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Salvation Through Sacraments

Critique this statement, "The Catholic Church has traditionally held that salvation can be attained only through observance of their sacraments. Therefore and thereby, they have set themselves apart as the only true church."

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 ---mima on 7/9/10
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Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses(paraptoma) and sins(hamartia),
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence(paratoma) might abound. But where sin(hamartia) abounded, grace did much more abound:
francis, there is a slight difference between sins and trespasses in context, but not what your implying.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive , neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses(paraptoma).
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences(paraptoma), and was raised again for our justification.
---micha9344 on 8/25/10


Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins,

TRESSPASSES AND SINS hhmmm
any one see a difference?
Which ones can MAN forgive
and which ones can GOD forgive?

Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
---francis on 8/25/10


2 TIMOTHY 1:9 WHO has saved and called us will a holy calling,NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS,but according to HIS own purpose and grace which was given to us in CHRIST JESUS before time began,
ISAIAH 57:12 I WILL declare thy righteousness,and thy WORK,for they shall not profit thee
ROMAN 3:27 WHERE is the Boasting then? IT is excluded.BY what law,of WORKS? NAY, but by the law of faith.
TITUS 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done,but according to his mercy -----------
---RICHARD on 8/22/10


John 20:23 (New International Version)

23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
---Cluny on 8/20/10


//If you support the truth about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ-you will not know Him-He will not know you.
---char on 8/20/10///

correction-
If you do not support the truth about the death and resurrection...
---char on 8/20/10




\\Man cannot forgive sins\\

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Who's right, francis? You or Jesus?
---Cluny on 8/20/10


Jesus was not just MAN, he was also God
Only God / jesus has the power to forgive sins.
---francis on 8/20/10


Jesus Christ-the last priest after the order of Melchesedec.
We Now can ask forgive from Him and from one another-and be forgiven-repentance into remission (Luke 24:47-49)
No need for priest-Jesus Christ is our High Priest.
Hebrew 5:6-14
As He saith also in another [place], "Thou art a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec."

If you support the truth about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ-you will not know Him-He will not know you.
---char on 8/20/10


Man cannot forgive sins

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee.
---francis on 8/20/10


Francis,

Don't stop there keep reading:

"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

And he arose, and departed to his house.

"But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto Men "
---Ruben on 8/20/10


Man cannot forgive sins

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth.
---francis on 8/20/10




1 Corinthians 5:4 -1 Corinthians 5:5 To
---francis on 8/19/10


Yes, Francis it is God who forgives sins. God use men look at Matthew chapter 9 verse 8 "They Marveled and glorified God who had given such power to Men". Paul himself writes:

All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us
to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, .. and
entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ,
God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, " (2 Corinthians 5:17-20, RSV

Paul says in the same verse you have "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judge already ,"V 3
---Ruben on 8/19/10


Then please tell me what it means?
---Ruben on 8/17/10

Here is how this passaged was used at last one time:

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

When this man was put out of the church because of his sin, it was bound both in heaven and in earth, and when he was accepted back after his act of repentance it was bound in heaven and in earth.

God forgave his sins, his action showed his repentance, the disciples did not forgive his sins.
---francis on 8/19/10


Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

this does not mean that they cold FORGIVE SINS
---francis on 8/17/10

Then please tell me what it means?
---Ruben on 8/17/10


"this does not mean that they cold FORGIVE SINS" (Francis)

On their own authority, no. There is no other way to interpret the text. And besides, that is how the Early Christians interpreted the text. They connected it to the Sacrament (Mystery) of Confession.

Do YOU think you are spiritual superior to those who first read Holy Scriptures? Do YOU think you can interpret Scriptures better than those who were endowed with the gift of teaching and defended the Faith against Christolgical heresies, etc? Do YOU think we should interpret the text the way YOU do and completely ignore what the successors of the Holy Apostles, the early Bishops/Presbyters, Deacons, Monastics, etc said on the manner?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/17/10


Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

this does not mean that they cold FORGIVE SINS
---francis on 8/17/10


The scripture does not say that all 3000 were baptized in one day. It says that 3000 were saved in one day. Baptism followeds salvation so it could take place over the days to follow.
Baptising 3000 people? a big project but one that I would love to see repeated today.
---Bruce5656 on 8/16/10

Bruce,

It seems that they go hand in hand:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

And it looks like the same day:

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized : and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
---Ruben on 8/17/10


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The scripture does not say that all 3000 were baptized in one day. It says that 3000 were saved in one day. Baptism followeds salvation so it could take place over the days to follow.
Baptising 3000 people? a big project but one that I would love to see repeated today.
---Bruce5656 on 8/16/10


However, you bring up a good point, how were 3,000 people baptized in one day? At 300 per hour that would take 10 hours or 50 per minute...interesting. I don't think sprinkling is the answer.
---Rod4Him on 8/14/10

If not sprinkling than what?..maybe they had a water hose:)
---Ruben on 8/16/10


francis * None of the apostles ever heard peoples sin and forgave them their sins

"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

How were they going to remit or retain unless they heard the people sins.(JHN 20:23)

francis* None of the apostles ever claimed
infalibility

Jesus did to them: "He that heareth you heareth me, and he that rejecteth you rejecteth me, and he that rejecteth me rejecteth him that sent me."(LK 10:16)


francis * None of the apostles ever spoke of First communion,

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread"( Acts 2:42)
---Ruben on 8/16/10


3000 people got baptized not sprinkled.

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
120 disciples at that time not 12, are they counting women also.

My question is did peter baptize tham all, or did he have help?
---francis on 8/16/10


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Reuben, there were many Mikvah's in Jerusalem at that time. So, it is very possible and probable that people were "baptizing" themselves as was the method that the culture of the time was used to.

However, you bring up a good point, how were 3,000 people baptized in one day? At 300 per hour that would take 10 hours or 50 per minute...interesting. I don't think sprinkling is the answer.
---Rod4Him on 8/14/10


francis * None of the apostles ever sprinkled water on anyone

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you.. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (acts 2:38-41)

Unless Peter had a large pool in his backyard, it sounds like they were sprinkled.
---Ruben on 8/13/10


None of the apostles ever sprinkled water on anyone
None of the apostles ever prayered to their fallen (dead) comrades
None of the apostles ever had a statue of jesus as a reminder
None of the apostles beleived they went to heaven or hell at death
Many of the apostles were married, and never made it an issue for service
None of the apostles ever heard peoples sin and forgave them their sins
None of the apostles gave last rites to the dead
None of the apostles ever claimed
infalibility
None of the apostles ever spoke of First communion, or comfirmation

Catholic church is truely the mother of Harlots
---francis on 8/13/10


Mima / Cluny: You two are going back and forth with this question.This debate could go on and on. The truth of the matter is: the catholic church is not a real church. I think it is the figment of someone's imagination. They are wrong in their doctrines and theology. Everything is wrong about this religion. Does not matter what we say. God's Word is the yardstick that we use. Sacraments saves no one! This has been known forever! Not to be disrespectful to anyone. If I were catholic, I would get out while I could. Know the truth and the truth will SET YOU FREE! (ST JOHN 8:32) I have a friend who was longtime catholic. She got out several yrs ago. She never read her bible and just believed what she was told. So sad.
---Robyn on 8/13/10


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john 14:6 i am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me. no where does it say by their sacraments. Gal. 1,8 even if we or and angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached-let him be eternally condemned-read gods word for the truth not what people tell you
---LOLITA on 8/13/10


Contrary to what is being said here, the Roman Catholic church was NOT the first church.
---francis on 8/13/10


Well, if they believe this then they had better stop it. Nothing will save you except God's holy Blood.
---catherine on 8/13/10


Robyn * No sacraments anywhere can save anyone. Father has laid out in His Holy Word.

Two Sacraments say :

" Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us "(1 Peter 3:20-21)

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."( Jhn 6:54-55)


Robyn* The catholic church wants to play God and be God. No way will that ever be or ever happen.

And Christ is the Head of the Church, but so many want to cut-off the Head!

"even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body"( Eph 5:23)
---Ruben on 8/12/10


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Very sad,indeed. The catholic church has led many gullible,but otherwise, intelligent people to hell. The catholic church feeds into peoples selfishness and ignorance,thereby, drawing multitudes and mulitudes, closer to Hell and damnation. No sacraments anywhere can save anyone. Only what the Father has laid out in His Holy Word. No other way. The catholic church wants to play God and be God. Again. No way will that ever be or ever happen.
---Robyn on 8/12/10


\\Cluny ... Baptism is much more than the mere pouring on of water, even if it has been blessed beforehand.

There can be no true baptism unless the baptisee has turned to Christ
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/20/10\\

In precisely the same way the Bible is not mere paper and ink.

In both cases, they are more than the sum of their parts, and accomplish spiritual things that cannot be discerned by the senses.
---Cluny on 7/28/10


Post by---Rob on 7/19/10 I believe is correct. I believe once you know the truth you will be set free. Free from doubt, free from worry, free from striving, and most of all free to enjoy your salvation. Recognition at every event in our lives is overseen and directed by God brings total freedom. Oh let us praise the Lord for what he has done!!
---mima on 7/20/10


Cluny ... Baptism is much more than the mere pouring on of water, even if it has been blessed beforehand.

There can be no true baptism unless the baptisee has turned to Christ
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/20/10


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\\The act pouring water on one does not get one save.It would be nice if it was that easy. \\

Not according to the Bible.

"Baptism doth now save us" is in 2 Peter.
---Cluny on 7/19/10


Totally agree with Rob. Unfortunately all too often religions are liken to sports teams. We compete and use our religions to show how much better we are in the eyes of God than others.
---leej on 7/19/10


CLUNY - Coming from the BIBLE and only the BIBLE.Baptism come out of the Old Tesament ceremonial laws. NUMBERS 8:6 -7 EXODUS 30:17-20 ( having are sin wash away ) This is why JESUS was baptize because he was a high priest.The act is out ward sign of what CHRIST did for the for the elect. JOHN 1:7 ---"and the blood of JESUS CHRIST HIS SON HAS CLEANETH US from all sin' (CHRIST DID THE WORK) The act pouring water on one does not get one save.It would be nice if it was that easy. READ JOHN 3 EZEKIEL 36:24-28 This IS to short to get in to all of this.
---RICHARD on 7/19/10


I am a person who seeks to know God's Truth, even though I may stand alone in this. I believe what is written in John 8:31-32.

I also believe people are being held CAPTIVE and in BONDAGE by the religous teachings and traditions of the Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and other religions.

Being a CHRISTIAN has absolutely nothing to do with being RELIGOUS, and everything to do with HAVING A PERSONAL AND INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH CHRIST, AND CHRIST ALONE.

People need to know what it really means to abide in CHRIST and not the ways,traditions, or religions of men.
---Rob on 7/19/10


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\\\\I would like to ask you what are the reason(s) the Catholic and Orthodox Churches split.\\

Book have been written about this. It's not something that can be discussed in 125 words.
---Cluny on 7/18/10\\

This came out sharper than I intended. You might try Timothy Ware's book THE ORTHODOX CHURCH (now known as Metropolitan Kallistos).

***TITUS 3:5 - NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE ,but according to his mercy he save us,by the washing of regnration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.**

Which verse refers to the Sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation.

It's GOD that works through the Sacraments, not man.
---Cluny on 7/19/10


TITUS 3:5 - NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE ,but according to his mercy he save us,by the washing of regnration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
2 TIMOTHY 1:9 - Who halt saved us,and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace,which was given to us before the world began.
---Richard on 7/18/10


\\I would like to ask you what are the reason(s) the Catholic and Orthodox Churches split.\\

Book have been written about this. It's not something that can be discussed in 125 words.
---Cluny on 7/18/10


Cluny, I am not a Protestant. Also I no longer allow myself to be called or classified as a Protestant. I am a Christian.

Cluny, believe it or not, I am in total agreement with you on some of the things you have said about Protestants.

I would like to ask you what are the reason(s) the Catholic and Orthodox Churches split.
---Rob on 7/18/10


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\\I guess this explains why there is very little difference between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.
---Rob on 7/16/10\\

And until Protestants split away from the Roman Church in 1525 or so, they were one church, too.

So, since Protestants were part of Rome for over 1500 years, that why there's even LESS difference between Prots and Roman Catholics than the latter and Orthodox.

It's significant that the Protestant reformation stopped short at the borders of Orthodox countries, since the Reformation itself is the result of the accumulated mistakes the Roman Church made after she split from Orthodoxy.
---Cluny on 7/16/10


\\The answer to your question is SOME JEWISH SCRIBES and not some Orthodox Council of Men or Monks in a Monast\\

Do you really think that Jewish Scribes in Ethiopia copied the Gerima Gospels?

Sorry, but there are too many ancient biblical mss in too many Christian monasteries to support your claim that Jewish scribes kept on copying the NT for one and a half millennia until the invention of the printing press.
---Cluny on 7/16/10


Rob:

While it was Jewish scribes who copied the Old Testament in Old Testament times, who
copied the New Testament after it was written? Certainly not Jewish scribes - they would much rather have burned it rather than copy it.

Also, please explain just HOW those statements of Cluny's were self-contradictory? I didn't notice any contradiction.
---StrongAxe on 7/16/10


Cluny, to answer your question "Who do I think kept copying the Bible for centuries until the invention of the printing press?

The answer to your question is SOME JEWISH SCRIBES and not some Orthodox Council of Men or Monks in a Monastary!!!

Cluny, whether you believe it or not, there were some Jews who accepted CHRIST as their LORD, MESSIAH, KING, and SAVIOR. Check the SCRIPTURES and Check BIBLE HISTORY for yourself.
---Rob on 7/16/10


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Cluny, will you please explain why some of your comments on these blogs contradict themselves?

On 7/9/10 you wrote "The One God Jesus name Church is founded on the day od Pentecost. None before None after. That's the one I'm a member of".

"The only other one here so far is Ignatius. The rest of the people follow traditions and precepts of men".

On 7/10/10 I asked you the question "which came first. The Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church"?

You didn't answer my question, but Ignatius gave the answer "Neither. Before the great schism of 1054 AD we were one Church".

I guess this explains why there is very little difference between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church.
---Rob on 7/16/10


\\But if you read what the Early Church preached such as baptism by immersion and that a minister must be the husband of one wife along with Leaders must be of good report.\\

Actually, the Orthodox Church baptizes by immersion, and most parish clergy are married.

\\ Then you will see that the RCC has changed and made salvation by their teachings through sacremnts instead of the true Gospel. \\

And this is NOT the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but the commandment that forbade bearing false witness doesn't apply if you want to bear false witness against Roman Catholics, does it, Samuel?
---Cluny on 7/15/10


\\\I do not believe the "FAIRY TALE" that we received the Books of the Bible from some Orthodox Council of Men, or from some Monks living in Monestaries.\\

I just read a most interesting article from an art journal about the Garima Gospels, a Biblical ms copied in Ethiopia in a monastery there sometime between 350-630 according to radiocarbon dating. According to tradition, it was copied and illuminated by a monk named Abba Garima.

Just another example of how monks and monasteries (note the spelling, Rob) copied, preserved, and transmitted the Bible.

You all can look up about this on line.
---Cluny on 7/15/10


--Rob on 7/14/10 I do believe the Bible is the True and Inspired Word of God which we received through the Prophets and the Apostles.

Amen Rob, makes perfect sense, from a spiritual standpoint.
---michael_e on 7/15/10


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The RCC has stolen the early church and claimed it was the RCC. Which the Orthodox churches hotly dispute. But if you read what the Early Church preached such as baptism by immersion and that a minister must be the husband of one wife along with Leaders must be of good report. Then you will see that the RCC has changed and made salvation by their teachings through sacremnts instead of the true Gospel.

Salvation by Grace alone through faith alone.

Just like the Pharisees wanted to circumcize gentiles so do others want to save not be grace alone.
---Samuel on 7/15/10


\\I do believe the Bible is the True and Inspired Word of God which we received through the Prophets and the Apostles.\\

And who do you think decided which Apostolic and Prophetic writings were canonical, Rob? There are quite a few of both that did NOT make it into the Bible.

\\I do not believe the "FAIRY TALE" that we received the Books of the Bible from some Orthodox Council of Men, or from some Monks living in Monestaries.
---Rob on 7/14/10\\

Who do you think kept on copying the Bible for centuries until the invention of the printing press?

Hint--It wasn't the ordinary believer.
---Cluny on 7/15/10


Critique this statement, "The Catholic Church has traditionally held that salvation can be attained only through observance of their sacraments. Therefore and thereby, they have set themselves apart as the only true church."

Any church / denomination/ or sect that cannot boldly claim that it is thre TRUE CHURCH has issues.

You must as a denomination belive that your teahing are the ONLY true teaching.
---francis on 7/15/10


Many false religions traditionally hold salvation to be attained only through observing their sacraments. That is their own foolishness, for the holy scripture proves to the contrary.
---Eloy on 7/14/10


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Rob:

Then how do you know just WHICH books OUGHT to be in the Bible, and which ones ought to be left out? The Bible itself does not contain a Table of Contents specifying which books are inspired or not. The decision on which books to include was either
1) made by a concensus of learned men (church leaders), or
2) divinely inspired, but such inspiration is not recorded anywhere in scripture, and was merely implemented by a group of learned men.

In either case, we have to take those men's word for it.
---StrongAxe on 7/14/10


Cluny, I do not believe in "FAIRY TALES".

I do believe the Bible is the True and Inspired Word of God which we received through the Prophets and the Apostles.

I do not believe the "FAIRY TALE" that we received the Books of the Bible from some Orthodox Council of Men, or from some Monks living in Monestaries.
---Rob on 7/14/10


\\\\Will you show where in scripture Monks and Monestaries are found?\\\\

There's something so Alice-in-Wonderland about this question that it renders the mind bogglable.

Just WHO do you think it was who labored so long to copy, transmit, and preserve the very Scriptures to which you appeal?

The very monks in monasteries which you challenge us to find in the Bible.
---Cluny on 7/14/10


\\Why do those of the Orthodox persuasion say we received the New Testament from an Orthodox Council of Men?\\

You don't think the NT dropped down out of heaven already written, do you, Rob? God used MEN to promulgate which writings were canonical and which weren't.

\\Will you show where in scripture Monks and Monestaries are found?\\

Hebrews 11 describes those who wore clothing of animal skins and lived in caves and other hidden places, and says the world was NOT WORTHY of such people.

Now, will you show where in scripture there are revivals, invitation hymns, altar calls, and "sinner's prayer"?
---Cluny on 7/13/10


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Rob. If you want to learn the theological/historical background of Monasticism and not just "bash" many Holy Men and Women who follow the monastic life (they are far more spiritual than many of us here) than google "Monasticism in the Orthodox Church", "The Holy Mountain: A place with ecumenical coordinates and a celestial orientation", "Orthodox Monasticism:
A Brief Study for the Layman", etc.

Further, if you want to read the Spiritual Counsels of certain ascetics, then pick up a copy of "Counsels From the Holy Mountain" by Elder Ephraim or "Monastic Wisdom" by Elder Joseph the Hesychast and many others. After the Bible, they are my spiritual treasures.....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 7/12/10


Rob

1) Neither. Before the Great Schism of 1054AD, we were One Church. Although it is clear that for a couple hundreds of years there was tension before the West and the East,

2) It is just us who say that? No. If you want to learn, you will study Early Church Historical Books from Roman Catholic and Protestant Scholars/Historians about the canonization of the NT.

3) The concept of a deeper relationship with God through exclusion from the worldly affairs is in the Bible (Matt. 19:11-12,29, 22:30, 1 Cor 7:1, 7, 21, 32-33, 38, John 17:13-1). Monks and Nuns simply follow the Christian Life deeper than the rest with constant chastity, celibacy, poverty, prayer and fasting. Is that wrong? Evil?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 7/12/10


mima, are you ever going to give the source of this statement you want us to critique?

Because if it's from what someone else stated Roman Catholicism says, or (what is more likely) from a polemical source, it's clearly spurious.

If it is from a Roman Catholic source, I'd like to know who said it and in what context.
---Cluny on 7/11/10


\\Cluny ... "One God Jesus name Church of Jesus Christ"

Is that really the name of your church?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/10/10\\

I was merely pointing out that our Church was founded on Pentecost.

"Orthodox" is a label we wear so others can find us.

Our names to ourselves are the Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of Jesus, et al, and other terms used in the NT.
---Cluny on 7/10/10


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Cluny, I have some questions I hope you will answer so myself and others will have more insight and a better understanding of the Orthodox Church.

Based on documented history which came first. The Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church?

Why do those of the Orthodox persuasion say we received the New Testament from an Orthodox Council of Men?

Will you show where in scripture Monks and Monestaries are found?
---Rob on 7/10/10


Cluny ... "One God Jesus name Church of Jesus Christ"

Is that really the name of your church?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/10/10


Mima, whenever God wants to save someone, He will save them no matter where they come from or what denomination they are from. The time will come when He will call someone and draw them to Himself, He will teach them and prepare them, He will turn around and give them to Christ, who will pay for their sins with His atonement, and the Holy Spirit will guide them unto all Truth and seal them until the Day of redemption. Who cares where they come from? There is many things wrong with the teachings of many, not just in the RCC. They don't stop God from saving anyone He wants to save. God will draw them out of the path they were in, and they will not even know it until they are out of that path, and recognize what God has done for them.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/10


\\THE One God Jesus name Church of Jesus Christ Is founded on the day of Pentecost Acts 2 v's 37 - 41( None before & None after )\\

That's the one I'm a member of.

The only other one here, so far as I can tell, is Ignatius.

The rest of the people here follow traditions and precepts of men.
---Cluny on 7/9/10


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I graduated from a very old 400yo university, and now with a Grad Dip in Theology and never it was taught that salvation is only through the sacraments even before Vatican II. Protestants used to attack Catholics that way probably because meeting traditional cultural Catholics who are caught with the sacraments and the novenas. Grace is a very sacred and revered term in the RCC.
---Celia on 7/10/10


THE One God Jesus name Church of Jesus Christ Is founded on the day of Pentecost Acts 2 v's 37 - 41( None before & None after ). This Is The Early Church that the devil with the roman emperor for the rcc with nero & the crusades went to kill off. The remnant of That Early Church still lives today & I'm a part of. The One God Jesus name Church of the Living God( this Is orthodox, in other words the Right belief, even the Only True belief ). We are the ones that's hated by mankind because of Jesus name. The devil ( the anti - christ ) with the Man - mades will prob kill us off again for Jesus name sake.
NONE others apply.
---Lawrence on 7/9/10


\\the rcc have their Mad - made salvation through sacraments & other ideology\\

And prots have their own man-made salvation sacraments and ideologies.

That's why I'm Orthodox--the Church that Jesus Himself founded, based on no man-made ideas or sectarian principles, but feeds soley on Christ.
---Cluny on 7/9/10


May I point out that the so-called "sinner's prayer" that mima claims to have led people in to get saved in actually a Protestant sacramental formula that likewise works ex opere operato?
---Cluny on 7/9/10


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Because of here 2nd.Cor.4 v 4 & 11 v's 14 - 15
the rcc have their Mad - made salvation through sacraments & other ideology.
And Is An Abomination to Almighty God.
---Lawrence on 7/9/10


I would like to know who made that statement and in what context, as it doesn't sound like any statements I've read about what the Roman Catholic Church says about itself.
---Cluny on 7/9/10


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