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Are Christian Politics Biblical

Is it good for christians to get involved in political issues?

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 ---Mahad on 7/22/10
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strongaxe 2: if there was books that should have been included and were not, it is because they were not suppose to be in there. God did not leave it to man's opinions to decide what is the word of God what is not. The Holy Spirit does not make mistakes. He moved each writer, and each person to set a standard by which man would receive the Word of God. There was discention among many, but God made sure which one's would be in and which ones were not to be Cannonized. Once Scripture closed, by the guidness of the Spirit, many wanted other books to be included, and added two more books after Scripture closed, even Luther believed that James should not be a book of Scripture, but he later accepted James as the Word of God.
---MarkV. on 8/6/10


MarkV:

Yes, but how do YOU know just WHAT the Word of God actually IS? Did God personally tell you? In fact, did God personally tell anyone?

No, except for a few cases where prophets record that God told them to write certain words down in a book. And many apocryphal books make the same claims.

We trust the TRADITIONS of the Church which tell us just WHICH books are actually part of the Word of God, and which books are spurious. And where are these traditions kept? The are OUTSIDE the Bible.
---StrongAxe on 8/6/10


\\The word of God is the Word of God, it does not necessitates anything to be the Word of God, only God's word. No one person made it the word of God, God did. All the church did was to receive it "recipimus" they received it.\\

And just how was it determined to be the Word of God?

Saying "it's the word of God because it's the word of God" is circular reasoning.

And then, if it was received as the Word of God, why did Protestants, beginning with Martin Luther, who denied that James was canonical because it disagreed with him, start throwing out books from what had been received for centuries?
---Cluny on 8/6/10


Stongaxe, you said,
"because our belief in just what the Word of God IS necessitates trust in certain processes (i.e. the Church's determination of just what is, and is not scripture) that occurred OUTSIDE the Word of God itself."
The word of God is the Word of God, it does not necessitates anything to be the Word of God, only God's word. No one person made it the word of God, God did. All the church did was to receive it "recipimus" they received it. They did not make truth what was already Truth.
There is no serious reason to doubt the books presently included in the New and Old Testament.
---MarkV. on 8/5/10


MarkV.:

I did not say that the Word of God is unreliable. I DID say that we cannot believe the Word of God ALONE (i.e. Sola Scriptura) because our belief in just what the Word of God IS necessitates trust in certain processes (i.e. the Church's determination of just what is, and is not scripture) that occurred OUTSIDE the Word of God itself.

If we MUST rely on certain extra-biblical Church traditions to determine what the Bible is, perhaps some other non-biblical church traditions might be authoritative as well?
---StrongAxe on 8/5/10




Jack B, by you question I can see you are up to something. I wonder what it is. Only you will be able to tell me later, so I will wait.
---MarkV. on 8/4/10


Strongaxe, I thought I could answer your question and that my answer would have some meaning but as I can see it doesn't. What you are asking is something bigger then interpreting Scripture. You question the Word of God as it written. I cannot do anything about that. I can only speak about what is written already. I don't question God's Word as it was received by the Church. As believers we should believe in the Word of God. Second, how to interpret it correctly. If we have a true passion for Christ and His Word, we will do everything possible to know and interpret what is written, because the Spirit will help us and open us passages for us. But if we question what is written then how can the Spirit reveal the Word to us?
---MarkV. on 8/4/10


Jack B, no bible now is completely correct. The reason is that many words use are words the translators thought right to use when translating the original manuscripts. I'm not speaking about the W.of F. bibles. What we need to do is, to agree that Scripture is complete. Believe it is the Word of God. That Scripture does not contradict. When we find words use that seem to say one thing in one passage and something else in another, it is the duty of the translator (us) to look up every word use in the passages to get the right translation. We have books that teach words in Greek and Hebrew where we can go and look up the words for ourselves. We have enough possible help to help us interpret the passages correctly if we do the work.
---MarkV. on 8/5/10


Mark, I didnt have room to ask this on the other thread but you made a reference to the words "whole world" not meaning the entire world.

In light of that opinion, I really must ask...

Do you believe the KJV of the Bible needs to be rewritten? Do you believe it is tainted by man?

Is so, what version do you read?
---JackB on 8/4/10


MarkV.:

How do you know which books "ought" to be in the Bible or not?

Can you cite chapter and verse saying Paul's epistle to the Collossians is part of scripture, yet his epistle to the Laodiceans (mentioned in in Collossians 4:16) is not?

We have such an epistle, but it is included in the pseudepigraphia and not the bible. But why? Not from internal evidence (as both books recommend each other). Some say that the second epistle is "not authentic" or even that it contains nothing useful for teaching - but these are value judgments, made OUTSIDE the cannon of scripture.
---StrongAxe on 8/4/10




Strongaxe, there is nothing wrong with Sola Scriptura. Not one thing. There is though a lot of things wrong with man, and that is evident by the fall. There is enough Truth in Scripture for Scripture to interpret itself. The problem is with man. When man interpret Scripture by what they traditionally believe, they cannot possibly come out with the Truth. Even when they use Sola Scriptura many times they still will not come out with the Truth, it doesn't mean Sola Scriptura is wrong, it only means that man has a fallen nature. You want to blame Sola Scriptura, when you should know it is man who is at fault.
If you have Bible interpreting Bible, it is better then having man interpreting Bible with their traditions.
---MarkV. on 8/3/10


\\But I am not sure how to work this. Please do contact me (peter3594, you can find me on Christianet in Greece) as I would like your opinion.
---peter3594 on 8/2/10\\

Forgive me, but I'm not too sure how contacting you that way works.........
---Cluny on 8/3/10


Elder:

I agree. I just point out logical contradiction in "Sola Scriptura". Evangelicals want things to be black and white - it makes decision making easier. While nice in theory, the world seldom works this way. Rather than having truth handed to us on silver platters, we must use wisdom to discern it.

This kind of thinking attracts people to cults - instead of a realistic, imperfect world model, cults offer an idealistic, simplistic cut-and-dried view that gives them a certainty that everything they are taught is true, their leaders are perfect, etc. This relieves them from any responsibility for their own beliefs and actions. But this isa pleasant delusion - the kind children have, but adults learn is not realistic.
---StrongAxe on 8/2/10


StrongAxe, I am not speaking of the "copies" of Scripture that we have today. But, I also think we have enough truth today to make a common sence commitment to/for the proper spititual attitude.
Even the "Good News for Modern Man" had some truth in it.
---Elder on 8/2/10


Cluny: 'ALL Protestant Christians are, by definition, apostate.'

This is something I have wondered about for a while. I am not going to attack you, because I understand where you take it from - I asume it to be the apostolic succession 'if you say your sins are forgiven, etc'

But I am not sure how to work this. Please do contact me (peter3594, you can find me on Christianet in Greece) as I would like your opinion.
---peter3594 on 8/2/10


Elder:

I once believed in Sola Scriptura as you did. But there is one major problem with Sola Scriptura. It is impossible to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture unless you first know exactly what 'Scripture' IS. Unfortunately, the definition of 'Scripture' comes to us, not from Scripture itself (since none of the Biblical manuscripts contain a Table of Contents), but rather through human tradition - which is by its very nature extra-biblical. If you reject all extra-biblical tradition, you must by the very same logic reject the Bible itself, since its compilation comes from that very same extra-biblical tradition.
---StrongAxe on 8/1/10


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"Which of these was Christian, francis?"
---Cluny on 7/26/10
Frances this is typical Cluny misdirection. He wants people off the subject and he thinks people are as dumb as he hopes they are. His true colors show clearly when examined by Scripture Of course, he has stated in the past that Scripture cannot be trusted and there is other "truth" to follow. He did this when he denied Sola Scripture.
---Elder on 8/1/10


\\Cluny didn't Paul say Mt Siani is in bongage with her children, giving HAGAR and her children as an example.\\

Read it again.

St. Paul clearly says that earthly JERUSALEM and her children (Jews) are spiritually children of Hagar.
---Cluny on 7/31/10


Cluny didn't Paul say Mt Siani is in bongage with her children, giving HAGAR and her children as an example. Hagar, was an Egyption wasn't she?

However those who are above and free are the INVISIBLE Church..the New Jerusalem...Mt SION!

Only those who have been set FREE In Christ are free indeed. Anyone and everyone who is not IN CHRIST is in bondage of fear (of death) and will be all their lives. This is what Paul is talking about.

There is no ONE physical earthly city in bondage to sin and death. ALL outside Christ are! Hebrews 2!!

Christ is head if the NEW CREATION. Those IN CHRIST are a New Creature waiting for the New Creation!

No political powers/earthly armies can save you!! *****Isaiah 30 and 31!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/31/10


\\Also note hills, mountains..is symbolic for Satan's principalities. Read the letters to the church...the city where Satan SITS\\

And this city is, as St. Paul said in, Galatians, the Jerusalem "which now is" and is in bondage with her children.

How can Rome, which actually sits on nine hills, be a city that sits on seven hills?

But both Jerusalem and Mecca sit on seven hills.

And ALL Protestant Christians are, by definition, apostate.
---Cluny on 7/30/10


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18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Cluny, the WOMAN is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the EARTH....the whole earth.

Have you ever read the Tale of two cities. One city is HEAVENLY, the other is Satan's domain..the earth.


Also note hills, mountains..is symbolic for Satan's principalities. Read the letters to the church...the city where Satan SITS.

RCC, Islam, Hindue etc, etc are ALL including apostate Christianity who are still in this world...Worship the BEAST..all who's names are NOT written in the Lambs book of Life!
---kathr4453 on 7/30/10


\\The only ones I know still parading around in Levitical robes and crowns pretending to be Priests etc, are POPES!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10\\

Which shows how much you know about the Roman Catholic Church.

The tiara hasn't been used in DECADES, dear soul. Furthermore, it was a sign of secular, not spiritual, authority and was NOT worn at services.

Clergy of other churches use robes, too.,,,

Would you like to try again?

In any case, as I said, Rome sits on NINE hills, not seven.
---Cluny on 7/29/10


Cluny, look at the clothing of the woman..Mystery Babylon. If you look at the Levitical priest robes in the OT you will see many comparisons.

Yet in this one something is missing. The BLUE!

Blue means heavenly. The mystery here is a mock wanna be earthly church. You see the true Church is invisible....and Heaven is our home..not here.

The only ones I know still parading around in Levitical robes and crowns pretending to be Priests etc, are POPES!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10


//There's only ONE nation that has been personified as a harlot in the Bible. And Jerusalem sits on seven hills. Cluny//

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Cluny, when did Israel EVER reign over any Kings of the earth.....not even in OT Times!

However many POPEs have reigned over many Kings of the earth..correct!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/10


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Cluny:

In that case, an apocalyptic novel with the Southern Baptist Church as the Beast and the Grand Old Opry as the Woman in Red would be quite intriguing... :)
---StrongAxe on 7/28/10


\\Then again, if you look at the number of cities built on 7 hills, the list is huge.\\

Don't forget Nashville, TN, the seat of the Southern Baptist Convention.

OTOH, Rome sits on NINE hills, not seven.
---Cluny on 7/28/10


Exodus 18:23 If thou shalt do this thing, and GOD COMMAND THEE [so], then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Exodus 18:24 So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

Exodus 18:25 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.


Numbers 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that [was] upon him, and gave [it] unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, [that], when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
---francis on 7/28/10


I think we're forgetting ONE thing here:

THOSE MENTIONED BELOW WHICH ARE:
Saul, david, Solomon, herod, Daniel,
Moses, all were involed in runing government

The bible never tells us to follow THEM. The bible tells us to "fix your eyes upon Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith."

THe bible tells us to Fear not, for I am with you. Who is "I?" GOD. We are to follow God/Jesus and Holy Spirit, not Moses, not David, not Solomon, but Jesus and Jesus alone!!! Amen?
---Donna5535 on 7/28/10


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Mecca also sits on seven hills, and so does San Francisco. I'm sure the prophecy watchers could have a field day with either one of those.

Then again, if you look at the number of cities built on 7 hills, the list is huge. It also includes Tehran, Amman, Barcelona, Edinburgh, Istanbul, Kiev, Lisbon, Prague, even Richmond Virginia.
---StrongAxe on 7/28/10


\\The Woman who rides the beast is apostate Christianity following after the politics of the beast building a NEW( MYSTERY BABYLON) BABYLON/World Order! \\

There's only ONE nation that has been personified as a harlot in the Bible. And Jerusalem sits on seven hills.

Connect the dots.

**As far as politicians having a true relationship with Christ. I doubt it.**

What I doubt is your ability to see into other people's hearts and discern whether they have a "true relationship with Christ," Robyn.
---Cluny on 7/27/10


I don't think christianity and politics really mix well. But I do know pastors and other church officials try to blend the two. Most politicians are crooked and most don't have a real faith. They go to church, and try to get the christians votes, when needed. That's it. They attend church when they feel up to it. There is a difference in going to church and being born again. As far as politicians having a true relationship with Christ. I doubt it. But it is possible.
---Robyn on 7/27/10


\\Saul, david, Solomon, herod, Daniel,
Moses, all were involed in runing government\\

Which of these was Christian, francis?
---Cluny on 7/26/10



OT Israel was a Theocracy and we need to remember our worldly world is not a THEOCRACY. America is not a Theocracy either. God never made a covenant with Gentile Nations.

The Beast in Revelations will be a mighty political power along with his co-horts. The Woman who rides the beast is apostate Christianity following after the politics of the beast building a NEW( MYSTERY BABYLON) BABYLON/World Order!

COME OUT FROM AMONG HER!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/27/10


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francis:

David, Solomon, and Daniel were about as much Christians as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus were Muslims (something Islam teaches).

Were David, Solomon, and Daniel men of God? yes. Were they Christians? no.
---StrongAxe on 7/27/10


\\Which of these was Christian, francis?
---Cluny on 7/26/10

All of them

each of them went made sacrifices which was a reminder to them of the CHRIST that ws to come.
OFF TOPIC
---francis on 7/27/10\\

You have a real weird definition of Christian, francis, but this follows from your real weird definition of Christianity, which is nothing more than the judaizing heresy.

In any case, neither Herod could be considered a Christian in any sense. One tried to kill the Divine Infant, the other colluded with both secular and religious powers to crucify Him.
---Cluny on 7/27/10


"Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself."
John 6:15 ESV


"They are not part of this world any more than I am."
John 17:16 NLT


"Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."
John 18:36 ESV
---scott on 7/27/10


Please read: Ecclesiasgtes 8:9 "Man begins to dominate man to his Injury!"
When man begins letting MAN make the laws instead of following the laws of God, (the Bible, our first and only guide book)
he gets the world as we know it today, Paradise ruined by corruption, thieves,adulterers, killing, lying, drugs...the list is endless.
Can you IMAGINE a life where everyone lived only by God's rules? Think about it!
What a wonderful life we would all have, no hate, but all 'Loving thy neighbor'.
The first two commandments is all one needs, they say it all!
---Madge on 7/27/10


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Which of these was Christian, francis?
---Cluny on 7/26/10

All of them

each of them went made sacrifices which was a reminder to them of the CHRIST that ws to come.
OFF TOPIC
---francis on 7/27/10


\\Saul, david, Solomon, herod, Daniel,
Moses, all were involed in runing government\\

Which of these was Christian, francis?
---Cluny on 7/26/10

Cluny, you cut out the fluff. One of the things I like about you.

Realize u asked Francis but, an answer is found in the New Covenant Heb 8:8. You would ask how maybe.
Is-ra-EL = ruling with GOD in O.T. These same are found in Heb 8:8. And in every book of the N.T.
---Trav on 7/27/10


\\Saul, david, Solomon, herod, Daniel,
Moses, all were involed in runing government\\

Which of these was Christian, francis?
---Cluny on 7/26/10


Saul, david, Solomon, herod, Daniel,
Moses, all were involed in runing government

It is a failure on our part if we do not realize that the absolute best people to run the government are those who completely obey God

We needs christians in govenment
we DO NOT NEED A CHRISTIAN GIVENMENT
---francis on 7/26/10


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Our real citizenship is in heaven, and not in this world. And you will find that the worldly will seldom listen to any thing that we Christians have to say, eventhough what we say would bring them great good and great prosperity. Our lives should bring glory to Jesus, and we have freedom to stand up for whatever we know is right, and we also have the freedom to stand against for whatever we know is wrong. But if your time is being spent obsessively on politics to the point of neglecting your spirituual well-being, then reconsider balancing your time towards that what is more important. "No man that wars entangles himself with affairs of life, that he may please him who has chosen him to be a soldier." II Tm.2:4.
---Eloy on 7/26/10


Did Jesus get involved in political issues? Don't think so.

Did the Apostle Paul get involved in political issues? Don't think so either and remember Matthew, the tax collector (which isn't even politics) left his job to follow Jesus.

What does, "Keep seeking the things above." mean to you?
---Donna5535 on 7/26/10


\\He Didn't say, "Throw those evil swords away".
---Trav on 7/24/10\\

You seem to be ignoring the second part of Christ's words to St. Peter: Those who take up the sword shall die by the sword.
---Cluny on 7/26/10


\\1. Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p. 61\\

I don't know who Dymond and Cadoux are, but I do know that Tolstoy died excommuniate, so maybe you should try again.
---Cluny on 7/25/10


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Cluny:

Even though Jesus sometimes recommended not using a sword, he sometimes recommended using one as well:

Luke 22:36
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
---StrongAxe on 7/26/10


very good, larry
---aka.joseph on 7/26/10


The godly King is blessed of God, however politics IS NOT Christian so its a tough balance.

Should godly people be involved in government, absolutely?
Should godly people be involved in politics, never?

There is nothing about even the definition of politics that is holy, and there is no biblical virtue in being conservative or liberal. Period.

You can't be a conservative Christian but you can be a religious conservative. Likewise for liberal or social Christians. CHRIST does not share the stage with ideology.
A smaller savior is needed to fit inside manly beliefs.
---larry on 7/25/10


\\Peter cut the ear off of a guard with a sword he carried while with Christ. He was never told to throw that nasty thing away. \\

As a matter of fact, Trav, Jesus DID tell him to do that very thing.

Matthew 26:
52 But Jesus said to him, Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
---Cluny on 7/23/10

Now, Cluny... "in it's place" is a scabbard of rest/availability when needed.
What is not said speaks loudly with issues like these.
Christ said sell your garments and buy a sword.
Christ DIDN'T promote what social controllers promote.

He Didn't say, "Throw those evil swords away".
---Trav on 7/24/10


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(Saint) Clement of Alexandria

"In the third century Clement contrasted war-like pagans with the peaceful community of Christians."1 "{He} calls his Christian contemporaries the 'Followers of Peace,' and expressly tells us that the followers of peace used none of the implements of war." 2 "Christians are not allowed to correct by violence sinful wrongdoings. For (it is) not those who abstain from evil by compulsion, but those (who abstain) by choice, (that) God crowns." 3

1. Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p. 61

2. Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 83

3. Cadoux Early Christian Attitude of War, p. 78
---scott on 7/24/10


how did this blog get from Christians being in politics to becoming a soldier in the army? and name calling as well, lets be adults here ok and stay the course.
---Lea on 7/24/10


aka.joseph,Again-
Bless you brother.
---char on 7/24/10


//What's disturbing is tri-nity is defined as doctrine-then Gods children are placed in a category.//- char

Super Amen, to your response.
---aka.joseph on 7/23/10


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\\'Tertullian not recognized as saint of the Church...therefore not a doctrinal authority.' Cluny

That's amusing.

Poor Tertullian, getting worked from both angles to suit our position.||

What's amusing about it?

Nobody is denying that he was prolific.

But he's not the universal solvent.

I've certainly not quoted him. So far as I can tell, you're the only one to do so.

||Is he not (generally) viewed as 'the father of the trinity', first to make use of the word, etc.?\\

Generally viewed by whom?

I don't see what a discussion of the Trinity has to do with the subject of this blog, so I won't be dragged into it here.
---Cluny on 7/23/10


scott:

It is quite possible for one who is in spiritual authority to recognize the wisdom and/or correctness of something said by someone someone who is not.

For example, look at the woman at the well. When Jesus asked her to bring her husband, she said she didn't have one, and he said she was correct - thus, Jesus (an authority) confirming a fact earlier stated by the woman (who was not an authority).
---StrongAxe on 7/23/10


Amen trav.-Praise God ours is free-Heb 4:12
///Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.///

What's disturbing is tri-nity is defined as doctrine-then Gods children are placed in a catagory.

He has indeed spoken-and indeed confirms His Word.
Christians are the Children believing in the Words of their Father-Praise Him-wouldn't this be Christ?
1.Father[God]-
2.Words[yeshua]-
3.Holy Spirit-[God confirming His Word].
Tri-in-unity-Praise God.
Is 9:6
---char on 7/23/10


"Peter cut the ear off of a guard..." Trav

In addition to His rebuke, if Christ thought that Peter's act of violence was appropriate, he probably wouldn't have miraculously put the ear back on.

"Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Rom 12:17-19 ESV

"Evil" Greek "Kakos" (Strong's G2556)
'Bad nature', etc., but also: 'troublesome, destructive...that which injures'.
---scott on 7/23/10


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'Tertullian not recognized as saint of the Church...therefore not a doctrinal authority.' Cluny

That's amusing.

Poor Tertullian, getting worked from both angles to suit our position.

Is he not (generally) viewed as 'the father of the trinity', first to make use of the word, etc.?

Are you prepared to disregard his contribution to the trinity doctrine because he is neither a saint nor a 'doctrinal authority'?
---scott on 7/23/10


Trav:

Even though your analysis in your last post is right on, you should be careful about calling someone an idiot (irrespective of whether he actually is one or not):

Matthew 5:22
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
---StrongAxe on 7/23/10


\\Peter cut the ear off of a guard with a sword he obviously carried while with Christ. He was never told to throw that nasty thing away. \\

As a matter of fact, Trav, Jesus DID tell him to do that very thing.

Matthew 26:

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

And as you see, it was not the guard but a servant of the high priest, whom another Evangelist names as Malchus.
---Cluny on 7/23/10


\\The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen,\\

Neither of them are recognized as saints of the Church, however, and therefore not as doctrinal authorities.

When the Roman Soldiers came to John the Baptist and asked what they must do, they were never told to go AWOL.

When the Centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant, Jesus never said, "First, you have to quit being a soldier."

When Cornelius the Centurion was visited by the angel who directed him to send for St. Peter, The Aposle did NOT tell Cornelius to cease being a soldier.

I know who John the Baptist, Jesus, Cornelius, and St. Peter are.

Who are Caddoux, Barnes, Habberton, Roth and Spears?
---Cluny on 7/22/10


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"Christians, however, afterwards became soldiers. And when? When their general fidelity to Christianity became relaxed, when, in other respects, they violated its principles, . . . In a word, they became soldiers, when they had ceased to be Christians.---scott on 7/22/10

The man obviously was an idiot. Christ's advice:Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Peter cut the ear off of a guard with a sword he obviously carried while with Christ. He was never told to throw that nasty thing away. Or just lay down and let the mean ole dogs slay you.
---Trav on 7/22/10


Which party is the "Christian" party?

Any vote at the end of the day ends up being compromised at best.

We basically only have a choice between donkey crap or elephant crap.

The lies and deceit are sickening.

Here in Florida, the "Christian" candidate for govenor claims to be pro life and for accountabiity. In reality, he made millions by owning hospitals that performed abortions as well as over $300 million by cheating medicare with fraud claims.
---obewan on 7/22/10


"Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism."
The Early Church and the World, Professor C. J. Cadoux

"The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen, affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman army."
The Encyclopedia of Religion, The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.


"Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices."
World History, The Story of Mans Achievements, 1962) Habberton, Roth and Spears, p. 117.
---scott on 7/22/10


\\When their general fidelity to Christianity became relaxed, when, in other respects, they violated its principles, . . . In a word, they became soldiers, when they had ceased to be Christians." \\

And would the various martyrs I named--who are not even the tip of the iceburg--have had the faith and love to die for Christ's sake had they ceased to be Christians?

I know who Ss George, Theodore, Sergius and Bacchus, etc are.

Who is this Jonathan Dymond person?
---Cluny on 7/22/10


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"The Christians who lived nearest to the time of our Saviour, believed, with undoubting confidence, that he had unequivocally forbidden war, that they openly avowed this belief, and that, in support of it, they were willing to sacrifice, and did sacrifice, their fortunes and their lives."

"Christians, however, afterwards became soldiers. And when? When their general fidelity to Christianity became relaxed, when, in other respects, they violated its principles, . . . In a word, they became soldiers, when they had ceased to be Christians."

An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, Jonathan Dymond, pgs 60, 61.
---scott on 7/22/10


\\They [Christians] refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire.\\

Hagiography disagrees with this statement.

There's a long list of soldier saints and martyrs for Christ as well as imperial officials who were Christians before the time of Constantine. George, Theodore (several by this name), Sergius, Bacchus, Polyecthus, Nearchos, and the Soldiers of Sebaste are among them.

Some sources say that Emperor Philip (sometime in the 200's) was a secret Christian. His son Quirinius was a martyr, too.
---Cluny on 7/22/10


In addition, what does the Bible really say about Christians and participation in government? In the Old Testament, many of the people of God were involved in government. We have all of the good kings of Israel and Judah. We have all of the respected advisors of King David and the good kings. continued......
---Lea on 7/22/10


In the contrary I would considerate an absolute moral imperative for a Christian ti be involved in politics and voting to the maximum extent possible. Because if Christians don't do it someone else who does not have Christian ethics will and the results will not be to our [Christian] liking. To be an apathetic Christian compromises the grace that God granted you, you might as well be in league serving the Antichrist, for you become no use to God, no use to your brother & sister in Christ, and no use to yourself.
---Friendly_Blogger on 7/22/10


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"They [Christians] refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes." History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office." On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.

---scott on 7/22/10


I would rather see a govenment with christians, than a christian givernment.
I do think christians should run for office, and also vote.
Run on your values
Vote your values as a voter
But polititions should not not impose their spiritual, doctrinal values on others.

Just because you believe in prayer does not mean that you should make is law for everyone to pray.
---francis on 7/22/10


So from most the comments here you all are saying a Christian should not be in politics. And i say this is wrong because then we are giving up our God given rights to lead people with morals and honesty to let satan have his way and destroy as he is now, this is what is wrong with our Nation today, Christians have bowed down as they did in Rome. If you vote then you can run for office, you will either let the evils of this world corrupt you or you will set a good standard with honesty and Character. Our Country was built on Christian Values.
---Lea on 7/22/10


\\the danger is union of church & state. during the middle ages, pope urban II declared 'it is god's will to liberate israel from the 'heretics'. so goes the 'crusades\\

Le,aving aside the issue that Europe was at that time divided into many kingdoms, duchies, principalities, and the like, the Crusades were motivated by how mahometans were treating the native Christians of the Holy Land--which was NOT called "Israel" at this time, btw..

Things have not changed much. Most members of my church can tell you horror stories.
---Cluny on 7/22/10


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the danger is union of church & state. during the middle ages, pope urban II declared 'it is god's will to liberate israel from the 'heretics'. so goes the 'crusades'.

like in the book of daniel, king nebuchenezzar said 'when you hear the music, harps etc, you should bow down & worship the image or you will be thrown in the fire.'
many times there are politicians who use 'christianity' to get votes & if you are not part of that 'agenda' you are labeled 'unpatriotic'
---mike on 7/22/10


No. best to stay out of any government issues.
---candice on 7/22/10


NO, because politics Are corrupted. The Same devil that drives the Man - made relig - org's churches drives crooked, corrupted politics also.
---Lawrence on 7/22/10


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