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Where Was Jesus After Death

Where was Jesus between the time of His crucifixion and His resurrection?

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 ---leej on 7/30/10
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Jack B, it's not Calvinism it's the real God of Scripture. You don't like that, you want to be in control, not God, so you fight God for your rights. You are no different then the Mormans or Jehovah Witnesses. You try to strip Deity of His Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omnipresence, if you could and all it does is proof that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" Rom. 8:7. The wicked do as naturally hate the Divine perfections as much as they are naturally compelled to acknowledge them. They wish there might be no Witness of their sins, no Searcher of their hearts, no judge of their deeds. They seek to banish God from their thoughts. They consider not in their hearts that He remembers all their wickedness (Hosea 7:2).
---MarkV. on 8/15/10


MarkV,

I eagerly await your answer to the question posed on the 14th.

"...take a look at Colossians 1:15 in the NIV. Now look at any Greek Lexicon and tell me if you find the Greek word for "other" in the text.

If it's not there, would you say that this insertion is based on grammar or theology?"
---scott on 8/15/10


Warwick- but it's your assumption Jesus is 'eternally pre-existent'. You highlight the chasm separating translators who are driven by doctrine and those who are driven by context and grammar.

You state for example, 'Jesus was not speaking of His age, but His identity.' How can you say this when in the previous verse the Jews ask Jesus how he could have seen Abraham when he wasn't yet 50yrs old! Of course his answer is about age! You're ignorant of context.

You're chasing false doctrines Warwick because you disregard context & grammar!

NWT is driven by context and grammar, as the Jo.8:58 KIT footnote shows. Jo.8:58 is a 'Historical Present', thus 'ego eimi' following the aorist infinitive clause is rendered 'I have been'.
---David8318 on 8/15/10


Luke 16:23,24 (the rich man)

And in hell (Hades) he lift up his eyes being in torments .... send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I am tormented in this flame

Acts 2:31

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ that his soul was not left in hell (Hades) neither his flesh did see corruption

Same place. Hades ! FIRE !! 3 Days!

Isaiah 53:6
...the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:9
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death
---JackB on 8/15/10


"John 9:8,9 'I am the man." Warwick

"I am the man?" Look again (at the Greek) the man said "ego eimi" or "I am."


"You would have us believe the healed man claimed to be Almighty God..." Warwick

This is a 'straw-man' argument fabricating a premise that was never suggested and then refuting it.

You are correct. The blind man was not God. But if somehow these words spoken by Christ identifies him with God at Ex 3:14, how do you explain that this man spoke the same words?
---scott on 8/15/10




leej,It's amazing how many fundamentalists lean so heavily on this parable (the RM & L)
to prove that you're still alive when you die!
1st it is not substantiated by any other bible writer! (2 or 3 are necessary for truth)
2nd Luke cites Jesus whom he never met!
3rd He was a Greek Gentile not an Apostle,who knows where this story came from??
This is proof???
---1st_cliff on 8/15/10


David, regarding John 8:58, I do have (and understand) the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) and notes in front of me! The notes are wrong as the starting assumption is false. The writers admit Jesus was preexistant (I have been) but not eternally preexistant-'I am' of Exodus 3:14. However Jesus was not speaking of His age, but His identity.

Therefore in John 8:58 the KIT interlinear 'ego eimi' should be rendered 'I am.' As proved 'ego eimi' is rendered 'I am' 18 times in the JW NWT-John 4:26, 6:35,48,51, 8:12,24,28,58, 10:7,11,14, 11:25, 14:6, 15:1,5, 18:5,6,8. Just what the JW KIT says. Therefore in John 8:58 'ego eimi' should be rendered 'I am' the eternally preexistant Almight God of Exodus 3:14.
---Warwick on 8/15/10


In the parable of the rich and Lazarus (Lk. 16:18f) -

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abrahams side. The rich man also died and was buried,and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Since Jesus ALWAYS used in His parables, real situations his audience could identify with in their beliefs, we can hold that there is existence after death - both the poor man and the rich man went somewhere after death.

Therefore the best answer is that Christ went to Paradise along with the other man on the cross.

It is irrelevant to the question where the comma is to be placed in 'today you will be with me in paradise' as both went to Paradise.
---leej on 8/14/10


Your destiney is written already -MarkV

See how you cannot stop from introducing Calvinism? Its your main focus.

Destiny? Fate?

Sounds a lot like Greek Mythology.
---JackB on 8/14/10


It seems that many people confuse three different words in the one term "hell".

The Hebrew SHEOL, or the Greek HADES (used by the LXX as the equivalent of SHEOL) is simply the abode of the dead in pre-Christian thought.

Ge-Hinnom, Hellenized as "Gehenna" is the place of eternal punishment.

Alas, all three words, meaning different things, have been conflated into the one English word "hell," which is not accurate.


\\If God demands blood for our sins and Christ took our sins upon himself, then He died the death we should have.\\

Does He?

If your questionable premise is false, then so is its conclusion.
---Cluny on 8/14/10




..In Hell just as scripture says He was. If God demands blood for our sins and Christ took our sins upon himself, then He died the death we should have.

The Bible says He was not LEFT in Hell, not that He never went there. He also preached to the spirits while He was there.
---JackB on 8/14/10


Scott, not only does Warwick fail to know how to use an 'interlinear', he likely doesn't have a copy of 'KIT'. If he does, he avoids the footnote at John 8:58.

Regarding Jo.8:58, many translators understand 'historical presents'. A historical present in the Greek in the midst of a context of the past tense is properly rendered in English as a past tense. For example, KJV applies a historical present at Mt.3:1.

John 8:58 examples a historical present as applied to 'ego eimi'. Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abrahams past- other translators agree (eg. Moffatt & Goodspeed).

Thus, 'prin Abra-am ge-ne-sthai ego eimi', is accurately rendered, 'Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.'
---David8318 on 8/14/10


Warwick & the KIT- David8318

Careful, you don't want to confuse anyone with the facts.
---scott on 8/14/10


Scott, I wasn't critical to you in the first place since I was talking to 1Cliff when you stuck you foot in our conversation. And after you made the remark that, I thought all evil came from the N.W.T., I answered and said it did not come from the N.W.T. but from sin. And that the N.W.T. is just a tool. The New World Translation was created by the followers of "The faithful and descreet slave" and all the leaders that came after him. A Bible that has been around for less then 60 years created by the Watchtower Society. Scott, you are more then welcome to use it. I never said you could not. Your destiney is written already. In one of two books. Not in the New World Translation.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10


"Don't expect you to acknowledge my posts..." 1stCliff

I don't recall ignoring any post(s) that you have addressed to me. Not intentionally. Strongaxe and I had a lengthy discussion about God's name. An 'argument' that he will no doubt recall that I won. (Kidding).

I would never be so presumptuous to question your life experience. I'm sorry for any pain that you have suffered.

The reason I've tried to avoid posting information about (for example) the criminal abuse and hypocrisy in my Baptist household and church is because prejudice undermines the credibility of an otherwise sound scriptural argument.

Even old Dr. Phil says "No matter how flat you make a pancake there are still two sides."
---scott on 8/14/10


Scott, it appears Warwick doesn't understand how an 'interlinear' translation works. The word 'interlinear' should be a give away really.

The 'Kingdom Interlinear Translation' (KIT) has the Greek as compiled by Westcott and Hort with a word-for-word translation, and on the righthand column the NWT.

In my exchange with Ernest on the other thread, I did point out that 'KIT' has a footnote at John 8:58 explaining why the NWT renders 'ego eimi' as 'I have been' and not 'I am'.

Footnote reads: "58. 'I have been'- (ego eimi) after the aorist infinitive clause 'prin Abra-am ge-ne-sthai' and hence properly rendered in the perfect tense. It is not the same as 'ho ohn', meaning 'The Being' or 'The I am' at Exodus 3:14, LXX."
---David8318 on 8/14/10


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"The New world translation is just another tool that comes because of sin." MarkV

My point exactly. You have attributed most of my comments on the trinity issue to the evil NWT when in fact I have rarely, if ever, cited it as a reference.

If you have a particular example of a NWT error I'd be happy to throw in my 2 cents.

In the meantime take a look at Colossians 1:15 in the NIV. Now look at any Greek Lexicon and tell me if you find the Greek word for "other" in the text.

If it's not there, would you say that this insertion is based on grammar or theology?
---scott on 8/14/10


Scott, John 9:8,9 Those who knew the healed man asked "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" There was disagreement but the healed man answered the question "I am the man."

You would have us believe the healed man claimed to be Almighty God, the 'I am' of Exodus 14:3! Ludicrous!

Did his listeners threaten to kill him for blasphemy as when Jesus said He was "I am"?

Did these listeners fall over when he said "I am" as they did when Jesus said this? (John 18:5)

Did this man say "I am the way and the truth and the life"?

Did He say "I give them eternal life" , as did Jesus?-John 10:28

No to all! But Jesus did!
---Warwick on 8/14/10


Scott, further to an unanswered question:

In the NWT 'ego eimi' (referring to Jesus) is rendered as 'I am' 18 times (John 4:26, 6:35,48,51, 8:12,24,28,58, 10:7,11,14, 11:25, 14:6, 15:1,5, 18:5,6,8). This follows exactly the JW New World Interlinear.

BUT, and it is a BIG BUT when also referring to Jesus the NWT goes against its own Interlinear in rendering "ego eimi" at John 8:58 as "I have been."

Why Scott?

Could it be that to render this "ego eimi" correctly and consistently as "I am" would clearly show that Jesus was the Almighty God, the "I am" of Exodus 3:14?

What do you say?
---Warwick on 8/14/10


Scott, Mark's OK, he's been influenced as a witness avoider like most mainstream denominations!
I understand everything you post (having been there done that) I don't expect you to acknowledge my posts,since "shunning" still happens!
"Oh no" my brother says, "we don't do that anymore", but you know what? they still avoid me like the plague!
When the bible says "Honor your mother and father" it doesn't say "Except"!
---1st_cliff on 8/14/10


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Scott, don't know why you would say what you did,
"Because you follow another scripture, the New World Translation." MarkV
I'm guessing MarkV believes that somehow all of the evils in the world are connected to the New World Translation."

Just so that you know the Truth the evil in the world is cause by sin. The New world translation is just another tool that comes because of sin. Those tools will keep coming out until God does away with sin. N.W.T, is a tool that makes an attempt to strip Christ of His Deity. So many have tried all through history. It's common and nothing new. From the apostolic times heretics have attempted to do that, but the only one's being deceived or those who are not of the Elect.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10


"Because you follow another scripture, the New World Translation." MarkV

I'm guessing MarkV believes that somehow all of the evils in the world are connected to the New World Translation. The translational boogie-man, lurking in every shadow, waiting to steal your babies and slap your grandmother.

If we could collect them all and relegate them to a 'funeral pyre' (clever Doors reference...you're welcome) then terrorism, poverty and deadly disease shall all magically disappear.

It's been a long week. Forgive my rant at MarkV's expense.
---scott on 8/13/10


Mark V, The NWT bible is just another reference,not a whole lot different than most,I mostly use the NIV I like a lot of their footnotes!
I have to admit I assumed the angels were deceived, else why would they follow satan?
I have no problem with the OT after all they are what both Jesus and Paul referred to as scripture!
Paul did not write 'till 50/60 CE and John 'till 98 CE!
Revelation was the last book accepted as inspired,but is not included in the Syrian Orthodox Church along with 2Peter,Jude and 2nd & 3rd John! Even today!
---1st_cliff on 8/10/10


1Cliff, I didn't mind answering your points. What I could not understand was why you would believe some and not other parts of Scripture and how you decide what is Truth and what is not, until I read what you said about the Kingdom Hall on another blog and probably is the reason you do not believe Scripture as written because you follow another scripture, the New World Translation. If they are right, then our Holy Bible is not. I believe too that you are a good person, but I do believe you are on the wrong path. I seldom discuss things of God with those who do not believe in Scripture because it is pointless. With you I did not mind. Concerning the angels, no where does it say they were deceived. In fact they just followed Satan.
---MarkV. on 8/10/10


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Mark V,I can see by your posts that you're a very caring person and I find no fault with your belief system except ,to me,your view seems a little "narrow"!
We live in a global village on a very large planet!
Actually I do believe scripture, the ones Jesus referred to, the OT. and the "eyewitnesses " who wrote about the earthly sojourn of Christ.
Not that it matters to any one,but I do not "fallow the crowd" (like lemmings)or believe something just because they "say so!" Paul is inspired, proof- He said so!
Where did satan get his angels if they were not deceived?
---1stcliff on 8/10/10


1Cliff, with your answer I can see you do not only have a problem with Paul, and do not believe what he says is inspired by God, you have trouble believing everything in Scripture really. You just said Paul to give one reason, but in reality you do not believe Scripture period. You do not try to find the Truth of what is written, you just don't feel like doing that since it is not of God.
You also said the angels were deceived, can you give reference where? And you said the Muslims claim that the Quran is inspired, and catholics their bible, and Mormans their book of Morman of course they are deceived. And of course it is my opinion. Could I give another? I am a man of faith in Christ. Why would I want to give another opinion?
---MarkV. on 8/9/10


Mark V, Why would Jesus make such a statement that "they could deceive even the elect,if that was possible" if it is not possible? and say "See I have told you ahead of time" (told you what?)
Angels have been deceived and they are a lot smarter than humans!
Are a billion Muslims "deceived"into believing that the Quran is inspired?
Millions of Catholics believe the Douay bible is inspired!
Jews believe the Talmud is inspired!
Are millions of Mormons deceived ,believing the Book of Mormon is inspired?
Do you know what they say?
They say "That's your OPINION"
And you know what?...they're right!
---1st_cliff on 8/9/10


mima: "If the dead sleep how do they speak?"

How does blood speak?

Gen 4:10 ... the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Didn't you know that the Bible contains metaphors?
---jerry6593 on 8/9/10


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1Cliff, it's a shame you believe as you do. You say it's up to "onus" to determine what is logical, which is true if you were talking about everyday life, but this is about the Word of God, which is revealed to us by the Spirit. I mean "us believers." "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" those are words of Paul, and since you do not believe in Paul then Scripture is not inspired by God. Although Scripture came to us from the pens of human author's, the ultimated source of Scripture is God. That is why the prophets could preface their word by saying, "Thus says the Lord" This is also why Jesus Himself could say, "Your Word is truth" And Scripture cannot be broken.
---MarkV. on 8/9/10


1Cliff 2: You also said,
"Why did Jesus say that "even the Elect" could be deceived?" Jesus never said that the Elect would be deceived. I think you should reread Scripture. Matthew 24:24 does not say it is possible to deceive the Elect. This passage clearly implies that such deception is not possible. Check (John 10:4,5) where it states,
"And when He brings out His own sheep, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him, for they know His voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him" This is not written by Paul, but from Matthew and John.
---MarkV. on 8/9/10


micha9344, Thanks for your snide remarks,too bad that you don't know that it actually was "mere men" that decided what you must accept as "inspired scripture"
History shows much contention when "deciding what was and was not" scripture!
Not "all" bible have the same number of books FYI! "You" have decided that "your" bible is the right one huh?
You and God have agreed on that ,right?
If you get head aches it may be that your halo is too tight!
---1st_cliff on 8/9/10


You might want to take Dr Luke's books out as well being a known associate and confidant of the Pharisee Saul.
Well, even Peter wrote that Paul's epistles were scripture, let's get his heretical books out of there also.
Oh, then there's that John Mark guy, believed to have written Mark's Gospel, can't have that in there, him receiving teaching from Paul and all.
I'm so glad you counted Hebrews as Paul's.
The contention of author wasn't fit to be there in the first place.
What do we have left? Matthew, Johnx5, James, and Jude--ehh that's good enough.
Anymore mere men want to decide what is scripture or shall we let the Holy Ghost work in and through us, revealing what is Truth?
---micha9344 on 8/7/10


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Mark V, The "onus" is upon each and every one of us to determine what is logical/reasonable.
You, like most others are dependent upon a "committee" to decide truth.
Much like politics ,in a way, you vote for the candidate you feel is best.
I cannot follow someone just because "every one else does" Democracy does not work in religion!
13 out of 27 (books of the NT)is a powerful influence.
Why did Jesus say that "even the Elect" could be deceived? Or satan appears as a "shining light"? Is there a brighter light than Paul??
OH NO it couldn't be him...could it? The soul IS mortal! Ez18.4
---1st_cliff on 8/7/10


My challenge is not against you personally but rather it is to cause you to think about the question I presented.
---mima on 8/7/10


1Cliff, thank you for your answer. What I find wrong with your thinking is that you, not the Holy Spirit, decides what is righteous in the word of God and what is not. In other words, you made the decision what should be counted as Truth and what should not. In deciding that, you not only replace the work of the Spirit, you would have to remove all the books written by Paul, and even those that speak of Paul. Almost all of the New Testament.
And by deciding what should be cannonize and what should not. You would be the standard of what is the measuring rod or rule for Christian living. Even the Church does not make that authentic which was otherwise doubtful or controverted, but acknowledges it as God's Truth. It recieves it as Truth.
---MarkV. on 8/7/10


Mima ... I don't know!

I wonder though why you did not also challenge ger.toshav, since he said the same thing in a different way?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/6/10


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---alan8566_of_uk if what you say is true about the death being asleep how do you account for the following verses from Revelation Chapter 6?

9-And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10-And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

If the dead sleep how do they speak?
---mima on 8/6/10


Mark V, Thanks for your response, but I find it "typical" of today's mainstream Christians.
I am not gullible enough to believe that all writing (called scripture) leather bound with "Holy Bible" stamped on the cover,is every word God breathed!(credulity)
Paul preached soul's immortality IE- "in the body" "out of the body," "absent from the body" etc.. which is NOT scriptural!
God would not use a writer who touted pagan doctrines! He became a follower of Jesus but just couldn't let go of this one belief! That's why he's popular today!
People WANT to believe this!
---1st_cliff on 8/6/10


The Teachings of Paul and the Old Testament agree in spite of those people who try to make a difference in them.

The problem is some misinterperete scripture to suit their wishes. GOD inspried one Bible. All as Paul teaches is for doctrine. The problem is not with Paul but with those who refuse to listen to Paul.

JESUS was asleep in the Grave until He was resurrected.
---Samuel on 8/6/10


1Cliff, concerning Acts 23:6, You need to read the whole context to know why Paul said what he did. You took one passage out of context and concluded what you did. If you began at the beginning of chapter 23 you will see to whom he was speaking to and why he said what he did. It has to be in the context of the chapter. I would have hoped that you had done that and not just judge what he said in one passage. Paul knew that because of Ananias (high priest) attitude he was not going to receive a fair hearing before the Sanhedrin. "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged" Sudducees and Pharisees were divided on the topic of the resurrection.
---MarkV. on 8/6/10


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1 Cliff, you said,
"Mark V, OK ,you carry on in your belief,that is after all, your prerogative.
From my many years of study i have come to the conclusion that what we have here are "Christians" and "Paulites"

If that is the opinion you get from many years of studying, you have understood little after all the years to come to a conclusion as you have, dividing writers of Scripture one against another. All the Gospels and Epistles are written by man inspired by God. Even the Words Jesus spoke were written by men inspired by God. If you just don't believe Scripture then nothing is of any value to you. Everything is your opinion, and no revelation from the Spirit, so no spiritual understanding.
---MarkV. on 8/5/10


Mark V, OK ,you carry on in your belief,that is after all, your prerogative.
From my many years of study i have come to the conclusion that what we have here are "Christians" and "Paulites"
Jesus' references to "scripture" is OT!
Paulites believe that Pauls writings are "inspired' and lean heavily on them for guidance. By his own confession he remained a Pharisee (Whom Jesus denounced) "I am a Pharisee,son of a Pharisee"Act.23.6.
Not used to be or once was but I AM!
Choose your leader, I've chosen mine ,Christ!
---1st_cliff on 8/5/10


1Cliff, you disagreed with me and I gave Scripture to you. You actually said that what Paul wrote was not true. Then you tell me to look it up in Scripture. Now how does that sound to you Cliff? Like someone that does not want to be wrong no matter what. Someone gives Scripture to you, he is wrong because Scripture is wrong, you give Scripture but never tells us what passage only for us to look up words in a concordance to prove Scripture is wrong. Such logic Cliff.
---MarkV. on 8/4/10


Jim, Can you tell me "who" had the authority to declare Paul's writings "inspired"?
History shows it was determined by consensus!
---1st_cliff on 8/5/10


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1Cliff, the word you are using is in relation to "Pneo". to blow, breathe, as in wind or air as in Matt. 7:25, 27, Luke 12:55, John 3:8, 6:18, Acts 27:40, Rev. 7:1).
But when use as "Pneuma," it refers the resurrection body (1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Peter 3:18. The word can also relate to the element in man by which he perceives, reflects feels, desires (Matt. 5:3, 26:41, Mark 2:8). It can also relate to the inward man, an expression used only of the believer (Romans 7:6, 2 Cor. 4:13). Sometimes "Pneuma" is used without the def. art and sometimes with it. We need to find out first if it is with or without before we can make a judgment. With you it was one way and that is it. Nothing else mattered.
---MarkV. on 8/5/10


MarkV, Everything I posted is gospel truth, as I said "look it up!",
Again I never say "take my word for it"
Strong's concordance defines spirit-(Heb=nephesh,Greek =pneuma*) as air, breath etc. When God "breathed" life onto Adam, it was exactly that "breath" when you die you cease breathing right? So saying "into your hands I commit my spirit" is giving back to God the "breath of life" for safe-keeping 'till He requires it for a resurrection, at which time he will breathe again! There are no Hollywood Ghosts!
* pneuma- pneumatic hammer is air driven!
*pneumonia-is a lung (breathing) condition!
---1st_cliff on 8/4/10


1 Cliff said:"Paul , brilliant writer but he erred in this statement!"

You see cliff....ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God.
Are you saying God erred when He had Paul pen it this way??
---JIM on 8/4/10


1 Cliff, You ask me for an answer and I give you Scripture, you in turn tell me that Scripture is false. That what you say is true and what Paul tells us, is false. In other words if I give you more answers, Scripture is false. It is only Truth when you say it is.
What did Jesus say on the Cross? "Father, into Thy hands I commit My ..what?" "commit My Spirit." You go from here to there, there is nothing else, there is no waiting place. Now that is the soul, that is the inner man, the spirit, The body goes into the grave and awaits the Day of the Lord to be rejoined to that spirit. Believe it or not. Who cares what the Pharisees thought. No answer to you would do, since you will say the writer is speaking false.
---MarkV. on 8/4/10


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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Tell me again what 'soul' is?
---micha9344 on 8/4/10


Mark V, If you have a good ,comprehensive bible dictionary , looking up "Pharisee" you will note that they ,as a group, believed in the immortality of the soul. A doctrine not supported in the bible.IE+ "soul" is mentioned over 800 times,not once does it say immortal, deathless or never dieing!
Paul was a Pharisee!
There's no such thing as being "absent from your body"
Paul , brilliant writer but he erred in this statement!
---1st_cliff on 8/4/10


1 Cliff, I kind of knew you would answer the way you did. Because you are not here to discuss godly matters but to bring a sword between a Christian and His faith in God's Word. I did answer you which I shouldn't have. I already have heard your answers to Warwick and others. But here is but one reason I believe what I do,
"Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"
---MarkV. on 8/3/10


Mark V, You obviously still believe the pagan idea that no one actually dies,just discard the body and keep on truckin" huh?
I'm going to tell you a little secret...When you die you stay dead 'till Christ resurrects you!(and it hasn't happened yet) Don't give me that nonsense that the "body" gets resurrected,'cause nowhere in scripture does it say "resurrection of the body" Jesus always said resurrection of the "dead" (person, not body) "The sea will give up the DEAD" (not body) Check it out! It's not your fault, you've been sold a bill of goods!
---1st_cliff on 8/3/10


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Jesus was in the grave for three days and two(2) nights.--Robyn on 8/3/10
Mat 27:57 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.-NASB (friday night?)
-saturday?
-saturday night?
John 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (sunday morning already risen before dawn?)
-1 day and 2 nights if you truly beleive what you believe, but:
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
---micha9344 on 8/3/10


If you read your bible, you will know. Read the Gospels.Anyone you choose. There are 4. In the New Testament. Jesus was in the grave for three days and two(2) nights. He rose on the third day. This is what we must believe in order to born again. You should know this! This is what we celebrate during Easter. Easter always fall on a Sunday. He went down into the grave on a Friday(Good Friday), Saturday and rose on Easter Sunday. Hallelujah! For Jesus! Easter is the Christians Independence Day. I will never forget what Jesus did for me. Praise God!
---Robyn on 8/3/10


1Cliff, "slick" you say. No, you just have to put things together with the whole of Scripture. We know that when a person is saved, he has been born of the Spirit. And when Christ said today you will be with me in paradise, it could not be his flesh body, it was going to go to the ground, or get burned or whatever they did with it, I was not there. To be there would have to be in Spirit.
---MarkV. on 8/3/10


This discussion about a comma stems from the fact that punctuation was not invented 'till the 14th century!
Time enough for the fundamentalist translators to add their little twist to make it fit their theology. Problem is it doesn't fit!
Mark V, My bible doesn't say "your "spirit" will be with me.."(that's being slick)
---1st_cliff on 8/2/10


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"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" said

God, the Son (me)

God, the Father (me) and

God, the Holy Spirit (me).

Three 'me's in Thee.

Godliness IS a mystery!
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


I think that what Jesus said to the thiefrelated to what the thief would actually experience.

If upon death, we fall "asleep" and eventually "wake up", we won't be conscious of the time when were are asleep.

So as far as the thief is concerned, it will seem to be the same day when he arrives in Paradise

How much more comforting of Jesus to put it like that, than to go into a long theological explanation that he would be dead in the grave, perhaps for aeons, and eventually arrive in Heaven.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/2/10


Another way to look is, there is no sense of time passing when you're dead. So the time between death and resurrection would seem very short. Just a thought....
---ger.toshav on 8/2/10


Mark V/Allen 8566 of Uk.
The coma was placed after the word TODAY, for the very purpose of eliminatng the confusion which arises when the , is placed after the word "you":
I tell you today, you will be in Paradise...
I tell you, today you will be in Paradise...
Considerng tat He told Mary that He had not gone to the Father two or three days after
he was resurected makes me wonder why the ,
was eccessary at all.
---Pierre on 8/2/10


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SPIRIT WENT TO HEAVEN
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

BODY IN THE GRAVE /TOMB
Mark 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Jesus was dead and buring like any other, except he did not rot

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
---francis on 8/2/10


It seems a teaching not found any where in the bible must be supported by the placment of one comma in the Bible.

Since no where does the Bible say the dead are alive and consious people who want to believe in an immortal soul try to say this comma proves that all the rest of what scripture says is wrong.

The placement of a single comma seems a bad basis for a doctrine that disagrees with the rest of scripture. Many modern Theologians are starting to accept this.
---Samuel on 8/2/10


1Cliff, you said,
"A dark tomb is hardly "paradise"! (you think?)" of course a dark tomb is hardly paradise, it hardly nothing to a dead corpse, a dead corpse feel nothing, but what was going to be with the Lord was his spirit, to wait for the Day of the Lord when the corruptable become incorrupt, when his body is glorified.
---MarkV. on 8/1/10


Mark/Alan,What better guarantee than to say "I swear by my dieing day" or "truly I tell you today!"
The thief knew Jesus only by reputation not as a disciple. He was ,after all a felon!
A dark tomb is hardly "paradise"! (you think?)
---1st_cliff on 8/1/10


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Mark ... Yes you are right. The thief would hardly have imagined that Jesus was talking to him on the previous day, or the next day.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/1/10


Pierre, why would Jesus have to say, "I tell you today,"
Was Jesus making sure that the thief understood that He was speaking to him at that moment? The addition of a coma after today is not necessary in that sentence unless for two reasons, One, because the thief might have thought that Jesus spoke to him the past before that day, or thought He spoke the next day, in which the theif would already be dead, and Two, because you want to make it fit your theology as to what you believe.
---MarkV. on 8/1/10


If Jesus died on the cross, then he was dead. People aren't anywhere when they are dead. They are just dead. Jesus came alive again when he was resurrected.
---ger.toshav on 7/31/10


"Where was Jesus between the time of His crucifixion and His resurrection?"
This question was answered by Jesus Himself.
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Mat 12:40
He was dead, and in the tomb, 'resurrected'-restored to life- on the third day.
---josef on 8/1/10


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"As for telling the thief he would be in Paradise with him, the comma should be placed"

Did God tell you this?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/1/10


Cluny, How come you believe that Jesus never died? That while he pretended to be dead for three days he was gallivanting around the universe?? Isn't this a sham?
---1st_cliff on 7/31/10


To Bill bila 5659 I would suggest that He decended "in the depth of the earth" resting in the tomb.
As for telling the thief he would be in Paradise with him, the comma should be placed after the word "today":
I tell you today, you will be in Paradise with me NOT
I tell you, today you will be in paradise with me.
---Pierre on 7/31/10


He went down into the hell which he created and he took back the keys from Satan which he created, and he proclaimed Salvation and released those bound souls that he created. Then he resurrected his body.
---Eloy on 7/31/10


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What of who is the Holy Spirit?
---scott on 7/30/10


Jesus was free from the mortal body.His revelation from his father through him was "finished".
He returned to heaven and took full possession,responsibility and full rights as a faithful,tested and trusted son of God in our universe.
---earl on 7/30/10


He rested in the tomb! He did not go to heaven or hell like some like to think!
---Pierre on 7/30/10


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