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Israel Laws Bind Christians

Are laws given to the nation of Israel binding upon Christians? Explain Exodus 12:49.

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 ---leej on 7/27/10
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\\fouth: MOST IMPORTANT, The majority of the NT was not written to give new laws, but to correct doctrinal and behavoural issues in the church. All the scriptures used for correction were taken from the OT and not made up just for NT\\

Does this include the NT verses which make it clear that Gentile Christians are NOT bound by the kashuroth, francis?

Or are these verses in your Bible?
---Cluny on 8/4/10


The Bible itself does not distinguish between the 10 and the 613. It knows only ONE law: The Law.
Cluny on 8/4/10

So then we shold honour or father and mother AND circumcise because there is no differentiating the 613 laws?

Ok so we should sacrifice at the temple as well as reject the worship of other gods because there is no defrentiating the 613 laws?

We must use an earthly high priest to get to God, but not commit adultery?

Women must stay away from the congregation during thier cycle, as well as not take God's name in vain.

See how it looks when you say there is no difference?
---francis on 8/4/10


Francis fails to realize that Gentiles were under Jewish laws ONLY when they lived or sojourned in the nation of Israel.

We can all agree that his aim is to Judaize the church by imposing laws that are strictly Jewish onto the church. Hopefully one of these days he will come into the knowledge of the truth of scripture and not be counted among those who oppose the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
---leej on 8/4/10


Axey:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

What are YOU teaching, and by what law will YOU be judged?
---jerry6593 on 8/5/10


BTW--are you married, francis? If so, do you sleep in the same bed as your wife during her period? ---Cluny on 8/4/10

Ask Cluny a marriage question. Does he expect his wife to act as the unmarried, or married to him.

GOD was married. Jer3:14. He expected his wife to act according to his laws/will. His covenant.

He divorces this wife when she doesn't. He says he will remarry her. He can't by his own law unless she is widowed.

N.T. The bridegroom comes for for the same woman....cleansed. By Widowhood.
Heb8:8.
The difference is by who GOD chooses as wife. Just like Cluny chose out of many or few. GOD writes all laws in his new wifes heart/mind instead of stone.
---Trav on 8/5/10




First: wrong
Second: wrong
Third: wrong
Fourth: wrong
---micha9344 on 8/4/10

First: Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised,

Second: Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Third: Romans 15:27 For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things,

Fourth: 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you,

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them.

READ YYOUR BIBLE
---francis on 8/5/10


Cluny on 8/4/10

This is the error of your genius.

Blood: You acknowledge that under the new covenant no one has to be circumcized, yet it is acceptabel for a man to share a bed with his wife at the time of her cycle.

10 commandments: you accept that you must honour father and mother, but you reject the sabbath

Dietary laws: You accept that you should not eat blood, but you may eat swine.

Clearly you have made a seperation / distinction among the 613 Laws.
can you share with us how did you make such a seperation between the 613?
---francis on 8/5/10


\\First: based on Exodus 12:49. the laws were not exclusive to Jews it was and is for all who wanted to covenant with God. that statetment is reinforced in Isaiah 56.

Second: The Laws in the NT which are all the OT laws (excluding laws pertaining to the EARETHLY SANCTUARY) apply to all believers Jew or greek, for God hath made them ONE.\\

Once again, you are trying to bring the Gentiles under the yoke of your Judaizing heresy, francis.

And in the process, you pick and choose which laws apply to Gentiles.

BTW--are you married, francis? If so, do you sleep in the same bed as your wife during her period? The OT forbids this, or even sitting on a chair she vacated.
---Cluny on 8/4/10


First: wrong
Second: wrong
Third: wrong
Fourth: wrong
---micha9344 on 8/4/10


First: based on Exodus 12:49. the laws were not exclusive to Jews it was and is for all who wanted to covenant with God. that statetment is reinforced in Isaiah 56.

Second: The Laws in the NT which are all the OT laws (excluding laws pertaining to the EARETHLY SANCTUARY) apply to all believers Jew or greek, for God hath made them ONE.

Third: The NT states clearly that the none hebrews or none Jews do share with jews in their spiritual things (THE LAW)

fouth: MOST IMPORTANT, The majority of the NT was not written to give new laws, but to correct doctrinal and behavoural issues in the church. All the scriptures used for correction were taken from the OT and not made up just for NT
---francis on 8/4/10




The Bible itself does not distinguish between the 10 and the 613. It knows only ONE law: The Law.

Cluny on 8/4/10
You would be dead wrong on that.
Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? ( BEFORE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS)
Malachi 4:4 the law of Moses my servant,
Romans 7:14 the law is spiritual:
Hebrews 9:10 carnal ordinances,
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Exodus 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark, and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
---francis on 8/4/10


\Or did God institute different laws for none jewish christians as he did for Jewish ones
francis on 8/3/10

You're finally catching on, francis.
Cluny on 8/4/10

With a SMILE on my face I challenge you AGAIN
to find laws that are DIFFERENT for None jewish christians than Jewish christians in the NT and post them.
---francis on 8/4/10


\\cluny: 613 laws? Yes there are many ordinances (or laws, if you prefer) that were written by Moses. But the ones you are required to keep are those written by God Himself, all Ten of them.\\

The Bible itself does not distinguish between the 10 and the 613. It knows only ONE law: The Law.

Read Leviticus 19. Right in the middle of a bunch of "ceremonial" and "agricultural" and other laws you want to attribute to Moses, God says, "Keep My decrees."
---Cluny on 8/4/10


jerry6593:

Can you cite any scriptures that command all Christians to specifically obey the Ten Commandments as opposed to the other 603 contained in the Law of Moses?
---StrongAxe on 8/4/10


francis //WHat you are suggesting is that a christian should every now and then SIN ( trangress the latter or spirit of the law)

Are all of the laws provided in the Old Testament applicable to the Church?

If one law must fit all then the council of Jerusalem Acts 15 was not guided by the Spirit of God as your view would be that all Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to be genuine Christians.

Sorry but you kick in the face of the early church and what they truly taught. Such is the case of those who are ignorant of the Bible as well as church history.

Suggest you find mentors who know both the Bible as well as its Author.
---leej on 8/4/10


cluny: 613 laws? Yes there are many ordinances (or laws, if you prefer) that were written by Moses. But the ones you are required to keep are those written by God Himself, all Ten of them.

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
---jerry6593 on 8/4/10


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\\Or did God institute different laws for none jewish christians as he did for Jewish ones
---francis on 8/3/10
\\

You're finally catching on, francis.
---Cluny on 8/4/10


Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Trav on 8/3/10

Would these LAWS by the exact same laws as God had given to the Jews (Israel and Judah).
Or did God institute different laws for none jewish christians as he did for Jewish ones
---francis on 8/3/10


CLUNY you speak about 613 laws, the biBle says that THE law is spiritual, it also refers to come ORDINANCES as carnal.

Those which are spiritual cannot be the same as those which are carnal.
So can you tell us which of the 613 are spiritual and which are carnal?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and CARNAL ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

StrongAxe I agree with your last post also written in Romans 2:14
---francis on 8/3/10


Legalism is by definition adherence to letter of law: strict adherence to a literal interpretation of a law, rule, or religious or moral code
leej on 8/3/10

Again you are wanting in spiritual matters.
Christ kept the Law perfectly both in letter and in spirit was he a legalist?

WHat you are suggesting is that a christian should every now and then SIN ( trangress the latter or spirit of the law)

So I challeng you AGAIN to show me ONE doctrine in the NT not found in the OT in prophecy or in Law
---francis on 8/3/10


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francis:

We need not refrain from adultery, perjury, burglary and murder just because of a bunch of "thou shalt not's". However, if we love our neighbour as ourselves, we don't do ANY of these things (as well as many other things the Law explicitly forbids), without needing to be told, point by point, exactly what we cannot do. If you really love your neighbor, all of these other things just "feel wrong" without us needing to be told.

In the same way, if we love God, we won't take his name in vein or worship other gods.
---StrongAxe on 8/3/10


In other words, YOU are doing the same thing you condemn others of doing. This is called hypocrisy.
Cluny on 8/2/10

Give an example

Stop saying that I am trying to impose sabbath or dietary laws.
I am doing no such thing.
keep this in mind: GOD himself wrote the ten commandments and GOD himself started the sabbath way back in creation.

IF you have issues with GOD'S LAW take it up with God. But stop pretending that Francis wrote any laws about sabbath of diet. GOD commanded them. You choose not to obey God,
WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH!

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
---francis on 8/3/10


I have no earthly blood ties to any hebrew or jew. My blood lines cannotbe traced to anyone related to abraham in any way shape of form.

What plan does God have for my salvation?
What covenent is there for me?
---francis on 8/2/10

Do you have the laws written in your heart and mind?

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 8/3/10


Legalism is by definition adherence to letter of law: strict adherence to a literal interpretation of a law, rule, or religious or moral code

The problem arises when the legalists uses the law as a means of judging others. (You do not observe the dietary laws or the OT Sabbath, therefore you are not a good Christian if at all!)

The legalists points to the law as a means of showing others that he stands above them and that is where the hypocrisy comes in.

One major problem I can see with the legalist is that Christ is not at the focus of his life, instead the law is. It is doubtful that the Lord will be impressed with the legalists as He certainly as not with the Pharisees.
---leej on 8/3/10


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\\Annointed,\\

Trav and everybody else:

There is NOT a doubled N in "anoint," "anointed," and the word's other forms.
---Cluny on 8/2/10


\\My question however is this:
why is it that if i obey 9/10 commandments it is OK and acceptable, but If I chose to obey all 10/10 then it is legalism?\\

Your legalism is trying to IMPOSE Sabbath and kashorth in food and lately clothing on the Gentiles.

Exodus 12:49 is talking about who is permitted to eat the Passover meal--a mitzvoth that many Jews do NOT observe today when they invite their Gentile neighbors to the Seder.

In any case, by your making an issue of 10 Commandments, you're showing you're picking and choosing which of God's 613 commandments you are going to obey.

In other words, YOU are doing the same thing you condemn others of doing. This is called hypocrisy.
---Cluny on 8/2/10


francis...//Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

It is rather obvious you do not recognize the New Testament as being Scripture. For if you did then you would have to believe that Jewish laws found within the Old Testament were not imposed onto Gentile believres and that the Holy Spirit did not guide the decision at the Jerusalem council.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Poor soul, when will you ever come into the knowledge of the truth and be free from your cockoopoop religion?
---leej on 8/2/10


Trav on 8/2/10

I have no earthly blood ties to any hebrew or jew. My blood lines cannotbe traced to anyone related to abraham in any way shape of form.

What plan does God have for my salvation?
What covenent is there for me?
---francis on 8/2/10


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Are you saying that the covenant was to unite judah and israel?
Or are you saying that the cpovenant was with Judah and israel/
---francis on 8/2/10

It does both. Israel, was divorced the Nth House of Ten. Judah was not. Christ came to his own but his own would have him not. But, the ten would.
By Christ death....both, are free to remarry....by the marriage laws of GOD. He was married to All Israel before. He will be again at the end.
So it isn't my opinion....read all the prophets have to say.
Use an online concordance for speedier search. Biblegateway for instance. Key word sheep for starters,key word saved, Israel,Jacob or the other 136 names Israel was called.
---Trav on 8/2/10


Are you saying that the covenant was to unite judah and israel?...---francis on 8/2/10

Francis. If you use Biblegateway concordance online. Use the keyword search, 500 at a time.
Here are part of the 136 names: Annointed, Battle-Axe, Beloved, Dearly Beloved,Betrothed,Blessed,Blessing,Branch,Bride,Chief of Nations,Children,Loved Child,Chosen. Chosen Generation,Consecrated,Royal Diadem,Dominion,Eternal Excellancy,Sword of Excellancy. Firstborn, Flock,Fruit,Heirs of Salvation, Heirs of Promise,Heirs of the World,People of Inheritance,LAW GIVERS. Mighty nation,Righteous Nation,Nation and Company of Nations. Married ones,Loved ones,His people,Holy People,Purchased Possession. Holy priesthood,Royal Priesthood,Ransomed,Redeemed.
---Trav on 8/2/10


---Trav on 8/2/10
I am trying to follow you, but i am unable to.
Are you saying that the covenant was to unite judah and israel?
Or are you saying that the cpovenant was with Judah and israel/

I am not sure what exactly you are saying.
---francis on 8/2/10


---Trav on 8/2/10
Gentile is any ethnos, race, or people who are not jewish. ---francis on 8/2/10

Ok, it takes a while to gather witnesses. No they were not Judean....but they are the Ethnos of Israel. When the word is used in most cases. The prophets verify as well as the Heb 8:8/Jer 31:31. These are laser pointers. As primary foundation scriptures go to Matt 10:6....and Matt 15:24....

The 10 Nations divorced were called the Nth House of Israel and Judah was the Sth house. Judah was not lost.
Who was the Lost Sheep of the total House of Israel? The Nth house.
Did Jesus fail in his search Matt 15:24? No, you/we are here because he didn't. Christian sheep are the seed that sprang up.
---Trav on 8/2/10


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---Trav on 8/2/10
Gentile is any ethnos, race, or people who are not jewish.

the new covenant i snot a covenant to unite to regions ( 12 tribes) judah and israel

BUt to unite the children of israeL to God

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which MY COVENANT they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

THEY DID NOT BREAK A COVENANT WITH EACH OTHER, BUT WITH GOD
---francis on 8/2/10


i used a concordance, ...
no corncordance gives nth tribe as gentile
---FRANCIS 8/1/10

Nor will they ever give them as Nth House of Israel. They can't, not knowing/acknowledging the divorce and remarriage.
The reason for a concordance is to see what original word was used.
I just used Esword....KJV+ where it list the translated word in the verse in green, click the green. The original word used for example in Galation's 2:2 is eth'-nos
Probably from G1486, a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe,
Nth house of Israel, they were divorced,scattered,lost among the peoples of the world. But, GOD will sift them as corn. They are the Royal Priesthood as Mike said.
---Trav on 8/2/10


My question however is this:
why is it that if i obey 9/10 commandments it is OK and acceptable, but If I chose to obey all 10/10 then it is legalism?
Why is keeping the sabbath legalism, and honouring father and mother not legalism?

My definition of legalism is believing that keeping the law will save you. I have never known anyone who believed that keeping the law will save them
The people whom i fellowship with all believe that we are saved by Grace through faith, and not be keeping the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
---francis on 8/2/10


Good point, micha, if we love God and our neighbor, we will find ourselves "keeping" them if we are walking in the Spirit.
---Rod4Him on 8/2/10


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It seems to me that Jesus, our perfect example, kept all Ten Commandments, both to the letter and the spirit. Does that make Him a legalist??? Don't YOU want to be like Jesus???
---jerry6593 on 8/2/10


A:
1. IF i Do not worship other gods is it legalism?
2. If I Do not worship idols is it legalism?
3. If I Do not misuse God's name is it legalism
4. If I Keep the Sabbath holy WHY it is legalism?
5. If I Honor your father & mother is it legalism?
6. If I Do not murder is it legalism?
7. If I Do not commit adultery is it legalism?
8. If I Do not steal is it legalis?
9. IF I Do not lie is ot legalism?
10. If I Do not covet is it legalism?
Funny thing is you don't have to love God or your neighbor to do these things.
It is the Royal Law that is written in our hearts.
---micha9344 on 8/1/10


Are laws given to the nation of Israel binding upon Christians? Explain Exodus 12:49.

Every Law of God applied to everyone who covenant with God regardness of nationality.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

So the same laws for Jew were the exact same laws for none jews.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that [is] within thy gates:

Yes cluny and LEEJ (the sabbath)even the STRANGER,, that included a stranger who has no inclination towards God.
---francis on 8/1/10


Jer.31:31, I will make a ne covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Juda....I will put my laws in their inward parts and write it in their hearts. Rom. 2:14 for when Gentiles...do by nature the things contained in the law...shew the works of the law written in their hearts. Roms. 2:28 he is not a jew which is one outwardly... but circumcision is of the heart. If one is born again the the law is written in your heart.
---mike on 8/1/10


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one more thing, the apostle represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus did not make this new covenant, God made the covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
---mike on 8/1/10


A:
1. IF i Do not worship other gods is it legalism?
2. If I Do not worship idols is it legalism?
3. If I Do not misuse God's name is it legalism
4. If I Keep the Sabbath holy WHY it is legalism?
5. If I Honor your father & mother is it legalism?
6. If I Do not murder is it legalism?
7. If I Do not commit adultery is it legalism?
8. If I Do not steal is it legalis?
9. IF I Do not lie is ot legalism?
10. If I Do not covet is it legalism?

B:
Which of these ten commanments does the WORD OF GOD ( NOT WORD OF MAN) say is ONLY FOR JEWS? and please give your text.
---francis on 8/1/10


i used a concordance, these are the references for gentlies

1. (a.) One of a non-Jewish nation, one neither a Jew nor a Christian, a worshiper of false gods, a heathen.

2. (a.) Belonging to the nations at large, as distinguished from the Jews, ethnic, of pagan or heathen people.

3. (a.) Denoting a race or country, as, a gentile noun or adjective.


no corncordance gives nth tribe as gentile
---FRANCIS on 8/1/10


//Use a concordance//

which concordance would you suggest?
---michael_e on 8/1/10


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Why are so many Christians anti-semitic? Don't they know that our God became a Jew, of the tribe of David? Don't they know that the New Covenant was made with the "house of Israel"?
---jerry6593 on 8/1/10


Trav I could not find the text for the gentiles being lost tribes, ... I am extremel,y interested
Please post the text
---francis on 7/31/10

Start with the word "gentile". It originated from the R.C's Latin Vulgate translation. It causes much confusion in scripture. Use a concordance. Mentally replace or write ethno's or nations when it applies. The light will come on.
In the old testament, the true word was "gowy, goi,goyim". Hebrew the word used meant 374 times nations, 143 times heathen, 11 times people. In the N.T.Covenant,Greek ethnos/ethne 64 times nations,5 time heathen 2 times people.
All of Pauls writings are to Lost Israel/found.
---Trav on 8/1/10


\\CLUNY just answer the question. Don't get defencive
---francis on 7/31/10\\

I have.

Repeatedly.

I will repeat for your benefit.

"Circumcision" is use throughout Acts and the Epistles as a synecdoche (a part for the whole)--that is, as a handle for ALL Jewish religious practices.

You are simply being obstinate, giving it a limited meaning in Galatians.

Remember in this same book, St. Paul said to St. Peter, "Why do you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (2:14).

You're falling into the same error. It was wrong 2000 (or so) years ago, and it's STILL wrong today.
---Cluny on 7/31/10


Trav I could not find the text for the gentiles being lost tribes, now could i find the text for the covenant being to unite judah and israel. I am extremel,y interested

P)lease postthe text

CLUNY just answer the question. Don't get defencive
---francis on 7/31/10


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"Keeping the Sabbath" seems to be a starting point for OT legalism. I have a friend who started with keeping the Sabbath, and now he has convinced himself that he is Jewish. Therefore, he needs to keep the Torah. He's a good guy, seeking Christ, and I hope he comes around, but I see how legalism starts. Matter of fact he (his wife) had a boy, and he had him circumcised the eighth day at a brit milah ceremony. BTW, by birth he is no more jewish than my cat is.
---Rod4Him on 7/31/10


\\By that i mean does galations mention by name: Dietary laws, modest dress laws, sabbath laws.\\

BTW, class, notice francis's progression.

FIRST he made an issue over the Saturday Sabbath.

THEN it was the kosher food laws.

NOW he's trying to impose Jewish laws of dress on Gentile believers (and oddly enough, there are some).

Do you all not see where this leads?

Don't trip over your tzitzit, francis.
---Cluny on 7/31/10


\\Cluny besided circumcision, what other law is specifically mentioned by name in galations. By that i mean does galations mention by name: Dietary laws, modest dress laws, sabbath laws.\\

I'm talking about the term "circumcision" as used throughout the NT, which is clearly its use in Galatians.

Read Galatians for yourself. (BTW, you'll have a better chance of being taken seriously if you spell properly.)

It SPECIFICALLY is against the Judaizing heresy you preach here. You're just trying to glory in our flesh.

Who has bewitched you, francis, that you're trying to bring Gentiles under the bondage of the Law?
---Cluny on 7/31/10


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 11:17-21 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree, Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say..., The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
---jerry6593 on 7/31/10


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Cluny besided circumcision, what other law is specifically mentioned by name in galations. By that i mean does galations mention by name: Dietary laws, modest dress laws, sabbath laws.

What i am looking for is a specific law. Not general. I know that galations speck of THE LAW in general terms, but i need a speciic one.

Just as it mentions circumcision by name give another or more than one.
---francis on 7/31/10


I know you will look Francis, the grafted were the divorced nations.
---Trav on 7/30/10

Interesting.
So what of those who have nothing to do with the jews at all how do they get saved? By that i mean those who are in no way shape or form related to abraham is there a seperate plan for them.What covenant has God made with people who have no blood relationship to abraham?

CLUNY: I do not disagree with you. Because circumcision is a blood covenant, it stand to reason that we do not follow any blood covenants.
But be very careful, the Law of God is NOT bondage only SIN is bondage. Be careful God never puts his people under bondage.
---francis on 7/30/10


A covenant made with Judah and israel (can you get any nmore Jewish than that?)

The messiah is a jew
all 12 apostles were jews
---francis on 7/29/10

I know you will look Francis, the grafted were the divorced nations. Go to the prophets they explain it. The wall of separation etc. The New Covenant you posted actually points to the two parties. the marriage,divorce and remarriage explain both the New and the Old. The witnesses are there.
One other thing....we do not know that all Apostles were Judean,Benjamin etc. The Apostles are found each one representing/judging each of the 12 nations of Israel in Revelations. Perhaps they were of the tribes they represent/judge. Who knows you better than your own family?
---Trav on 7/30/10


\\galation deal with circumcision.
---francis on 7/30/10\\

Wrong, francis.

Galatians is NOT just about the physical operation on males called circumcision.

It is used throughout the NT as a synonym the whole corpus of Jewish practices and those who follow them.

Look it up for yourself.

You're just trying to drag Christ's people under a yoke of bondage that could not be borne. Acts 15:10.

Quit tempting God.
---Cluny on 7/30/10


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What some people do not get about Galations is this:
No one, Jew or gentile was required to circumcize AFTER the death of Jesus.

If it were before the death of jesus both Jew and gentile would have been required to be circumcise in order to particpate in passover and other feasts.

Circumcision was a covenant of blood.
Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband [thou art], because of the circumcision.

All blood covenants stoped at the cross.
galation deal with circumcision.
---francis on 7/30/10


framcis - While Ephesians speaks of the Gentiles becoming part of the household of God with the Jews, that grafting was not into Judaism. The main division between the Gentiles and Judaism was the Jewish law.

Consider -

2:13-18 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: ...
---leej on 7/30/10


The book of Galatians is dedicated to this very subject.

Certain Christians were being taught that they must ALSO adhere to Jewish law to complete their salvation in Christ.

Paul says NO! If we do that we have made the cross of Christ of no effect for us.

We have fallen from grace!

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and died in our place (for our lawlessness).

If you try to enter heaven by trumping what He did for us, then your soul is in trouble!
---JackB on 7/30/10


Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God,

Romans 15:27 For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their SPIRITUAL things,
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

God did not plant a new tree called christian

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of ISRAEL and with the house of JUDAH:
---francis on 7/30/10


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There is no way that christianity can come out of " judism." There were pharesees, saducees, and christians all followers of judism with slightly different doctrines.

The books of Luke and Acts are both writen to show that christianity is in fact the logical progression of judism.

Some of the branches ( jews) were brocken off, and some of the wild olive branches ( believing none hebrews) were grafted in. Grafted into what? A covenant made with Judah and israel (can you get any nmore Jewish than that?)

The messiah is a jew
all 12 apostles were jews
the first 10,000 christians were jews and people who weer forst conmverted to judism.
The Teaching which the apostles used were Jewis ( what we call OT)
---francis on 7/29/10


\\Cluny//leej, you are not talking about what i mean by the Orthodox Christian church.

True as I use the dictionary definition.\\

Common dictionary definitions are not always the same as the meaning in a particular context, as when I said that the Orthodox Church is the Church the Roman Catholics (and eventually her Protestant children) split from.
---Cluny on 7/29/10


Cluny//leej, you are not talking about what i mean by the Orthodox Christian church.

True as I use the dictionary definition.

There are other denominations that have the term 'orthodox' in them. For instance, Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And the term 'orthodox' reflects what they view.

Much liken the term 'catholic' meaning universal. The Eastern Orthodox church considers itself 'catholic' does it not?
---leej on 7/29/10


Although Christianity came out from Judaism, it does not adhere to Judaism.
---micha9344 on 7/29/10

Came from Judaism? Explain please.

Christ=annointed. Christianity=annointed ones and or followers of the annointed "One".

Israel as a whole worshipped GOD,as found in scripture,until fornication split.

Judah, because of his 3 older brothers sins, inherited the rights of first born. Scepter passed through David, though to Yahshua.

Christianity progressed by the ones/sheep Yahshua came for and found, of the other nations of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

<>"judas". Interesting name.
---Trav on 7/29/10


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||How do we celebrate Pentecost? Because I don't know how and what is the third one?||

Pentecost has it's origin in the ordaining of the high priest. When Aron was ordained and made his sacrifice then the glory of God was given*

I think it wise that we remember pentecost, celebrate if you want, but remember who is the current high priest.
---francis on 7/29/10


\\Yes, we do celebrate, but in PAGAN ways. Easter and Passover is not the same. ||

Who's WE, Kemo Sabe? RESPONSE: WE as in Pentecostal Christians (Spirit-filled).\\

Members of the Orthodox Church do not celebrate Pascha in a pagan way.

But I see you are admitting that Pentecostals are at least partially paganized.

leej, you are not talking about what i mean by the Orthodox Christian church.
---Cluny on 7/29/10


Yes, we do celebrate, but in PAGAN ways. Easter and Passover is not the same. ||

Who's WE, Kemo Sabe? RESPONSE: WE as in Pentecostal Christians (Spirit-filled).

||How do we celebrate Pentecost? Because I don't know how and what is the third one?||

Pascha (or some phonetic variation of it) is the name most of the world gives for the day English-speaking Christians call Easter, from the Hebrew PESACH.
---Cluny on 7/28/10

Passover is for the Jewish folks as Easter is for the Gentile folks - thus Easter is a Pagan hoiday - so Cluny, your answer is incorrect (unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly).
---Donna5535 on 7/29/10


An orthodox christian is simply one who follows "the established or traditional rules of a political or religious belief, a philosophy, or a way of life." (Dictionary definition).

And I believe that person would be one that recognizes the Bible as being the very words of God as penned by the writers of the Bible as well as the traditional interpretations of the Bible.
---leej on 7/29/10


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Thanks Francis for proving that if you join a nation or religion you have to follow their laws. The same holds true everywhere, joining a club, country, or an event: you must agree to their terms. Although Christianity came out from Judaism, it does not adhere to Judaism. One only needs to discern the truths in the Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit to be able to understand.
---micha9344 on 7/29/10


Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


Acts 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, JEWS AND PROSELYTES

See that little word proselytes: those are people who were gentiles who converted to judism and were celebrating Pentecost.
They


none jews who wanted passover must first be circumcized

So the answer as given in the bible is that Gods laws are for ALL who wanted to covenant with him.
---Francis on 7/28/10


\\What exactly is an Orthodox Christian ....\\

Orthodoxy is the original Church that put the Bible together and is the one the Roman Catholics left in 1054. Protestants, including Pentecostals, left that, and never got back to the original Church.

||Yes, we do celebrate, but in PAGAN ways. Easter and Passover is not the same. ||

Who's WE, Kemo Sabe?

||How do we celebrate Pentecost? Because I don't know how and what is the third one?||

Pascha (or some phonetic variation of it) is the name most of the world gives for the day English-speaking Christians call Easter, from the Hebrew PESACH.
---Cluny on 7/28/10


\\HIS holidays which are Passover, Pentecost and there's one other one that He requires us to celebrate as Gentiles.\\

But Orthodox Christians DO celebrate Pascha and Pentecost!
---Cluny on 7/28/10

What exactly is an Orthodox Christian because I'm a Pentecostal (Spirit-filled) Christian and have never heard of an Orthodox Christian (unless you're referring to Catholicism which I grew up in the Catholic church and left).
Yes, we do celebrate, but in PAGAN ways. Easter and Passover is not the same. How do we celebrate Pentecost? Because I don't know how and what is the third one?
---Donna5535 on 7/28/10


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No. Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

Your question concerns the flesh that is incapable of worshiping God hence "must worship him in spirit and truth."

The law is good but incapable of liberty.
---larry on 7/28/10


\\HIS holidays which are Passover, Pentecost and there's one other one that He requires us to celebrate as Gentiles.\\

But Orthodox Christians DO celebrate Pascha and Pentecost!
---Cluny on 7/28/10


The TRUTH IS: God sits and waits each and every year for Gentile Christians to come and celebrate HIS holidays which are Passover, Pentecost and there's one other one that He requires us to celebrate as Gentiles.

In America we celebrate the pagan holidays and yes Christmas and Thanksgiving are pagan holidays. Why would God NOT want Gentiles to celebrate Passover when His SOn became the Passover Lamb for us Gentiles?

God waits for us (Gentlies) and no one ever shows up. Why would GOD change HIS holidays over to the United States Pagan Holidays such as Tksgiving and Christmas, Easter, etc., He wouldn't if He's the same YESTERDAY, today and tomorrow, amen?
---Donna5535 on 7/28/10


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