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Explain Matthew 5:17-18

Does Matthew 5:17-18 say that Jesus demands Christians follow Old Testament law completely to the smallest possible point?

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 ---Donna on 7/8/10
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"Clean/Unclean" was known(Gen.7:1-9)800 yrs before the Mosaic law. It would then be wise for all to consider Jer.66:15-17,"For, behold the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots ("angels" see Ps.68:17) to render his anger with fury...and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They... eating swine's flesh, and the abomination (unclean animals, fish and birds Lev.11:2-23),and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD." The LORD here is Jesus, who at His second Coming says He is going to do this! No wonder Peter 40 years after the cross said he had never eaten anything unclean! Acts 10:14.
---Ernest_1 on 7/14/10


It is Christ's desire for His people to be clean and holy in word,thought and deed. In 1 Peter 1:15-16(NIV) "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." Peter was the one who admitted he had never eaten anything unclean(Acts 10:14) and here he is quoting from Leviticus 11:44 in relationship to what God wanted His people to eat. Our Creator never wanted His people to be garbage bins for the carcasses of dead animals in Eden and when he allowed them to eat animals they already knew what was clean and unclean.
---Ernest_1 on 7/14/10


Micha9344 on 7/13/10
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, WHICH GOD HATH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:5 For it is SANCTIFIED BY THE WORD OF GOD and prayer.

KEY PHRASES:WHICH GOD HATH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED
For it is SANCTIFIED BY THE WORD OF GOD

Find ONE place where GOD'S WORD lists swine as a meat created or SANCTIFIED to be received / eaten,

I DARE YOU
---francis on 7/13/10


Francis: What will the world be convicted of when he returns? John16:9 "of sin because they believe not on me".
Haz27 on 7/13

What you have failed to understand, is that believing in jesus is not just saying you know his name and understand his passion. believers OBEY HIM.
It seems to me that you have obedience issues, and that is solvable:

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

---francis on 7/13/10


Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

There are people who eat swine before Jesus died, surely they will not be saved. There are those who reject the sabbath before jesus died they too will not be saved. Both are considered a sin in the bible.

Is justice served if some people go to the lake of fire for eating swine, and not keeping the sabbath, while others who did the same thing after Jesus died got to enjoy eternity?

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
---francis on 7/13/10




lit.Gk: "Think not that I came to undo the law or Prophets: I came not to undo the law, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one mandate or one point will not fail from the law, until all happen." Mt.5:17,18. Some people think Jesus came to "add" to the old testament laws, or else destroy the law and promote liberal lawlessness, which is false. Jesus did not come to reestablish the old testament law which were already being practiced at his arrival upon earth. Nor did Jesus come to establish anarchy, but instead he came as the fulfillment of the law, and now he has given us his New Laws and New Commandments and New Testament and New Covenant which is written in his blood.
---Eloy on 7/14/10


Lee: Why did you change your name?

"what would Jesus have said and what would Paul have said?"

Why speculate over what they would have said? Jesus DID say to keep the Commandments. You claim that Paul DID say NOT to keep the Commandments. When asked if you choose Paul over Jesus, you said "yes"! Did you really mean that? Paul is NOT your God, Jesus is.
---jerry6593 on 7/14/10


Jerry (and his kind) like to quote

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

But those that truly love Jesus possesses a totally different kind of mind.

1Co 2:16 For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

If olde Ellen could speak from the flames would she not advise us to seek the grace offered to us in Christ and not try to be own savior by observing laws that are strictly Jewish?
---leej on 7/14/10


no, Jesus did not say that we follow the law but He said that He will come to fulfill the law that is about the sacrifice of animals. in Hebrew it is said Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, all of the things that the law contains is about Jesus , it is a shadow actually of the things to come which is fulfilled in the new testament when Jesus came and sacrifice His life to die on the cross to shed his blood for us in order for us to have forgiveness. if we still follow the law today then we are insulting the fulfillment of the law who is JEsus Christ.
---judy_yano on 7/13/10


Francis, it is clearly evident you reject what is written in Galatians Chapter Two and Galatians Chapter Three.
---Rob on 7/13/10




Jerry -//If there is an "apparent" conflict between Jesus' words and Paul's, why do you choose Paul over Jesus? Is Paul your god?

Yes, I can easily see why Adventists have problems with Paul as he did not preach obedience to Jewish laws - a decision made at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) that Adventists reject as they still insist upon cherry picked OT laws not found within the New Covenant.

One need understand that the Old Covenant dispensation became obsolete and passed away with the destruction of the Jewish temple 70 a.d. (Hebrew 8:13)

It is simply a matter of proper exegestics!

For instance if the Jew had asked Jesus if he must be circumcised what would Jesus have said and what would Paul have said?
---leej on 7/13/10


Did Paul preach that one need observe the Levitical food laws?

Ro 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Romans 14:2-3 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not, and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

So sorry Francis, but it is rather obvious that the Levitical food laws were not imposed on the Christian church.

So go ahead and eat that pork bacon for breakfast but like all meats, cook it first.
---leej on 7/13/10


Find ONE verse where the WORD OF GOD sanctifies anything unclean.--francis on 7/13/10
1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the WORD OF GOD and prayer.
Thanks for answering your own request.
I didn't say Peter ate in Acts 10.(thou shalt not bear false witness)
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
Maybe you should also show where Matt 15 says 'Gentile'.
---micha9344 on 7/13/10


Francis: What will the world be convicted of when he returns? John16:9 "of sin because they believe not on me".

You quote me verses relating to those who reject God's salvation and rely on works of the law. Those scriptures are not referring to believers. You have said that we are saved by grace and yet you always mix this with the law of sin and death. You cant be under both law and grace. God tells us that I wish you were hot or cold but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth.
---Haz27 on 7/13/10


micha9344
Show me the verse that says clean or unclean in matthew 15 that say unclean Matt 15:17 ( UNWASHED HANDS)
Show me the verse where peter ate Acts 10:10-16 ( NOT SO LORD)
Show me where paul endorsed unclean Rom 14:14
MEAT AND HERBS not clean and unclean)
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, WHICH GOD HATH CREATED TO BE EATEN, to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the WORD OF GOD and prayer.

Find ONE verse where the WORD OF GOD sanctifies anything unclean.
---francis on 7/13/10


It was about clean and unclean.
Jesus went to the root.
Pharisees thought the unclean hands made what you ate unclean.
Jesus turned this around-- not what goes in, but what comes out of the mouth.
Matt 15:17 Whatsoever enters
Mark 7:15 Nothing from without a man
Mark 7:19 purging all meats
And nothing was said about touching Gentiles, you really need to stop inputting your ideas into scripture.
James furthurs this. James 3:5-10
God confirms it to Peter. Acts 10:10-16
Peter ate, Paul enforced. Gal 2:12-14
Paul agreed: Rom 14:14
You say Gentiles were unclean, but God has cleansed, but not meats?
---micha9344 on 7/13/10


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For the dietary law, Jesus filled the meaning of it for us by His answer in Matt 15:11, that what goes into the mouth does not defile a person. We can eat anything.
Mark_Eaton on 7/13/10

CORRECTION:
Matthew 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but TO EAT WITH UNWASHED HANDS defileth not a man.

Jesus NEVER EVER said you cna eat anything
iN CONTEXT THIS IS not ABOUT CLEAN AND UNCLEAN

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

It surely ONLY about hanswashing, a TRADITION of washing hand after touching Gentiles.
---francis on 7/13/10


For some reason Francis just doesn't get it.
---Rob on 7/12/10
What exactly do you think I do not get?
---francis on 7/13/10


Part 1 --- please continue

Does Matthew 5:17-18 say that Jesus demands Christians follow Old Testament law completely to the smallest possible point?
---francis on 7/12/10

Let us examine your list.

The ten commandments. I see nothing in the NT that says we are not to follow these.

For the dietary law, Jesus filled the meaning of it for us by His answer in Matt 15:11, that what goes into the mouth does not defile a person. We can eat anything.

You have answered your own question about the earthly sanctuary laws but I must point out that we have no need for an earthly sanctuary, Christ is our sacrifice.

The law of tithe, I see nothing in the NT that says we are not to follow this.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/10


Jerry, you have a real problem with manners?
Is Paul your god?
is this the way you were taught by your denomination? is your heart so hardened that you cannot answer any other way?
---Dan on 7/13/10


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Francis: you claim a Christian's failure to comply with 10 commandments deserves death. -Haz27 on 7/13/10

No I did not claim that. God said it.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
---francis on 7/13/10


AMEN leej and aka joseph.

aka joseph, what you shared is the very same thing Christ went through in Luke 13:10-16, and Luke 14:1-4.

For some reason Francis just doesn't get it.
---Rob on 7/12/10


aka.joseph
Good question.
Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him,

Matthew 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?


I would do ALL i could to get you to your father as fast as posible, and if you needed food, i would provide as much as posible.That would be in keeping with the spirit of the sabbath.

How much more important is a man than a sheep?
---Francis on 7/13/10


leej on 7/12/10

Paul surely did not preach against the Ten commandments.
HERE ARE ALL TEN:
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: ( thou shal not steal)
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another,
Galatians 5:21 murders..that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3 covetousness, let it not be once named among you,
1 Corinthians 6:9 neither idolaters, nor adulterers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these, blasphemy,
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

the ten commandments.
---francis on 7/13/10


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Francis: you claim a Christian's failure to comply with 10 commandments deserves death. Seems that under your works doctrine the thief on cross next to Jesus did well to be saved just before dying. He didn't have to live for years after trying to do works as certainty of salvation. Whereas you are having to do years of works hoping to achieve what that thief did by believing on Jesus. But isn't what the thief did supposed to be the gospel anyway, believe on Jesus for salvation?

And what will the world be convicted of when he returns? John16:9 "of sin because they believe not on me". (I see no 10 commandments here)
Matt5:17,18 Jesus says he comes to fulfill the law, which we all know was done on the cross. It is finished.
---Haz27 on 7/13/10


Lee: "If the Apostle Paul were a legalist, then he certainly would never have written - "

Perhaps you misinterpret Paul's writings, just as Peter predicted (2Pet 3:15, 16). Scripture must agree with all other scripture. If it doesn't, then you have the wrong interpretation. If there is an "apparent" conflict between Jesus' words and Paul's, why do you choose Paul over Jesus? Is Paul your god?
---jerry6593 on 7/13/10


For centuries Christian all believed the Ten Commandments should be kept. It was only when attention was brought to the fact the fourth commandment required the keeping of the seventh day and not the first as was traditionally kept by Christians that any questions were raised about their validity. It seems to be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water! The motive behind keeping any of these commandments must always be Christ's invitation, "If ye love me keep my commandments". For the "born-again" Christian, love and obedience always go hand in hand, that is not legalism!
---Ernest_1 on 7/13/10


Wiile all ten commandments reoccur in the NT, The one law that does not is the Old Covenant eartly sanctuary law. the bible clearly shows a transfer from earthly to heavenly sanctuary services. So the answer is: Obey all except the earthly sanctuary laws.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building,
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
---francis on 7/13/10


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francis -Rom 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And usually we can see that in those that promote a gospel that is different from that which the Apostle Paul preached.

Gal.1:6-7 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Then usually honk the view that you need to obey commandments so you may be your own savior instead of walking by faith in Christ.

Gal. 3:11b "The righteous shall live by faith."
---leej on 7/12/10


Mark_Eaton on 7/12/10
While what you say is true. We have to acknowledge that some laws were nailed to Cross
The the blog question ask: Does Matthew 5:17-18 say that Jesus demands Christians follow Old Testament law completely to the smallest possible point?

What exactly do they mean by OT law?
1: The Ten commandments
2: the dietary laws
3: The law of the earthly sanctuary
4: the Laws of tithe
5: The health laws ( code for cleansing and seperating sick and contaminated)
6: The statutes for building, farming, hunting
7: The statutes concering person dress codes?
---francis on 7/12/10


Francis,

If on a Saturday morning, I pulled up to your house, and said, "My kids and I are on a 4 day trip to see my dad. He is on his death bed. He does not know the Lord, and we would are trying to get there before he dies. I only have no more money for gas. My kids have not eaten in three days. Please, they cannot go on, and my father...he might not make it another day."

Are you gonna say, "No...The Lord says, 'Keep the Sabbath holy!'" or are you going to ask your wife to prepare some food for us and buy a little gas for us to help us on our way?

After 3 months of blogging with you, I think that you would fulfill the whole law and not just obey a part of it.

So, do you understand?
---aka.joseph on 7/12/10


Matthew 5:17-18 doesn't mention Christions?
Jesus had not went to the Cross yet
---michael_e on 7/12/10


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Francis:

This is my understanding of our condition. We are dead men, all of us. Dead to ourselves, Gal 2:20, crucified with Christ and He is living out through us. Our spirit agrees with the Holy Spirit that we are children of God.

Therefore, we must follow all that God says through His Scriptures, not just what Moses wrote. But also what John wrote, what Peter wrote, what Jude wrote, and finally what Paul wrote.

For unless you can determine what is God-breathed Scripture or not, we must believe them all and accept them all as Holy Scripture to be used as 2 Tim 3:16 tells us. In their writings are commandments of God just as real as the ten you prefer.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/10


I truely do understand why so many resist the law of God.

Rom 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God: for it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So many people saying lord, Lord and yet do not what he says.
Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat OUR OWN BREAD, and wearOUR OWNapparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Some want is to be called christian, but could careless about the things of christ. Also, many are decieved.
Decieved people do not know that they are decieved, because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God:it is NOT subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
---francis on 7/12/10


Christians are to follow ALL the commandments, not just the ten you prefer.
Mark_Eaton on 7/12/10

The first commandments says that we are not to have any other God beside jehovah. It is the bases for obeying everything else God says including the dietary laws.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This verse and others tells us that to obey anyone in opposition to God, makes that person our God.
---francis on 7/12/10


Jerry - //By your definition of a legalist, Jesus and ALL His disciples were legalists.

If the Apostle Paul were a legalist, then he certainly would never have written -

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.Romans 7:6

But would have instead insisted upon obedience to all the Mosaic laws including Sabbath observance, dietary laws and all others things held only by the Jewish religion. Things that he did not.

Yes, it is easy to see that the carnal (or natural) mind does not have the capacity to understand things that are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14
---leej on 7/12/10


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If we as christians are not supposed to obey the ten commandments, why does Paul wroite these things
---francis on 7/12/10

Why do you overlook these...

1 Thes 5:12-26 "Appreciate those who labor, live in peace with one another, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone, repay no one evil for evil, rejoice always, pray without ceasing, ..."

Are these commandments any less than the ten you prefer?

What about the "royal law", the two great commandments given by Jesus? Are they less than the ten you prefer?

Christians are to follow ALL the commandments, not just the ten you prefer.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/10


the ten commandments.
---francis on 7/12/10

Keeping the Law is not enough. There must be more to your christian life than that.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/10

Matthew 5:40-41
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

These and other sayings were not just good suggesstions. They were commandments. If we had the chance in our lifetime (of which we all have), are we not subject to these also.

The 'extra mile' is fulfillment of the law with a cherry on top. I am blessed to not be subject to the 10 commandments only.
---aka.joseph on 7/12/10


Mark_Eaton If we as christians are not supposed to obey the ten commandments, why does Paul wroite these things:

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: ( thou shal not steal)
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another,
Galatians 5:21 murders..that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3 covetousness, let it not be once named among you,
1 Corinthians 6:9 neither idolaters, nor adulterers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these, blasphemy,
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

the ten commandments.
---francis on 7/12/10


Lee, ol' buddy. You're back, and with a new name yet (leej). Too bad you still have the same tired anti-Bible rhetoric. By your definition of a legalist, Jesus and ALL His disciples were legalists. Don't you want to be like Jesus?

Rom 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
---jerry6593 on 7/12/10


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Francis:

We are no longer under the Law but we are under grace. Romans 6 clearly teaches us this but legalists have a hard time accepting this because it is too easy, it requires nothing. What they forget is that accepting grace requires a life-change, a surrendering of ourselves to God, a dying to ourselves and letting Christ live through us which is much more difficult than simply obeying the law.

Remember the rich young ruler in Matt 19 who had obeyed the Law since his youth? Why did he go away sad? He lacked one thing and that was to give up everything, all he had, to follow Jesus.

Keeping the Law is not enough. There must be more to your christian life than that.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/10


The 10 commandments will not be in heaven, but the Law of Liberty will.
'Thou shalt not' sounds very negative to me, but love thy Lord thy God and love thy neighbor are positive statements, hence liberty.
---micha9344 on 7/11/10


leej on 7/11/10
I am not advocating salvation by works in any way shape or form. I am advocating a new creation in christ. Have you ever met a christian who worship other gods, makes images to worship, takes Gods name in vain, dishournors his parents, murders, steals, lies, commits adultery, and covets?

When you read galations, how many verses actually refer to the ten commandments, and how many actually refer to circumcision?
WHen you read Hebrews do you see a transfer from ten commandments or transfer from earthly sanctuary to heavenly?

Sin is trangression of the law. IS it a sin not to be circumsized, or is it a sin to covet? and how did yo come to your answer?
---francis on 7/11/10


leej on 7/11/10

OK would you say that Paul was a legalist based on these text?
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: ( thou shal not steal)
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another,
Galatians 5:21 murders..that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3 covetousness, let it not be once named among you,
1 Corinthians 6:9 neither idolaters, nor adulterers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these, blasphemy,
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

the ten commandments.
---francis on 7/11/10


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Well, well, Mr. Theologian!
---catherine on 7/11/10


francis - I am curious if you really have deepseated spiritual problems with what you view as obedience to law.

Are you trying to save yourself by obedience to the law as you conceived of it, or have you yet to discover that both your salvation and walk is by faith and that works of the law are simply a reflection of ones faith? Eph.2:8-10

The righteous live by faith, not by works of the law. Romans 1:17, Gal. 3:11

Is the righteousness you seek in Christ or in your own efforts? 1 Cor.1:30

await your answers.
---leej on 7/11/10


francis - I think what MarkV is referring to is from Galatians -

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Those that honk the law such as sabbath keeping, dietary laws, etc. simply are trying to perfect themselves by the flesh.

Lookie me, Jesus, how rigtheous I have become!!!!! (mocking)
---leej on 7/11/10


, why do you want to go back to be in bondage of the law?
---Mark_V. on 7/11/10
WHICH OF THESE LAWS IF OBEYED PLACES YOU IN BONDAGE?
Do not worship other gods.
Do not worship idols.
Do not misuse God's name.
Keep the Sabbath holy.
Honor your father & mother.
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not covet.

YOU CALL IT BONDAGE, GOD CALLS IT
James 2:12 LAW OF LIBERTY
---francis on 7/11/10


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Francis -//So what about these commandments
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

Go a step higher!

Romans 13:9f The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Those that get weighted down with observing laws are called 'LEGALISTS'. They are the Pharisees of today that stand against the gospel.
---leej on 7/11/10


\\In other words you have told a LIE about God's Holy Word!
---Cluny on 7/10/10
Are you somehow suggesting that(James 2:11) ..He that said, Do not commit adultery, DID NOT ALSO SAY\\

I'm suggesting that you claimed James wrote something he in fact did NOT write.

And I noticed furthermore that you're very selective about the 613 (not 10) commandments.

This separation is NOT one the Bible itself makes, but is actually a fairly recent Protestant distinction.
---Cluny on 7/11/10


pre-marital relations...this is not covered in the 10 Commandments...sin?

There were some German citizens, who harbored Jews and lied when question...this is covered in the 10 Commandments...sin?

To say that we are not bound to the 10 commandments would be to deny its Fulfillment. However, if we are to say that in EVERY situation, our salvation is due to our fulfillment of the 10 Commandments instead of His Fulfillment is spiritual death.
---aka.joseph on 7/11/10


The NT teaches there were two "whole" separate laws, one to be kept, one not to be kept. James 2:10-12 tells of a "whole" law and quotes from the ten commandments. It says we should speak and do them as we will be judged by them. Galatians 5:1-3 speaks of a "whole" law not to be kept by Christians. It involved circumcision, which was not part of the Ten Commandments but the Ceremonial Law. 1 Corinthians 7:19 sums up the situation, "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." We have to have a law to define sin!
Ernest 1
---Ernest on 7/11/10


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Francis, I am afraid that Cluny is correct in his answer to you. What I find interesting is that those who speak like you, are not interested in the whole law, but in one, Saturday Sabbath. If you really cared about the law you would speak of all of the laws, but the accusation is for one law really.
"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, "how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?" the topic is, why do you want to go back to be in bondage of the law? He says, "You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored in vain"
(Gal. 4:9-11).
---Mark_V. on 7/11/10


In other words you have told a LIE about God's Holy Word!
---Cluny on 7/10/10
Are you somehow suggesting that(James 2:11) ..He that said, Do not commit adultery, DID NOT ALSO SAY:
Do not worship other gods.
Do not worship idols.
Do not misuse God's name.
Keep the Sabbath holy.
Honor your father & mother.
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not covet?
---Francis on 7/11/10


Jesus has paid our(sin) debt. I realize you don't believe this Francis but nevertheless it is true!!!!
---mima on 7/9/10

Mima
When say that Jesus has paid your sin debt, by this you are saying that you can now sin without any penalty.

Is this belief not what Jude warned us against in the 4th verse of the book of Jude?

(NIV)
"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
---David on 7/11/10


\\So what about these commandments
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.\\

francis, first off, "the law" means all 613 commandments, not just 10.

Next, you have FALSIFIED the Letter of James by gratuitously inserting the 10 commandments into it, which the true Biblical text DOES NOT GIVE.

In other words you have told a LIE about God's Holy Word!

Therefore, you have brought the curse of Revelation 22:18 down upon yourself.

Repent, francis, ere the day of grace be closed to you.
---Cluny on 7/10/10


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aka.joseph . . . very good, thank you (c:
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/10/10


So what about these commandments
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also,
Do not worship other gods.
Do not worship idols.
Do not misuse God's name.
Keep the Sabbath holy.
Honor your father & mother.
Do not murder.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not covet

Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
---francis on 7/10/10


First one needs to understand that Yeshua is the living law.He is the word that became flesh. He is the living word of God. there for Yeshua was showing how to live God's laws God's way not man's ways.
---mike on 7/10/10


//"Does Matthew 5:17-18 say that Jesus demands Christians follow Old Testament law completely to the smallest possible point?"

No.

I can only agree. Those that adovocate adherent to specific OT laws not mandated in the NT fail to understand that the audience Jesus was addressing was Jewish and that the Old Covenent would soon become obsolete.

If they had asked Jesus if they needed to be physically circumcised, Jesus would have sent them down to the Rabbi for that ordeal.

---lee on 7/10/10


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Josef, that was very well said. All of it. Good work brother.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/10


"josef on 7/9/10
Then what laws / commandments do you follow?" :o)

Francis I follow "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."
Which has " 'made' me free from the law of sin and death". Rom 8:2
So "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith." Rom 3:27
Therefore since the Son has made me free, I am free indeed." John 8:36
"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." Gal 2:19
---josef on 7/9/10


Matthew 5:17,18, speaking to the apostles Jesus was neither giving a new law nor modifying the old, but rather explaining the true significance of the moral content of Moses law and the rest of the Old Testament. The law and the prophets speaks of the entirety of the O. T. Scriptures, not the rabbinical interpretations of them. "Fulfill" speaks of the fulfillment in the same sense that prophecy is fulfilled. Christ was indicating that He is the fulfillment of the law in all its aspects. He fulfilled the moral law by keeping it perfectly. He fulfilled the ceremonial law by being the embodiment of everything the law's types and symbols pointed to. And He fulfilled the judicial law by personifying God's perfect justice (12:18,20).
---Mark_V. on 7/9/10


I realize you don't believe this Francis but nevertheless it is true!!!!
---mima on 7/9/10
Actually I believe 100% that Jesus pain our sin dept. The law required that when we sin, we should die. Jesus took away our death.

But some are saying in grave error, that since Jesus died we no longer live by the ten commandments. They claim that because Jesus died for our sin, we are not to abide by the ten commandments.

That is what i do not believe.
because all ten commandments are reenforced in the NT with an emphasis on love thy neighbour and love God.
---francis on 7/9/10


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When I start working on a puzzle, I notice that each piece has to fit perfectly or the picture won't turn out. When I am done, all pieces fitted perfectly together make up what I saw on the box, what guided me to that picture. No need to tear it back apart, it is complete, the work had been accomplished, the tasks fulfilled the objective, no more work needed, anyone else can see the completed work and admire the picture, there is nothing they need to do to see it. IT IS FINISHED.
Of course, I was just talking about a puzzle.
---micha9344 on 7/9/10


The answer to your question is>>YES! Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 5:17-18, that He had not come to destroy the LAW. That the New Testament gospel is not contrary nor contradictory to the Old Testament law, [Ultimate fulfillment], There is noway I could do this if I weren't saved, of the spiritual intention of the law----The Pharisees were a bunch of religious legalistic devils. Some of your meanest people are church going people. Don't turn your back on them. Yes, Jesus, now, takes the law beyond mere outward observance to the inner spiritual intention of GOD++
---catherine on 7/9/10


If you had $1000 debt at the bank and I ran down and paid it
your debt would have been fulfilled by me. The law(your debt) no longer hangs over you. In fact it has been done away with by my payment and such is the case with Jesus who has paid our(sin) debt. I realize you don't believe this Francis but nevertheless it is true!!!!
---mima on 7/9/10


Jesus came to fulfil the law.
What does fulfil mean?

Does fulfil mean do away with?
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he suffered him.


2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
---francis on 7/9/10


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Jesus came to fulfill the law. It takes The Whole Word of God. The O-Testament(school master) relates to the N-Testament(To Jesus Christ.)
---Lawrence on 7/9/10


Bill,

understanding of spiritual things can only come from the Spirit. ask, seek, knock, obey, rest, forgive, share, study, pray, empathise, repent, meditate, give, reap, sow, heed the wounds, spread the Word, shine the Light, trust, listen, weep, love...

these are all good (and biblical) ways to gain spiritual understanding from God.

If you want to limit yourself to one of those like obedience, then fine. However, God gave me the freedom to understand His Truth in many ways, and no man or Satan is going to snatch that away.

Some look at it as God's commandments to obey, I look at it as a privileged opportunity to serve.
---aka.joseph on 7/9/10


josef on 7/9/10
Then what laws / commandments do you follow?
These are the ones I follow/ obey. Knowing that the first commandment includes anything that God says. If I choose what man says over what God says then man becomes my god.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.
---francis on 7/9/10


"Does Matthew 5:17-18 say that Jesus demands Christians follow Old Testament law completely to the smallest possible point?" No.
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Gal 3:10
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" Rom 3:19
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal 5:18
---josef on 7/9/10


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according to whose understanding???

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
.And lean not on your own understanding,
.In all your ways acknowledge Him,
.And He shall direct your paths."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . (Proverbs 3:5-6)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15) We discover His meaning, as we obey how He rules us in His own peace.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/9/10


you must understand why jesus came in the first place?why?because the human race ,including the jews were not keeping the law,no one can,jesus came that thru the spirit,being born again,we could have the power thru him to obey,God said I will write my commandments in their hearts.
---tom2 on 7/9/10


Matthew 5:17-19 is not talking about the OT law (sanctuary law) But the ten commandments

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALL NOT KILL, and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

very similar passage:
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth ADULTERY:

One speaks abot Thou shall not kill, the other about not commiting adultery.
Surely we are speaking about the ten commandments.

Look at th ebook of hebrews:
Tansfer Earthly to Heavenly sanctuary but never the abolishment of ten commandments.
---francis on 7/8/10


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