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Signs And Wonders

If you don't believe in signs and wonders, what methods are using to know you're on the right track?

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 ---mima on 6/28/10
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JamssL and MarkV and Michael_e, are you all suggesting Peter and the disciples/Apostles were actually disciples of John the Baptist, continuing John the Baptist's message of repent and be baptized?

Interestingly, John's didn't offer the Holy Spirit. And I do see Paul was baptized. What do you believe, Paul believed or repented? I guess you find these two entirely different things?

Seeing Paul was a Jew who would have said Crucify Him, and also murdering Christians who believed oh I mean repented, was Paul, a Jew, Saved, or Saved, or Saved? What Saved category did he belong?
---Laura on 9/24/10


Mark_Eaton, isn't it amazing that what Peter wrote in both of his epistles are to the CHURCH. To suggest Peter preached TO JEWS two entirely different gospels at the same time is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I wonder how he decided what Gospel to offer to who.

---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


Paul uses "saved" in Romans 5:10 when he speaks of the resurrection. He also uses "saved" in Romans 10:1-20, referring to our inheritance
---James_L on 9/23/10

I CANNOT agree with these statements.

Romans 5:6-11 describes God pouring out his love for the ungodly and that we are saved from the wrath to come (5:9). It does not describe any resurrection in the passage.

Romans 10:1-20 describes the Jews by birth, their rejection of righteousness by faith and God's calling of the Gentiles to salvation.

You are reading INTO the Word, not out of the Word.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/10


Show me scripture like this other than the Pauline epistles?
---michael_e on 9/23/10

1 Peter 1:1-3 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His BLOOD: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the DEAD"

You need to stop drawing conclusions and actually read the Word.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/24/10


spiritual fruit. i see why they are minimized...everybody wants to be wowed and entertained.

as mentioned before, it is not up to us to produce fruit, but allow the Spirit to produce fruit through us. it is a long process, and pruning (which make a tree much more abundant) can be very painful. it is not very entertaining.

it is not that i do not believe in signs and wonders. it is that i do not need signs and wonders to believe.
---aka on 9/24/10




JamesL,

2 Peter 1: 1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

---For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


1Peter, --to the strangers scattered (JEWS) -----

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


James, great explanation. The Bible uses the term salvation not only in many senses, but in many tenses. The verb to save appears in every possible tense of the Grk language. There is a sense in which we were saved (from the foundation of the world), we are saved (by being in a justified state): we are being saved (by being sanctified or made holy): and we will be saved (experience the consumation of our redemption in heaven). The Bible speaks of salvation in terms of past, present and future. I tried to tell Jack that this people were touched by the Spirit of God, at Pentecost, and when they heard the gospel of Christ through Peter they were cut through the heart and ask, what must they do? and all they had to do was to repent and be baptized.
---MarkV. on 9/24/10


#1
Mark E:
//There is nothing anywhere to indicate that anyone is actually "saved", except trust in the Word and character of God.//

I agree with you 100%. That's why I usually use the word "saved" in quotation marks. Salvation is not only three tenses, as most would believe. Paul uses "saved" in Romans 5:10 when he speaks of the resurrection. He also uses "saved" in Romans 10:1-20, referring to our inheritance, which is obtained through suffering (8:16-17). This is the Abrahamic Covenant, as Kathr has correctly pointed out. This is also the gospel to the Gentiles, which, as Michael E has correctly poited out, was hidden until now.
---James_L on 9/23/10


#2
The inheritance, however, is not entrance into heaven, for no amount of suffering can gain heaven for us. That is the Adamic Covenant (Genesis 3:15), which is by faith alone. The inheritance (salvation) was for the Jews. But, one cannot receive an inheritance if he is not one of God's children (by faith). That's what Paul meant in Rom 10:1-4 when He said he disired for their "salvation". But they were trying to work their way into heaven, so they rejected their inheritance also. Genitles have been grafted into something which was for the Jews. They were chosen (elect) for the inheritance, but we are the recipients now. But they will be grafted back in when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom 11:12-27)
---James_L on 9/23/10


#2
In the three other usages of this Greek word, Simeon is "righteous" (Stong's #1342), the kind that Paul says only comes through faith (Romans 4:22, Strong's #1343, noun of #1342). In the other two (Acts 8:2, 22:12), the subjects are clearly Christian (justified through faith ALONE).

These men were "living in Jerusalem" from passover to Pentecost, and were part of the crowd who yelled out "crucify him". They were justified by faith in the Messiah, but got caught up by the religious leaders. Peter says "this Jesus, who YOU crucified." The offer was not justification, but forgiveness. They must repent (change their mind) about Jesus, and devote themselves to Him by being baptized in His name.
---James_L on 9/23/10




#1
Kathr,
No, I'm not saying that Peter was merely temporally forgiven. If you read Acts 2:5 "there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation."

Of particular interest should be the word "devout". The greek word used to describe these men was used only three other times in the NT. Other words are translated "devout", but the others denote outward devotion. This word (#2126 if you use any sudy helps numbered to Strong's system) is the only one which means "inwardly pious". It is used only in Luke 2:25 (Simeon in the temple), Acts 2:5 (these devout Jews), Acts 8:2 (the men who carried Stephen's body away), and Acts 22:12 (Ananias, who laid hands on Paul to regain his sight).
---James_L on 9/23/10


//Where do you read "the necessity to believe in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation" in 1 Cor 15? ---Mark_Eaton on 9/23/10//

1 Cor.15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL(my gospel Rom 2:16, 16,25 2 TIM 2:8) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, 2 BY WHICH YE ARE SAVED, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,(from the ascended Christ)how that Christ DIED for our sins according to the scriptures,4 And that he was BURIED, and that he ROSE again the third day according to the scriptures:

Show me scripture like this other than the Pauline epistles?
---michael_e on 9/23/10


JamesL:

There is nothing anywhere to indicate that anyone is actually "saved", except trust in the Word and character of God.

The Apostle Paul describes the term "salvation" as an action completed in the past, as something being currently performed for you, and as an event completed in the future. Which would you like to use in this discussion?

I agree that these tenses are correct. Salvation is a on-going process, completed on our behalf by Christ at Calvary which we will finally receive on the Day of the Lord.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/23/10


Now where do you read in "repent and be baptised",the necessity to believe in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation, as we are told by our apostle in 1Cor 15.
---michael_e on 9/22/10

I think the premise of your quesiton is flawed.

Where do you read "the necessity to believe in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation" in 1 Cor 15?

The main subject of the 1 Cor 15 is resurrection. The first eleven verses describe the gospel that Paul preached to the Corinthians. This is the entirety of the gospel of Jesus Christ in a nutshell. The rest of the chapter deals with resurrection, of Jesus first and of the believer second.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/23/10


1 Peter 1:1-2

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So JamesL, are you stating Peter was only TEMPORALLY forgiven?

Get Out!!!!

May I ask what denomination you are preaching here? or are you another do it yourself---er, Cherry-picking what you want and don't to believe?
---kathr4453 on 9/23/10


Hum, now I can see the blood of bulls and goats as being a temporal COVERING never took away or forgave sin , but what about what Jesus told His disciples at the last supper before going to the cross? Are you saying they were IGNORANT of this on Pentecost. Do you not know what Pentecost means? It was in the OT a day when ALL DEBTS WERE PAID!!!! Those 50 days from the time Jesus rose until He sent the Holy Spirit is most significant to Jews.
Luke 22:20, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. FORGIVNESS of sin through the blood of Christ is not temporal, but ETERNAL.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/10


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// Michael_e seems to think there is some great mystery in Gentiles being saved. THAT was never a mystery kept secret.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time(WHAT TIME) ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
---kathr4453 on 9/23/10//
Show me some prophesy that there would be a man sent to the gentiles with the boC ministry.
It isn't mentioned in the OT, the 4 gospels, the book of acts or the Jewish epistles of Peter, Jame's, John or Jude.
---michael_e on 9/23/10


JamesL Gentiles were grafted into the ROOT, I believe the ROOT is the Abrahamic Covenant...in thee all families of the earth will be blessed. Michael_e seems to think there is some great mystery in Gentiles being saved. THAT was never a mystery kept secret.

Paul tells us the promise of the SPIRIT coming on the Gentiles and quotes what God told Abraham.

God never made a NEW Mysterious Covenant with Gentiles only Paul knew about. Sounds like Joseph Smith stuff!

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
---kathr4453 on 9/23/10


//Mark_Eaton on 9/22/10Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".//
(everyone of you sounds better)

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(simple why they needed to repent, they had murdered their messiah)

Now where do you read in "repent and be baptised",the necessity to believe in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation, as we are told by our apostle in 1Cor 15.
---michael_e on 9/22/10


Michael E, Mark Easton, Kathr (my good friend),

There is nothing in Acts 2 that would indicate anyone was "saved" (justified?) on the day of Pentecost. The reason is that those men were already justified by faith. The offer was forgiveness (temporal) and the gift of the Holy Spirit in fulfillment of prophesy.

Also, Kathr, gentiles were not grafted into the offer of justification, but into the inheritance. Rahab the harlot was a gentile, and was just as "saved" as any Jew. That was almost a thousand years before gentiles were grafted in. You have too narrow of a view of salvation.
---James_L on 9/22/10


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Reading out of your own Bible, where do you see in these passages that the belief in the death, burial and resurrection is necessary for salvation?
---michael_e on 9/22/10

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

What exactly do you think they were repenting of? Peter did not say "repent of your sins and be baptised" so what did Peter want them to repent of?

To these men, it was to repent of the death and shed blood of Jesus. God had raised Jesus from the dead and had made Him both Lord and Christ and these men had put Jesus to death.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/22/10


//---Mark_Eaton on 9/22/10 I hate to interject, but what Bible are you reading? Peter preached this himself at Pentecost:
Acts 2:23-24 "this Man (Jesus), delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power"//

Reading out of your own Bible, where do you see in these passages that the belief in the death, burial and resurrection is necessary for salvation?
---michael_e on 9/22/10


It is not "a magician" that we are witnessing his identity, but whether or not Jesus is the Son of God. {Son of God is the focus of our attention to miracles and wonders He performed in the Bible accounts.} These signs evidenced that He was who He claim, because no one over history has total authority over all creation. Only God, who He claimed to dwell in Him, and Jesus in his Father fulfilled all miracles at the will and command of the Father, God. {Please note 25% of the gospels accounts spoke of the multitudes that could not recieve Jesus message, because they would not equate his message beyond human reasoning.} 1 Corinthians 12:3 tells us that no man can call Jesus "Lord" except he be born-again by the Holy Ghost.
---Dale on 9/22/10


I am saying belief in the death,burial and resurrection absolutely was not preached as a requirement for salvation at pentecost
(Acts 2:38)
---michael_e on 9/21/10

I hate to interject, but what Bible are you reading? Peter preached this himself at Pentecost:

Acts 2:23-24 "this Man (Jesus), delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power"

Shed blood, death and resurrection.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/22/10


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Acts 2:32-34

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Right from the beginning of Acts Peter and the apostles asked Jesus, are you NOW going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Answer NO, only God knows when. SO with that, are you suggesting Peter disobeyed Jesus and preached the Kingdom anyway?

Where in the earthly Kingdom teachings of Matthew, along with John the Baptist repentance, is there the promise of the Holy Spirit? Paul found John's disciples who hadn't heard of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is forming the Church...
---kathr4453 on 9/22/10


As Messiah/Redeemer Isaiah 53, Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for all the human race not just the Jews and not just the Gentiles.

He was a total sacrifice.

If he died only for the Jews or only for the Gentiles that would have been a partial sacrifice and would cancel out John 3:16 that "God so loved the world." So, the sacrifice of Christ was to be for the sins of the whole world to them that believe (Mark 16:16).

This establishes that Calvary was not for Jews only and not for Gentiles only. one sacrifice for all (Heb 10:12). So an idea of Only Gentiles being saved by the sacrifice/resurrection of Christ is not found in scripture. Salvation is OF THE JEWS!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


Part 2 Please post.

For ten years only Jews from all the 12 tribes were being saved. Thousands were being saved. So, the question comes up that if the Church was totally Jewish for 10 years before Acts 10, and many tens of thousands were saved, how then can the Church be only a Gentile Church? Did the Jews all of a sudden mysteriously get kicked out of the Church? And if so, where is the Scripture that this happened or was prophesied to happen.
Gentiles were added to the Church, and joined to the existing thousands of Jews. Paul shows us this in Romans 11. The Gentiles were grafted INTO SOMETHING and it wasn't something Gentile.
Gentiles are reminded not to be ignorant/high-minded of this fact.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


//kathr4453 on 9/21/10Michael_e, are you saying Christ crucified and risen was NOT preached at Pentecost?//

I am saying belief in the death,burial and resurrection absolutely was not preached as a requirement for salvation at pentecost
(Acts 2:38)
//Are you suggesting Jews are not members of the BOC? I really resent that, and find it to be anti-semitic.//
Paul through revalation from the risen Christ opened salvation to ALL mankind.

//The BOC is called the Church, correct? On the day of Pentecost JEWS were saved, it seems like scripture states 3000 in one day, and after that daily many were added TO THE CHURCH.//
Do you find the BOC or gentiles mentioned here?
---michael_e on 9/21/10


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Michael_e, are you saying Christ crucified and risen was NOT preached at Pentecost?

Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:35-37

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


Paul's Gospel neccesary for becoming a member of the BOC
not mentioned except in the Pauline epistles.


---michael_e on 9/21/1

The BOC is called the Church, correct? On the day of Pentecost JEWS were saved, it seems like scripture states 3000 in one day, and after that daily many were added TO THE CHURCH.

Are you suggesting Jews are not members of the BOC? I really resent that, and find it to be anti-semitic.

Peter talks about a SPIRITUAL habitation, Christ the chief cornerstone (CHURCH)so does Paul almost the same words.
HEBREWS written to JEWS(Paul didn't write) chapter 12 talk about the Church of the First Born, who we are...
Cornelius, Peter a JEW brought into the CHURCH, not earthly Israel!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


//---kathr4453 on 9/21/10//

Paul's Gospel neccesary for becoming a member of the BOC
not mentioned except in the Pauline epistles.

1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand,2 By which also YE ARE SAVED, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---michael_e on 9/21/10


Michael_e, Job believed in the resurrection, so did Jews, except for the Sadducees.
When Paul preached, he told the people, dont take my word for it, search the scriptures to see if Im telling you the truth. WHAT SCRIPTURES would Paul be talking about , The New Testament??? Really!! He was talking about the OT Scriptures. The NEW is revealed in the old. Example: Circumcision the 8th day. The 8th day is the Day Christ rose from the dead, For WHAT REASON?? Ans: ((Coloss 2)) Abraham saw the resurrection in a vision when he sacrificed Isaac. NOW we fully understand these things. All these were shadows/patterns of things to come. Paul is NOT a Joseph Smith making up a NEW Gospel not found in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


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//Exodus 12:21 Matthew 27:35 Matthew 27:50 Mark 15:25 Mark 15:37//

Any mention of dying for your sins, or resurrecting for your life? Rom 5:8
1 cor 15:1-4 etc
---michael_e on 9/19/10


Michael_e...Genesis 3:15 is the GOSPEL. Abel sacrificed BLOOD pointing to Christ. Job sacrificed. The LAW and all were a shadow of things to come. The Lambs slain, the mercy seat, the show bread, etc, etc, etc POINTED to Christ and the Messiah. Colossians along with Hebrews just to name two places, tell us ALL these things were made For Him, and BY Him, and are fulfilled IN HIM, that NOW, HE, Christ, has the Preeminence, Superior to the LAW, the Prophets and OT Priesthood!
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


Luke 21:25-31 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring, Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory...then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable, Behold the fig tree, and all the trees, When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
---micha9344 on 9/19/10


//Exodus 12:21 Matthew 27:35 Matthew 27:50 Mark 15:25 Mark 15:37//

Any mention of dying for your sins, or resurrecting for your life? Rom 5:8
1 cor 15:1-4 etc
---michael_e on 9/19/10


I simply ask you for the salvation plan Christ gave to the Nation of Israel in the four Gospels
---michael_e on 9/17/10

YES absolutely!!

OT PLAN:
Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

GOSPEL:
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him..
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

ASSURANCE:
1 Corinthians 5:7 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
---francis on 9/19/10


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We don't look for sign or wonders.

(1Thess 4:16 [NET])
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

(1Thess 4:17 [NET])
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

(1Thess 4:18 [NET])
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
---Royal on 9/17/10


//John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."---Mark_Eaton on 9/17/10//

I ask you for the salvation plan Christ gave to the NATION of ISRAEL in the four Gospels.
Thanks for answering my question,



---michael_e on 9/17/10


could you elaborate, is there any mention of faith, shedding of blood, cross work or resurrection?
---michael_e on 9/16/10


Again michael_e, Jesus mentions resurrection in John 6..those who eat my flesh and drink my blood HE WILL raise up in teh last day and are those who are crucified with Christ and raised up together with Him.

Now all these things the apostles didn't grasp in all it's fullness until after they were filled with the Holy Spirit. But it's there.

John starts Jesus came full of GRACE and truth. The only Gospel that starts with GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 9/17/10


Can you find salvation in the four gospels?
---michael_e on 9/16/10

Absolutely Michael_e. John 3:16 For God so loved the world He gave His only Begotten son....CROSSWORK not mentioned here? He gave Him upon a Cross to die for our sin.

The born Again spirit of the promise of the New Covenant Nicodemus should have known about.

John said Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world....NO CROSS WORK here?

Michael_e are you saying you are saved apart from the lamb of God, shed blood and spirit?

John is the most wonderful Gospel of GRACE and totally compliments all Paul taught!
---kathr4453 on 9/17/10


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I simply ask you for the salvation plan Christ gave to the Nation of Israel in the four Gospels
---michael_e on 9/17/10

Have you read John 3?

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is the plan of salvation for the entire WORLD. You must be born again. It does not get any more complicated than that.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/17/10


If you don't believe in signs and wonders, what methods are using to know you're on the right track?

Good question
A: Use the SANCTUARY PLAN
B: Use the prophecies of daniel and revealation as the intersect with the sanctuary plan.
---francis on 9/17/10


//What is your point?
Mark_Eaton on 9/17/10//

My point is simple, I simply ask you for the salvation plan Christ gave to the Nation of Israel in the four Gospels, you gave me Nicodemus,a master of Israel, who Jesus said should have known these things.
Should he have known these things had he been a gentile?
Is what He tells this Mater of Israel a generic plan of salvation?
Preposterous. Simply preposterous
---michael_e on 9/17/10


Mark E. **So, nothing written in the Gospels applies to you? Nothing that Jesus said or did applies to you?

Preposterous. Simply preposterous.**

This where the pre-trib rapture comes from. Dispensationalism teaches that Israel is distinct from the church, therefore, the church needs to be raptured so God can deal with Israel again. Consequently, Jesus came to the Jews, and the Gospels record that. The thinking is that the gospels do not relate to the church but to Israel.

Your response is one reason why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. It is also my response.
---Rod4Him on 9/17/10


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could you elaborate, is there any mention of faith, shedding of blood, cross work or resurrection?
---michael_e on 9/16/10

What is your point?

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He would know best what is required for a person to be saved.

As I have posted in another blog, we know very little of the great work that was done on calvary and very little of the great work that is done in our lives when we accept the Salvation of the Lord. This is His work, His plan, His glory. We place our faith in the Lord to do the work and to keep us saved.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/17/10


(John 3 is the most concise place for Jesus telling Nicodemus about salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/10)

could you elaborate, is there any mention of faith, shedding of blood, cross work or resurrection?
---michael_e on 9/16/10


Can you find salvation in the four gospels?
---michael_e on 9/16/10

John 3 is the most concise place for Jesus telling Nicodemus about salvation.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/10


// I have never heard of anyone dismissing the words of Jesus and following only the Apostolic epistles.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/10 //
I do not dismiss The gospels(Rom 15:4) I read that Jesus speaks to maybe two gentiles in his earthly ministry.
Can you find salvation in the four gospels?
Believing in the death, burial and resurrection.

2 Cor 5:16 Heb.6:1
---michael_e on 9/16/10


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I see Matt-Jn under Law, not being NT (Heb 9:16,17)
I see Christ in his earthly ministry dealing mainly with the nation of Israel( Mt.15:24 Jn 1:11: Rom 15:8)
---michael_e on 9/14/10

Wow...wow...wow.

So, nothing written in the Gospels applies to you? Nothing that Jesus said or did applies to you?

Preposterous. Simply preposterous.

I have never, ever, heard anything like this. Many people follow ONLY the words of Jesus and dismiss the Apostolic writings. I have never heard of anyone dismissing the words of Jesus and following only the Apostolic epistles.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/10


//If you interpret Scripture in this manner very little of the NT will apply to you, because it is written to other people/churches.//

I see Matt-Jn under Law, not being NT (Heb 9:16,17)
I see Christ in his earthly ministry dealing mainly with the nation of Israel( Mt.15:24 Jn 1:11: Rom 15:8)


I have 13 epistles revealed to the apostle paul in the NT that apply to me and you directly as part of the boC.
---michael_e on 9/14/10


SIGNS and WONDERS!

When I look at the SIGNS of someone being a FALSE TEACHER, I often WONDER why people follow them.

I person wants to be on and stay on the right track THEY MUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS FOUND IN 2 TIMOTHY 2:14-19 ALONG WITH FOLLOWING THE EXAMPLE FOUND IN ACTS 17:11.
---Rob on 9/14/10


4And Jesus answered and said unto THEM
---michael_e on 9/13/10

If you interpret Scripture in this manner very little of the NT will apply to you, because it is written to other people/churches.

What about Jesus discussion with Nicodemus in John 3? Does what Jesus say to him only apply to Nicodemus or does it apply to all men?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/14/10


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//Jesus told us plainly in Matt 24//

I believe the disciples who Jesus was talking to were disciples for Israel's earthly kingdom program,
Paul's language is entirely different

Matt. 24:' 1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him... . 2 And Jesus said unto THEM,... 3.And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the DICIPLES came unto him privately, saying, Tell US when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto THEM
---michael_e on 9/13/10


//You interpret Scriptures the way you seem fit, and could care less what the first generation of Christians (those were closer to the Apostles in time, culture, and language) handle Scriptures//
when did you meet these 1st generation christians?
We should go more what the Bible says and less about what we read in commentaries, written by men that other men call "gifted"

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture(plus commentaries, or the Internet?) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God gave us his book and most of us the ability to read it.
---michael_e on 9/13/10


"Sad, some people put more faith in commentaries and internet history lessons than the bible." (michael e)

And most, like you, are too arrogant to believe that those who God gifted with the gift of teaching (the successors of the Holy Apostles) can enlighten you, because you believe that you "rightly divide" Holy Scriptures and thus have no need for the Church (cf. Acts 8:26-40). You interpret Scriptures the way you seem fit, and could care less what the first generation of Christians (those were closer to the Apostles in time, culture, and language) handle Scriptures.

Sadly, many Christians have this "only concern me and God! What I say or interpret Scriptures matters" attitude.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/13/10


And they should shy away from signs, the signs and wonders programs did very little good for the Nation of Israel.
---michael_e on 9/13/10

Sorry, I must disagree with you.

Jesus told us plainly in Matt 24 what signs to look when He returns. Paul also described signs to the Corinthian and Thessalonian churches. Peter gave signs for the day of the Lord, so did John, and so did Jude.

They can't all have it wrong!
---Mark_Eaton on 9/13/10


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//This is the Scripture that causes most Christians to shy away from using or looking for signs.
Unfortunately, most Christians are wrong in their interpretation.//(Couldn't agrre more)

And they should shy away from signs, the signs and wonders programs did very little good for the Nation of Israel.

In this present dispensation:
2 Cor. 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
---michael_e on 9/13/10


Sad, some people put more faith in commentaries and internet history lessons than the bible.
---michael_e on 9/13/10


\\I use the bible rightly divided
---michael_e on 9/11/1\\

And if we wonder that you really are "using the bible rightly divided," all we have to do is ask you, and you'll tell us and remove all doubts.

Right, michael_e?

mima--seems that Someone greater than any of us who posts to these blogs said, "An even and perverse generation seeks after signs....."
---Cluny on 9/13/10


1 Cor.1: 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom

I use the bible rightly divided
---michael_e on 9/11/10

This is the Scripture that causes most Christians to shy away from using or looking for signs.

Unfortunately, most Christians are wrong in their interpretation. The prior verse tells us what the signs refer to:

1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe"

The Jews look for signs to KNOW God. We as believers know God thru Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/13/10


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1 Cor.1: 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom

I use the bible rightly divided
---michael_e on 9/11/10


2 THESSALONIAN 2:9 Even him,whose coming after the working of satan with all power and signs lying wonders
2:10 And with all deceivableness of righteousness in them that perish ,because they received not the love of the truth that they might be save
---RICHARD on 8/15/10


\\The fruit of the Spirit requires "spiritual eyes" to see.
---Linda on 6/29/10\\

This is basically the same thing I said about seeing into another person's heart.

Because WHAT are the fruits of the Spirit? As you yourself pointed out, those that are listed in Gal 5 are NOT things that can be seen by the naked mortal eye.
---Cluny on 6/30/10


//Is, of course, is assuming that you watch someone 24 hours a day....//

True, however, there are some Christians who see one infraction of what they believe to be sin and head off to the judge's chambers to determine the sentence. I "grew up" in that kind of religiosity and was always the preacher's sermon on Sunday morning because of something I couldn't even find in the Bible to be sin. In regards to the heart, we are not required to produce the fruit. We bear the fruit through relationship and growth of the tree. While there are some trees who seem to bear fruit very quickly, there are others who take years. The fruit of the Spirit requires "spiritual eyes" to see.
---Linda on 6/29/10


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//Is, of course, is assuming that you watch someone 24 hours a day....//

True, however, there are some Christians who see one infraction of what they believe to be sin and head off to the judge's chambers to determine the sentence. I "grew up" in that kind of religiosity and was always the preacher's sermon on Sunday morning because of something I couldn't even find in the Bible to be sin. In regards to the heart, we are not required to produce the fruit. We bear the fruit through relationship and growth of the tree. While there are some trees who seem to bear fruit very quickly, there are others who take years. The fruit of the Spirit requires "spiritual eyes" to see.
---Linda on 6/29/10


There is one sure fire way to get the attention of everybody you never wanted the attention of....become a Christian. Nothing gets you more watched than that, and most often by those who don't think God is able to complete what He has begun so they think they have to do it.
---LindaS on 6/29/10


\\As a matter of fact, if they don't see that "sign" or "evidence" they will accuse the newborn of not really being born again\\

Is, of course, is assuming that you watch someone 24 hours a day and have been granted the ability to see into his heart and know his motivations.

It's a rare gift.

There's an old Christian saying: Even if you catch your neighbor in the very act of fornication, don't judge him, because your senses might have been deceived.
---Cluny on 6/29/10


methods? to know I'm on the right track?

Well it's HIS presence in my life that allows me to believe He is with me. His answering of my prayers. "I will counsel you with mine eye upon you" and that has come true for me a thousand times over.

His word - that's another method that I am on the right track. I follow and obey His Word. I forgive people. I turn the other cheek, I pray for my enemies. I proclaim the Gospel to people.

His responses back to me, showering me with Llquid Love, filling me with His presence, His anointing, etc., Need i go on?
---Donna5535 on 6/29/10


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The following post is so true that it needs to be repeated.
"Most christians expect the "sign" of a changed life as soon as someone is born again. As a matter of fact, if they don't see that "sign" or "evidence" they will accuse the newborn of not really being born again. This is more common than people looking for other signs...and extremely detrimental to the new believer."
---Linda on 6/28/10
---mima on 6/29/10


\\After witnessing to two different people on Saturday one came to church yesterday. At the altar call this person answered and told of my witnessing to them. Later after I had time to absorb all of this I thought, here is a sign that what I did was correct. \\

mima, why is the one who didn't come to church or walk down the aisle a sign that what you did was wrong?
---Cluny on 6/29/10


What is a sign?

What is a wonder?

God's signs and wonders, being performed through the apostles and christians, prove the existance of God - not to the believer, but to the unbeliever.

There are signs and wonders that are not performed by godly persons, but are visual confirmation of endtime events. For instance, what would be classified as a wonder? A plane or helicopter? To a person living 2,000 years ago that would definately be classified as a wonder.
---Steveng on 6/28/10


Most christians expect the "sign" of a changed life as soon as someone is born again. As a matter of fact, if they don't see that "sign" or "evidence" they will accuse the newborn of not really being born again. This is more common than people looking for other signs...and extremely detrimental to the new believer.
---Linda on 6/28/10


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Have you no regard for the "loaf" sent by God (the bread of life)? We are simply to TRUST (have "faith") because of what God has already done/provided/given ("loaves")

John 6:26
"not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves".

Some people have only come to Christ because they have "SEEN" great signs, textbooks of wisdom, and can marvel at "wonders", but Jesus seeks those who don't need to see.

John 20:29
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe".

Godliness is about pursuing The Lord as your 'dream of dreams' (a "dream of dreams" is not "seen", but dreamt in the heart).
---more_excellent_way on 6/28/10


Yesterday I had a rare experience. After witnessing to two different people on Saturday one came to church yesterday. At the altar call this person answered and told of my witnessing to them. Later after I had time to absorb all of this I thought, here is a sign that what I did was correct. Many times you see me writing about a person's countenance changing, well in actuality that also is a sign, so the question arises in my mind do I look for signs, I think I do.

I have also had experience while witnessing of having the Holy Spirit literally go before me. The reason I know this is because people call out to me before I get to them by saying such things as, please come and talk to me I am lost and I am scared, or I want to be saved.
---mima on 6/28/10


Are you saying you're looking for signs and wonders for knowing you're on the right track, mima?
---Cluny on 6/28/10


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