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Evidence For An Old Earth

What evidence - either scriptural or scientific - exists to prove that the earth is older than about 6000 years?

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 ---jerry6593 on 7/16/10
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David now let us get this clear:

Two questions-are you now saying that "the first day" of Genesis 1:5 is of the same length as "the sixth day" of Genesis 1:31, and the same length as each of the "6 days" of Exodus 20:8, and of the same length as each of the "6 days" of Exodus 20:11?

If the 'days' of creation are just 'creative periods' and the length does not matter then what is the purpose of Genesis 1:3-5 which is devoted solely to defining how long "the first day" is?
---Warwick on 7/21/10


David, "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'"

God's creation account begins "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.." And concludes "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in their vast array. All was created in six ordinary 24hr days as defined in Genesis 1:3-5 and confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11.

Mark 10:6 demonstrates that man is (all but a few days) as old as the creation. Therefore the genealogies God has provided give the Bible believer a timeline of c4,000 years from Adam to Jesus. Add to this the c2,000 years from Jesus until now equals c6,000 years. I didn't think I had to spell it out for you David.
---Warwick on 7/21/10


Can you not reason from cause to effect?---Jerry

Reason for me god speaking (cause) the universe into existence (effect).

Can you not reason from cause to effect?

I refuse to play the role of apologist to your distorted descriptions of science and scientific theories.

Again, it doesn't matter. Failure of science to explain anything to your satisfaction does not prove that your god is responsible for everything. Can you provide a reasonable argument why anyone should believe that 'he' is, other that they chose to believe it?
---atheist on 7/21/10


BTW David "the heavens and the earth", Genesis 1:1 is in Hebrew a 'merism' meaning all there is, everything, the whole deal. Obviously therefore including everything which God made in His 6-day creation. And as Colossians1:15-18 proves it was all created by and for the Lord Jesus Christ.

"The heavens and the earth" is akin to the English "lock stock and barrel" which refers to the three parts of a double barrell shotgun, also meaning the totality, the whole thing.
---Warwick on 7/21/10


Trav, when God writes "something new" I will respond to that. Until then I will stick to what our unchanging God says in His word which He has provided for us.

Indeed I do preach the same message, and will continue to do so. I will avoid being conned by the crafty tales of falible sinful men.

I do not have to wonder if, for example, the flood was global as God clearly tells us it was, in both the OT and NT.

His word is good enough for me but obviolsly not acceptable to others.

Those who promote a local flood do so against His word, for antiBiblical reasons.
---Warwick on 7/21/10




Warwick really is grappling at straws in using Mark 6:10. Does this verse prove earth is 6000yrs old?

Jesus was talking of the creation of humans, not Planet Earth. Where is the Earth mentioned in this verse? From the beginning of their creation, a man and woman should stick together, not Earth's creation.

Or does Warwick now believe man and woman were created at the same time as the Earth?

Why is it that Warwick and Micha have this fixation about the time of events in creation? "What day of the sixth day did God create Adam?" micha asks. Why is it necessary for us to know this? It does not concern me to know how long it was between Adams creation, and the start of the 7th day.
---David8318 on 7/21/10


Warwick is unable to grapple with scriptural truths pointed out
So your confused deception is of your own making Warwick.
---David8318 on 7/21/10

We have to understand. Warwick has been preaching the same message for many years. He cannot discover something new now....it would undermine pastor/shep credibility. He can't search openminded because....if he finds...he would have to reveal or hide. Either way he is exposed. Something the proud cannot tolerate. Acutally it would be ok. Truth is always good for the recipient, and who is mission.
If the flood was not Global, he may not be related to Noah. A huge problem since he has preached otherwise. He has no choice but to defend...in his thinking.
---Trav on 7/21/10


Alan you need to read Scripture, and The Creation Answers Book ...

If the flood was local then the coming judgement must also be local and most evil people will not be judged and destroyed!
---Warwick on 7/20/10


Spend money to purchase a book not mentioned in scripture. Every sheep is holding the foundational book they need.
Erets, the Hebrew word used over 1,200 times meant "country, or land" was flooded. To them it would appear to be the "whole country,land" their known world.
Judgement is the offspring of the same people that were saved the first time.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 7/21/10


'timing was not the issue in the creation account. It's what happened that counts, not time.'-David8318 on 7/21/10
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days(creative periods?), and years:
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day(creative period?)that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him,
How does the Bible know how old Adam was?
What day of the sixth day did God create Adam?
---micha9344 on 7/21/10


Warwick is unable to grapple with scriptural truths pointed out to him in my previous posts, so what does he do? Warwick has to make up rubbish to counter-argue.

Warwick says, 'David, Would have us believe "the first day" of Genesis 1 is one length, "the sixth day" (man present) of Genesis 1:31 is a different length.' (7/20/10)

Where have I said this? I never said this, nor do I believe it.

Each creative period was of the same duration. But again, timing was not the issue in the creation account. It's what happened that counts, not time.

So I do not believe the creative periods were of different lengths whatever they were.

So your confused deception is of your own making Warwick.
---David8318 on 7/21/10




'atheist': "Quit trying to drag me into any "science" theory discussions."

Is that the best you can do? The blog question concerns EVIDENCE! I give you factual science, most of which you have agreed with. But all you can give in return is pseudointellectual ridicule - the stuff constantly regurgitated by university professors. Can you not think for yourself? Can you not reason from cause to effect? If you truly believe that your paradigm of origins better describes the scientific evidence than mine, then articulate it, and stop descending into grade school rhetoric as a rebuttal.
---jerry6593 on 7/21/10


Alan you need to read Scripture, and The Creation Answers Book which has a chapter on the flood.

2 Peter 3: 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Peter shows the flood was global by directly linking it to the coming fire and destruction of the earth and "ungodly men."

If the flood was local then the coming judgement must also be local and most evil people will not be judged and destroyed!
---Warwick on 7/20/10


Jerry,

What I am saying is discussion with you on this point is meaningless. You will cherry pick the "science" that supports your position and denigrate that science that disagrees with you position.

Not being able to prove on my part (to your satsifaction), "big bang" or any other warped description you chose to assign to any theory you don't like, does not prove the existence of your god.

Quit trying to drag me into any "science" theory discussions. With no scientific theories at all, the idea of a god speaking creation into existence is still just superstitious and silly.

Let's just call scientists shamen, and the various sciences superstitions, and be done with it.
---atheist on 7/20/10


Trav God calls the flood of Noah (Hebrew) 'Mabul' which of this flood, and no other. Nowhere does it say the flood is local, just the opposite.

Genesis ch.'s 7 tells us Noah was to take representatives of every kind of animal and bird "to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth"

"I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

CH. 7 and 8 continue with this exclusive language every wild animal..all livestock.. every creature..every bird..everything with wings..all creatures..of every living thing...

No hint of a local flood.
---Warwick on 7/20/10


David, Would have us believe "the first day" of Genesis 1 is one length, "the sixth day" (man present) of Genesis 1:31 is a different length. That the first 6 days of Exodus 20:8 "Six days you shall labour.." are of different length again and of different length to the 6 days of Exodus 20:11 "For in 6 days the Lord made the heavens..."

"What a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive."

So we have 6 days and 6 days and 6 days of different length. If David is correct, I am confused, he has confused me.

Can you imagine if I used 6 days in such an incomprehensible way? 'I will see you in 6 days.' What does that mean? If David is correct we cannot know!
---Warwick on 7/20/10


David Jesus in speaking of the Biblcal foundation of marriage (Mark 10:6) says man was made "at the beginning of creation." We know man was made on the 6th day and Jesus uttered these words c4,000 years later as the genealogies show. We know Jesus knew the truth of the beginning. I see no problem in considering the 6th day of 4,000 years to be "at the beginning" but if as you say the earth is much older, Jesus is obviously wrong. If wrong about this what other mistakes did He make?

Consider John 3:12 "I have spoken to you of earthly things (e.g. Mark 10:6)and you do not believe, how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

If you are correct how can we believe anything Jesus says?
---Warwick on 7/20/10


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Trav,the local flood idea has never been proved.
The deep fossil containing sedimentary layers are worldwide! See the Grand Canyon.
---Warwick on 7/19/10

Yes it has been proved by those who search. Those with eyes and ears.
It is your universal man doctrine,why you defend this "Global", late period story.
450,000 sq mi is not local/walk small.
It would have taken twenty+ Arks to contain all animal+plant & seed life.
Water pressure alone would have destroyed all seed & plants.
Fossil layer would have a worldwide sedimentary layer with all animal fossils if Global. It is not there.
People lived and recorded their history before and after the flood. Adam's kindred perished. As written.
---Trav on 7/20/10


Alan, A-men. When people turn to the world for answers, rather than God, then they are fools. The world says it started with a "Big Bang"- really? where is the witness? the record? The world says we evolved from apes which came from fish which came from amoebae and prtozoa- really? where is the witness? the record? The world says the earth is billions of years old- really? where is the witness? the record? The world says there is no God- really? where is the witness? the record? Scholarly professors more foolish and shamefully more ignorant then a little child whom knows the truth.
---Eloy on 7/20/10


God Is the Saviour- The plan of Him Saving started before substance.
God is complete-and has given us the truth of the End from the beginning. We are told of the division and of the plan of the redemption.
Faith in believing Yehovah speaks only truth.
His Word-when believed-will save you-period.

To my understanding-the purpose with substance is for the house His Word and Spirit abides in-this day and house is only temperary.

Then,that day will come when this substance it is no longer needed-
And in that day-another day begins...
---char on 7/20/10


Exo 20:11a For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day...
Exo 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
God said this twice plain as day. There is no support for the first day starting on Gen 1:3 rather than 1:1, Even 'in the beginning' denotes a start. As for Psa 90:4 and 2Pet 3:8, these are called 'similes' and can be recognized by words such as 'like' or 'as'.
Similes are not meant to be taken literally, but they often make a point. Whoever doesn't take these literally knows what the point is.
---micha9344 on 7/20/10


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In response to the blog question, there is strong scriptural evidence that the Earth is older than 6000years.

The first verse in the Bible- Gen.1:1 shows that Earth was created before the 6 creative days began. The 6 creative periods (starting Gen.1:3) describe how the already existing Earth was prepared for human habitation.

The 'Earth' wasn't created during the '3rd day', but that land was made to appear in readiness for animals and man.

Also Moses, the writer of the creation account did not believe a day with God to be 24hrs long- Psalms 90:4.

Neither did Peter, who may have had Moses in mind when he wrote 2 Peter 3:8.

Also Paul who recognised God's 7th day of rest had not yet ended- Heb.4:9-11.
---David8318 on 7/20/10


Mans situation does not compare with that of the Creator, who does not reside within our solar system and who is not affected by Planet Earth's rotation around the Sun.

Of God, who is from time indefinite to time indefinite, Moses said while writing about God's creative abilities: 'For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past'. (Ps 90:2,4)

For man, a 1000year period represents some 365,242 individual time units of day and night, but to the Creator - not that it is - but it can be just one unbroken time period in which he begins creative activity and brings it on to a successful conclusion, much as a man begins a task in the morning and concludes it by the evening.
---David8318 on 7/20/10


Regarding Warwick's reply to me 7/13/10 on a similar thread. Warwick believes Holman Dictionary definition of 'day' is the 'be all and end all' of all definitions.

I disagree with the Warwick/Holman belief that God defines His creative days as being 24hrs. There are other scholars who disagree with the Warwick/Holman school of thought too.

For example 'A Religious Encyclopaedia' (Vol. I, p. 613) observes: 'The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.'- Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.

Gen.1:5 doesn't define a 24hr day. There were no humans around during that 'day', so it wasn't necessary to do so. Again, the verse describes what happened, time was not the issue.
---David8318 on 7/20/10


Gen 8:2-3 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained, And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated
I can only tell you what I believe by faith since I was not there. I see the canyons of Mt. St. Helens that were layered and carved in days and see a larger more massive version in that of the Grand Canyon. I see billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the world. I see rock layers that could not have been bent after being hardened without breaking or reducing its thickness.
I also know the lack of information does not prove nor disprove anything.
---micha9344 on 7/20/10


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Cliff, apparently you believe Precambrian rocks, (e.g.Precambrian shield) could not have eroded within the flood timeframe?

The Flood shredded massive amounts of rock, redepositing it over the earth's surface. Nobody witnessed this, so we all function by belief applied to available evidence.

Creation scientists propose that because of tidal effects, earth spin and the lack of continents to retard water flows they reached speeds of hundreds of KPH at the water rock interface. This speed, depth of water plus abrasive shredded rock shaved the Precambrian depositing sedimentary rock on top, to great depths. We see these deposited layers and the underlying Precambrian at the Grand Canyon-testimony to the power of the flood.
---Warwick on 7/20/10


Micha answers my question better than Warwick.

But in that case, why no biblicsl reference to all those cataslymic events? Nothing about the violnece that would have been so apparent ... nothing about thw whole shape of the world being changed after after the waters receded.

I'm not convinced!
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/20/10


'atheist': "All you have to do is believe god did it, and stop thinking or wondering beyond that point."

With all due respect (and little there be of that), I freely do confess that God did it all - and that there is no other possible scientific explanation for the natural world we see.

You, on the other hand, admit that the Big Bang origin, the first life on earth, and Evolution itself (by virtue of insufficient time for fossil formation) are all scientifically and mathematically impossible. Yet you continue to assert that God did not do it - but you have no other explanation except "I don't know." Is that what you consider "thinking"?
---jerry6593 on 7/20/10


Alan:

Where did the water come from? Genesis 7:11 is very cataclysmic suggesting the ocean floors (Great deep) cracked open and subterranean waters poured forth for 153 days, until all the mountain on the whole earth were covered.

Where did the water go" Into the present oceans. Some Scriptures link our present seas with the floodwaters-Amos 9:6, Job 38:8.

Psalm 104:6-9 says the floodwaters flowed over the mountains, into the valleys, off the earth, to where God ordained they would go. And floodwaters would never come past the boundary God had set for them, never again to cover the earth. This rules out the flood being local.

Get 'The Creation Answers Book' where there is a whole chapter on this.
---Warwick on 7/19/10


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Alan, The earth did not produce the water, Jesus called those things which be not as though they were, saying, Let there be water: and there was water. "By the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." II Pt.3:5,6+ Hb.11:3.
---Eloy on 7/19/10


alan, basically the surface of the Earth went throught dramatic changes during the flood. The water table broke through along with volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, all in massive proportion. The water canopy was released causing a 40 day torrential downpour. Tectonic plates shifted dramatically causing massive collisions (mountains) and gaps(oceans). To think there was a worldwide flood while maintaining the impression that Mt Everest and other ranges were here before the flood would obviously be hard to swallow.
The geologic evidence much better suppports a catastophic event rather than a slow gradual process.
---micha9344 on 7/19/10


I have a real problem with this.

Where di all the water come from? There must have been huge holes left under the crust of the earth. Why did it not collapse?

If it had collapsed and caused our mountain ranges, why no mention of the catastrophic event?

And it if did collapse where did the water go to afterwards?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/19/10


Warwick, All told from the day the rain started 'till the earth began to drying up was 11 1/2 months. (Gen.7) so that all that rock erosion happened during that period of time???
6 million tons of water per minute flowing over Niagara Falls (Cdn. Horseshoe Falls) moves it back 3.8' in one year!
You think the erosion of the Precambrian shield happened in 11 1/2 months???

Some blond girls were having a party, when asked "what's the occasion?" One said "We put together a jig-saw puzzle in 51 days that the box said 2-4 years!"
It doesn't have to make sense!
---1st_cliff on 7/19/10


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There is none, and no good argument to the contrary has been offered on these blog entries.
p.s. Atheist your final comment to Jerry on 7/19 was kind of hypocritical?
---Glenn on 7/19/10


Eloy,
If your god existed and did what you claim he did, then he would be omnipotent. Being omnipotent he would have been able to leave a more easily understood reference than the Bible.
---atheist on 7/19/10


Interesting theory from your side. Problem is many see clearly...now. The fact you don't....well is an answer in itself.
Even Christ plainly says:Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Now perhaps if you were physically blinded like Saul, intead of just mentally....you might be able to see again. Hmmm, we could pray for this for you if you wish.
---Trav on 7/19/10


Trav,the local flood idea has never been proved. Scripture does not support a local flood. And it makes no sense in light of what Scripture does say.

For example:

How can a local flood rise aboue all the mountains under the entire heavens and not quickly flow away?

Why would God have Noah build a massive vessel to escape a local flood? Why not walk away?

Why would God bring so many animals to Noah if it was only a local event?

The deep fossil containing sedimentary layers are worldwide! See the Grand Canyon.

Scripture says the earth is a globe, and God surely knew that!

Read Genesis 7:19-23 and point out what refers to a local event.
---Warwick on 7/19/10


atheist, Your God who made you has given you the ability to ask him of the things that you do not know of, or of the things that you do not understand. But as a student whom refuses to study their textbook and to raise their hand in the classroom when they have a question, so are the unlearned whom refuse to study the scriptures and to ask God in prayer for answers, so that one remains in not knowing. You only get out of something, that what you put of yourself into it. If you really want to learn, then you must apply yourself. I have spent many many many years and many a sleepless night translating God's word, not because I do not care, but because I hunger and I thirst after righteousness, and therefore I am filled.
---Eloy on 7/19/10


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Jerry,

As far as ignorance is bliss, you are indeed far ahead of me on that count. All you have to do is believe god did it, and stop thinking or wondering beyond that point.

God is your theological basis for you infinite and no doubt eternal ignorance. Nothing to be ignorant about or not understand as long as you can believe and repeat the words, "God did it," providing you a complete explanation of absolutely nothing.
---atheist on 7/19/10


But you would have us believe, despite what Scripture says, it was a local flood which rose above all the mountains, but did not flow away. ---Warwick on 7/18/10

It was a LARGE 400,000 sq mi appx,local flood. As proven before. The sediment layers prove it was not a global flood.
The word Erets, meaning country, or land used over 1,200 times shows it was a land/country flood.
A double "kol" for people who thought the earth was flat just means they thought it was entire.
The diversity of tens of thousands of plants, reptiles, birds etc. Proves it was local.
You feel the great need to have come from Noah....so it must be Global for your doctrine....even against all "truth",evidences.
---Trav on 7/19/10


Eloy,

If your god existed and did what you claim he did, then he would be omnipotent. Being omnipotent he would have been able to leave a more easily understood reference than the Bible. Your accusation of Biblical illiteracy points not to people who don't try to understand the Bible, but to a god that isn't there, or one that is too incompetent to communicate his thoughts.
---atheist on 7/19/10


Cliff I don't imagine the rain produced a fraction of the floodwater that the fountains of the great deep poured forth, in 153 days. They poured forth until ALL the high mountains under the ENTIRE heavens were overflowed. It does not matter what original language this was written in to be translated into Hebrew, into English etc. These words mean just what they say-the flood waters rose above all the high mountains under the entire heavens. 'All' and 'entire' leave no room for there being any mountains which existed, under the entire heavens, not being covered. For this and other reasons the flood was universal.


How can floodwaters flow above all the mountains and not quickly flow away over them and the ever present valleys?
---Warwick on 7/19/10


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Cliff, 'day' is used with a number in Genesis 1.

It is used as a singular or plural with a number 410 times outside of Genesis and it always means an ordinary day.

'Evening' and 'morning' are used together without 'day' 38 times outside Genesis 1 and it always indicates an ordinary day.

'Evening' or 'morning' are used 23 times each with 'day' outside Genesis 1 and it
always means an ordinary day.

And 'night' is used with 'day' 52 times and it always indicates an ordinary day.

Yes I believe we can safely say the 6 'evening' and 'morning', 'night' and 'day' days of creation were six days, just like the two sets of 6 days in Exodus 20:8-11, and every 6 day working week since!
---Warwick on 7/19/10


Faith is fine but it's not evidence!--1st_cliff on 7/18/10
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Heb 11:7a,c By faith Noah...became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
2Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly,
---micha9344 on 7/18/10


jerry6593, You can see by the replies to your posting, whom professes the truth, and whom professes falsehood. Because there are many people which are Biblically illiterate, so they do not know the facts and details recorded in the the scriptures. And these unlearned people will either falsely say that no one knows the truth, and are ignorant to the truth just as they themself are, or else they will assert one of the various false theories of the world.
---Eloy on 7/18/10


"\\The Precambrian is essentially devoid of fossils [flood evidence].\\

Not true, jerry.

There are fossils of single celled creatures in pre-Cambrian strata. "

Boy are you obdurate! Single-celled animals and worm holes ARE NOT sufficient precursors for the plethora of creatures found in the Cambrian. The Precambrian IS ESSENTIALLY devoid of fossils - just as the ocean floor is today. Explain THAT!

And for the record, most of us on this site couldn't care less what your orthodox mother church teaches on the subject.
---jerry6593 on 7/19/10


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Warwick, Do you just gloss over my post?
I acknowledge the fact that scripture says it rained 40 days and nights ,20 ft above the mountains. The water then drained down to find it's level. (Some 3500 years ago) And lo and behold ..the "shield" appeared essentially as we see it today????
No! it doesn't work ..erosion of this magnitude is much older than 3500 years!especially when the erosion was of short duration.(receding flood water)
Let's stay within "reality"!
How fast does a glacier travel over 3 million sq.mi.??
---1st_cliff on 7/18/10


Oh, 1stcliff, you mean things that are found in marine sediment?
Amazing!!
---micha9344 on 7/18/10


Warwick, None of my posts have ever indicated a local flood..but your use of Hebrew grammar is questionable here. IE kol,double kol, There's no solid evidence that God spoke Hebrew to whom ever was listening at the time! and no historic record of writing pre flood.(Gen.7.)
So can we be dogmatic about kol double kol?? (or about day, followed by a number?)
Faith is fine but it's not evidence!
---1st_cliff on 7/18/10


Jerry, Fossils in the Pre-Cam shield are not as prolific as other places but they "are" there albeit of the Stromatolites and Chitinozoan type...but Fossils non the less!
---1st_cliff on 7/18/10


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Cliff if all else fails, read Scripture!

Genesis 7:11-23 tells us "all the springs of the great deep burst forth... And rain fell for forty days and nights. The flood waters rose until all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered...to a depth of more than twenty feet.'

All, entire, (Hebrew 'kol')or every are universal qualifiers. The use of 'kol' in Genesis 7:19-23 points to a global Flood. While single 'kol' may sometimes be local, double 'kol' must be universal.

But you would have us believe, despite what Scripture says, it was a local flood which rose above all the mountains, but did not flow away. And Noah did not walk away from the flood which he knew was coming!
---Warwick on 7/18/10


Cliff you made the statement, I asked for an explanation but you have not given one.

Why cannot the Precambrian shield be explained away in terms of a world wide flood?
---Warwick on 7/18/10


\\The Precambrian is essentially devoid of fossils [flood evidence].\\

Not true, jerry.

There are fossils of single celled creatures in pre-Cambrian strata.

In any case, the Orthodox Church teaches on the basis of Genesis 1 that creation was an orderly sequential event in stages. God freely created the universe out of the overabundance of His love.

Beyond this, she makes no comment about a young or old earth or universe.
---Cluny on 7/18/10


Cliff: "It [Precambrian shield] cannot be "explained away" in terms of a world wide flood! only supposition and conjecture!"

Whenever you see the word Precambrian, think pre-flood. The Precambrian is essentially devoid of fossils [flood evidence]. The Cambrian is just above the Precambrian and touches it. It is profuse with fossils.
---jerry6593 on 7/18/10


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Warwick,It rained for 40 days and nights ,right? Erosion or gouging by water depends on "flow" Once the valleys and low areas were filled there's no flow!
How long the waters took to recede no one knows,except it finds it's level in a short time.
How long does it take water flow to erode rock?
6million tons of water flow over Niagara Falls every minute.eroding maybe 4 inches in 40 days!
Precambrian shield covers more than 3 million sq. mi.!
---1st_cliff on 7/18/10


'atheist': "Imagine that. Only Jerry went to library to figure it all out?!"

Too bad you didn't. They say ignorance is bliss. You must be a happy guy.
---jerry6593 on 7/17/10


Eloy nowhere in Scripture does it say "1 day to God in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth to man."

The verse usually given to show this does not say this at all. Just the opposite. It demonstrates that God is eternal and therefore does not live in time, not in days of any length. 2 Peter 3:8 "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." This cancels itself out and does not apportion any day length to God.

If the days of creation were 1000 years each then Adam did not survive until the end of the first day of rest!
---wARWICK on 7/17/10


Cliff why cannot the Precambrian shield be explained away in terms of a world wide flood?
---Warwick on 7/17/10


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\\This will bring us precisely to Friday afternoon on April 1st, 4194 B.C. is when Jesus created Adam.\\

And how did you come up with that date? I mean, why Friday afternoon, 1 April? Why couldn't it have been Friday morning 2 May?

**Ignats: (Were you named after the Jesuit founder?) **

jerry, as has been made clear repeatedly, the Roman Church fell away from Orthodoxy in 1054. Ignatius Loyola lived several centuries after this.

Therefore, it follows that the Ignatius here, who is Orthodox, was named after another Ignatius.

It was probably St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was the child Jesus put in His lap when He said, "Suffer the little children..."
---Cluny on 7/17/10


Atheist you wrote "complete with us having memories and libraries proving a history prior to last Thursday" means what?

We believe that a super-intelligent being created all that exists. But you believe the universe and all that is in it made itself via chance random, unguided processes. And you think that is an intelligent position?

In reality the majority of the evidence points to an earth far too young for evolution to have 'created' all there is.

A challenge for you: What is your best evidence which demonstrates that the earth is x billion years old?

BTW would you like a copy of Dr Sarfati's book-The Greatest Hoax on Earth-as I previously offered.
---Warwick on 7/17/10


atheist what Jerry is saying he did his research to come to his conclusions.

I do not think you have done similar research and you attempt to mock him for this!
---Warwick on 7/17/10


Jerry,

Imagine that. Only Jerry went to library to figure it all out?!
---atheist on 7/17/10


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according to the scripture 1 day to God in heaven is equal to 1000 years on earth to man, and Adam the first man was created on the sixth day. Now the year of creation is obtained from counting back the genealogies or the years from each child's birth. This will bring us precisely to Friday afternoon on April 1st, 4194 B.C. is when Jesus created Adam. Now add 6000 years for God's 1000 to 1 ratio to 4194 B.C., and the year of creation is 10194 B.C. The Bible reads that Abib, which is April, is the beginning of months, and consider that God would not cause to spring from the earth, the green grass and the green herbs in the snow of winter. Thus according to the scripture, the world was created on the night of April 1st 10194 B.C.
---Eloy on 7/17/10


If the Flood was world-wide, where did the water come from?
And where did it go to afterwards?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/17/10


Ignats: (Were you named after the Jesuit founder?)

"Take a university class in Biology, Geology, Anthropology, & Paleontology and you will find the answer- the Earth is much older than 6,000 years old."

I took all of those many years ago, and you're right, they taught that the earth was 3.5 B years old. Over my lifetime, the earth's age has increased by 1 B years - according to them. But when I went to the library and studied radiometric dating methods in detail, I found that they were all fraught with unfounded assumptions, and could have given any age one wanted to prove his pre-existing paradigm.
---jerry6593 on 7/17/10


I live on the edge of the "Precambrian shield" (a unit of North American craton) where geologists from all over the globe come to see and study it's metamorphic rock, like a giant text book of time!
It cannot be "explained away" in terms of a world wide flood! only supposition and conjecture!
---1st_cliff on 7/17/10


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Because of his scientific training Jerry knows the earth's age cannot be scientifically proved.---Warwick.

Similiarly, you and Jerry know that the "theory" of Last Thursdayism, (God created the universe last Thursday complete with us having memories and libraries proving a history prior to last Thursday),making the earth less than a week old all the time, cannot be disproved either.

To you that is ridiculous, although the idea that god spoke the universe into creation around 6-10,000 years ago is not. (And all science pointing to an older age is just wrong, being bad science.)

You got your faith, and it is blind...
---atheist on 7/17/10


Larry,

a definition:

Numerology is any of many systems, traditions or beliefs in a mystical or esoteric relationship between numbers and physical objects or living things.

Numerology and numerological divination by systems such as isopsephy were popular among early mathematicians, such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered part of mathematics and are regarded as pseudomathematics by modern scientists.

Kinda like astrology vs. astronomy.

So you use superstition as the basis for you statistics? Odd...
---atheist on 7/17/10


Ignatius, regarding Jerry your "obsessed" could be someone else's committed.

Because of his scientific training Jerry knows the earth's age cannot be scientifically proved. If it could every scientist would believe in the billions of years, but thousands don't.

Jerry knows God's word says the earth is only thousands of years old. In fact Jesus attests to this, saying man appeared at creations beginning, not billions of years later.

Jerry also knows any attempt to place long ages in Scripture places death, disease and struggle before sin. But the Gospel says death, and disease are a consequence of sin. The Christian who accepts the unproven long-ages view is undermining the very foundation of the only gospel!
---Warwick on 7/16/10


The best evidence may be the number of people now on the face of the earth. The re-population would suggest a sentinel event such as a flood 5 or 6-thousand years ago where mankind essentially started again.
Otherwise the population undeterred from millions of years ago would be the current population to the 10th power according to some numerologists.

Not you Jerry, but those who suggest the lack of a definitive year or age is proof the bible is little more than a fable wouldn't believe God if the date was printed on their forehead.
Hypocrites.
---larry on 7/16/10


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Cliff,

The world was created in the spring time at night on April 1st, 10194 B.C. (Genesis 2:2,4-6+ Exodus 12:2).
---Eloy on 7/12/10

So does that fit your timeframe?

Warwick,

How did oil get here, and was it made by god or geologic processes? And how long did those geologic processes take, if god did not make all the oil?

Not talking until I explain where matter came from? I do not know. Nor do I know where oil comes from...

But I think oil came after matter so it must be more recent than 12204 years old.

I know. I know. This is a slippery question...
---atheist on 7/16/10


My salvation rests neither upon the age of the earth nor what I believe it to be.
---Cluny on 7/16/10


To quote Dr Tas Walker (geologist) regarding the age of the earth "We can make observations to determine the shape of the earth. That is operational science. But we cant make observations to check the age of anything. We cannot travel back in time to make the needed measurements. Thus, every calculated age depends on assumptions. Don Batten has assembled a list of 101 evidences for a young earth. He stopped at 101 but there are many, many more (search our site for 101 evidences). So there is evidence for an old earth and evidence for a young earth. How are we going to determine which is right? Have a vote on it? It would be nice if there was someone who was there to make observations. And there was!" Continued
---Warwick on 7/16/10


Dr Tas Walker continued "Interestingly, Jesus believed in a young earth. Of course, the gospel does not make sense in an earth millions-of-years old. As you are no doubt aware, that idea places death and suffering before Adam and Eve and disconnects death from sin. In our ministry to the churches we find that when the scientific evidences for creation and a young earth are presented to people that they come to faith in Christ. Their stumbling blocks are cleared away."

For the Christian the question should be settled as God has given us His chronologies which measure approximately 4,000 years from Adam to Jesus.

I have faith in God. Evolutionists have faith in unproveable figures.
---Warwick on 7/16/10


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Atheist, Sure it "could" have, but I think the things I listed are much more than 6 thousand years old maybe not millions but certainly,thosands!
---1st_cliff on 7/16/10


1stcliff, all except galaxy distance are evidence of the woorldwide flood.
I could explain each of this in light of that but you are not willing ot listen anyhow.
As for galaxies, atheist actually hit that better, even in his sarcastic undertone.
The only way galaxy distance is an issue is if you started with the elements all in one place, like the big bang nonsense.
Interpreting the Bible according to current thinking has not worked well in the past.
What makes you think present imaginations that contraict the Bible are true.
I await to count your exclamation points.
---micha9344 on 7/16/10


Take a university class in Biology, Geology, Anthropology, & Paleontology and you will find the answer- the Earth is much older than 6,000 years old.

Perhaps it will be in your best interest to read The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth by Davis A. Young and Ralph F. Stearley, two Christian Geologist. You will also find evidence in Talkorigins (dot org).

Although it seem that Jerry is not interested in learning, but want to start the same old topic. Does anyone here think Jerry is a robot? How many blogs do one have to make on the same topic and people saying the same things here? Boy...jerry so obsessed with the subject.....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 7/16/10


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