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What Is The Old Covenant

What exactly is the Old Covenant and is the church under its jurisdiction?

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 ---leej on 7/12/10
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It seems like Francis still rejects what is clearly written in Galatians Chapter Two, Galatians Chapter Three, and Ephesians Chapter Two.
---Rob on 7/20/10


While we are not justified by keeping the law, no one has ever bein justified who did not keep the law.
---francis on 7/20/10

You are closer to the truth than you were before.

Your first statement is totally accurate. Gal. 3:21 tells us that the Law cannot impart life (eternal) nor righteousness.

Your second statement is a conclusion drawn from the verses you listed and is faulty.

If we stay in Galatians chapter 3 we see this verse:

Gal 3:6 "Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS"

Abraham before the Law, trusted God and God made him righteous. Biblical faith takes action to make it into trust. We keep the commandments as our way of trusting God.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/20/10


If you read through these blogs, you will learn Francis will not answer your questions because they are caught up in trying to keep the LAW, and they reject GRACE.
---Rob on 7/19/10

Well thanks for the compliment:
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

I do not reject grace:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
---francis on 7/20/10


Mark_Eaton on 7/19/10
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So what can we conclude from these text?
While we are not justified by keeping the law, no one has ever bein justified who did not keep the law.
---francis on 7/20/10


Mark_Eaton on 7/20/10
What i wanted was to know what else besides what i posted last. What i posted should thatthe sanctuary was the shadow, so if you have other shadows share. I am in no way saying mine is a complete list. But i would like to see others with text included
---francis on 7/20/10




Now do the same show your TEXT
---FRANCIS on 7/19/10

What are you asking for?

Your request does not make sense to me. My last post to you included two verses from Hebrews that showed NEW ideas and new concepts not included in your previous post that said Hebrews only showed the sanctuary the changes to the sancuary and nothing else.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/20/10


Mark_Eaton

Earhly sanctuary >Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Earthly high priest> Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,

Lamb > John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Light > John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Veil > Hebrews 10:20 that is to say, his flesh,

Oil* > Matthew 25:4 wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Bread > John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Water > John 4:13 , Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Now do the same show your TEXT
---FRANCIS on 7/19/10


//It is not obedience to the Law that makes us perfect or pleases God but faith in Jesus Christ.

And it is His righteousness that we been credited to our account.

1 Cor. 1:30-31 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

There is no room in the truth for one to boast of his or her obedience as such is merely the figment of religion.

Those that demand obedience really usurp the job of the Holy Spirit in sanctification.
---leej on 7/19/10


And the bottom line is this: The OLD COVENANT which we are not under refers to the EARTHLY SANCTUARY and all it's services. That is all it is, THE BIBLE adds nothing else.
---FRANCIS on 7/17/10

Wrong. It adds this:

Heb 10:1 "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near"

Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

It is not obedience to the Law that makes us perfect or pleases God but faith in Jesus Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/19/10


Mark Eaton, if you read through these blogs, you will learn Francis will not answer your questions because they are caught up in trying to keep the LAW, and they reject GRACE.
---Rob on 7/19/10


I see her concerned about the balance in scripture.

Perhaps the "laws in her heart and mind" speak to her?
Heb 8:10.
---Trav on 7/19/10




Mark Eaton, if you read through these blogs, you will learn Francis will not answer your questions because they are caught up in trying to keep the LAW, and they reject GRACE.
---Rob on 7/19/10


READ HEBREWS
---francis on 7/19/10

Why don't you answer my question? I have read Hebrews, thank you very much, and the sanctuary has little to do with the subject of my question to you.

My question to you is does justification before God require obedience to the Law? Do you believe that it is faith plus works that makes you justified before God?
---Mark_Eaton on 7/19/10


Mark_Eaton

Law as school master: READ HABREWS
All that was in the SANCTUARY acted as a schoolmaster to teach the plan of salvation

Earthly high priest> Christ as high priest
Lamb > Christ lamb of God
Light > christ light of the world
Veil > Body of christ
Oil > Christ spirit
Bread > Christ the bread of life

Everyone who followed the sanctuary ordinances would know that it pointed to christ. Once christ came we have no more need of the earthly sanctuary,it served it's purpose.

The ten commandments still tell us what sin is today don't they?
So we need the ten commandments to tell us what sin is, but we no longer need the earthly sanctuary since all is transfered to the heavenly. READ HEBREWS
---francis on 7/19/10


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
---francis on 7/16/10

You write it but do you believe it?

Justified. What does that mean to you? Justified is having a just or right or innocent position before God in a legal sense. This is a legal term. It means blameless before God.

What then are the requirements to be justified before God? Is it keeping the Law? Is it required obedience to God's commandments?

No, no, no. All it takes is faith in Jesus. We are justified, once, for all eternity, when we truly accept by faith the sacrificial death of Jesus.

Now, we could talk about obedience to God's commandments as EVIDENCE of faith.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/18/10


Francis -//False teachers add Ten commandments, dietary laws, and ttry to make christianity a gentile religion rather that the good olive tree into which the wild is grafted.

I think you are on target on this issue. All too many believe if we follow religion we are also following Christ, but that is not really true.

Those who abide in Christ will produce fruits unto righteousness regardless of what religions may teach.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His creation--created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Php. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
---leej on 7/18/10


Methodist - "The reason we observe the first day instead of the seventh is based on no positive command. One will search the Scriptures in vain for authority for changing from the seventh day to the first." Clovis G. Chappell, Ten Rules For Living. pg. 61

Baptist - Harold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity Today. said, "There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Christianity Today, November 5, 1976.

Episcopal - "The Bible commandment says on the seventh day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it laid down that worship should be done on Sunday." Philip Carrington, Toronto Daily Star, October 26, 1949.
---francis on 7/18/10


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the old covenant consist of all the words of the Lord,(the 10 commandments),and all the judgments. Ex.2o-23. We are not under the old covenant.
---mike on 7/18/10


Peter R. Tramer,
The Catholic Extension Magazine,
May 22, 1934.

"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

(3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh Day Adventists are the only group that reasons correctly and are consistent with their teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in the Bible."
---francis on 7/18/10


READ HEBREWS

Transfer from Old to NEW conevant goes as such:

The priesthood -> christ being a better high priest
The Earthly sanctuary -> Christ ministers in the heavenly sanctuary
Blood of goats and bull ->The Blood of Jesus
Cleansing of the earthly sanctuary -> Christ cleaning of the heavenly sanctuary

And the bottom line is this: The OLD COVENANT which we are not under refers to the EARTHLY SANCTUARY and all it's services. That is all it is, THE BIBLE adds nothing else.
False teachers add Ten commandments, dietary laws, and ttry to make christianity a gentile religion rather that the good olive tree into which the wild is grafted.

Earthly sanctuary as type -> Heavenly sanctuary as anti type.
---FRANCIS on 7/17/10


//But Churches down through the ages have agreed the Ten Commandments were for all. Along with all moral laws in the bible.

And since they followed those traditions established by the Apostles & their successor, they came to recognize the Lord's day - Sunday - as the Christian Sabbath. This was easy to do since Saturday outside of the Jewish religion was considered a workday, the only day off in the rest of the world was Sunday.

Emperor Constantine tried to standardize the day of rest even prior to his 'conversion' to Christianity. He did, however, excuse that edict from farmers and those of other applicable professions.

---leej on 7/16/10


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But Churches down through the ages have agreed the Ten Commandents were for all. Along with all moral laws in the bible.
---Samuel on 7/16/10


Well, they were for ALL Israel. Others should/could/can learn from them. Such and the 70/80% that fill our prisons etc.

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,
Ezekiel 16:60
Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
Heb8:8-10
---Trav on 7/16/10


The Old Covenant was given on Mt. Sinai and yet it was not the first Covenant that GOD made with man. The First Covenant was made with Adam and Eve that a Saviour born of a woman would come who would destroy Satan. Each Covenant gave more details and changed the previous one.

So with the New Covenant promised to Israel and accepted by any who want to follow GOD through JESUS. In the New Testament they worked to figure out what was for both and what was for Jews and not gentiles. That is why there were arguments on Circumsion and why days pointing to the first coming of JESUS are not in force. But Churches down through the ages have agreed the Ten Commandents were for all. Along with all moral laws in the bible.
---Samuel on 7/16/10


icha9344 on 7/16/10

Give me a break will you
If the earthly sanctuary was just a shadow or type who was the real high priest in the real sanctuary all along?
Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Unless you do not understand the purpose of the earthly sanctuary?
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
---francis on 7/16/10


francis, you have done this before, your reasoning is faulty, you dance around the word 'change', you keep some of the law yet discard others, you tell others nothing has changed and yet point them to Christ.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews also clearly says something has changed...ignore it all you want, just don't be hypocritical about it.
---micha9344 on 7/16/10


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francis - you might view the fact that the Old Testament also commands physical circumcision - a rite that was done away with in the New Covenant along with adherence of other strictly Jewish laws - dietary laws and the observance of holy days (ever read Acts 15, or Romans 14?)

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people, he hath broken my covenant.

1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better, neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Sorry to see you get struck out all the time but maybe someday you will read the Bible with better mentors.
---leej on 7/16/10


\\Homoxexuality and eating unclean flesh are both abominations to God why would he acept one and not the other?
---francis on 7/16/10\\

The same word "abomination/toevah" is used in Proverbs 20,10 to describe "diverse weights and measures"--a double standard, as we say today.
---Cluny on 7/16/10


"there is therefore now no CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus" no matter if you eat pork, no matter if you hold the sabbath on Sunday, not matter if you do not tithe, no matter what.
Mark_Eaton on 7/16/10
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

Can you see how you doctrine is DIFFERENT and strange?
God is a liar, or you are mistaken which is it?
---francis on 7/16/10


Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Homoxexuality and eating unclean flesh are both abominations to God why would he acept one and not the other?
---francis on 7/16/10


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What shall we say then? Shall we continue to break the law that grace may abound?
---francis on 7/16/10

You miss the point. Let me try to explain by not using the ten commandments or the Law.

Mima loves to evangelize and he could rightly defend the argument that all Christians are commanded by Christ to go into the world and be missionaries of the gospel. Mima could say if anyone does not do so, Christ will not be pleased with you.

This is the argument you are making about the Law.

However, the truth is there is NOT one way for ALL people to live for Christ. It is different for each person as I am different from you. This is why Paul told us to in Philippians to "work out your salvation".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/16/10


Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.
---francis on 7/16/10


The Law was only given to Israel. Israel broke the law. Nth House of Israel was divorced. Sth house was not. The relationship was a marriage.

GOD does not change. Man does. GOD wanted Israel back. He loved her. All of her.
New covenant Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31.
Heb 8:10> (States laws in the heart now....of the house of Israel.)

Now perhaps Francis....you have these laws written in your heart? Is it too hard to believe...GOD could do this?
---Trav on 7/16/10


francis -

What doctrine do you find that is exclusively from the Old Covenant that you feel is binding on the Church?

We can all agree since Hebrews 8:13 states the Old Covenant is obsolete and [has] passed away with the ending of temple worship (70 a.d.) then any doctrine derived exclusively from the Old Covenant has to be also obsolete and not binding.

And such is the observance of the olde Jewish Sabbath, dietary laws, and other laws the church has viewed as being exclusively Jewish.

Hebrew 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Since the context is about the covenant, the word 'covenant' qualifies in 8:13.
---leej on 7/16/10


Rob on 7/16/10

Not sure what you are talking about.
However are these scriptures violated bywhat you want to say:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

If what you have to say shows that the bible doctrines are different from the books of the OT to that of the NT then you are wrong, or God is a liar when he says he will not change his doctrine yesterday today and tommorow

Mark_Eaton on 7/16/10
The Law is the same: The Law points out sin.
The wages is sin ( effect of the law) Is still death.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue to break the law that grace may abound?
---francis on 7/16/10


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Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
---francis on 7/16/10

Herein lies your error.

You say that Jesus is the same and the doctrine of Jesus is the same to which we will all agree, but then you throw in the Law and say "If Jesus is the same, then the Law is still the same". The Law may still be the same, but the EFFECT is different.

You are dismissing grace. Grace says to us "there is therefore now no CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus" no matter if you eat pork, no matter if you hold the sabbath on Sunday, not matter if you do not tithe, no matter what.

This is the truth that you do NOT believe.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/16/10


Acts 13:

Three groups of people seen here
1: Unbelieving Jews
2: Converts to christainity (Jews and religious proselytes)
3: Gentiles

All within hearing distance of paul who is in the synagogue

To the christians( Jews and religious proselytes) paul says: continue in the grace of God.

What are these believers doing in synagogue on sabbath?
Why do the gentiles have to come NEXT sabbath when there is a christain community who SHOULD be meeting next day?

If your theology is right, there should be a Sunday meeting which Paul would have attended and also invited the gentiles.

Would you want an eager person to wait one whole week when you are meeting next day?

Do you understand
---francis on 7/16/10


Francis, it is very evident you still reject the MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL even though it is clearly written in SCRIPTURE.

You constantly do what is written in Romans 1:21-25. This is because you still reject what is written in Ephesians Chapter Two, Ephesians Chapter Three, along with all of the other passages of scripture which talk about THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL.
---Rob on 7/16/10


micha9344 on 7/16/10

The text does not support you answers

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:20 But that WE WRITE UNTO THEM, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

EVERYTHING in verse 20 comes from the writing of moses.
Why not meet with the gentiles NEXT DAY or NEXT SUNDAY?
---francis on 7/16/10


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francis, you will not accept the answers, though you want them from me.
Acts 13:46 tells us Paul was preaching to the Jews, not the Gentiles, nor believers.
If there were Gentile bystanders, of course they would want Paul to go over it again, they brought their friends which were also unbelievers. Amazing huh?
Even 14:1,2 shows the order... preach to Jew/Gentile.. believe.. strife...
The Gentile converts weren't told Moses was read on the sabbath, not in 15:21. James was telling why they should write to the converts about 15:20. Notice in 15:23-29 when they actually wrote the letter, esp. v29 repeats v20 only. It was because of Moses being read everywhere that they had to write that and not have Gentiles follow Judaism.
---micha9344 on 7/16/10


Mark_Eaton on 7/15/10

Romans 14 has nothing to do with clean and unclean animals. the distinction is not clean and unclean it is:
Romans 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

Some how it is foolish to say that the doctrine of God does not change, and then say we can have sunday sabbath or eat what we want.
Any such doctrine could not be true, nor can it be found true by any search of the word of an unchanging God.

YESTERDAYS DOCTRINE ( before the cross) MUST be the same as today and tommorow.
---francis on 7/16/10


Agree essentially with Mark Eaton -

1Co 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.

I think where we have conflicts is when someone insist that we sin if we eat certain types of food. Usually such people do not make any distinction between the Old Covenant and the New, thinking that Jewish laws are applicable to the Christian.
---leej on 7/15/10


Francis, Leej:

Does this verse mean anything to you:

Rom 14:3 "The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him"

If Francis wants to follow the Law to please our Lord, who are we to judge him?

If Lee wants to eat everything and he wants to observe the sabbath on Sunday, who are we to judge?

We live for the Lord, not ourselves. Please Him and not at the expense of others.

Remember this, "For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love"
---Mark_Eaton on 7/15/10


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Francis //first 10000 christiasn ALL JEWS USED exclusively the writing of Jews for 50+ years before the NT was developed as canon.

No church historian disagrees with you but as more and more Gentiles came into the church, the subject as to whether Gentile converts has to become proselytes to Judaism and observe all the laws of Moses arose. (see Acts 15:5f) To settle that issue, a council was held at Jerusalem and it was decided Gentile converts needed not become Jewish.

That is why you do NOT see any teachings in the early Gentile church that mandated adherence to the Sabbath, Levitical dietary laws, etc. etc.things that became optional to believers. Romans 14

Do you agree with the decision of the Jerusalem council?
---leej on 7/15/10


Believers did not assemble in the synagogues, it would be Jewish heresy.
micha9344 on 7/14/10
Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Now where were these gentiles?
There were no megaphones used, they were withing hearing distance, and not just ONE gentile:

Acts 13:44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
---francis on 7/15/10


Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now why tell gentiles converts that Moses was preached every sabbath day?
How does it benefit them if Moses is preached every sabbath day, and they are congregating every 1st day?

The only reason that pauls tells them Mose sis taught every sabbath day IN THE SYNAGOGUE is that they could assemple and hear the word of God.

Why on earth was Moses not read every 1st day? ANswer this for me please/ with SCRIPTURE
SYNAGOGUE not TEMPLE
---francis on 7/15/10


You continue to bring Isa 66:22-23 out of context as evident in Isa 66:24...'carcases' on the new earth?
---micha9344 on 7/14/10

Isaiah 66 deals with the future / the comming of the messiah. and the future hold two things
1: for the believer salvation, a new heavena nd a new earth to include worship every sabbath
2: For the lost destruction and death by fire
burned to ash

I would think that would be very strait forward.
---francis on 7/15/10


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francis,
Unbelievers went to synagogues. Paul went to synagogues to preach the gospel to unbelievers as Acts clearly shows.
The righteous need not a physician.
Believers did not assemble in the synagogues, it would be Jewish heresy.
You continue to bring Isa 66:22-23 out of context as evident in Isa 66:24...'carcases' on the new earth?!?...
Also, don't be a hypocrit by posting about the sabbath then telling others not to do the same. How pharisee of you!!!
I'm sure you're gonna blame me when you could have let it slide all the same.
---micha9344 on 7/14/10


Sorry but your assertion that the Christian faith is nothing less than an extension of the Jewish religion is totally fallacious.
leej on 7/14/10

Are you smoking/ injecting, inhaling something something?

Romans 15:27 For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of ISRAEL and with the house of JUDAH:
---francis on 7/14/10


Leej on 7/14

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him],

Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

first 10000 christiasn ALL JEWS
USED exclusively the writing of Jews for 50+ years before the NT was developed as a cannon.

The Messiah is Jewish
ALL his teaching JEWISH
If your form of christianity does not reflect that is was graf6edinto a JEWISH OLIVE TREE from a wild olive tree you are in trouble.
---FRANCIS on 7/14/10


francis ..Sorry but your assertion that the Christian faith is nothing less than an extension of the Jewish religion is totally fallacious.
Your ...is a minority view is simply because it lacks any substantial support.
---leej on 7/14/10

Wide is the way. List me among your minority. I will bring all GOD's witnesses/prophets. You bring your commentaries for substantial support.
Christianity exists by provision/extension of the Israels former marriage. The New Covenant plainly states participants. Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31. Christ states who he came for. I come to seek and save that which was lost, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt 15:24. This is who first accepted or Christ failed.
---Trav on 7/15/10


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Leej on 7/14/10

Look again.
Look in ACTS ask yourself why did the whole gentile village come NEXT sabbath and not next day
Look n ACts 15 why does paul say that Moses is taught every sabbath, why not every sunday?
Look in isiaih 66 which in way way way into the New covenant you will see sabbath in new earth.
Unlike christians today, the new converts had no issues keeping the sabbath. You do understand that most of the NT was written to correct issues in the early church. ALso understand this: Sabbath was never an issue in the early church not with the first 10,000 christians and all apostles being Jews/ hebrews.

Please LOOK AGAIN so we do NOT make this blog a sabbath issue PLEASE
---francis on 7/14/10


francis //A fine example why we should avoid "most theologians today".

What do you also want, a listing of dozens of church writers from earlier centuries?

Sorry but your assertion that the Christian faith is nothing less than an extension of the Jewish religion is totally fallacious.

Your continues to be a minority view and why it is a minority view is simply because it lacks any substantial support.
---leej on 7/14/10


//Search in the NT writtings to see how many of the ten commandments reappear in the NT.

ALL the ten commandments are found within the New Testament and commanded of Christians except the Sabbath commandment.

All we have is Romans 14:5 which states one may esteem a day over others or none at all. Furthermore, the early church did not teach Sabbath observance but considered it strictly as a Jewish observance, nowhere found within any other culture.

I do believe we do very well if we view the fulfillment of the commandments as simply love of neighbor. Read Romans 13:10-11.
---leej on 7/14/10


"The division between OT and NT book is strictly superficial, man made, and not spiritual or God ordained." ---francis

The above statement is really beyond the pale of understanding. A person who believes this statement is true will never adjust too, nor enjoy, nor benefit from the New Testament and Christ's sacrifice.
---mima on 7/14/10


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---Trav on 7/14/10
very well said. I am sure glad that you are not " Most theologians."
---francis on 7/14/10


Most theologians today would tell you the Old Covenant ended with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple 70 a.d.
---leej on 7/14/10

A fine example why we should avoid "most theologians today".

Found easily by those who aren't "theologians" when covenant ended.
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---Trav on 7/14/10


According to Exodus & Deuteronomy the ten commandments is the Old Covenant.

leej on 7/14/10
Yeah, hey do me a little favour will you.
Search in the NT writtings to see how many of the ten commandments reappear in the NT.
Then search to see how many of the earthly sanctuary laws reapear as part of christian life. How many times are we told to sacrifice and use high priest, verses how many time we are told not to commit adultery or murder or kill, steal honour parents, and not covet.
can you do that for me please?
---francis on 7/14/10


Francis - **The Old Covenant refers strictly to the sanctuary as written in the book of Hebrews.
If you were in my theology class, you would most likely get an F.
---leej on 7/14/10


I thank my GOD and you should too you are not in this theology class.
I'll proudly post my "F", from a puffy rabbi.
The "only" rabbi is No/Charge and better.
How many active students do you have and where can we reach them online.

Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
---Trav on 7/14/10


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Francis - **The Old Covenant refers strictly to the sanctuary as written in the book of Hebrews.

If you were in my theology class, you would most likely get an F.

According to Exodus & Deuteronomy the ten commandments is the Old Covenant.

Ex 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

De 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Most theologians today would tell you the Old Covenant ended with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple 70 a.d.
---leej on 7/14/10


//When the bible says that the Bereans search the scriptures, they are referring to what we call the Old Testament.

And what the Bereans were doing in searching the scriptures was to verify what Paul was telling them about what the scripture stated about Jesus being the promised Messiah.

He was not preaching adherence to Jewish laws such as sabbath keeping, dietary laws or other laws strictly Jewish in nature, but about Jesus and the free gift of salvation to everyone who would believe.
---leej on 7/14/10


When the bible says that the Bereans search the scriptures, they are referring to what we call the Old Testement.
---francis on 7/14/10

You got that exactly right. They would have been looking at the prophets...prophecy's.
Something that is seldom done today.
That is O.K. It was meant to be so. those that cannot see will never see. they were not meant to anyway. Their search is for another way.

John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber
---Trav on 7/14/10


I do hope that the informed blogger knows that the "New Testement" writers do not refer to any books of the bible as " old testement" books.
The division between OT and NT book is strictly superficial, man made, and not spiritual or God ordained.

When the bible says that the Bereans search the scriptures, they are referring to what we call the Old Testement.
---francis on 7/14/10


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The Old Covenant refers stricktly to the sanctuary as written in the book of Hebrews.

When someone sinned, they brought an animal to the sanctuary and killed it, the high priest would bring the blood into the sanctuary, and on the day of atonement all sins were cleaned/ sanctuary was cleansed.

Today christ is that high priest working in the heavenly sanctuary. And that is all that has changed. What was a sin in the bible is still a sin tdoay. Only we go directly to christ for forgiveness and not through an earthly priest.

Check the Book of Hebrews.
---francis on 7/14/10


Within the Old Testament there are six distinct covenants with:
1. God and Adam.. A new Covenants to follow -- Through the Messiah
---Friendly_Blogger on 7/13/10


It is notable the absence of any discussion on the last covenant found in Heb 8:8- and Jer 31:31-
It is stated. It is truth. Misunderstood it is avoided sometimes degraded and hated.

Two parties are involved....the House of Israel AND Judah.
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
---Trav on 7/14/10


It is the old testament, and no the church is under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant as written in the New Testament.
---Eloy on 7/14/10


I hear you all talk about the old and new covenants and the law. It also seems that depending on one's interpretation some law has been done away with.

Is Deuteronomy 22:13-21 part of law, or part of law that was done away with. Seems a little harsh to me...
---atheist on 7/13/10


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There used to be "six WORKING days" when the inner temple/"court" was not connected to the outer temple...

Ezekiel 46:1
"The gate of the inner court...shall be shut on the six working days" (word limit, look up the verse).

...but now that JESUS became our sabbath rest (in their lifetime, the Israelites never had the sabbath rest of Jesus, Hebrews 4:3), the inner temple is baptized/consecrated to the outer temple by The Holy Spirit using the LIVING water that flowed from Jesus at the cross (1 John 5:6).

Jesus became the outer temple in "three days" (John 2:19 and 21) and we are the inner temple (1 Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19).

This understanding is not NECESSARY for salvation.
---more_excellent_way on 7/13/10


Within the Old Testament there are six distinct covenants with:
1. God and Adam
2. God and Noah
3. God and Abraham
4. God and Moses
5. God and David
6. A new Covenants to follow -- Through the Messiah

Space does not allow full discussion.
---Friendly_Blogger on 7/13/10


I think we MUST all read that book before we post our opinions. And go with what THE BIBLE SAYS
---francis on 7/13/10


Wisdom.

The bridegroom comes. Virgins. We have no problem with that in the New Covenant. But, mention the Old Covenant Marriage an there is a real quietness. Sometimes anger, sometimes just unbelief.
I'm not going to go into it again...but to say the Old Covenant Marriage....explains comletely the New Covenant engagement. For Sheep seeking and searching.

Eze11:19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you, and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ref:Heb 8:8-10.
---Trav on 7/13/10


The book of Hebrews gve a detailed acount of both the New Covenant, and Old Covenant.

It tells us what the Old Covenant was, and what the New covenant is.

It does not say old is 10 commandmennt or dietary laws. In reinforced the ten commandments and tithes, Show the finality of the old covenant sanctuary services, and places emphasis on the heavenly sanctuary and Jesus as High priest.

Hebrews is the only book that gives such details of Old and New covenant.
I think we MUST all read that book before we post our opinions. And go with what THE BIBLE SAYS
---francis on 7/13/10


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What exactly is the Old Covenant and is the church under its jurisdiction?

When we say old COvenant, we are actually referring to the earthly sanctuary and it's services.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made, the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread, which is called the sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
---francis on 7/13/10


I like Donna's answer very much.
---mima on 7/13/10


The Old Covenant was the Law!!!!

Jesus came to fulfill the law.

The law meaning the 10 Commandments.

When you meet Jesus, fall in love with Him, accept Him as your Lord and Savior, the law becomes GRACE. The 10 commandments become 10 promises (and the carnal mind won't understand how that happens unless your mind has been renewed in the spirit of the word of God).

The carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him.
---Donna5535 on 7/13/10


The Church, the Body of Christ, isn't under any covenant.
---michael_e on 7/13/10


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The old covenant is the way people used to worship God. It has no jurisdiction over us. It DID EXIST,....that fact will never change, but Jesus TREATS it as obsolete (we should too). When Jesus was crucified, it VANISHED AWAY....

Hebrews 8:13
"In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away".

It is HISTORY (there is really no reason that we should even be aware of it, we are NOT Jews). To us, the old covenant is simply a technicality. Our only concern should be "Christ and Him crucified".

1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified".
---more_excellent_way on 7/12/10


"What exactly is the Old Covenant? "
The covenant under which man received the law. Heb. 7:11
"Is the church under its jurisdiction?" No.
"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete." Heb. 8:13 (NASB)
"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, on the other hand, there [was] the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God." Heb. 7:18,19 (NKJV)
---josef on 7/13/10


The Old Covenant is the O - Testament laws etc. God once winked at ignorance.

The New Covenant is the N - Testament grace & Gods gives requirements.
Disobeying God, He will mock at your calamity.
---Lawrence on 7/13/10


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