell me plainly.
---Elder on 6/24/10|
**I do not know where you live, but I have come out of baptist churches in TN, and I have never heard anything like that.
I have mainly been in independent baptist churches and a few baptist churches that are apart of the SBC.**
These vile rites that I described happen (idolatrous worship and prayers to pieces of cloth) happen in Southern Baptist Churches all the time.
The even make sure the force children to defile themselves thereby in Vacation Bible School.
---Cluny on 6/24/10|
Ignatius, I think this practice (witchcraft) came from this:
Act 19:11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
Act 19:12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
But, Acts 19:13-16 shows us what can happen if we use Jesus' name and power for our own purpose (which is a great segue to my next point...)
Catherine, what makes you think that what we originally see (the question posed) is what the Spirit want us to discuss? Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
---aka.joseph on 6/24/10|
Rob and Cluny,
I do not know where you live, but I have come out of baptist churches in TN, and I have never heard anything like that.
I have mainly been in independent baptist churches and a few baptist churches that are apart of the SBC.
Were they primitive, missionary, free-will, ...?
---aka.nodurft on 6/23/10|
"I know of no practice like this in Baptist churches." (mima)
Such a practice can indeed be found in many Baptist churches. I have a few Baptist churches in my area which have a STRONG idolatry devotions to pieces of cloths (it is believed that these prayer cloths have healing powers, which was confer by the Holy Spirit through the "pastor").........
Kissing such cloths is not unheard either. In fact, one can find many examples in the TBN and The Word Network of preachers/pastors telling people to call in order to get these cloths (or even a soap) in order to get healed (you also need to do some rituals at home in order for it to work)......
---Ignatius on 6/23/10|
Ha, Ha, we are getting off the subject again: Rob,if God calls you to preach, you can preach, ordained or not by other men.
---catherine on 6/23/10|
\\Cluny how interesting,what kind of idols and what kind of Baptist Church,please share?...\\
Yes, they do, Darlene! I participated in these idolatrous pagan rites as a Baptist until I got saved.
They were brought up with great solemnity and placed for adoration at the front of the church (where many congregations leave them). They are worshiped with ritual actions executed in unison on command of the leader: "Attention! Salute! Pledge!"
Oddly enough, both prayers began with the same words, "I pledge allegiance...."
If Catholics worship statues, then Baptists worship pieces of cloth.
You can't condemn one and approve the other. God is NOT fooled by externals.
---Cluny on 6/23/10|
Mima, I am not Baptist, but I have visited Baptist Churches many, many times. I know for a fact they refer to their Pastors as "MEN OF THE CLOTH", or "MEN OF THE COLLAR".
Many times I have found myself wondering if it is their Pastors and not GOD who they ELEVATE and WORSHIP. I know for a fact from personal experience and being told that if a person is not an "ORDAINED REVEREND" they cannot set foot in the pulpit.
---Rob on 6/23/10|
---Ignatius I am acquainted with and recognize the truth of what you have said about pentecostal churches, however I know of no practice like this in Baptist churches.
---mima on 6/23/10|
The item in question I believe It is called a "prayer cloth" and it is a strong devotion (much like the Rosary for Catholics) within many Baptist, Pentecostals and Charismatic sects. I grew up in a Pentecostal Church and we was instructed every Sunday to hold our prayer cloths (which the pastor had pray over it in order for the Holy Spirit to convene some type of healing power to it) in our right hand when we will "dance in the Spirit" (was more like bunny hoping) or be "slain in the Spirit" (very demonic).
We had a STRONG devotion to these cloths. BTW, we also pledge our allegiance to another piece of cloth...it is called the American Flag.....sound like Idol Worship......
---Ignatius on 6/23/10|
Cluny how interesting,what kind of idols and what kind of Baptist Church,please share? I know the Southern Baptist and the Independent Baptist Churches in Texas don't have any cloth idols they pray to.
---Darlene_1 on 6/23/10|
I have never heard of cloth idols in baptist church.
Then again "baptist" is not a church, it is a congregation. So who is to say what happens in any given congregation.
I would still like to know more about this though
---francis on 6/23/10|
"When I was a Baptist we had cloth idols in our church that people said prayers to and worshipped with ritual gestures executed in unison on command."
---Cluny on 6/22/10
My, My,My, what a statement!!
Is there any other person that has heard of this in any Baptist church?
---mima on 6/23/10|
\\"One of my Catholic friends has this big gigantic statue of...."\\
When I was a Baptist we had cloth idols in our church that people said prayers to and worshipped with ritual gestures executed in unison on command.
---Cluny on 6/22/10|
"One of my Catholic friends has this big gigantic statue of...."
FYI, having a statue (of anything) does not equal Idol worship. I have several little statues at my home of dogs, cats, etc. Am I Idolater? The problem here is most here, including you, have been indoctrinated into believing ANY image/statue is Idolatry, but per Scriptures, this is not so.
"I told her that I was going to come by her house in the middle of the night and steal that statue...."
Hum...Let's see Donna. You were planning on personally stealing a item from your friend, and then intentionally breaking it and throwing it into a river....now you tell me, is that someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit or Satan?
---Ignatius on 6/22/10|
\\If I have the ten commandments in my yard, it tells my neighbours that i will not Steal from them, Murder them, ...\\
More likely, it might say that you want CREDIT for not doing these things.
---Cluny on 6/22/10|
---Donna66 on 6/22/10 Not necessarily. A sign means nothing, unless we know why it was erected. Have you ever known anybody to post a "Beware of Dog" sign when they didn't even have a dog?
Absolutely right, most couldn't tell you what the sign says without reading the sign.
---michael_e on 6/22/10|
Not necessarily. A sign means nothing, unless we know why it was erected. Have you ever known anybody to post a "Beware of Dog" sign when they didn't even have a dog?
---Donna66 on 6/22/10|
The question is not dificult, it is flawed in it's presentation.
If I have the ten commandments in my yard, it tells my neighbours that i will not Steal from them, Murder them, commit adultery with thier spouse, tell lies about them, desire to have thier position as my own, and there there is any other, it will be comprehended by my neighbours that I infact do love them as I love myself.
It also lets them know that I love God, and will not have any other Gods but Jehovah, I will not worship idols, I will not use Gods name for my own benefits, and that come friday evening till saturday evening I am at rest, and have put aside the cares of the world.
Maybe my neighbours may stop by to learn about this God.
---francis on 6/22/10|
I do not get this placing yourself under part. When we place something like a flag etc in our yard we are showing recognition or allegience to something.
GOD gave Ten Commandments to define sin. Everyone has to deal with that as a fact.
Stealing a statue and throwing away is not a good witness to truth. Truth told in love or as JESUS would by getting people to think is the way we should work.
Sign in front of Baptist church "GOD gave Ten Commandments not suggestions"
---Samuel on 6/22/10|
I agree with Kat, must likely it is simply a visual reminder for whomever takes the time to read them.
---Josef on 6/22/10|
mima, frequently you seem to ask rhetorical questions--or else questions that you've already made up your mind what answer you want.
\\Of course you can't convince Catholics that that is idol worship\\
Because they don't. The problem is not being able to convince people like you that no idolatry is meant.
---Cluny on 6/21/10|
That is a tough question the way it is written. I will answer it a different way.
Any symbol people display, whether in the yard, on the car, or what they wear, is how to identify them. I may put different flags in my yard such as my country, my state, my crest, my religious belief. I would not put something in my yard I do not believe in or support. I am identifying myself with whatever I display on myself and the property I am blessed with.
The same holds true for posting content on web profiles, blogs, etc.
We are known by our actions. Like it or not, we are judged by the company we keep and the banner(s) we display. Our actions, company, and displays should all be in one accord so that our integrity guides others to Christ.
---micha9344 on 6/21/10|
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One of my Catholic friends has this big gigantic statue of Mary outside of her house in front of her dining room window.
Of course you can't convince Catholics that that is idol worship, that Mary isn't all knowing, nor is she all powerful nor is she sovereign.
So what does that make her mi ma? An idol worshipper? Because she thinks that statue brings her good luck.
I told her that I was going to come by her house in the middle of the night and steal that statue and throw it down the river, she thought that was blasphemous, I did NOT think that at all....do you?
---Donna5535 on 6/21/10|
I've never passed a home where the 10 Commandments are posted on a sign in the yard.
Maybe the owner just wants to remind everyone..thou shall not...
I love a bill board sing here. It says
"If you use MY NAME one more time, I'll make you sit another hour in traffic!!"
---kathr4453 on 6/21/10|
If they have a cross in their yard, are they voluntarily placing themselves under the Cross?
If they have a menorah in their window or a mezuzah on their door post, are they voluntarily placing themselves under these symbols?
If they have a flag on their property, are they voluntarily placing themselves under the jurisdiction represented by the flag?
Answer these, and you've answered your own question, mima.
---Cluny on 6/21/10|
Of course not.
---Gary on 6/21/10|
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