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Noah's Ark Clean Animals

How did the ones who wrote about the animals that went into Noah's boat know which were clean and which were unclean? The Levitical food laws were given centuries later.

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 ---leej on 7/16/10
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We need to acknowledge the fact that those who wrote the Pentatuech - the first 5 books of Moses - did so when Moses was alive and from the perspective of what then constituted the Mosaic law.

While they used those oral traditions handed downward from previous generations, there is virtual no evidence that any of the dietary laws, sabbath observances, etc. were ever observed prior to the time of Moses.

It is very important to realize that the Church is not under the Mosaic law as this was the dominant issue at the Jerusalem Council Acts 15.
---leej on 10/8/10


Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

You can have the shadow, francis.

I'll take the substance.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Quit testing God, francis.
---Cluny on 7/27/10


lee, Didn't Moses write the first five books of the Bible? or so many think he did.
---kathr4453 on 7/27/10


francis:

We as Christians do not sanctify ourselves. Christ sanctifies us. We do not purify ourselves. Christ purifies us. So this verse does not apply to us.

On the other hand those who seek to win God's approval by obeying this law and that law and this other law...
---StrongAxe on 7/27/10


Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
---FRANCIS on 7/27/10




Happy Birthday Cluny! ENJOY!

(Sorry I just know you cats name)
---John on 7/27/10


I had a gin and tonic and a bacon blue burger.

You get that? BEEF, DAIRY, and SWINE'S FLESH-all mixed up together.

Deal with it, francis.
Cluny on 7/27/10

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

LOL You know we somtimes think that those who say there is no God as eithiests, but it is those who live as if there is no God who are such.

God has delt with it
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
---francis on 7/27/10


Perhaps one day Francis will learn to understand that the verse pertains to those who would 'sojourneth with you' meaning those who have joined themselves to the nation of Israel.
leej on 7/26/10

And with whom did God make a covenant if not Israel and Judah?
And those of us who are not Hebrew are we not grafted into the covenant?

Cluny on 7/26/10
First of all Sabbath or diet is NOT an issue. It cannot be an issue because it is clearly stated more than 7 times in the word of God.

You may take issue with Gods word, but Gods word is unchanging

Second Koshar is cultural not biblical.
Koshar includes more than just eating clean meats,
---francis on 7/26/10


FWIW, today, 26 July, is my 60th birthday.

I celebrated with three of my dearest friends, including my pastor and his wife.

Among other things, I had a gin and tonic and a bacon blue burger.

You get that? BEEF, DAIRY, and SWINE'S FLESH--all mixed up together.

The ultimate in tref and shatnaze (mixing of kinds).

Deal with it, francis.
---Cluny on 7/27/10


The smartest thing to do on the subject of diet is to return to the original diet which the Creator gave mankind in the Garden of Eden. It was bloodless! No worry about clean or unclean then!

In Heaven and then on the New Earth, there will be no death and our diets will be a bloodless one again! Why not start now?

Many have never had better health than when they went on the Edenic diet. Part of their motivation was discovering that it was the urine in the blood that gave meat its flavor!
---Ernest_1 on 7/27/10




Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

let me anticipate your answer: You answer is: THE DOCTRINES, CHANGE JESUS IS THE SAME

Romans 15:27 For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things,

LET me guess only THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SPIRITUAL THINGS NON HEBREWS SHARE

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Let me guess: YOU ARE UNDER THE NEW "NEW COVENANT" MADE WITH THE GENTILES
---francis on 7/27/10


Perhaps one day Francis will learn to understand that the verse pertains to those who would 'sojourneth with you' meaning those who have joined themselves to the nation of Israel.

Poor soul, he has been so misled that he thinks all Christians are Jewish and have joined themselves to the nation of Israel.

Is there really any hope for him in finding out the truth?
---leej on 7/26/10

More hope for his search than yours, as you profess to have arrived already, rabbi-ness/pro-fessor. You also presume jews=All Israel.
There are 11 variations of strangers in scripture.
Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
---Trav on 7/27/10


Cluny -

Numbers 15:15 ONE ORDINANCE [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the STRANGER that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the STRANGER be before the LORD.

Perhaps one day Francis will learn to understand that the verse pertains to those who would 'sojourneth with you' meaning those who have joined themselves to the nation of Israel.

Poor soul, he has been so misled that he thinks all Christians are Jewish and have joined themselves to the nation of Israel. However, he ignores the fact that most Christians, even sabbaterians, do not adhere to all the laws of Judaism.

Is there really any hope for him in finding out the truth?
---leej on 7/26/10


So this is how it starts.

First, it's making an issue of the Saturday Sabbath.

Now it has progressed to keeping kosher.

Can you all see where this is leading, people?

You can practice quasi-judaism if you like, francis.

I'd rather be a Christian, myself.
---Cluny on 7/26/10


Numbers 15:15 ONE ORDINANCE [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the STRANGER that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the STRANGER be before the LORD.

Acts 10:34 God is no respecter of persons:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

If these statements are true, then why would God change hiS doctrine, or why would God alLow STRANGERS to eat WHAT IS UNCLEAN?

Romans 3:4 yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
---francis on 7/26/10


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith,

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

This has to apply to all doctrines.
This is one sure way to know whether or not you are in the will of God.

You cannot say that this doctrine is the same, and this one is not.
All doctrines including diet and sabbath must be the same yesterday, TODAY, and forever or else God is a liar.
If you doctrines change with time, you are not in the church.
---francis on 7/26/10


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You believe what you want to believe, francis.

I'll believe the Bible:

Romans 14

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself.

Hear that, francis? NO FOOD IS UNCLEAN IN ITSELF.

17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

Quit trying to tempt God and put a yoke upon Gentiles that no Jew was able to bear, francis! Acts 19:10
---Cluny on 7/26/10


francis //Do you not know that not eating blood and things strangled are all part of ONE law: the dietary law

Much like the law that stated one must be physically circumcised otherwise that person cannot be part of the covenant of God. Gen. 17:14

It is a simple matter and easy to see that nowhere in the New Testament is there even a hint of a command that Gentile converts needed to observe any of the dietary laws.

Your problem is a very common one, namely you fail to distinguish the covenant given ONLY to the Jewish people and the one which included the Gentiles. Apparently you hold the belief that we all became Jewish upon becoming Christians. But that is totally contrary to the decree of the Jerusalem council Acts 15.
---leej on 7/26/10


francis:

God repented (i.e. changed his mind) of creating man.

Genesis 6:6-7
"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart..."

While the New Testament condemns being double-minded (James 1:6-8), it encourages repentance.

Yet the Bible itself is double-minded about whether God repents or not:

Numbers 23:19 (also 1 Samuel 15:29)
"God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
---StrongAxe on 7/26/10


What was the reason the laws of clean and unclean were given? Think for a moment that only one pair of unclean animals went on the Ark with Noah so they could not be eaten for if you did then you would cause those animals to go extinct.

Now some here go on about that we can be saved and still eat unclean foods others try to judge each others by their eating habits.

It is wrong to judge each other on food Paul makes that clear. But does that make eating food that GOD declares unfit to eat good for you. No. This is about being healthy. I remeber when a local Baptist minister preached against it. Even Joel Olsten has said eating unclean food is bad for us. Does GOD care about our health?
---Samuel on 7/26/10


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\\We in this blog have made our Lord/ God out to be a double minded man who has more respect for one group than another

We make God out to be a man who said that something is unclean, yet he directs man to eat something unclean.\\

Speak for yourself, francis.

YOU are the only one trying to say that the kashuroth are obligatory on everybody.

Neither Testament teaches that.
---Cluny on 7/26/10


James 1:8 A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.

We in this blog have made our Lord/ God out to be a double minded man who has more respect for one group than another

We make God out to be a man who said that something is unclean, yet he directs man to eat something unclean.

We made God out to be a man who at one time restrict the diet of his people, and at another time have no restrictions.

We has accused God os have one dietary law for jews and one seperate laws for none hebrews.

Surely, if you think that God changes that much you do not yet know God.
---francis on 7/26/10


whereas the Jerusalem council decided that Gentiles need abstain from things strangled and from eating blood, Romans 14 is very clear that one may eat whatever foods one desires.

The problem with our Sabbaterian friends like Jerry, is that they have to ignore the principle that scripture must interpret scripture in order to support their misguided and erroneous doctrinal beliefs.

And liken to the Pharisees, use such external things to judge others, not realizing that they really support a works soteriology.
---leej on 7/26/10


The command to 'abstain from...things strangled and from blood' was simply a compromise made in order not to offend the Jewish believers that were among the Gentiles.
leej on 7/26/10

LOL how do you seperate one part of the dietary law from another?
Do you not know that not eating blood and things strangled are al part of ONE law: the dietary law
---francis on 7/26/10


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jerry6593:

While gentile Christians were told to abstain from things strangled and from blood, nowhere were they commanded to observe any of the other Levitical dietary laws (for example, not eating pork or shrimp or catfish, seething a calf in its mother's milk, etc.)

If someone is commanded to obey two commandments out of a set of dozens, you can't really say he is obligated to keep all of those commandments, any more than you can say that the United States (and every other country, for that matter) is bound by Leviticus because it has laws against murder.
---StrongAxe on 7/26/10


//Act 15:20 But we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The command to 'abstain from...things strangled and from blood' was simply a compromise made in order not to offend the Jewish believers that were among the Gentiles.

As to your comment on carnal mind, those that are genuine Christians do not have carnal minds as scripture attests.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

And now you know why I am do not belong to your sect as I have chosen to follow Jesus and all of His teachings rather than with those who sought to kill Him - the Sabbath keepers. Ps.1:1
---leej on 7/26/10


Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth

It is the duty of the Jews to be a light to the gentiles: to teach them about God, the ways of God, the salvation of God, the Law of God, to include The sabbath, since God is also their creator, and the dietary laws because God is no respector of pesons.
---francis on 7/25/10


lee: "And since the Levitical dietary laws were never imposed on Gentile converts"

Not so. I've showed you before the Levitical dietary laws in the New Testament, e.g.:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

How is it that you keep forgetting facts that don't agree with your lawless paradigm? You also claim that you are free from the Ten Commandment Law.

Rom 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
---jerry6593 on 7/26/10


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\\At this point in time, you guys are just being funny. I mean come on are you guys for real, or is this arguement for arguement sake.
---francis on 7/23/10\\

I think you're the one simply being argumentative, francis.

The Bible in both Testaments makes it clear that the Gentiles were NEVER bound to the kashuroth.
---Cluny on 7/24/10


//Why not just OBEy god and do not eat anything unclean simple because God said it.

Pork (as well as fish) is the primary diet for most in Asian countries.

And since the Levitical dietary laws were never imposed on Gentile converts, it is simply a matter of accepting the scriptural view that what we eat or do not eat have nothing to do with our spirituality or relationship to God.

Col.2:20f If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations,
"Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch"
(referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines?
---leej on 7/24/10


leej, thanks for your kind reply.

Concerning the early NT Christians: Their Bible was the Old Testament, - also the Bible Jesus used, - so there was no reason needed to repeat what was clearly written for their benefit.

However, dietary laws were reaffirmed in the NT , with 1 Peter 1:15-16 reminding them they needed to be holy, from Leviticus 11:44,45 summing up the clean and unclean laws there.

Concerning the Sabbath, Hebrews 4:9 reminded Christians that there was still a "Sabbatismos" - keeping of a Sabbath, for the people of God.

Because Jesus is my Creator, as well as Saviour and Redeemer I delight to do these things and I have been blessed accordingly.
---Ernest_1 on 7/24/10


At this point in time, you guys are just being funny. I mean come on are you guys for real, or is this arguement for arguement sake.
---francis on 7/23/10


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Some of your suffestion makes God dound like he makes it up as he goes along
You guys are funny
Why not just OBEy god and do not eat anything unclean simple because God said it.


James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners, and purify [your] hearts,
---francis on 7/23/10


Ernest_1 - good reply concerning Isaiah 56. However have you ever wondered if the church was to keep the Levitical dietary laws as well as the Sabbath, then why do we not see it expressed in the New Testament.

what we see in the NT is Romans 14 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

and -

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Could it be that the church is not under the Old Covenant dispensation but under the New?
---leej on 7/23/10


leej,
It may be good to check out Isaiah 56 and the invitation God gave for non-Jews to gather in His "house of prayer for all people" in order for them to be saved. He also had for them laws and instructions. If there were none for Gentiles on the "clean and unclean" then God would be a monster to threaten to destroy them when He comes (Isaiah 66:15-17) if they are eating the abomination (see Leviticus 11) swine's flesh and mouse etc.
---Ernest_1 on 7/23/10


//They were in the boat over a year and none had offspring? Chickens that can lay 300 eggs a year? Are you telling us the food chain halted while on the ark?

Very interesting point!!!

Do you suppose God had Noah load a few tons of saltpeter onto the Ark as well?

The entire story, like the Creation story, is so very brief and devoid of any details that we are left to assume too much.
---leej on 7/23/10


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'There were two of every unclean beast in the ark. To eat just one would have defeated the purpose of trying to preseve the species.'-francis on 7/22/10
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
They were in the boat over a year and none had offspring? Chickens that can lay 300 eggs a year? Are you telling us the food chain halted while on the ark?
But man was vegetarian at this point anyhow, so any evidence toward clean and unclean only points toward sacrifice.
---micha9344 on 7/22/10


frances - some food could be classified as unclean and clean but there may not have been until much later any associated command not to eat of them.

Perhaps the terms only designated what animals could be properly used as altar sacrifices (ie. ceremonial clean & unclean)

Anyone with any spiritual discernment could easily see that the Levitical food laws were not instituted until the time of Moses and that according to most counsel was simply to act as a means of separating the Jews from other peoples similar to the observance of the Sabbath(s) and other conduct of their worship..

Any any case, there were no dietary laws imposed on the Gentile church. Doubtful if anyone would care to argue that point.
---leej on 7/22/10


\\Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
leej on 7/22/10

This show a lack of spirtual disernment
After God has said that some of them were unclean, why then ask Noah to eat what is unclean. The very word unclean should suggest that you do not want to eat it.\\

My understanding is that quoting the EXACT words God said in the Bible shows GREAT spiritual discernment.

Or are you saying God has no spiritual discernment?
---Cluny on 7/22/10


Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
leej on 7/22/10

This show a lack of spirtual disernment
After God has said that some of them were unclean, why then ask Noah to eat what is unclean. The very word unclean should suggest that you do not want to eat it.

Also shows a lack of wisdom and maturity,
There were two of every unclean beast in the ark. To eat just one would have defeated the purpose of trying to preseve the species.
---francis on 7/22/10


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\\...You are saying that Eve SINNED before sin entered the world
---francis on 7/22/10\\

Actually, God had said nothing about not lying up to that point. And don't forget, Rahab the Harlot was called righteous for lying to save the Hebrew spies.

I will not presume to say that Eve was lying. I suggest that Eve had become confused and was was putting words in God's mouth.

There is as much evidence for my scenario as for your a priori assumption that God had told Eve not to touch the fruit.

With this difference--I have no a priori assumptions. I'm just going by what the Biblical text actually says, and then drawing conclusions.
---Cluny on 7/22/10


When did the Lord decide to restrict the Jews from eating certain foods?

Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Me thinketh that those who believe they must observe the Jewish food laws really believe themselves to be Jews. But they fail to understand that such Jewish laws were not imposed on the Gentiles. Acts 15 is very clear on that.
---leej on 7/22/10


Cluny, no matter what, i do have respect for you and your posts. I do enjoy posting where you post even, and maybe especially since we do not always agree.
---francis on 7/22/10


These words were clearly added by Eve to God's instructions in her conversation with the serpent in Genesis 3:3.
Cluny on 7/22/10

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

I would think that yu would know that eve did not lie. Sin had not entered the world. maybe, just maybe that is the authors way of telling us More of what God said.

You are saying that Eve SINNED before sin entered the world
---francis on 7/22/10


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\\ Somethings you would expect from young christians. Post that say that Eve added that God said the tree sold not be touched, \\

francis, I've been a Christian for the better part of fifty years. I know the Bible in 3 languages and 17 translation.

If you knew the Bible, you would know that in Genesis 2:16-17, God said NOTHING about touching the Tree of Knowledge.

These words were clearly added by Eve to God's instructions in her conversation with the serpent in Genesis 3:3.

**By now most of you should have figured all those things out already, if not through genesis, but on other books of the bible.**

I've figured out that you don't know the Bible as well as you want us to think you do.
---Cluny on 7/22/10


Somethings you would expect from young christians. Post that say that Eve added that God said the tree sold not be touched, Cain and Abel not being told what to sacrifice, jacob maybe sacrifing unclean animals, even the very notion that the laws of clean and unclean were not known until leviticus, those are not for mature christians.

By now most of you should have figured all those things out already, if not through genesis, but on other books of the bible.
---francis on 7/22/10


Francis, just because God made tonics of skin and clothed them, does not mean he gave instructions for them to sacrifice animals. One (Able) was a keeper of the sheep, the other (Cain) was a keeper of the ground. No where does God say what sacrifice would be pleasing. So since Able was keeper of the sheep, he brought his firstborn of his flock of sheep as a sacrifice, and Cain who was keeper of the ground, brought an offering of fruit.
Second, Rev. 13:8 is speaking of Christ who is the Lamb, for we are told that Christ was "foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" in 1 Peter 1:20. You want to connect passages out of context to make your point, but God never said what kind of gift to bring.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/10


Francis 2: as with the Sabbath, you want to say things not written in Scripture. It would be easy for anyone to come to their own conclusions, if they took everything out of context. You could build many theologies. But God has only one meaning in His passages, there might be many applications but only one meaning that God wanted to convey.
You called me a hypocrite and then self-righteous for no good reason at all. All I have done is given the passages in its context, I do not believe I have called you any slanderious remarks. You do not have to answer if it bothers you that much. Godly discussions can only be done correctly by genuine Christians, in order that they can be edified.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/10


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Francis, Cain and Abel were never told what kind of sacrifice to give.
Mark_V. on 7/22/10

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of LAMB
Slain from the foundation of the world.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

USING THE whole bible WE ARE 100% SURE.
---francis on 7/22/10


Cluny, Just because there was no record of God telling people before the Law what could and couldn't be used as sacrifice, does that mean God couldn't have told them what to offer. Maybe they reached a conclusion based on God's "sacrifice" of an animal to provide adequate clothing for Adam and Eve? Do you really think that the Bible contains EVERY word God has ever spoken? Even John said in his Gospel account that not all that the Lord did was recorded because there would not be sufficient room for all the books it would require to tell everything. If God had arbitrarily rejected Cain's offering without having told people what to offer, would He have been just?
---tommy3007 on 7/22/10


Francis, Cain and Abel were never told what kind of sacrifice to give. In fact God was judging their hearts by their sacrifices. God liked Abel's gift of an animal which would be a shadow of the blood of Christ as a sacrifice for our sins. No mentioned is given what kind of sacrifices to give until the law was given. And it wasn't because the animals were bad, or the Tree in the garden bad so as not to eat, but it was for obedience of what God said. When Adam failed, he failed the law of works of obedience. Everything in the Old Testament is concering obedience to God. Through Christ we now have the Spirit of God to help each one of us be more obedient, because we are not under the condemnation of the law if we fail to be obedient.
---Mark_V. on 7/22/10


Eve made that statement about touching the tree BEFORE she ate, thus before sin. Eve had never sinned before which means Eve had never lied before. Thus being without sin her statement MUST be 100% what god said.

With Abel: God made the very first sacrifice, shedding blood for sin. the phrase " in the process of time" Is an indicationg at when they became accountable they started making their own sacrifies.

As to the posibility that Jacob may have sacrifice anything unclean: Jacob came way after noah, way after god has establish clearly clean and unclean. No chance what he offered TO GOD was unclean.
---francis on 7/22/10


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Cluny, francis is very good at eisegeses.
---micha9344 on 7/21/10


\\Where is the EVIDENCE for this in Genesis?
Cluny on 7/21/10
Genesis 4:4
Genesis 46:1
Genesis 15:9
Genesis 22:13
Genesis 22:13
---francis on 7/21/10\\

There is nothing in Genesis 4:4 that says that God TOLD Abel to do so.

Genesis 15 and 22 are instructions given to Abraham personally.

Genesis 46 simply says that Israel (Jacob) offered sacrifice. The verse doesn't say what the victim/s was/were.
---Cluny on 7/21/10


Where is the EVIDENCE for this in Genesis?
Cluny on 7/21/10
Genesis 4:4
Genesis 46:1
Genesis 15:9
Genesis 22:13
Genesis 22:13
---francis on 7/21/10


\\Since there were offerings made to the LORD before the Law was given to Israel, wouldn't it stand to reason that God told those who were sacrificing to Him which animals He would accept as offerings?\\

Where is the EVIDENCE for this in Genesis?

According to the Bible itself, God was curiously silent on this subject until AFTER the Exodus.

The taboo against swine is not peculiar to Judaism. Mahometans have a similar horror of pork, even to the point of forbidding smoked turkey strips, lest faux bacon give a taste for the real thing.
---Cluny on 7/21/10


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This is a commandment ONLY for Jews.
Gentiles were never bound by the kashuroth.
Cluny on 7/21/10

Noah was not a jew
abraham was not a jew
jacob wa snot a jew
Moses was not a jew
No one who left Egypt was a jew

Lets not forget: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily, and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

God's alws are for Gods people Jew/ hebrew or greek none hebrew.
---francis on 7/21/10


'do you know how many deadly disease are cause dby eating things unclean.'-francis on 7/20/10
You mean like:
mad cow disease?
hoof and mouth disease?
anthrax?
avian flu?
chicken pox?...jk...
---micha9344 on 7/21/10


Since there were offerings made to the LORD before the Law was given to Israel, wouldn't it stand to reason that God told those who were sacrificing to Him which animals He would accept as offerings? It is clear that from the time of the Fall forward there were sacrifices being offered as we see in the story of Cain and Abel's offerings. Cain's sacrifice was rejected because he offered of the fruit of the ground which he had grown instead of a blood offering like Abel's.
---tommy3007 on 7/21/10


Cluny //This is a commandment ONLY for Jews.
Gentiles were never bound by the kashuroth.

Very true, but many Sabbaterians consider themselves to be Jews.

Genesis 9:3-4 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Kosher laws were never in effect until the time of Moses.

But that Jesus fella' told us that what goes into the stomach goes out the drain and does not defile us. 'He thus declared all foods clean'. Mk. 7:19
---leej on 7/21/10


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\\My poit is that the tree was good, good to lock at, tasted good and everything. But God commanded that they should not touch it.\\

Wrong.

God never said not to touch it. This was an addition to God's commandment made by Eve.

Read it for yourself in Genesis 3.

\\In the same manner God ceated swine and it was good, ( no not the ribs or chops) The live swine. God also commandmented that it be not eaten.\\

This is a commandment ONLY for Jews.

Gentiles were never bound by the kashuroth.
---Cluny on 7/21/10


My poit is that the tree was good, good to lock at, tasted good and everything. But God commanded that they should not touch it.

In the same manner God ceated swine and it was good, ( no not the ribs or chops) The live swine. God also commandmented that it be not eaten.

God is soveriegn, and WISE do you know how many deadly disease are cause dby eating things unclean.
---francis on 7/20/10


\\And consider the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Nothing was wrong with that tree. It produced fruit jst as any other, maybe even just like the tree of life and God also said that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was very good. Yet he forbad them to even tocu it\\

Most ancient Orthodox Christian writers consider the prohibiting eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge to be only temporary.

Not all food--or knowledge--is suitable for all people, especially babies.
---Cluny on 7/20/10


And since God in Genesis 1 declared that everything He made was "very good", how did HE determine what was clean and unclean in animals?

Cows and goats are hardly more clean by nature than are bears and crocodiles.
Cluny on 7/19/10

And consider the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Nothing was wrong with that tree. It produced fruit jst as any other, maybe even just like the tree of life and God also said that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was very good. Yet he forbad them to even tocu it.

Very good question though.
---FRANCIS on 7/20/10


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cluny: "how did HE determine what was clean and unclean in animals?"

Duh... He's God. He designed them. He should know.

"Cows and goats are hardly more clean by nature than are bears and crocodiles." You don't know animals very well, do you? Besides, you seem to assert that you are smarter than God, since you are contradicting Him.
---jerry6593 on 7/20/10


\\LOL before the flood people were making animal sacrifices. Do you really think they were oddering to God unclean animals?\\

And since God in Genesis 1 declared that everything He made was "very good", how did HE determine what was clean and unclean in animals?

Cows and goats are hardly more clean by nature than are bears and crocodiles.
---Cluny on 7/19/10


leej on 7/18/10

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You seem to have very limited understanding of the biblical literature and scriptures.

So let me help you:
Every book of the bible has a "theme" or purpose. The theme of Genesis is NOT TO GIVE THE LAW but to show how things began.

All ten commandments are scatered throughout genesis.
Laws of tithe
Dietary laws
Laws dealing with modest dress also in genesis

Before Moses there were already laws as evident by exodus 16
Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
( GUESS WHAT SPICIFIC LAW)
---francis on 7/19/10


francis - comment on Gen. 26:5 "The language is interpretative for Abraham did NOT have all these laws. The terms are legal designations for sections of the Mosaic law and presuppose the existence of the law. Some Rabbinic views actually conclude that Abraham had fulfilled the whole law before it was given. Some scholars argue that this story could only have been written AFTER the law as given. BUT the SIMPLEST explanation is that the narrator (Moses) simply elaborated on the simple report of Abraham's obedience by using terms with which the Israelites were familiar. In this way he depicts Abraham as the model of obedience to God's commands. whose example Israel should follow." NET Study Bible.
---leej on 7/18/10


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LOL before the flood people were making animal sacrifices. Do you really think they were oddering to God unclean animals?

Ofcourse not. Clean and uncelan were knows from the begining
---francis on 7/18/10


The ones brought to Noah from God by sevens were considered clean to sacrifice, he just had to count..))
Which, by the way were only beasts of the earth. All the flying creatures were brought to Noah by sevens, yet some were declared unclean by Levitical dietary law.
Gen 7:2-3 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
BTW, if the clean came by 14, then the unclean came by 4. Still plenty of room in a 3 million cubic foot freightliner.
---micha9344 on 7/18/10


The distinction between the clean and unclean animals must have been a universal one because it was obviously known when Noah accepted into the ark two of each unclean animal and fourteen of the clean, Gen.7:2 (see margin). Then at the End of time when the LORD comes again we are told in Isaiah 66:15-17 that those who are eating the "abomination" (term for the unclean in Lev.11) and the swine and mouse He says He is going to destroy. No wonder Peter said 40 years after Christ died that He had never eaten anything that was unclean!
---Ernest_1 on 7/18/10


Duh! "Thou shalt not kill" was also written centuries after Cain killed Able, yet murder seemed to be wrong at that point. Go figure!
---jerry6593 on 7/17/10


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Ok with all joking aside ARE YOU KIDDING?

Did you not know that before the flood people were making animal sacrifices?

So you not also understand that the PURPOSE of GENESIS is NOT to give the law, but tell how things got started.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did you see a list of laws given to abraham?
Yet God said abraham obey his laws?

Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

WHAT COMMANDMENTS? We have not even gotten to exodus 20 yet.

The purpose of genesis is NOT the given of the laws. But ALL the laws are in genesis.
---FRANCIS on 7/17/10


"How did the ones who wrote... know which were clean and which were unclean?"
He wrote as he was inspired. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God."
---josef on 7/17/10


\\That would mean that Genesis was written centuries later.I agree on this.
---earl on 7/16/10\\

If Moses wrote the Torah, as traditionally believed, of COURSE it was written centuries later.

But this would mean that the distinction between clean and unclean animals was something added by Moses, possibly as a gloss (or a footnote, were he writing it today), to the story itself.
---Cluny on 7/17/10


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