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Are Christians Jews

Romans 2:28-29 tells us who is a real Jew. Do you believe Christians are the real Jews?

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MarkV, lets go back a few verses to put into perspective.
Romans 2:14-16
14For when the Gentiles(nations/ethnos of Israel),.... 15Which shew the work of law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,..---kathr4453 on 7/1/10

Perspective, rabbiness? This verse is in reference to the Nth House of Israel who, by divorce were aliens from the "Commonweatlth" of Ruling with GOD, Israel.
Heb 8:10, Jer 31:33 states the laws written on the House of Israels heart. None other. This light is a guide for any who walk in or adopt. Fulfilling & confirming "light" scriptures. Confirmed and visible here at times, even when not properly understood or aligned with witnessing scripture.
---Trav on 7/2/10


Romans 2. Man has the moral law written in his conscience,...QUESTION.. Romans 3 1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The Oracles of God were not given to Abraham or Isaac, but the 12 tribes called Israel were given the LAW.

Called to SERVICE through Jacob to be a light unto the Nations, and bringing through THEM Jesus Christ. Just as today the CHURCH is to be a light unto the nations.

Many call themselves christian or a member of a church, however we can also say, not all who say they are christian are christian, and not all in the earthly church are in the Heavenly Church..His Body!
---kathr4453 on 7/2/10


Kathr, why do you bring the Calvin teaching into this discussion? There is no need to do that. The information I am giving you is from Scripture. Calvin does not teach about who is the circumcision and who isn't. Can you please stay withing the boundaries? If you cannot, then I will stop answering you as I have lately. The Word of God is important to me, and I do not mind discussing it with any born again believer.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/10


MarkV, lets go back a few verses to put into perspective.

Romans 2:14-16
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Meaning ALL men are accountable before God! Men are not totally depraved!
The Law of Conscience regardless of the Law of Moses condemns our conscience.
If a Gentile can accuse someone of a wrong, they KNOW right from wrong!
---kathr4453 on 7/1/10


For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law, but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

Who was Paul talking to? JEWS....He was not teaching the Mystery..which is CHRIST IN YOU.

WE do not KEEP the LAW even as a New Creation. However the true circumcision are Abraham's Spiritual seed( 8th day)..and Abraham was NOT A JEW!
---kathr4453 on 7/1/10




Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

All none hebrews/ israeli who claim to be christians are grafted into a vey JEWISH tree
And spiritual fed from JEWISH BOOKS ONLY.
There is no writings to the gentiles.
God has NEVER made any covenant with gentiles, we all accepted a covenant made with israel and judah ( THE JEWS)

Romans 15:27 For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of theirSPIRITUAL THINGS, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is SPIRITUAL:
---francis on 7/1/10


Paul must have forgotten by the time he wrote Romans 9 and 1st Corinthians what he said in Romans 2. According to MarkV, and the Calvin teaching, only the elect are saved. The elect then according to MarkV are the true Jew, and all else gentiles. Well praise God, He has called UNBELIEVING Gentiles too. WHOSOEVER WILL!!!


Romans 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And Again, Paul must have forgotten Romans 2, now saying the preaching of the cross is a stumbling block to us, true JEWS and foolishness to gentiles. Oh dear!

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness,
---kathr4453 on 7/1/10


Kathr, I believe we agree on almost everything, here is my answer your question,
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God" (Romans 2:28).

The outward rite is of value only when it reflests the nner reality of a heart separated from sin unto God (Deut. 10:16, 30:6). Spirit of the letter" means that salvation results form the work of God's Spirit in the heart, not mere external efforts to conform to His law.
---Mark_V. on 7/1/10


However, here is a thinking question: Should Gentiles believers convert to some form of Judaism?
---Rod4Him on 7/1/10

What I find interesting is those who call themselves Spiritual Jews, Messianic Jews, etc, actually do keep some forms of Judaism, whether the sabbath, or believing they are God's ONLY elect, stealing all the blessings and future promises given to Israel, also God's elect. Even taking promises given to earthly Israel and applying them to the Church.

WE are a NEW creature in the NEW creation of which Christ is Head, our blessings in Heavenly Places.....Crucified to the world as well as crucified with Christ totally severing any history we had in Adam 1, whether Jew of Gentile.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/10


This is an interesting question and books have been written on the topic. I am still reseaching what Jews are expected to do if they accept Christ.

However, to answer the question, no, not physically. That's like asking, Can a Mexican become an Asian?

A Jew is an ethnic issue. However, a believer can be considered a "spiritual Jew," a person in Christ is a new creation and child of God.

However, here is a thinking question: Should Gentiles believers convert to some form of Judaism?
---Rod4Him on 7/1/10




Isaiah 49:6b ...preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles...
Micah 5:8 ...among the Gentiles in the midst of many people.
The prophets proclaim that Israel may be among them, but they are not the Gentiles.
---micha9344 on 6/30/10


Gentile is a worse translation in the Old Testament....but, search it out. Israel, the Nth House covenanted anew, has been a light to all the world/peoples.

You make the point scripture points too with your last statement. Among...but, still separate.
It really is not a problem whether we are or we are not....if we receive a blessing, because of our belief. If we have a unity with GODs servant....what is the issue?
---Trav on 7/1/10


>"For we are "the circumcision." who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh"

---MarkV. on 6/30/10

Exactly MarkV, however did you read the rest of Phil 3. Paul said his connection to being a JEW was OVER and out.

Circumcision was given Abraham( who was not a Jew) on the 8th day. The 8th day pointed to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ rose again on the 8th Day. The first day after the 7th. Our Life is IN HIM, Circumcised with the circumcision of JESUS CHRIST Colossians 2. Nothing in Colossians 2 about circumcision of the heart.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/10


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

If you are a christian, you have entered intpo a jewish covenant. So act like a Jew who accept christ. STop eating swine and all manner of unclean animals, and for christ sake start keeping the sabbath. You are a Jew act like one.
---francis on 7/1/10


Kathr 2: I do not see much difference in what you are saying then what I am saying. The Seg put it down real good. Paul was enraptured by this theme and wrote a lot about it. "By which when your read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body" Eph.( 3:4-6) Here Paul called this uniting of Jews and Gentiles into "the same body" the mystery of Christ, "which is revealed "by the Spirit." This mystery says, that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"
---MarkV. on 6/30/10


Great answer Seg, loved how you put it all down.

Kathr, circumcision of the heart, are all those who worship God in the Spirit. And all those who worship God in the Spirit are those who are born of the Spirit.
Phil. 3:3
>"For we are "the circumcision." who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh"
The physical linage of Abraham, were circumcised outwardly in the flesh. But if any of them were circumcised inwardly, of the heart, they were one with those Gentiles believers who were circumcised of the heart also. The children of Promise.
Once saved, you are neither of all those in Col. 3:10,11).
---MarkV. on 6/30/10


I can say deal with it!

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Because!
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


The children of the promise are counted for the seed!
There is no Jew!
Do you believe the promise? No, right!
God Bless
---TheSeg on 6/30/10


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A true Jew of God is one who is circumcied of the heart.
---MarkV. on 6/30/10

MarkV, would you notice Paul teaching in Romans 2 was not at that time teaching about the CHURCH, the MYSTERY of God. That MYSTERY being no longer Jew OR Gentile....WOW what a mystery that is.

Also the mystery is not having a circumcised heart either.

The Church is not circumcised in heart. We are Circumcised with the Circumcision of CHRIST ALL OVER OUR BODY, in putting off ALL the sin of the flesh, Col 2...

If all you can say about your salvation is your heart has been circumcised,you are in BIG trouble. In the OT hearts were also circumcised, but there was NO Circumcision of Christ in putting OFF the sin of the flesh.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


Deuteronomy 30:3, 5, 6

--- 3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
---
5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, ---. -When did Paul ever teach such hings??




6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, ***and the heart of thy seed, ---*** No promise in the NT that our children are automatically circumcised of heart if WE obey.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


Isaiah 49:6b thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles...unto the end of the earth.
Jeremiah 46:1-2a The word of the LORD which came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Gentiles: Against Egypt,
Hos 8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure.
Ezekiel 4:13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people.
The prophets proclaim that Israel may be among them, but they are not the Gentiles.
---micha9344 on 6/30/10


A true Jew of God is one who is circumcied of the heart. Just because he is a descendant of Abraham (circumcised outwardly) does not mean he is one inwardly. He has to be a believer. If he is a believer it is as Kathr has stated, believing Jews and believing Gentiles have both become one. The two combine are "Abraham's Seed" (Gal. 3:29) This is the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15,16). This mystery has been accomplished by our Messiah's painful passion, on the Cross. Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcisiom, who worship God in the Spirit.."
The promises are not for Israel of the flesh, only for those in the Spirit.
The Word of God is my witness.
---MarkV. on 6/30/10


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Ephesians 2:11-13
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Both Canadian and Australian are part of the Commonwealth of England, however Citizens of Canada or Australia do not become an Englishman.
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


Rev 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

The CHURCH made up both Jew and Gentile becoming ONE NEW MAN (IN CHRIST) ((no longer known after the flesh))are not JEWS, is very clear in scripture.

Therefore be warned OH NEW CREATURE, of those who call themselves JEWS when THEY ARE NOT!!!

Why would the CHURCH be impressed with a Jew calling himself a Jew?
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


What happened to the Greeks trav?
Will you also seek to change these verses?
Only 3 kinds of people in the world according to scripture: ---micha9344 on 6/29/10


Well micha necessary to do some of the "light" work yourself. I shouldn't have to point everything to you....you should be provoked enough to search by now...and see where "Trav" didn't change scripture....but, the translators/men changed.
Be a 100% percenter. Provide GODs prophet prophecy's that support you 100%.
Isaiah 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
---Trav on 6/30/10


Which means that if Someone who is "called a Jew' because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, he is "Not a Jew." To God he is a Gentile. And any Gentile who through faith keeps the righeous requirements he is a Jew. ( Romans 2:17,25-26, 28-29).
---MarkV. on 6/29/10


MarkV, no where does it say in scripture that non believing Jews are GENTILES. That is a MORMON derogatory comment and it seems others use this as well. Paul was talking of a spiritual perspective..not a LITERAL one.

John 6:52
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Here we have UNBELIEVING JEWS!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


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Romans 9:2-4
2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,

Here are ISRAELITES, not Gentiles, who are Paul's flesh, who Paul calls himself a Jew.

It's ridiculous to argue if one is Jew or Not....

Let's be sure of this Believing Gentiles are NOT ISRAELITES. Therefore, cannot be the Israel of God!!! The Israel of God is God's Chosen Elect people, out of ISRAEL, all 12 tribes!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/30/10


Perhaps I can clear this up a little by telling you that the only brand of Jew that is not officially recognized are Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews are those who believe Christ Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and they number about 100,000.
---Higgins on 6/30/10


Good question Haz.

Christians can be Jews but Gentiles can't be Jews.
---larry on 6/29/10


What happened to the Greeks trav?
How about these verses?
Rom 2:9-10 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Will you also seek to change these verses?
Only 3 kinds of people in the world according to scripture: unbelieving Jews, unbelieving nonJews (Gentiles) and believers (the church).
---micha9344 on 6/29/10


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Parentheses mine: Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Nth House of Divorced Israel)
answer: Acts 10:45b because that on the (Nations/Ethnos of Divorced Israel) also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
problem?: Heb 8:8b when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
answer: Acts 13:46 It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the (Nations/Ethnos) of Israel. ---micha9344 on 6/29/10

There, now your reply makes sense and aligns with ALL the prophets.
---Trav on 6/29/10


Therefore, if any uncircumcised man (a Gentile) keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, or is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter whose praise is not from men but from God.
Which means that if Someone who is "called a Jew' because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, he is "Not a Jew." To God he is a Gentile. And any Gentile who through faith keeps the righeous requirements he is a Jew. ( Romans 2:17,25-26, 28-29).
---MarkV. on 6/29/10


Christians are Christians, Jews and Gentiles can be Christians,under the Gospel of Grace. The Body of Christ

Under the Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ and the 12 addressed to the Nation of Israel, under Law, some gentiles were prosolyted, but they were not Jews.

Unbelieving Jews are unbelieving Jews
Unbelieving Gentiles are unbelieving Gentiles
---michael_e on 6/29/10


problem?: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
answer: Romans 1:16b to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
problem?: Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
answer: Acts 10:45b because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
problem?: Heb 8:8b when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
answer: Acts 13:46 It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Shall we continue with your misuse of the word 'Gentile'?
---micha9344 on 6/29/10


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Some here have a problem distinguishing between Gentile, Greek, Jew, Judah, Israel, Jacob, and Hebrew....all in context...
---micha9344 on 6/28/10

Yes in context. In the context of misunderstood scripture. Now problem solver, answer man, balance that with some prophets and scripture you avoided.
You've never addressed these simple ones posted previously. Matt 10:6, Matt 15:24. Heb 8:8, Jer 31:31. or the other 2,318 VERSES showing a all context. Context, Two Thousand Three Hundred and Eighteen verses mention Ruling with GOD, the name.
I predict you'll disappear for a while.
---Trav on 6/29/10


michael_e, isn it interesting how the Bible is so clear concerning the NATION Israel, and God's promises to them at His return, and how much MORE are we His Church( both Jew and Gentile being ONE NEW MAN) who will be coming back WITH HIM. To us today salvation is an individual receiving of Christ. Yet to the NATION, God calls ISRAEL, (the church is NOT a Nation called Israel that was given land, then all scattered/ dispersed and then brought back as is promised in Ezekiel 36, Isaiah 14 Zech 23-14 ...do people not know GOD's Sovereignty WILL save who He wants..and He said He is going to SAVE Israel

These same people who argue God's sovereignty will save WHO HE wants...then turn around and say HE WON'T do what He said He will do.
---kathr4453 on 6/28/10


Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Some here have a problem distinguishing between Gentile, Greek, Jew, Judah, Israel, Jacob, and Hebrew....all in context...
---micha9344 on 6/28/10


---kathr4453 on 6/25/10
Amen Kath, worth repeating


God made a Covenant with ISRAEL...found in one place Ezekiel 36. God NEVER made a covenant with Gentiles. A Partial fulfilling of the new Covenant has taken place, however to Israel the Nation, Christ the DELIVER comes out of SION(Heaven itself..in full Bodily form just as He went UP, He will RETURN Zechariah 12-14 AND...ACTS 1:6-11...not Mary's womb...
---michael_e on 6/28/10


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Read the bible
"Galatians 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus".
---SZ on 6/27/10

Yes, lets read the Bible for a change. Israel is not composed of just jews. The are 1/12 of Israel. Yeah, northern house of Israel was divorced....but, then we find them brought back in the New Covenant (testament).
Lets read Heb 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel AND with the house of Judah:

Now your preacher/denom....doesn't understand it....so they avoid it. Research scripture yourself... see and hear.
---Trav on 6/28/10


Read the bible
"Galatians 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Christians are now called the Body of Christ, He is the head of his body. Jews have not accepted Him as Messiah yet if they're not Messianic Jews. Replaced Theology is not biblical. Jews will one day believe, for the Bible said so.
---SZ on 6/27/10


True christians are all hews.
remember what jesus said: the tares look like the wheat.
many christians denominations think they are wheat, but they look nothing like the original church which was made up of jews and converts to judism.

can you imagine pater coming to one of your potlucks and eating porkchops?

Can you imagine the apostle paul coming to your city and not finding you in church every sabath?

Can you imagine James coming to your state and hearing about the worship of EASTHER?
( queen of heaven)

It is only because of the major influence of paganism and heathanism, that we cannot see the jewish roots of christianity in the church.
---francis on 6/26/10


no. we are part of the other sheep Jesus talked about. we are the gentiles ,bring adopted into Gods kingdom by accepting Jesus as our king & saviour, & acceptnig his fathers message.
---candice on 6/26/10


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God made a Covenant with ISRAEL...found in one place Ezekiel 36. ---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


One place for you perhaps...because you have lost the other Ethnos/nations of the house of Israel. Your claim/tribe is a twelth. Covenant:is used 280 times to the lineage.
Genesis 6:18
But with thee will I establish my covenant,
Genesis 17:2
And I will make my covenant between me and thee
Leviticus 26:9
For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
29The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Sought & found: Matt10:6/ 15:24.
---Trav on 6/25/10


And so ALL Israel will be SAVED, AS it is WRITTEN: "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from JACOB. And this is MY COVENANT WITH THEM when I take away THEIR sins." ( Notice scripture that refers to WE, US, vs THEIR THEM,THEY)
As far as the gospel is concerned, they ISRAEL... are enemies on your account.

God made a Covenant with ISRAEL...found in one place Ezekiel 36. God NEVER made a covenant with Gentiles. A Partial fulfilling of the new Covenant has taken place, however to Israel the Nation, Christ the DELIVER comes out of SION(Heaven itself..in full Bodily form just as He went UP, He will RETURN Zechariah 12-14 AND...ACTS 1:6-11...not Mary's womb...
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


"He came to his own, and his own received him not, but have done to him whatsoever they lusted, and have violated and by wicked hands have crucified and slain the Lord of glory. They have said among themselves, This is the heir, Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours. And they seized him, and cast out of the vineyard, and slew. When the Lord comes, what will he do to these? These sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness: there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For whosoever will reject me in front of men will be rejected in front of the angels of God. And the kingdom of God will be taken from the sons of the kingdom, and given to others bringing forward the fruits thereof."
---Eloy on 6/25/10


"He came to his own, and his own received him not, but have done to him whatsoever they lusted, and have violated and by wicked hands have crucified and slain the Lord of glory. They have said among themselves, This is the heir, Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours. And they seized him, and cast out of the vineyard, and slew. When the Lord comes, what will he do to these? These sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness: there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For whosoever will reject me in front of men will be rejected in front of the angels of God. And the kingdom of God will be taken from the sons of the kingdom, and given to others bringing forward the fruits thereof."
---Eloy on 6/25/10


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... until the full number of the ("ethnos/Nations") of the (divorced Nth House) has come in.

And so ALL Israel will be SAVED, AS it is WRITTEN: "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from JACOB. And this is MY COVENANT WITH THEM when I take away THEIR sins." ( Notice scripture that refers to WE, US, vs THEIR THEM,THEY)
As far as the gospel is concerned, they ISRAEL... are enemies on your account. ---kathr4453 on 6/25/10

NEW COVENANT HEB 8:8-10
If you understood the divorce of the Nth House of Israel who lost the marriage name of Israel....only Judah was an enemy for religions sake. Still are 2000 years later. The Lost Sheep Nth House, is the Eklesia/church.
---Trav on 6/25/10


In the Church there are GENTILE Believers and Jewish Believers. Among the Jewish believers they come from ALL 12 tribes James addresses. To the Jew first then to the Gentile is said more than once. The other 9-10 tribes( Not Judah, Benjamin and Levi) are NOT GENTILES.


Acts 15:23
With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.

Acts 21:25
As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." ( Notice scripture that refers to WE, US, vs THEIR THEM,THEY)

As far as the gospel is concerned, they ISRAEL... are enemies on your account. Paul said that Israel has experienced a "hardening in part," No where has the CHURCH already saved experienced a hardening in part!
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


Moses was not a jew
Abraham was not a jew
Noah was not a jew
jacob was not a jew

This is the first mentionof the word jew in th ebible. It refers to people who live din the territory of Judah, not the tribe of Judah. It consisted of tribe of benjamin, tribe of judah, and tribe of levi.
2 Kings 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

Moses could be called one of the children of israel, but he cannot be called a jew
---francis on 6/25/10


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Romans 16:3-4
3Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 4Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.


"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles (saved Gentiles). But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the SAVED Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision. The (saved Jews) joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas A JEW was led astray. --
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


Trav, Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin, yet he is a JEW Correct. Are you suggesting only ONE tribe is Jewish..how silly. the word Jew comes from Judah correct, but in no way implies only that tribe is Jewish.

Paul states:

Galatians 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Here it does NOT say...We who are Jews by the TRIBE of Judah only!!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


According to the N. T. believing Jews and believing Gentiles are now one. Eph. 2:11-16. The two combined are "Abraham's seed" Gal. 3:29. This is the "Israel of God" Gal. 6:15,16. This mystery has been accomplished by our Messiah's at the cross. He did it. When He died, He demolished the wall. Should Christians gather bricks and rebuild the wall Jesus Christ died to abolish? Paul declared, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God" Believers are, circumciced from the heart. Spiritual Israel.
---Mark_V. on 6/25/10


Haz27. When Moses was born, he was a Jew correct. Born to Jewish parents. Moses was not circumcised the 8th day..yet still Jewish.

raised by Gentiles, however was still a JEW.
One day he found out he was a Jew and who his parents were..JEWS.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10

Moses was not Judean/jew.
He was of Levi.
Levi is not Judah. Kinda strange how he found out he was jewish and that his parents had changed tribes on him?
Exodus 2:1 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
Rabbiness, use scripture witness when you attempteaching. No value otherwise. Lesson one.
Lesson 2: There were 13 named tribes of Israel. Judah is one.
---Trav on 6/25/10


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kathr, Man looks on the outside: God looks on the heart to judge, regardless if born from Jacob: God is no respector of race: "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: for you all are one in Christ Jesus. And if you all Christ's, then are you all Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Not being for the appearance, a Jew, nor the appearance in flesh, circumcision, but the hidden in whom a Jew, and circumcision of heart, in spirit, not in letter, neither the praise not from men, but from God. For the Son of man will come in the glory who's Father of him, with the angels of him, then he will reward to each according to the works of them."
---Eloy on 6/25/10


If the Bible said Gentile Christians are children of Jacob rather than children of Abraham then we would have reason to be called "spiritual Jews," because only the descendants of Jacob are Jews. Even Galatains NEVER make such an analogy.

The Bible never says that Christians are "children of Jacob," and the Bible never refers to anyone as a "spiritual Jew," and in fact the Bible specifically says that Gentile Christians share in (not "take over") the Jews' spiritual blessings.

Gentile Christians have inherited the spiritual promises of Abraham by faith, but we have not inherited the physical or national promises that God made to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


I know that God sent his son to the jewish people as a redeemer, and offer of eternal life and salvation thru the cross.jesus said he came first for the jews,but was told even the dogs eat scraps under the table.But most rejected him.God has a convenant with the jews thru abraham ,Issac,and jacob,this convenant can never be broken,Israel are his chosen people,but his son offers salvation to the world.To me when anyone accepts christ we are all the same.
---tom2 on 6/25/10


//It might be more precise to say that Christians are the true children of Abraham.//

It might be even more precise to say that those truly in Christ are the true children of Abraham.
---aka.joseph on 6/25/10


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kathr4453 Christians are the true Jews, the children of Abraham.----
---Haz27 on 6/24/10

Haz27, Abraham is the father of both Jew and Gentile. The fact is he believed for ALL of us. ALL nations of people are blessed through him.

We(Born Again Christians) are Abraham's SPIRITUAL seed not physical seed. Abraham was NOT A JEW, AKA Israel. Neither was Isaac.

JACOB is who God gave the Name Israel who are also kown as JEWS ,the physical descendants of the 12 physical tribes.

I am a Jew, but did not become a TRUE Jew when I got saved!!!! I became a NEW CREATURE in Christ. Like Isaac so are we, Children of Promise.
---kathr4453 on 6/25/10


Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

They were known as just another sect of jews.
the book of acts goes through great length to show that christianity is just the acceptance of the messiah's promise. It is infact thelogical outcome of faith in God and is very jewish.

It is only because of the large number of none hebrews that have joined the church that we even question the jewish nature of christianity.
---francis on 6/25/10


I am going to have to put the answer here as, NO! Here we see the double sense in which the term Jew is used. Frequently people speak of "Christians" as a term in opposition to heathen. In another sense true believers in the Lord are called "Christians".....Paul is making a case that not all who are called Jews are truly Jewish. To be truly Jewish [1] must be born of Abraham through Issac [that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh] and [2] to be spiritually in tune with Abraham's God [circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit]....The only true Jew is one who is a Jew by race and is a believer by God's grace. Birth alone cannot make a Jew righteous.
---catherine on 6/24/10


It might be more precise to say that Christians are the true children of Abraham.
---Cluny on 6/24/10
Agreed and Amen...
---micha9344 on 6/24/10


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kathr4453 Christians are the true Jews, the children of Abraham.
Gal3:16 Promises made to Abraham and his seed, "which is Christ". Christians have Christ in them.
Col2:11 "...you are circumcised with the circumcisdion made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ".
Thus confirming Rom 2:28,29 Christians are the true Jews with the true circumcision.
---Haz27 on 6/24/10


There are Jews by race who are anti-Christ and therefore anti-God and anti-Jew, and there are Jews by race who are pro-Christ and therefore pro-God and pro-Jew: and this same reality applies to every single individual soul. Please Read- Galatians 3:27-29.
---Eloy on 6/24/10

Eloy I disagee. Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the messiah are not anti-God and anti-Jew.


They believe in the SAME God and you and I!!!
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10


Yes, Christians a.k.a. Messianic Jews are the REAL and COMPLETE Jews. This is because Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah (Messiah). Once the Orthodox Jews come to realize and accept this, then they too become the REAL and COMPLETE Jews. Christians and Jews are ALL one in Jesus (Yeshua), and form the one new man, according to the Bible.
---Leslie on 6/24/10


It might be more precise to say that Christians are the true children of Abraham.
---Cluny on 6/24/10


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Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness, But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Only 3 people in the world, which are you?
---micha9344 on 6/24/10


The true Jew has no geographic or racial lines, the Christian which is a true Jew, can be born in Jerusalem, China, Russia, Asia, Africa, England, America, or anywhere at all. When a person is born-again from Christ they are translated from the kingdom of the world to the kingdom of Christ, and their name is written in heaven as a citizen of the New Jerusalem. Out of One Blood God has made all nations of people for to dwell upon all the face of the earth, Not two bloods, but One Blood. There are Jews by race who are anti-Christ and therefore anti-God and anti-Jew, and there are Jews by race who are pro-Christ and therefore pro-God and pro-Jew: and this same reality applies to every single individual soul. Please Read- Galatians 3:27-29.
---Eloy on 6/24/10


Haz27. When Moses was born, he was a Jew correct. Born to Jewish parents. Moses was not circumcised the 8th day..yet still Jewish.

He was raised by Gentiles, however was still a JEW. He did not practice the Jewish faith at that time, because he did not know he was a JEW.

One day he found out he was a Jew and who his parents were..JEWS. Then Moses identifies himself with HIS PEOPLE yet still was never circumcised.

So can you tell me when Moses was circumcised? Does scripture tell us he then at the time of His circumcision became a Jew?

You cannot spiritualize away the Jewish Hebrew People. Gentiles who joined themselves to Israel did NOT become Jews then either, they were proselytes.
---kathr4453 on 6/24/10


Inside The Lord's body, there are only spiritual creations (NEW CREATION). Spiritual creations have no gender ("neither male nor female").

There is also no cultural background or heritage inside The Lord's body (meaning that, in The Lord, there are no Jews). Since there are no Jews, there are also no non-Jews (no Gentiles...."greeks").

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female".
---more_excellent_way on 6/24/10


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Circumcision today is putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the Circumcision of Christ. Colossians 2. are not JEWS but NEW CREATURES, no longer a Jew or Gentile.

With Abraham circumcision was a SIGN that he believed and he received this AFTER his faith..****Romans 4.

Just as Baptism for us is outward making a profession of our faith that we were buried with Him and reaised a New Creature.

So, just baptism alone never saved anyone..neither did outward circumcision.

---kathr4453 on 6/24/10


YES! OF COURSE THEY ARE!
---JOHN on 6/23/10


Romans2 speaks of physical circumcision being NOT the sign of a Jew.
It is the circumcision of the heart which is the true circumcision.
Circumcision is the cutting away of the flesh which is what happens when people turn to Christ. We are crucified with Christ. The old man dies and we are a new creature.
---Haz27 on 6/23/10


Yes

The word Jew was first used to define those who lived in the Nation ( not tribe) of Judah. It was later used to described those who stayed faithful to God in captivity ( esther)

It was then used to describe those who returned from exile (tribes of judah, benjamin, and levi)

Then it was used for those who were spiritually faithful to God ( both hebrew and prosthylite day of penticost)

Then it was used to describe all christians

Sometimes it is used to show a distinction betwen hebrew ( jew) and none hebrew.

Romans 11 shows that we ( none hebrews) are planted into a very jewish tree.

That being said: Should not christianity is it's pure form look something like judism?
---francis on 6/23/10


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Haz27,

I think the question should be: whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, is your heart circumcised by the one True God? Rom 3:29-30

On one hand, if one is truly circumcised, it does not matter who is a Jew or Gentile.

On the other, to track and understand God's Plan of Salvation for all mankind through an unlikely people makes Scripture so much richer, which in turn will have many returns here and in God's presence.

But, my question to you and everybody who reads this: does circumcision of the heart take place if you are not willing to untangle the mess of mixed and false Gospels that leads to one true Savior?
---aka.joseph on 6/24/10


As mentioned many times in Acts, Paul's devotion to Jesus was called "the way" (one mention is when a Roman official spoke about Paul's devotion, Acts 24:22). Believe Jesus when He says...

John 14:6
"I am THE WAY...".

It is my PERSONAL (PERSONAL relationship) choice to be baptized by God's spirit INTO the body of JESUS (the Jews were baptized (consecrated to) into Moses by the Red Sea and the cloud (the Jews never had REST in Jesus like we do)

1 Corinthians 10:2
"and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea".
---more_excellent_way on 6/24/10


We are NOT Jews, we are "TRUE worshippers"....

John 4:23
"and now is, when the true worshipers...".

It is a false belief that we are Jews. We are modern day JESUS people, NOT JEWS. When you make a CLEAR distinction in your heart that our spiritual heritage is GOD (not "Israel"), then you can receive the "anointing" (we cannot realize the anointing until we realize that our REAL heritage is GOD...His REAL truth is 'built in' common sense understanding)...

1 John 2:27
"but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you, as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie".
---more_excellent_way on 6/24/10


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