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Venerate Or Worship Mary

Some Protestants say the RCC worships Mary. RCs say they do not worship her, just venerate her. Is there a difference between veneration and worship?

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\\why would you call on or pray in anyone elses name other than Jesus?\\

I know nobody who does pray in anyone's name than Jesus.
---Cluny on 6/26/10


Mary was an important part of history,she gave birth to my God and Saviour.I hope someday to meet her.However in 1Tim. God's word says"For there is one God,and one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus, why would you call on or pray in anyone elses name other than Jesus?
---somme8743 on 6/26/10


God is God.
God Has given us His Word-that became flesh-son-Jesus Christ.Jn1:1-15,Jn14-15-16-17,Is9:6,Matt1,Lk4,Jn8:14-19,Jn10:30,Jn11:24-27
God is with us now to confirm and teach His Word-Holy Spirit.
Jn14:18-31,,Jn19:30,Jn20:17,
All In all-One God.
Love Him, worship him , believe in Him ,
Praise Him,pray to Him.
Just be obedient to Him-bow dow to Him and no other.
By His own Word the instruction is given how to pray.
To Him.
Matt 5
Our Father...
It would be a choice of submission for some.
---char on 6/25/10


"(Safeguard? Is our God not so great then?)" (John)

Yes, he is. However, in the 4th century, enemies of God called Arians/Nestorians (and a host of others) was denying the divinity of Jesus Christ and had a corrupt Christology, so God used the Church to refute heresies and teach the Apostolic Faith to His Elect........is this not the job of the Church, to protect the Truth?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/25/10


"If you are a spiritual babe then stay clear of these guys" (John II)

Of course they should John II. This is for those are Matured Christians. Do you give a Infant meat or first milk until he gradually be able to eat solid food?

Don't be man John II. I know you want us to follow you as Pope and believe your interpretation of Scriptures. You get extremely man when we refuse to agree with you, and you get even more man when we talk about things that you know nothing about because you think you got it all figure out, and need not learning.

Let us who want to dig deeper into Holy Scriptures and Church History alone. I pray that God will open your eyes to see the Apostolic Faith.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/25/10




||So then what is the Orthodox definition of legally lying?
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10||

If you're calling me a liar, then I'm everything you say I am and more besides. Please pray for me.
---Cluny on 6/25/10


Tell me, what teaching of Saint Cyril of Alexandria and Saint John Damascus contradict what is written in Holy Scriptures?

If you believe he is 100% false, then it is YOU who do NOT believe Scriptures!
******

then please DO SHARE exactly which Holy Scriptures these men sharing?

what makes you mad is you can't share any Holy Scriptures - there are none ...all you can do is stomp your feet and claim I do not believe Scriptures

how interesting seeing Holy Scripture does not IMPLY any of these men antichrist idea's

ANY IDEA that cannot be proved to the TRUTH in Holy Scripture is antichrist to The Word Christ Jesus

sadly what you FAIL to comprehend is these men were VAIN philosophers and NOT Apostles
---Rhonda on 6/25/10


Reuben:

If you don't like the "man-made, non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture", can you explain where we can find non-man-made, authoritative interpretations of Scripture?
---StrongAxe on 6/25/10


while with Ruben you'll constantly be picking up verses that keep falling out of his bible.

I'm for satellite books but make sure you have enough Word in you first. That's where the authority is.---John_II


What John is sayin is to believe in his fallible, man-made, non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture.
---Ruben on 6/25/10


** What the Lord Jesus calls her "woman" is who she is not "mother of God".**

In the original, it's DIMINUTIVE, and not the main form GYN. And even in English, diminutives are used to express affection.

Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, addresses the Virgin as "Mother of my Lord". And Who is Lord but God? Compare this with the confession of St. Thomas: "My Lord and my God!"

**In addition, also note that in addressing Haggar, God addressed her all that time as "handmaid of Sarah" never as "Abraham's wife or mother of Ishmael"**

And St. Paul in Galatians refers to Hagar as Abraham's wife.

Or are you saying that Galatians is not inspired by God?
---Cluny on 6/25/10




"Venerate"

The Only thing that matters is what is means to God.

He gives the command-we either following it or we don't.
Worship Him-alone.
No other.
---char on 6/25/10


///Look how joyfully John writes on Rev 11:19 about the Ark of the Covenant.A very Sacred image of a statue....
---Ruben on 6/25/10///

Huh?...Statue?

Where are the God given designs to built a statue of mary?

Only One God-One we bow down to.
---char on 6/25/10


How preposterous:

Cluny: Mother of God-or properly 'Theotokos'-is about who JESUS is.

Ignatius: [Theotokos] was given to ... Mary by the Church in the 4th century to safeguard the divinity of Jesus Christ.

(Safeguard? Is our God not so great then?)

Ruben: If he denied Mary his Mother than you broke one of his commandments 'Honor your Father and Mother'

If you are a spiritual babe then stay clear of these guys, the first two will have you out of the Word and into a labyrinth of 'ologies and 'isms in no time, while with Ruben you'll constantly be picking up verses that keep falling out of his bible.

I'm for satellite books but make sure you have enough Word in you first. That's where the authority is.
---John_II on 6/25/10


"Venerate" and "worship" do NOT mean the same thing to Orthodox.
---Cluny on 6/25/10

Elect does not mean the same thing to various doctrines either. SOOOOO, does that make it right. Every man is right in his own definition of words!!!! Is it like Bill Clinton LEGALLY LYING!!! So Legally LYING is different than LYING?

So legally lying is not:
Deceitful
Dishonest
False
Two Faced
Insincere
Untruthful
Double Dealing
Deceptive


So then what is the Orthodox definition of legally lying?
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


If your loved one died and went to heaven ( absent from the body present with the lord) and he can hear and even see you, what is wrong with asking him ot her to pray for you?
After all do we not ask our living friends and pastors to pray for us, why not one who is physically closer to the throne
---francis on 6/24/10

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

francis, there are not MANY mediators ONLY ONE. Jesus Christ. Are you calling God's word a LIE? If you say dead people can hear and pray for us, may I ask what false religion you belong to?
---Laura on 6/25/10


To Ignatius and Ruben: Please note that what God & Jesus Christ calls someone (or anything) that is most important. The human-beings who wrote the Bible are not at any level close to God. What the Lord Jesus calls her "woman" is who she is not "mother of God". In addition, also note that in addressing Haggar, God addressed her all that time as "handmaid of Sarah" never as "Abraham's wife or mother of Ishmael". May the good Lord increase us in understanding HIM.
---Adetunji on 6/25/10


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**Agreed-
//According to all dictionaries venerate and worship mean the same thing!! There is no difference between these words.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10//**

Words can have technical meanings in some contexts that they do not have in others.

Staff can mean one thing in business, another thing to shepherds, and still a third thing in music, for example.

"Venerate" and "worship" do NOT mean the same thing to Orthodox.
---Cluny on 6/25/10


If the Ark of the Covenant was upon the altar accompanied by adoring angels, surrounded by 100 candles and people worshiping it, and praying to it then yes I would believe this is their god.
---Warwick on 6/24/10

What do you think the people were doing in the OT..read it Exodus 25: 11-21 and in fact you could not touch it.(2 Samuel 6:7)
Look how joyfully John writes on Rev 11:19 about the Ark of the Covenant.A very Sacred image of a statue....
---Ruben on 6/25/10


Amen micha9344-
//Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God//

Agreed-
//According to all dictionaries venerate and worship mean the same thing!! There is no difference between these words.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10//

Worth repeating.
---char on 6/25/10


It doesn't appear that we can Latreia Jesus according to scripture. This is dangerously close to the Jehovah's Witness platform...
So, Is there a difference how we honor Jesus and God as far as worship?
Is there a difference how we honor Mary and Jesus as far as worship?
I think the line that people draw here is where God sees our hearts.
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luke 13:25b ...Lord, Lord, open unto us, and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
---micha9344 on 6/24/10


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I know nobody who gives Mary the worship of LATREIA that is due to God alone.

Furthermore, I don't think anybody who posts here does either.

They may THINK they do, but I really doubt they can see into the hearts of others.

If there ARE any people who give Mary LATREIA, they do that not BECAUSE of the teaching of the Church, BUT IN SPITE OF IT.
---Cluny on 6/24/10


Ruben, "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the centre of the throne,..." Revelation 5:6. This does not give man the right to make graven images!

You are correct, Paul preached Christ crucified but what is the connection with manufacturing effigies of Christ?

I was at the church with a reliable witness. You were not. You write in ignorance. Go and visit, then and only then will I listen to you upon this subject. Being there and being an experienced Christian I can judge when people are worshiping.

If the Ark of the Covenant was upon the altar accompanied by adoring angels, surrounded by 100 candles and people worshiping it, and praying to it then yes I would believe this is their god.
---Warwick on 6/24/10


\\from this verse is it reasonable to assume that the Lord Jesus Christ was the creator of Mary?
---mima on 6/24/10\\

Exactly. The Logos set up the physical processes that ultimately produced the body of Mariam bas Yoachim.

And it was from HER flesh that the Logos TOOK flesh and dwelt among us.
---Cluny on 6/24/10


Scripture Colossians 1:16,
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: from this verse is it reasonable to assume that the Lord Jesus Christ was the creator of Mary?
---mima on 6/24/10


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Warwick* Ruben no matter how you try and avoid it the facts are that worldwide the RC church displays effigies of Jesus crucified upon the cross-bad enough itself.

The book of Rev says "on the throne a Lamb like slain" and Paul says he preaches a crucify Christ a stumbling block for jews and gentiles and it looks like you as well.

Warwick* Following are the notes I wrote, then and there "Mary alone on the grand altar, angels adoring her, 100 candles lit for her, people praying to her. (this is their God.)"

Warwick if you were sitting having lunch and coffee and you saw a crowd of people following the Ark of the Covenant you would say (this is their God.)"
---Ruben on 6/24/10


I once was catholic. This is very interesting.
Catholic like many protestants believe that once you die to go to heaven to be with God ( barring pergatory).
Both catholics and prostants believe that those in heaven can see and even hear us.

Now here is where the catholics show greater faith in their beliefs.

If they can hear us, why can't they pray for us?

If your loved one died and went to heaven ( absent from the body present with the lord) and he can hear and even see you, what is wrong with asking him ot her to pray for you?
After all do we not ask our living friends and pastors to pray for us, why not one who is physically closer to the throne
---francis on 6/24/10


'venerate'- thesaurus entries
-admire, worship
-adore, worship
-cherish, worship
-consecrate, exalt
-deify, worship
-esteem, worship
-glorify, worship
-honor, worship
-idolize, exalt
-laud, worship
-love, worship
-observe, commemorate
-respect, obey
-revere, worship
-treasure, worship
-worship, glorify
-solemnize, commemorate
-memorialize, worship
-panegyrize, worship
---micha9344 on 6/24/10


According to all dictionaries venerate and worship mean the same thing!! There is no difference between these words.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10


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Read carefully the following verse, Luke 11:27-28 and then decide if Mary is to be worshiped or venerated.
"27-And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28-But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

---mima on 6/24/10


Worship NO but venerated YES!

The last verse says "blessed are they that hear the word of God"

Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word" (LK 1:38)
---Ruben on 6/24/10


Read carefully the following verse, Luke 11:27-28 and then decide if Mary is to be worshiped or venerated.
"27-And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28-But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."
---mima on 6/24/10


Those who worship the weaker vessel, rather than the Almighty King of kings, that is their idolatry. I believe that many people are raised as children in their families to follow this religion, and it is a great joy to see one lost like this to become truly saved and become a real born-again Christian.
---Eloy on 6/24/10


Many have come in His name speaking lies-
And give glory to another.

If you are a witness for God-your witness would be of His Word-Jesus Christ-through His Spirit-the Holy Spirit.

No other.
Not a church name
Apostle name
Mothers name
your name
etc......

The Name of Jesus Christ.
---char on 6/23/10


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Rhonda.

"Christ said MANY would come in his name teaching lies about HIM"

Let's see Rhonda. What heresies, since the first century of the Church (this is ASSUMING you know Church History), has been about Him? Answer Yes or NO if any of the following are lies about WHO Jesus is?

1) Arianism?
2) Adoptionism?
3) Gnosticism?
4) Docetism?
5) Ebionites?
6) Macedonianism?
7) Nestorianism?
8) Euthchianism?
9) Monothelitism?
10) Miaphysitism?
11) Monoenergism?

Which lie concerning Christ are you accusing Saint John of Damascus of believing? Do you even know anything about the early Christological controversies?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


Ignatius I am sure you are sincere but equally sure no Christian imagines Mary bore eternal God. Therefore she cannot be the mother of God, can she? The very idea is nonsensical.

As Scripture shows she bore the child Jesus, the flesh and blood person in whom "all the fullness of the deity lives.." However the deity is not flesh, not divisible and did not grow within her womb. Only the man Jesus grew in her womb. While God was within Jesus, like in no other man, He was everywhere at the same time. He is not limited by time, space and place, as we are. God was not localized within Jesus. So Mary cannot be the mother of eternal God, nor of part of God, as no such thing exists.

Let us call Mary the Mother of Jesus.
---Warwick on 6/23/10


Ruben no matter how you try and avoid it the facts are that worldwide the RC church displays effigies of Jesus crucified upon the cross-bad enough itself. However at Malene Mary was displayed in His place. The meaning is innescapable. To avoid confusion and complaint Mary could have been displayed near the cross.

In reality I was in the church mentioned in Le-Puy-en-Velay on 5th October 2008, just after a fine French lunch of Confit de Canard, etc washed down with a glass of rose, then coffee. Truly wonderful!

Following are the notes I wrote, then and there "Mary alone on the grand altar, angels adoring her, 100 candles lit for her, people praying to her. (this is their God.)"

BTW this is the famous black Mary.
---Warwick on 6/23/10


"...ideas from John of Damascus are antichrist to Holy Scripture" (Rhonda)

No, it is very scriptural and He simply restated the beliefs of the early centuries of the Church, concerning Christology. Sadly, the teachings of the Early Church is Antichrist to your beliefs and personal interpretations of Scriptures. That is why you are mad. There is a difference Rhonda.

"if you look close the babbling of words IMPLIES something altogether DIFFERENT than THE WORD found in Holy Scripture"

Tell me, what teaching of Saint Cyril of Alexandria and Saint John Damascus contradict what is written in Holy Scriptures?

If you believe he is 100% false, then it is YOU who do NOT believe Scriptures!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


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It's pointless to discuss Trinitarian and Christological doctrine (with its sub-sections of Incarnational doctrine and Marian doctrine) with people who are refusing to accept sound doctrine.

The Lord Himself will have to deal with them and show it to them.
---Cluny on 6/23/10


ignatius

very sweet poetic words of a great philosopher however sadly NOT an Apostle and ideas from John of Damascus are antichrist to Holy Scripture

if you look close the babbling of words IMPLIES something altogether DIFFERENT than THE WORD found in Holy Scripture

like many philosophers it is EASY to see how their words are polluted with the fantasy they promote and their ability to create very slick wording APART from Scripture duping many into falling for them

Christ said MANY would come in his name teaching lies about HIM

choose TRUTH in Holy Scripture
---Rhonda on 6/23/10


"[she is] the Mother of God. For inasmuch as He who was born of her was true God, she who bare the true God incarnate is the true mother of God. For we hold that God was born of her, not implying that the divinity of the Word received from her the beginning of its being, but meaning that God the Word Himself, Who was begotten of the Father timelessly before the ages, and was with the Father and the Spirit without beginning and through eternity, took up His abode in these last days for the sake of our salvation in the Virgin's womb, and was without change made flesh and born of her. For the holy Virgin did not bare mere man but true God [incarnated]...." (Saint John of Damascus: On the Orthodox Faith, BK 3:12)

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


where are the accounts of the Apostles worshiping Biblical Mary ...or as the victims in RCC have been duped into believing they are "venerating" her

they do worship THEIR Mary which is NOT the same as Biblical Mary

there are no examples in Holy Scripture of Apostles "venerating" Biblical Mary

whether one venerates or worships the adoration to a mother named Mary is simply idolatry and a borrowed pagan concept

BIBLICAL Mary was SIMPLY chosen as the Mother of the flesh and blood Christ NOTHING MORE is implied from Holy Scripture
---Rhonda on 6/23/10


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Read the Word-the only way to the Father.
God Himself confirms it.
The fruit of Marys' womb was blessed because Christ was in it.
Follow the Word-keep your eyes on Christ.
Don't take your eyes off.
The enemy has made mary an idol-she was a vessel-not an idol to be bow down to.
God has defined who to bow down to.
Himself-He alone gets the Glory-Amen.
---char on 6/23/10


mima

On the contrary Mima. My teachings is indeed biblical and sound within Ancient Christology, which you know nothing about. It was the teaching of the Early God-Bearing Fathers, and the first Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils, again, which you know nothing about.

Considering that you have a corrupt Christology (believing that Mary did not give Jesus His Flesh and thus was not His Real Mother), and have no knowledge of Church History, you are in no position to discuss Christology with us Mima.

I suggest you read Early Christian Doctrines by Renowned Protestant scholar J.N.D Kelly, and the other books I mention earlier and then you will understand.....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


Adetunji

"To all those who errorneously call Mary "mother of God", pls learn from how the Lord Jesus addressed her in John 2: 5 "woman"."

And this proves what exactly? Do you really think Jesus Christ was being disrespect to His Mother, whom He honor, per the Old Testament Law?

"Secondly in the flesh the Lord Jesus Christ denied Mary as HIS mother, read Matthew 12: 48-50. "

He did not. Mary was His Mother and did the Father's will. Besides, the biblical authors themselves called Mary his Mother. Were they in error for believing so?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


Adetunji *Secondly in the flesh the Lord Jesus Christ denied Mary as HIS mother, read Matthew 12: 48-50.

If he denied Mary his Mother than you broke one of his commanments "Honor your Father and Mother"
---Ruben on 6/23/10


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Warwick.

"I think it obvious that "Mary mother of God" carries the wrong connotation in English. It says that Mary is the mother of the eternal God...."

There lies the problem. The phrase "Mother of God" (The Theotokos) is not heretical and it sound within Christology if one understand how it was use by the Early God-Bearing Fathers, such as Saint Cyril of Alexandria, and understand the Incarnation as was taught by the Church in the first several centuries. Reject this, and you reject sound doctrine within Christology.

The only ones who have a problem with this phrase are Nestorians and those who are ignorant of Church History.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


I urge all reading this blog to carefully read the post by---Adetunji on 6/23/10
---mima on 6/23/10


Warwick* Ruben Jesus is fully God and fully flesh and blood man .

That's why Mary is the Mother of God the Son, to claim she is not is ridiculous!

Warwick* Unusually (for the RCC) Jesus was not displayed but in His place, standing upon therefore within was Mary!

Unless she was nail to the cross then you have something to complain.

Warwick *At Le-Puy-en-Velay in a church on top of one of the massive volcanic plugs (puys) is a statue of Mary on top of the main altar. Angels adoring, candles lit, people praying to her.

Warwick it sounds to me if you were there during the OT times, I will hear the same words about they are worshipping the statue of the Ark of the Covenant and not God.
---Ruben on 6/23/10


To all those who errorneously call Mary "mother of God", pls learn from how the Lord Jesus addressed her in John 2: 5 "woman". Secondly in the flesh the Lord Jesus Christ denied Mary as HIS mother, read Matthew 12: 48-50. Mary is actually blessed to be chosen by God as a TOOL to bring HIS prophecy to pass, but we should stop ascribing more to her than necessary. Abraham & David were listed as 2 persons Jesus descended from but the Lord Jesus said in John 8:58," . . ., Before Abraham was, I am". May the Lord grant more understanding to anyone that is still confused. Amen.
---Adetunji on 6/23/10


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This statement,"Ruben Jesus is fully God and fully flesh and blood man like you and me, otherwise He could not die" raises an interesting question. And that question is did the Spirit die when Jesus Christ's body died? What you think?
---mima on 6/23/10


ignatius .. According to the Mary was the mother of Jesus, after a pregnancy. The body which Jesus inhabited was new.

It is absurd to say that Mary was mother to the eternal Son of God ... she was mother to His human, eartly body.

if she was mother to God, she was mother to the Creator ... so she was there before God.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/23/10


---Ignatius

"Warwick

"Mary gave birth to the body"

That is like saying Mary gave birth to the human side of Christ only, which is NOT true and contrary to Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Early Church."

Since it is a elementary teaching, that like begets like, your statement makes Mary a goddess otherwise she could not be the mother of God!!

You're teaching is biblically wrong and soul losing to those who follow that teaching!!!
---mima on 6/23/10


\\Cluny I hear what you and other are saying but don't agree. \\

What you're saying is you reject sound doctrine concerning the Incarnation.
---Cluny on 6/23/10


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Warwick

"Mary gave birth to the body"

That is like saying Mary gave birth to the human side of Christ only, which is NOT true and contrary to Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Early Church. Women give birth to persons. And who is Jesus, but the God-Man(The Theanthropos)?

His Humanity and divinity are hypostatically united together: the two natures exist in the one person of the Word who became flesh, a divine person (or hypostasis). Christ exists "in two natures," without being of two natures, the two natures exist united together "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation." (Council of Chalcedon).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


Ignatius notwithstanding the correctness of your comments I think it obvious that "Mary mother of God" carries the wrong connotation in English. It says that Mary is the mother of the eternal God which is ridiculous. She is the highly estemed woman, chosen of God to bear the man Jesus. She did not, nor could she bear God who is not man, but Spirit.

Call her the mother of Jesus and there is no problem.

I do not know of any verse in the whole of Scripture which describes her as the mother of God.

God bless.
---Warwick on 6/23/10


Cluny I hear what you and other are saying but don't agree.

Our Lord Jesus is as we agree a member of the Godhead, and also fully man. This is indeed a mystery how God who is Spirit can fully reside in a human body. The Godhead is not three Gods as some claim but the one indivisible Spirit, one God. I and the Father are one, as Jesus said. To describe Mary as the mother of God is to say she has produced the eternal God from her womb. This cannot be as God obviously existed from all eternity.

I therefore believe it is incorrect and counterproductive to call her the mother of God.
---Warwick on 6/23/10


"since the Holy Virgin brought forth after the flesh God personally united to the flesh, for this reason we say of her that she is Theotokos, not as though the nature of the Word had its beginning of being from the flesh, for he was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God....but, as we said before, because having personally united man's nature to himself..."
Saint Cyril of Alexandria,To Nestorius,Epistle 17:11 (A.D. 430).

Whether or not Mary should be called "the Theotokos" and not "Christokos" is a deep subject within Christology, and unless one study the Christological controversies of the 4th/5th centuries, one will NEVER understand why Mary IS the Theotokos.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/23/10


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John II-


The problem here is not the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or the Assyrians, but people like you, who (without any disrespect intended) are ignorant of the original meaning of the term "The Theotokos" (loosely translated as "Mother of God"), the Christological heresies of the fourth/fifth centuries, and thus the theology and history of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils. This is "strong meat" for many of you, and then when you hear the title, you get shocked and scared and misunderstand what we are talking about.

But I will tell you this John II, by denying Mary is the "Theotokos", you are in essence denying Jesus is God. It is about WHO Jesus is........

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/22/10


It is common knowledge that catholics worship Mary. It is also known that Jesus is the Creator who created Mary, in order to put on flesh and come into the world.
---Eloy on 6/22/10


\\Mary gave birth to the body in which God the Spirit came among us. To claim Mary is the mother of God is ridiculous\\

Did your mother give birth to just a body--or to a PERSON?

In the same way, Mary gave birth to a PERSON who is both God and Man.

To say that Mary gave birth only to a body is to DENY this truth. In fact, it's to build up the very partition in the person of Christ that He came to destroy.

THIS is what Mother of God/Theotokos means.

No more, no less.
---Cluny on 6/22/10


Ruben Jesus is fully God and fully flesh and blood man like you and me, otherwise He could not die.

God is eternal, not flesh and cannot die. He was never born so cannot be Mary's son. Mary gave birth to the body in which God the Spirit came among us. To claim Mary is the mother of God is ridiculous.

The cross at Malene was of flat metal as wide as a ruler with an inner and outer outline cross. Unusually (for the RCC) Jesus was not displayed but in His place, standing upon therefore within was Mary!

At Le-Puy-en-Velay in a church on top of one of the massive volcanic plugs (puys) is a statue of Mary on top of the main altar. Angels adoring, candles lit, people praying to her. The antiBiblical cult of Mary!
---Warwick on 6/22/10


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Warwick* Those who refer to Mary as the Mother of God (which she isn't as God is eternal, having no mother) could resolve the issue by correctly stating that she is the mother of Jesus.

Jesus is God..she is the Mother of God the Son!

Warwick* For just one example, (beyond opinion) in the hills above the French village of Malene I came across a large iron outline cross, with Mary standing in the place of Jesus. She obviously should not be there!

Warwick , Was she on the cross? if not then how is it that Mary should not be there. She stood at the cross at Calvary " When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by" (Jhn 19:26)
---Ruben on 6/22/10


Contrary to what some are alleging here, "Mother of God/Theotokos" has NEVER meant "progenitrix of the Divine Nature."

It means that her Son, our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ is one PERSON in two natures, human and divine.

In His incarnation, what He does and experiences in one nature, He does in the other.

Anyone who says otherwise is bearing false witness.
---Cluny on 6/22/10


Warwick-

And who is Jesus? Have you read Luke 1:43?

FYI, the title "Theotokos" does not mean Mary created God or that she is equal to God. The title was given to the Virgin Mary by the Church in the 4th century to safeguard the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Apparently, you have no idea of the Christological controversies of the fourth century involving Nestorius and Saint Cyril of Alexandria.

I suggest you read saint Cyril of Alexandria and the Christological Controversy by John Mcgukin and The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology by Leo Donald Davis. You will then know why "Mother of God" is not a heretical term. But this is "strong meat".....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 6/22/10


Cluny, because those selected denominations and - seemingly substantial - the Assyrians support this divinely insulting 'Mother of God' claim to deification, does this make it right? These things don't become true just because you keep saying them, that's the way of the world. The bible is unbendable on the Christian showing a pure devotion to Him and that He is our Intercedent. You would have to do away with those pertaining bible messages (and others) to use Luke 1:42 with any real weight. One woman had to be chosen from the countless number of women who have been born into the world and bear the Lord Jesus - what a moment for her. But if you must deify someone, wouldn't Peter, Paul, John or even John the Baptist be a better choice?
---John_II on 6/22/10


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Those who refer to Mary as the Mother of God (which she isn't as God is eternal, having no mother) could resolve the issue by correctly stating that she is the mother of Jesus.

We should give Mary respect as we should any human, and further because she is the woman God chose to bear Jesus. She (as she admits)is a sinner and not to be worshiped.

The RCC church and many of its members do pray to, and worship Mary. For just one example, (beyond opinion) in the hills above the French village of Malene I came across a large iron outline cross, with Mary standing in the place of Jesus. She obviously should not be there!
---Warwick on 6/22/10


mike* why is there a prayer 'hail mary

Why not?

mike* why is it that mary is part of salvation of mankind?

Because she said 'Yes' to bring in the saviour of the world

mike* why is it RCC say mary is 'sinless'

Because she said "God has done great thing to me" and the angel said "For with God nothing is impossible"

mike* why is it RCC claim Mary ascended into heaven

we don't..

mike* why is it RCC claim that mary can persuade christ into answering prayers ie mary told christ to turn water into wine.

If he listen to his Mother then, how would he refuse her in heaven?
---Ruben on 6/22/10


\\why is it RCC called 'mother of god'\\

It's not just Roman Catholics.

It's Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonians, and classic Confessional Protestants.

Even the Assyrians say that "Mother of Christ our God" means the same thing.

Mother of God--or properly "Theotokos"--is about who JESUS is. The term means that the Child she bore is God and Man in one person.

And it's quite Biblical. See Luke 1:42-43.

For Who is Lord but God?
---Cluny on 6/22/10


Samuel
The trinity teachings Are here, Prov.14 v 12, Matt.15 v 9 & came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 end up here in Rev.17 v's 4 - 6.
This Is what the Man-made trin - relig - org's churches beginning with the rcc Are trying to do, John 10 v 1 trying to get into heaven without Jesus name baptism, without living a clean Holy life ( it will NOT be done ), Matt.22 v's 11 - 13 this man here stole his way into the wedding-feast ( like into heaven ), this man represents All the Man-made relig - org's churches that didn't have on the wedding garment which Is Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 which Fulfills Matt.28 v's 19 - 20 & living a clean-Holy life. This man was cast into outer darkness.

Only 1 God, Colo.2 v 9 & Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 6/22/10


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Yes JESUS is GOD incarnate or in the flesh. The Trinity doctrine is a biblical doctrine.

To respect Mary is fine. To pray and venerate her is not. I honour Mary as a Godly woman filled with the HOLY SPIRIT but who was a sinner who needed to be saved by JESUS. We pray only to GOD.

It is so sad to see people who have been taught they cannot go to GOD and JESUS directly they must go through some saint or the church instead of knowing that they go boldly to the throne of Grace by the intercession of our High Priest JESUS CHRIST. See Hebrews.
---Samuel on 6/22/10


Bill: You show wisdom in your discussion of some people's ignorance of worship.

I know from my childhood, attending Catholic school, every classroom had a statue of Mary in it, along with a crucifix on the wall. Everyday, during the month of May, we had May processions with people putting crowns of flowers on the statues in each classroom, and singing "Ave Maria." At the age of 8, I did not comprehend the word "Worship" but I saw that I was supposed to sing and praise her. I also know that pictures of Mary, Joseph and Jesus had a halo around their heads. Something unseen in Protestant traditions.

Not giving an opinion, just sharing memories.
---Trish9863 on 6/21/10


\\The Man-made rcc the first trin-relig-org church\\

Lawrence, then why in the 15th century did Portuguese explorers discover an ancient Church in India of Apostolic foundation that had never had any connection with Rome, and yet worshipped God as Trinity?
---Cluny on 6/21/10


There are people who do not even know what worship is, but they are claiming they worship God and not Mary, when in fact they do not know what God considers to be worship.

Also, I would say where your *attention* goes, mainly, has a lot to do with who and what you really worship. It seems a number of Mary "venerators" give a lot more attention to Mary, than to God our Father and to Jesus.

Who you *obey* can have a lot to do with who you worship. Obeying can have a lot to do with who and what you allow to have power over you, emotionally. If we obey God, we have peace. "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)
---Bill_bila5659 on 6/21/10


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The Man-made rcc the first trin-relig-org church they worship Mary, images, figurines, use prayer-beads, pergatory, idols etc so they don't have to worship God. Prov.14 v 12, Matt.15 v 9 which came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15 even they Are here Rev.17 v's 4 - 6, & Is an abomination to Almighty God.
---Lawrence on 6/21/10


There is a careful distinction in Greek and in the Green NT, which is lost in English, between the LATREIA owed to God alone and DOULEIA or TIMI, the "honor to whom honor is due."

It's further complicated by the Greek word PROSKYNEO used to include both.

Otherwise, Marian doctrine is "strong meat" to discuss with spiritual babes who do not yet comprehend the doctrine that Jesus is God Incarnate.
---Cluny on 6/21/10


venerate is to give respect

worship reverent love & devotion accorded a deity

if RCC say that they do not worship her, then

why is there a prayer 'hail mary
why is it that mary is part of salvation of mankind? do hail mary & people in purgatory will be saved
why is it RCC say mary is 'sinless'
why is it RCC called 'mother of god'
why is it RCC interpret that Genesis 3:15 the woman will crush your head is mary
why is it RCC claim Mary ascended into heaven
why is it RCC claim that mary can persuade christ into answering prayers ie mary told christ to turn water into wine.
---mike on 6/21/10


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